Document 467

Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 1 of 158 1 LBAAMAX1ps UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK -------------------------------x UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, v. 20-cr-330 (AJN) GHISLAINE MAXWELL, Defendant. Hearing -------------------------------x New York, N.Y. November 10, 2021 9:20 a.m. Before: HON. ALISON J. NATHAN District Judge APPEARANCES DAMIAN WILLIAMS United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York BY: MAURENE COMEY ALISON MOE LARA POMERANTZ ANDREW ROHRBACH Assistant United States Attorneys HADDON MORGAN AND FOREMAN Attorneys for Defendant BY: JEFFREY S. PAGLIUCA CHRISTIAN R. EVERDELL LAURA A. MENNINGER -and- Bobbi C. Sternheim Attorney for Defendant Also Present: Sarah Drescher Paralegal, U.S. Attorney's Office Camille Delgado Paralegal, Haddon Morgan and Foreman SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 2 of 158 2 LBAAMAX1ps (Case called) THE CLERK: Counsel, please state your name for the record, starting with the government. MS. POMERANTZ: Good morning, your Honor. Lara Pomerantz, Andrew Rohrbach, Alison Moe, and Maureen Comey for the government. THE COURT: Good morning. For the defendant. MS. STERNHEIM: Good morning, Judge. Bobbi C. Sternheim appearing with Ghislaine Maxwell at counsel table, along with Jeffery Pagliuca, Laura Menninger, Christian Everdell. And we're assisted by Camille Delgado. THE COURT: Good morning, everyone. Thank you. Please be seated. All right. We are here for a number of things. Let me just get myself organized. This is a pretrial conference. Our jury selection process began on November 4th with the questionnaires, trial to commence on November 29th. Today, we will address the defendant's motion under Federal Rule of Evidence 412, the defendant's motion in limine to exclude under Federal Rule of Evidence 702 and Daubert, and the other outstanding issues that overlap with these motions, as we discussed at our last conference on November 1st. Just for clarity, I explained this in my order SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007181 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 3 of 158 3 LBAAMAX1ps regarding public access yesterday: The 412 piece of these proceedings will be sealed, as is expressly required by Federal Rule of Evidence 412. That rule requires certain categories of evidence to be discussed at a sealed, in camera hearing. My plan is to hold that part of the hearing last, do what we need to do with respect to logistical issues and Daubert here first, and then seal the courtroom, having everyone who is a nonparticipant leave and shutting down the overflow access at that point, as required by law. Given this, I want to address a few logistical issues at the outset, and then we'll move into Daubert. I should say, to the extent we run into any overlap during the Daubert hearing on any 412 issues, we have arranged space to do the equivalent of a sealed sidebar in the jury room, I believe. But, again, we can bifurcate. OK. Before I turn to the logistical issues, any matters I should take up with what I have indicated, Ms. Pomerantz? MS. POMERANTZ: Not from the government. Thank you. THE COURT: Ms. Sternheim? MS. STERNHEIM: No. Thank you. THE COURT: OK. First, on logistics, as you know, counsel, we had a very successful return rate on the jury summons, and in the two days that the questionnaire has been filled out we had 565 prospective jurors fill it out. Given SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 4 of 158 4 LBAAMAX1ps that, my plan is to just do the morning session on Friday, which would give us about another hundred or so people filling out the questionnaire, which is what the target was in the 6 to 7 hundred range, presumably about 650 or so. And that will give additional time for the parties to confer after they have reviewed and a fewer number of questionnaires to review, given that we got there sooner. Any concerns with that, Ms. Pomerantz? MS. POMERANTZ: No. Thank you, your Honor. THE COURT: Ms. Sternheim? MS. STERNHEIM: No. THE COURT: Great. Thank you. I did previously set a tentative hearing for November 15th, which is Monday, at 9:30. So that's firm. We'll have that hearing, to the extent we need to, to go over any pre voir dire process resolution of disputed questionnaires and the like if we need to, and talk about that process more. I'll also use it to address any outstanding motions in limine if I can. In particular I think I will then have full briefing, and hopefully be able to address defense motion 1, on co-conspirator statements; defense motion 4, regarding alleged victim 3; and defense motion 7, on Exhibit 52. If I'm able to, I'll also address the government's motions regarding exclusion of at least some testimony of Dr. Loftus and Dr. Dietz. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007183 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 5 of 158 5 LBAAMAX1ps 1 And as I said, we'll discuss voir dire and take up questionnaire issues as needed. 2 So that's Monday, November 15th. 3 I would also like to just go ahead and schedule what 4 will be our final pretrial conference for November 23rd, is 5 what I propose, in the afternoon. I still need to work through 6 the logistics and space and timing on that, use that to clear 7 out any remaining issues or motions in advance of trial. 8 Ms. Pomerantz, how does that sound to the government? 9 MS. POMERANTZ: That all sounds fine. Thank you. 10 THE COURT: Ms. Sternheim? 11 MS. STERNHEIM: That sounds fine. I just have a 12 question with regard to the commencement -- 13 THE COURT: Could you pull up the mike. 14 MS. STERNHEIM: Oh. Sorry. 15 With regard to the commencement of voir dire, what 16 time will we begin on the 16th? 17 THE COURT: I believe 9, but I will confirm and see 18 what time I believe -- what time we think the jurors will 19 actually be ready to go, checked in and ready to go, and I'll 20 work backwards from that, give us time to get set up and 21 address any preliminary issues. So let's assume 9 and I'll 22 confer with the jury department. 23 MS. STERNHEIM: Thank you. 24 Just a moment. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007184 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 6 of 158 6 LBAAMAX1ps 1 Your Honor, Mr. Pagliuca has a hearing in Colorado. 2 Would it be permissible for him not to appear at the final 3 pretrial conference? Ms. Menninger, Mr. Everdell, and I will 4 be present. 5 THE COURT: That's fine with me. 6 MS. STERNHEIM: Thank you 7 THE COURT: And I do plan to put out a logistics order 8 after today that confirms the details of the conferences I've 9 just discussed and rooms and the like. 10 Do the parties have any other logistical matters or 11 questions to raise before we return to the motions? 12 MS. POMERANTZ: No, your Honor. 13 MS. STERNHEIM: No. Thank you. 14 THE COURT: OK. So we can proceed to the Daubert with 15 respect to the government's proposed expert. Ms. Pomerantz. 16 MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor. The government calls 17 Dr. Lisa Rocchio. 18 THE COURT: I didn't catch -- I have been saying row 19 "Rodocchio" in my head, but it sounds like that's not right. 20 Could you say the name again? 21 MS. POMERANTZ: It's "ROCK-ee-oh," your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Rocchio. 23 And I will ask everyone, please speak into the 24 microphones, because that's the only way we can all hear you. 25 Counsel can question from the podium and remove masks. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007185 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 7 of 158 7 LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio - Direct 1 And the witness can come into the witness box and remove her mask as well. 2 3 Dr. Rocchio may come forward. 4 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 5 LISA ROCCHIO, 6 called as a witness by the government, 7 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 8 THE COURT: And Dr. Rocchio, I know it's a little 9 awkward; to the extent you can speak directly into the 10 microphone, we can hear you. And I apologize if I have to 11 remind you of that as we go, because the acoustics are 12 challenging. 13 THE WITNESS: OK. 14 THE COURT: Thank you. 15 Ms. Pomerantz. 16 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: And, Ms. Pomerantz, you need that mike in 18 front of you. 19 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you. 20 Is this all right, your Honor? 21 THE COURT: Yes, but point it directly at you. 22 MS. POMERANTZ: OK. Thank you. 23 DIRECT EXAMINATION 24 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 25 Q. Good morning, Dr. Rocchio. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007186 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 8 of 158 8 LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio - Direct Dr. Rocchio, can you please describe your educational background. A. I have a master's degree and a doctoral degree in clinical psychology. THE COURT: I need you to speak up. Sorry. A. I have a master's degree and a doctoral degree in clinical psychology. THE COURT: Thank you. Q. And taking a step back, before your master's degree and your other, and your Ph.D., did you receive an undergraduate degree? A. I have a bachelor's degree with a dual major in psychology and English. Q. Where did you receive your master's from? A. The University of Rhode Island. Q. And you mentioned your Ph.D. Where did you receive that from? A. That was also from the University of Rhode Island. Q. What is clinical psychology? A. Clinical psychology is the study of human thoughts and behaviors, both abnormal and normal. We also study psychopathology, treatment methods. But it's generally the study of human behavior. Q. Can you describe your coursework and training in connection with your master's and Ph.D. degree. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007187 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 9 of 158 9 LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio - Direct 1 A. Sure. So in a doctoral program such as the one I attended, it's the scientist-practitioner model. So I took about three 2 to four years of coursework in a broad range of subject 3 matters, such as assessment and treatment, psychopathology, 4 ethics, professional practice, family systems, forensic 5 psychology, tests and measurements, things like that, as well 6 as specialty courses, electives, if you will, in areas of 7 particular interest to me, which would have included at the 8 time hostility and violence in the lives of women, psychology 9 of poverty, forensic psychology. 10 11 In addition to the structured coursework, we, during 12 the graduate period, took courses in methods of practice, saw 13 patients, and had clinical supervision, again in a variety of 14 types of treatment. So individual therapy, marital couple 15 therapy, for example. 16 Q. During the course of your graduate studies at the 17 University of Rhode Island, what if any topics in particular 18 did you focus on? 19 A. I focused in particular on areas related to social 20 psychology, traumatic stress, interpersonal violence, and 21 eating disorders. 22 Q. What is traumatic stress? 23 A. "Traumatic stress" refers to a stressor that overwhelms an 24 individual's person -- ability to cope. In the DSM-V it's 25 defined as a stressor that is severe enough, quite severe, and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007188 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 10 of 158 10 LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio - Direct involves witnessing or experiencing an event that involves actual or threatened harm, threatened death, or sex -- and/or sexual violence. Q. You also mentioned interpersonal violence. What is interpersonal violence? A. Violence that one person does to another person. It's a term in the field that refers to things such as rape and sexual assault, intimate-partner violence, sexual harassment, child sexual abuse. And although it's an umbrella term, using the term "interpersonal violence," it also refers to dynamics related to coercion and emotional abuse or child abuse that may not necessarily involve violence in a way that is commonly understood. Q. And what is forensic psychology? A. Forensic psychology is the application of the science of psychology to a particular legal matter, so using -- using psychology to answer or to assist a court in answering a legal question. Q. As part of your work in your connection with your master's and Ph.D. degrees, did you perform clinical work with patients? A. I did. Q. About how much time did you spend working with patients? A. So prior to doing -- while I was taking my coursework and taking the classes and treating patients, I would say a minimum of 500 to 1,000 hours of face-to-face clinical time, and then, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007189 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 11 of 158 11 LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio - Direct prior to receiving my degree, one of the requirements for my degree was a full-time one-year doctoral fellowship, which was roughly the equivalent of 1500 to 2,000 hours. Q. Approximately how many patients did you work with during your graduate studies? A. During my graduate studies, so that would have been over a period of about six years, hundreds. Q. What issues did you treat those patients for? A. A broad range. So issues related to eating disorders, grief, traumatic stress. I, during my internship, I also worked in both inpatient and partial hospital settings, so those individuals were dealing with sometimes major mental illness, issues pertaining to suicidality. A number of them had significant histories of traumatic stress and violence in their childhood and adult lives. Q. You mentioned a predoctoral fellowship. A. Yes. Q. Where did you do your predoctoral fellowship? A. At the Yale University School of Medicine. Q. During the course of your predoctoral fellowship at Yale, what kind of work did you do? A. I spent six months working at Yale New Haven Hospital in a partial hospital program treating adults who needed a high level of care and on an outpatient basis. Again, they presented with a wide range of issues. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007190 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 12 of 158 12 LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio - Direct 1 I then also spent another six months working at the 2 Yale Psychiatric Institute on an inpatient and partial hospital 3 unit, treating adolescents. In the course of that work, I also 4 had some specialized training in the area of forensic 5 psychology -- psychiatry. 6 Q. After you received your Ph.D., what did you do next in your 7 career? 8 A. I had a full-year equivalent of a postdoctoral fellowship. 9 During that year I worked in a partial hospital program. I 10 treated patients in an outpatient psychotherapy practice, and I 11 taught courses at the college level in psychology. 12 Q. Where did you do your postdoctoral fellowship? 13 A. It was in Rhode Island. I worked in a private practice 14 setting in Rhode Island, as well as Butler Hospital. 15 Specifically I worked in a partial hospital program that 16 utilized dialectical behavior therapy in the treatment of 17 women. 18 Q. What issues did you focus on during your postdoctoral 19 fellowship? 20 A. So dialectical behavior therapy is the primary issue that I 21 focused on, in terms of my training, and it's a treatment 22 method that has been found -- there's a lot of evidence; it was 23 developed and has been shown to be highly effective for a 24 chronically suicidal and self-injurious population of women. 25 It's since been generalized to a variety of populations. But SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007191 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 13 of 158 13 LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio - Direct that particular population is also known to have very high degrees of histories of childhood trauma of various kinds, including sexual abuse, neglect, physical abuse. Q. During your postdoctoral fellowship, did you perform clinical work? A. I did. Q. During your postdoctoral fellowship, what if any research groups did you participate? A. I participated in an eating-disorder research group at Butler Hospital. And then I also participated in an informal research group with a number of professionals from varying degrees. There was an attorney, there was a political science professor, and other practitioners, social worker, psychologist. And we would meet on a monthly basis to discuss issues relevant to the field of trauma psychology. Q. After your fellowship, what did you do next in your career? A. I founded an independent practice in psychology. Q. What is your role in that practice? A. I currently am -- I'm the owner. I am responsible for hiring both clinical and administrative staff, providing supervision, setting policies and procedures, and then of course treating patients. And within that setting I also maintain an independent forensic practice. Q. Approximately when did you start the practice? A. Upon becoming licensed, in -- just after becoming licensed, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007192 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 14 of 158 14 LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio - Direct so around January of 1998. Q. Do you supervise anyone in your practice? A. I supervise all of my employees, yes. Q. How many employees do you have? A. I have seven clinicians who are working for me at the present time. Q. What are your responsibilities for supervising those employees? A. Providing them with education about the patients that they're seeing. They are all independently licensed themselves, but to the extent that they're treating patients on -- where issues come up that are particularly complex or involve some level of risk, they come to me and talk to me. I provide clinical and professional guidance on how to manage that. I also lead a weekly team meeting in which we discuss cases and review, review, review patient care. Q. Can you briefly describe the work you do in connection with your practice. A. So, in terms of my clinical work, I treat individual adult patients currently, although I've treated adolescents in the past. The majority of my personal caseload are patients who have experienced some form of traumatic stress, largely interpersonal violence, but I also treat other forms of traumatic stress, such as first responders or individuals who SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007193 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-0030-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 15 of 158 15 LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio - Direct have been involved in motor vehicle accidents or traumatic loss, for example. And then I also have a smaller number of patients who are presenting due to issues in their life. They might be going through a transition. It might be a college student who's struggling to adapt, someone going through a divorce general life issues, anxiety, depression, coping with a health problem, that sort of thing. Q. You mentioned a forensic practice. In your forensic practice, what sort of work do you do? A. I provide expert consultation, psychological, forensic psychological evaluations, and expert witness testimony in civil and criminal cases, most typically where traumatic stress and/or interpersonal violence are somehow related to the matter at hand, although I've also done other types of forensic work. Q. How does your clinical -- excuse me -- your forensic practice compare to your clinical practice? A. My forensic practice is very different. As a clinician, I'm working with individuals in the clinical room providing evidence-based treatment for the problems that they're presenting to me and developing a relationship over time. As a forensic psychologist, I'm taking on more of an investigative role, and my work is to answer some particular psycho-legal question from an objective perspective, and it involves certainly never taking what someone has to say at face value but, rather, a fairly well-established process of multiple SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007194 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 16 of 158 16 LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio - Direct techniques to arrive at the -- my professional opinion. Q. What if any licenses do you have? A. I'm licensed to practice psychology currently in the states of Rhode Island, Massachusetts, and New York. Q. In your career, for approximately how many years -- THE COURT: Sorry. May I ask, Dr. Rocchio, that point you made about not taking what someone says at face value, you distinguish that as part of your forensic practice? THE WITNESS: Yes. THE COURT: And what about in your clinical practice? THE WITNESS: In my clinical practice, it's not -- I have to deal with what the patients tell me in the room. It's not my job to go out and verify any part of what's being told in the clinical room, but, rather, to hear what they're telling me and then relate that back to my other skills-training experience, the scientific literature. Someone, for example, might report to me symptoms of depression. I could ask them how that's manifesting in their life, but I don't go to their house to see if they're actually staying in bed all day. That kind of thing. THE COURT: Thank you. BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Dr. Rocchio, in your career, for approximately how many years have you treated and assessed patients? A. 30, maybe slightly more than 30 years at this point. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007195 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 17 of 158 17 LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio - Direct 1 Q. As a clinical psychologist, what issues or areas have you specialized in? 2 A. Earlier in my career, as I said, I specialized in the assessment and treatment of eating disorders, and throughout my career I've specialized in the area of traumatic stress and interpersonal violence. 3 Q. Since about when have you focused on traumatic stress and interpersonal violence? 4 A. Since graduate school. 5 Q. In the course of your career, have you treated and evaluated individuals who have experienced or reported experiencing childhood sexual abuse? 6 A. I have. 7 Q. What is childhood sexual abuse? 8 A. "Childhood sexual abuse" refers to a process by which a child is involved, engaged in sexual activity by an adult or sometimes by a peer who's generally three to five years older than them, but it involves engaging the child in sexual activity when they either do not consent or are unable to consent. 9 Q. And when you refer to "child," what are you referring to? 10 A. Under the age of 18. 11 Q. Approximately how many victims of childhood sexual abuse have you evaluated and treated in your career? 12 A. I've treated hundreds upon hundreds of individuals who have SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007196 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 18 of 158 18 LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio - Direct either reported to me that they've been sexually abused or have been referred to me after criminal proceedings have convicted a perpetrator. So those would be cases where it's been established that they've been abused. Q. During the course of your career, how old are the patients you've treated and evaluated who experienced childhood sexual abuse? A. I've treated, over the course of my career, individuals ages 13 and up. Q. And if this -- in your current practice, how old are the patients you treat? A. I'm currently working with individuals predominantly who are 18 and older. Q. In addition -- THE COURT: Sorry. What you're describing generally, is there a distinction to be made here in terms of your practice regarding childhood sexual abuse between your clinical side of your work and the forensic side? You're talking about your clinical work, I presume. THE WITNESS: I'm talking about my clinical work, but it is true that in both my clinical and forensic practice I have done a fair amount of work with adolescents as well as adults and that currently I am predominantly working in both settings with the evaluation of adults. THE COURT: OK. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007197 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 19 of 158 19 LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio - Direct BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. In addition to your group practice, do you work anywhere else? A. I do. Q. Where do you work? A. I'm on the voluntary faculty at Brown University, Alpert School of Medicine, in the department of psychiatry. Q. What is your title? A. I'm a clinical assistant professor. Q. How long have you been at the Alpert Medical School of Brown University? A. Since July 2020. Q. What are your current responsibilities in your employment there? A. I supervise psychiatry fellows in their efforts to learn how to conduct adult psychotherapy, and I also teach at some of the seminars that the psychiatry fellows attend. Q. What sorts of things do you teach on? A. When I'm asked to teach, I teach on areas related to traumatic stress and interpersonal violence. Q. Dr. Rocchio, I'd like to show you Government Exhibit 1. MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Durocher, can you pull that up. Q. Dr. Rocchio, what is that? A. My curriculum vitae. Q. Does it accurately describe your education and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007198 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 20 of 158 LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio - Direct 1 qualifications? 2 A. It does, although it doesn't reflect my recent promotion at 3 Brown from clinical instructor to clinical assistant professor. 4 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government would offer 5 Government Exhibit 1. 6 THE COURT: No objection? 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: No objection for purposes of this 8 hearing, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: OK. For the purposes of this hearing, 10 Government Exhibit 1 is admitted. Thank you. 11 (Government's Exhibit 1 received in evidence) 12 Q. Turning to page 4, what is listed there? 13 A. Publications and professional presentations. 14 Q. Can you summarize the subject of some of your published 15 work. 16 A. My published work generally deals in some way with 17 traumatic stress, ethics, and professional practice issues. So 18 a recent article was looking at the forensic assessment of 19 individuals who have experienced complex trauma, childhood 20 trauma, severe and repeated childhood trauma. I've also 21 written issues related to ethics as part of a public service 22 for education of junior members in the newsletter for the Rhode 23 Island Psychological Association. 24 Q. Have you had any public articles published in a 25 peer-reviewed journal? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007199 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 21 of 158 21 LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio - Direct 1 A. I have. 2 Q. What does it mean to be in a peer-reviewed journal generally? 3 A. So the peer-review process in my field involves generally people would either solicit or send -- either the journal would solicit requests for articles or people would submit articles to a journal for publication. The journal would -- editors would then take those articles and send them out to professionals in the field who have agreed to serve as reviewers, who have some sort of expertise related to the topic of the particular article. Generally in that process it's known as a blind review -- that is, the reviewers don't know who the author is, to help protect from bias. They then are asked to review and comment on the article, and then to make a recommendation regarding whether the article should be accepted, whether it should be -- whether the author should be asked to make either minor or major revisions to the article and then resubmit, or whether the article should be declined. 19 Q. You also mentioned professional presentations. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Have you given any professional presentations? 22 A. Yes, I have. 23 Q. Focusing on pages -- sorry. Just let me back up one moment. What is a professional presentation? 24 A. It's a presentation that is given at a professional SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007200 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 22 of 158 22 LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio - Direct conference, where I'm providing either information and knowledge in the course of a presentation or I'm conducting a workshop, either by myself or as part of a symposium, a panel of presenters, on a given topic. Q. Are your professional presentations peer reviewed? A. Yes, they are. Q. What does it mean for a professional presentation to be peer reviewed? A. So it's the same peer-review process or it's analogous to the process I described for publication. In other words, people will submit, I would submit a presentation. There's a call for proposals. I would provide a proposal of what it is I would like to present to the program coordinator. They typically would have a team of individuals who then review all of the submissions and rate them. And then they would select those that they feel are most relevant and worthy and professional to present. Q. Focus on page 7 of Government Exhibit 1, have any of your professional presentations focused on trauma psychology or interpersonal violence? A. The vast majority of them have, yes. Q. Then turning to pages 7 and 8, have you given any invited addresses? A. I have. Q. What are invited addresses? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007201 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 23 of 158 23 LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio - Direct 1 A. Those talks where, rather than my submitting to a peer-review process, individuals or organizations and institutions have requested that I give a presentation within my areas of expertise. 2 Q. Have any of your invited addresses focused on trauma psychology and interpersonal violence? 3 A. The vast majority, yes. 4 Q. You testified about the peer-review process. Have you ever served as a peer reviewer for publications? 5 A. Yes. I serve as a peer reviewer for several. 6 Q. What types of publications? 7 A. I'm on the editorial board for the journal for the Division of Trauma psychology, so it's a trauma psychology journal, and my role there is to conduct regular peer reviews for that journal. I also serve as a peer reviewer, kind of as a guest peer reviewer, for a variety of other journals, when it's related to my topic matter. So I believe I've done that for psychological injury and the law as well as the journal of professional practice, recent -- journal -- professional journal research and practice, for example. 8 Q. When did you start serving as a peer reviewer for publications? 9 A. I've served as a peer reviewer for either professional presentations or publications for much of my career. I'm not sure when I first started doing it for journals, but I know SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007202 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 24 of 158 24 LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio - Direct 1 I've been doing it for conferences from, you know, 20, 25 years minimally. 2 3 Q. Do you have any other involvement in professional publications? 4 5 A. I, apart from serving on the editorial board for the journal of trauma psychology, not at the moment, no. 6 7 Q. Do you hold -- 8 A. Oh, can I actually correct that answer? 9 Yes. Actually, the other thing is that for the publication I recently had, in addition to submitting articles for peer review, I was an invited guest editor in that particular edition -- special issue of that journal, so that meant that I had to, with my co-editor, solicit articles and then review them for publication. 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q. Do you belong to any professional organizations? 16 A. I do. 17 Q. Do you hold any leadership positions with those organizations? 18 19 A. I do. 20 Q. What are those leadership positions that you hold? 21 A. I'm currently the president-elect for the division of trauma psychology for the American Psychological Association. 22 I am also a member of the ethics committee for the American Psychological Association. I serve as a -- on the executive board of the Rhode Island Psychological Association, where I am 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007203 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 25 of 158 25 LBAAMAX1ps Rocchio - Direct their counsel representative to the National American Psychological Association. I believe those are my current leadership roles. I've held others in the past. Q. What do you do in your capacity as the president-elect of the division of trauma psychology? THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz, you've gotten a little quieter, so into the mike and speak up. MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor. Q. What do you do in your capacity as president-elect of the division of trauma psychology? A. So I was elected to the position. It's a three-year term. I serve as part of what's called the presidential trio, which consists of the past president, the current president, and the president-elect. So I'll begin my term as president next year. And then, during my presidential year, I'm responsible for planning the topic and organizing and -- the theme of the program -- our division's program at the annual conference for the American Psychological Association. I sit on the executive board. I work closely with the executive director, overseeing, managing things related to finance, policy, particular outstanding projects or projects that -- ad hoc projects that I wish to execute during my presidential year. (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007204 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 26 of 158 26 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. What is the division of trauma psychology? A. So the national organization for -- professional organization for psychology, within that organization, there are 56 separate divisions that each focus on a distinct area, specialized area of psychology. And I belong to a number of those divisions of psychology. Q. Have you served in a leadership position with other professional organizations? A. Yes, I have. Q. Can you briefly describe? A. I served on the Rhode Island psychological association. I've served on the committee for state leaders, which is an organization within the American psychological association dealing with various states and advocacy for issues related to psychology. Q. How do you keep up to date on the subjects in which you specialize? A. In a variety of ways. Certainly, I regularly review the scientific and legal literature. I attend programming. I consult with peers in my field. I attend trainings. And then of course, I bring that information back to my experience, both in clinical and forensic settings, and learn from my patients and the people that I evaluate in my experience. Q. In what areas have you received additional education and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007205 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 27 of 158 27 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct 1 training? 2 A. Various treatment methods specific to treating individuals 3 who have experienced various kinds of traumatic stress and 4 personal violence, childhood abuse, complex trauma, specialized 5 practice in forensic psychology, predominantly. 6 Q. What kinds of training have you received? 7 A. Attending numerous workshops conducted by reputable experts 8 in the field that typically have been vetted so that I can 9 receive continuing education credits and are required on an 10 annual basis for various forms of licensure. Also, there have 11 been some trainings that I have done online. For example, I 12 participate in a weekly webinar on issues relevant to the signs 13 and practice of forensic psychology that is conducted by 14 experts in the field. I think that covers it. 15 Q. In what way do you train others? 16 A. I have done a variety of things. So I have been on the 17 ethics committee for the psychological association and also on 18 the American psychological association. So part of what I do 19 is we have a call in opportunity for our members, and we 20 provide education about ethical issues to -- and consultation 21 to individuals who request that form of assistance. As I 22 mentioned, I'm a clinical supervisor for psychology fellows in 23 medical school at Brown University. I do provide consultation, 24 supervision to all of my employees. And there are also times 25 where others in the field may contact me on a professional SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 28 of 158 28 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct basis to consult with them on my area of expertise. A recent colleague who is a forensic psychologist, but not a forensic expert, contacted me to ask to teach her and talk with her about some of the traumatic stress issues that were involved in her case. Q. What types of training and presentations have you given in the area of childhood sexual abuse? A. I've given a number of trainings on complex trauma. And complex trauma refers to repeated abuse that occurs during childhood perpetrated generally by caregivers of the individual. I've also given -- so I've given trainings on -- for general clinicians -- on how to assess trauma and that may include assessing for a history of childhood sexual abuse. And I have given trainings, for example, at the Department of DCYF to investigators on how to manage the effects of being exposed to details related to traumatic stress in the course of their work. Those would be some examples of trainings I have done. Q. How do you keep up with the scientific literature in your field? A. So from my membership in a number of different divisions and, of course, international and national traumatic stress organizations, most of those journals have some combination -- most of those organizations have professional journals, in which they publish literature, scientific peer review literature, or they also have newsletters. They also have SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007207 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 29 of 158 29 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct listservs to provide communication, and then creating a healthy clinical picture as well. Q. Dr. Rocchio, have you testified in court before? A. I have. Q. How many times? A. Twice. Q. Were you qualified as an expert when you testified previously? A. I was. Q. On what subject were you qualified as an expert? A. I was qualified as an expert in psychology with a specialized expertise in traumatic stress and complex trauma. Q. Dr. Rocchio, I want to ask you about the specific opinions you have offered in this case. How are most instances of childhood sexual abuse committed? A. Majority are committed without the use of force. They're committed with the use of nonviolence, coercive and controlling tactics, but without the use of physical force and violence. Q. Are most instances of childhood sexual abuse committed by strangers or people known to children? A. They're generally committed by people known to the children in the context of a relationship between the perpetrator and the child. Q. Based on your experience, research and training, are you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007208 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 30 of 158 30 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct 1 familiar with the term grooming? 2 A. I am. 3 Q. What is grooming? 4 A. Grooming is a term that is used in the professional 5 literature and in the field to refer to a series of tactics and 6 strategies that are commonly experienced by victims and 7 utilized by offenders in the course of deceiving the child, 8 building a relationship of trust, and then eventually sexually 9 abusing the child. 10 Q. Can you please describe specific grooming strategies? 11 A. So various researchers have identified grooming strategies 12 involving a series of tactics that typically fit into several 13 stages. They typically involve strategies to identify a 14 victim, strategies to have access and to isolate the victim. 15 So for example, many offenders put themselves purposefully in 16 situations where they're going to have a great deal of access, 17 whether that's a boy scout troop or a school setting or that 18 type of thing, a coach. And then there are various coercive 19 and manipulative strategies that are utilized to develop a 20 relationship of trust, prosocial behaviors, things that might 21 be gift giving or letting the child know how special they are, 22 showering the child with affection. There's been some 23 comparison in the literature, a significant amount of 24 comparison to strategies that are basically akin to what two 25 adults might do in a courtship process. But basically the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007209 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 31 of 158 31 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct offender is trying to win over the trust and affection of the child. Then there's another stage where the child is gradually exposed to greater levels of physical touch and sexual content and material that slowly escalates over time, and then strategies that keep the relationship going and help to prevent exposure. Q. Based on your experience, research and training are you familiar with the term grooming the environment? A. I am. Q. What is grooming the environment? A. It's a term that applies to commonly recognized phenomenon and strategies, tactics, modus operandi used by perpetrators in the service of getting them access to victims and building that relationship of trust. So in addition to manipulating the child, they'll manipulate individuals or institutions in that child's life so that they're able to have greater access. So they might, for example, befriend a child's parent and hold themselves out as a trustworthy person who is going to help, say, a single mom and he'll serve as a father figure to the kid. Or they might groom an institution, they might work their way up through the boy scouts, for example, and become a leader there, become a pillar in the community to give them an air of respectability, disarming, gaining trust. Q. Are you familiar with the term attachment? A. I am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007210 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 32 of 158 32 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct 1 Q. What is that term? 2 A. Attachment basically refers to the relationship between one person, one individual and another. The original research was conducted looking at the attachment as a connection between an infant and a caregiver, her mother. But since has expanded into talking about the relational dynamics between either children and caregivers, children and family members or, for example, two intimate partners as adults. 9 Q. Can you please explain the relationship, if any, between attachment and grooming? 10 A. So when I talked about some of the strategies that are utilized, tactics, modus operandi in order to build that relationship within the context of childhood sexual abuse, the function and end result of that is to create a relationship or attachment and connection between the perpetrator and the child, whereby the child trusts and becomes dependent upon the perpetrator. 18 Q. Based on your experience, research and training are you familiar with the term coercive control? 19 A. I am. 21 Q. What is coercive control? 22 A. Coercive control refers to a strategic pattern of behavior that's designed to attain and maintain control in a relationship. So coercion means getting somebody to either do or not do something that they wouldn't ordinarily do otherwise. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007211 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 33 of 158 33 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct 1 And it is combined with control tactics like isolation or 2 building access to resources so that the power in the 3 relational dynamic lies with the person who is using coercive 4 control. 5 It was initially developed and conceptualized to help 6 understand part of intimate partner violent relationships, but 7 has since been found to exist in multiple forms of 8 victimization. 9 Q. You mentioned specific grooming strategies earlier. Can 10 you give examples or specific examples of specific grooming 11 strategies? 12 A. Gift giving, spending time alone, giving hugs, giving 13 massages that gradually escalate to disrobing or more overtly 14 sexualized behavior, talking about sex. Basically, normalizing 15 behaviors and then over time -- normalizing sexualized 16 behaviors and then over time moving that line of what's normal, 17 what's appropriate, what's happening within this relationship 18 closer and closer to sexual abuse. 19 But the strategies that are utilized for the building 20 of relationship are the same types of things that anyone might 21 do to build trust and attachment. Again, giving attention, 22 making the child feel special, gift giving, spending -- taking 23 them out to special places, purchasing things for them. Also 24 things that make them perhaps more dependent upon you. So if 25 you are offering to pay for things and this person is in need SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007212 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 34 of 158 34 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct of money, and if you are giving them something that will increase their dependency. Also the adult-child relationship, the power differential. THE COURT: The specific examples you are mentioning, are those found in the literature? THE WITNESS: They are. THE COURT: So you derive your views as to those specific examples from -- not from your clinical work or your forensic work or maybe both -- but the ones you have cited just now, you find in peer-reviewed literature? THE WITNESS: Yes. It's an interaction. So everything I'm talking about today is derived from my education and experience, as well as my knowledge of the literature. But yes, for many years, those specific tactics and strategies have been described in numerous peer-reviewed articles. And your Honor, if I may, it's also, I believe important to know that those are articles that have studied reports and behaviors that offenders talk about doing as well as things that victims have talked about experiencing. THE COURT: Thank you. BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Dr. Rocchio, you gave an example of gift giving, how can you tell if that is grooming or innocent behavior? A. As I said, it depends on the context in which the gift giving is happening. And you have to look at the entire SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007213 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 35 of 158 35 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct relationship. As I said, child sexual abuse is a process. It's not an isolated event. To the extent that gift giving is being done in the service of increasing someone's dependency on you for the purposes of increasing your ability to coerce and control them, ultimately, for sexual abuse, then that gift giving would be considered part of -- to be part of the grooming process. Q. How long has the concept of grooming been in the scientific literature? A. Grooming itself has been in the scientific literature at least since the 80s. But the scientific literature that has looked at the relational components of child sexual abuse and the ways in which victims become coerced into, quote, unquote, complying with sexual activity by an adult has been well established in the study of child sexual abuse for quite some time. Q. At a high level, what are your opinions on grooming based on? A. They're based on the interaction between my education, my training, the skills I have developed over time, certainly my ongoing review of the scientific literature and my practice. Q. In your education, how did you learn about the concept of grooming? A. So again, in my education part of how I learned that, it was from my study of the process of child sexual abuse and both SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007214 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 36 of 158 36 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct what that typically entails, not just the sexual components, but also the psychological and emotional components and their effects. And also, certainly, in my reviews of the literature and things that we talked about in graduate school and in other trainings, what sorts of behaviors offenders commonly use in order to engage children in that relationship. Q. In your clinical practice, have you treated and evaluated patients who have reported being groomed in connection with sexual abuse? A. I have. Although they don't typically use that word. As I said, most patients, including patients I treat, who have been abused as children, have had abuse happen in the context of a relationship. The abuse hasn't involved explicit force. So to the extent that they talk about the ways that they came to know, love and depend upon the perpetrator, yes, they talk and describe at length the types of behaviors that would meet the definition of grooming. Q. Approximately how many patients have you treated, evaluated who have reported behaviors consistent with grooming? A. I would say the vast majority of patients I have treated who have reported childhood sexual abuse, again, that would be hundreds upon hundreds. Q. What are the ages of the patients you have treated who have reported behaviors consistent with grooming? A. I have treated patients who are adolescents and patients SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007215 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 37 of 158 37 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct 1 who are adults. 2 Q. Are you aware of other psychologists treating and evaluating patients that reported behaviors consistent with grooming? 3 A. Absolutely. It's common in the field. 4 Q. How do you know that? 5 A. Through my review of the clinical research, it's something that's well documented in articles or books, chapters that have been written, for example, about how to provide treatment to patients. It's written in the literature around what sorts of symptoms might patients present with and why, what are some of the common difficulties. Of course, it's written in case studies. And then through my conversations with peers and, of course, trainings I have attended conducted by experts in the field. 6 Q. In your forensic practice, have you evaluated survivors of childhood sexual abuse? 7 A. I have. 8 Q. What does forensic evaluation of someone who has reported childhood sexual abuse entail? 9 A. So in general, a forensic evaluation is a multistep process. As I mentioned before, it's not just talking to someone. So a forensic evaluation, as I conduct it, involves first reading all of the relevant external collateral information relevant to the case. So if it's a criminal case, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007216 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 38 of 158 38 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct 1 that might be crime scene photos, autopsy photos, that might be transcripts of grand jury testimony, state police interviews. 2 3 In a civil case, I might also look at things like medical 4 records and psychotherapy records. So any and all documents 5 relevant to the case. 6 7 Then I typically do somewhere between eight and ten 8 hours of face-to-face evaluation, that involves both 9 psychological testing and clinical interviewing. I also 10 conduct collateral interviews with others who have information 11 that's relevant to the case and to the issues at hand. 12 13 And then I synthesize all of that information. And if 14 requested will prepare a report. Most cases don't end up going 15 to trial. But if they do and I'm asked to testify, I would 16 then testify in those cases. 17 18 Q. Do you evaluate issues of grooming in connection with your 19 forensic practice? 20 A. Yes, I have. 21 Q. Can you give me an example of a forensic evaluation that 22 has involved grooming-related issues? 23 A. Sure. So for example, in the civil arena where I am asked 24 to -- say somebody has alleged that they've been sexually 25 abused as a child or maybe we know that they have been sexually 26 abused as a child because the perpetrator has been criminally 27 convicted, I may be asked to assess, does this individual at 28 the present time have any current psychiatric difficulties or 29 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007217 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 39 of 158 39 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct impairments. And if so, to what degree, if any, are those attributable in whole or in part to the alleged sexual abuse. So as part of that assessment, I'm looking at the dynamics in the relationship between the individual and the perpetrator. And we know that the grooming behaviors that induce that relationship of trust and attachment have a significant negative affect on an individual's psyche and can strongly and negatively impact their functioning afterwards. So those are things I'm looking for. Q. Dr. Rocchio, to be clear, in your forensic work, do you assume that everything a victim reports is true? A. Absolutely not. Q. Can you explain that? A. My role in a forensic capacity is to provide an objective answer based upon my evaluation and my review of the literature. And it is not dependent on who is hiring me, for example. So as I mentioned, the reason that I look at all of these other documents and the reason I administer psychological tests and talk to third parties is precisely because I'm looking for consistencies and inconsistencies in what the individual is telling me in order to form an opinion. As part of my duty in that role is to investigate various hypotheses, in a forensic setting, it has to be that I'm not being told the truth. Q. To take a step back, to be clear, in your clinical work, do SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007218 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 40 of 158 40 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct you assume everything a victim reports is true? A. No, I do not. Q. Can you explain? A. So in a clinical setting, it is not my role to determine whether something is or is not true. Of course, when someone is telling me something, I'm using my skill and experience to take that information in and also to inquire, as I communicate to that individual and provide treatment. But as I mentioned earlier, I don't go out and try to see, well, this person is having trauma related to a motor vehicle accident or a shooting on the job, I don't go and ask them to provide me with newspaper articles to verify whether that event happened. Q. How do the grooming that you have seen in your forensic practice compare to what you have seen in your clinical practice? A. There's remarkable consistency in what I see in my work over time in my forensic practice, my clinical practice and what I have been trained and what's in the literature. Q. Can you describe at a high level the scientific literature upon which your opinions on grooming are based? A. So there have been a number of studies over time that have looked at the tactics, modus operandi, skill, manipulative techniques that have been used by perpetrators. And those studies have been published in peer-review journals. So there are studies that have done interviews with offenders, who have SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007219 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 41 of 158 41 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct been convicted and who admit to their crimes, asking them what sorts of techniques they utilized in order to perpetuate the sexual abuse. There have been studies that have been done with victims, in terms of asking them what sorts of experiences they had. There have also been studies that have been conducted with professionals in various fields; law and human services and psychology about the types of tactics and strategies that have been used. Q. How do the results of those studies compare? A. There's remarkable consistency. And even though definitions may vary in studies, as they always do, there are common -- a clear set of common strategies, techniques and behaviors that have been identified in the literature across time and across various samples. Q. When you review articles about grooming, what sorts of things are you looking for to determine the quality of articles you are relying on? A. I'm looking at whether or not it's in a peer review journal. I'm looking at how a particular study was conducted. So for example, if they're doing content analysis of an interview, are they making sure that ways that that interview has been coded by multiple individuals to get some sort of consistency there. I'm looking at how they chose the sample size. I'm looking at if it's a review that summarizes the state of the literature, is the literature review SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007220 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 42 of 158 42 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct comprehensive. I might go back to some of the original sources cited in the reference list, for example, and look at those articles to see if in the article I'm reading, when they describe article X, when I read article X, is that actually what article X is saying. Also, there are researchers who have come to be known in a particular field, so I might look at who the authors are and where the research is being conducted. Q. Beyond what you have already described, can you give any examples of how studies are conducted? A. They're conducted in a variety of ways. So for example -- I think I may have already described it -- but there are a variety of ways people might interview offenders and ask them what they do, what strategies and tactics they use. There might be studies that look at victims reporting what their experiences are. Or there might be studies where you're looking at treatment of victims and what are some of the issues that patients are bringing to treatment that need to be addressed, so the strategies that they experienced might come out that way. Certainly, studies have been done interviewing various experts, asking them what are strategies. And then looking for what are the strategies that experts from a variety of different fields agree upon, to a degree of certainty, and what do these professionals agree are part of what they see. Q. Do studies use the same or different definitions of grooming? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007221 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 43 of 158 43 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct 1 A. So the definitions can vary. They're all generally referring to the same process. But the specific definition may vary in different studies. So you have to be sure that the literature, when reviewing it, you have to understand what definition they're using. 6 Q. How can you rely on the empirical studies when there is variance across the different definitions of grooming used in those studies? 9 A. To the extent they're talking about the same kind of process in the context of childhood sexual abuse. And again, grooming, not only may there be variances in definition of grooming, but the same patterns and behavior are sometimes referred to by different names. But what you really want to look for are the commonalities. So for example, are what offenders tell us they do, does that -- to what degree of overlap is there between that and what victims tell us that they have experienced. When professionals talk about the kinds of behaviors, how much overlap and agreement is there between professionals, say, in similar fields, but also in different fields in characterizing these common phenomenon, the common phenomenon. 22 Q. Do studies look at samples of substantiated cases of abuse? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What does that mean? 25 A. So some of the research has been done that has looked at SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007222 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 44 of 158 44 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct and interviewed individuals where the abuse has been known, either because the perpetrator has offended -- has admitted -- I apologize -- or has been found guilty. So that would be an example of a legally substantiated case. Other times, they find studies where it's been substantiated in other ways; there have been interviews done with children who presented in medical settings with gonorrhea and talking with them about sexual abuse or abuse with kids in real time. MS. POMERANTZ: Can you pull up Government Exhibit 2, please. Q. Dr. Rocchio, do you recognize this? A. I do. Q. What is it? A. It's an article about coercive control. Q. Who is the author? A. Jacquelynn Duron, Laura Johnson, Gretchen Hoge and Judy Postmus. MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, the government would offer Government Exhibit 2. THE COURT: Any objection? MR. PAGLIUCA: Not for purposes of this hearing, your Honor. THE COURT: Government Exhibit 2 is admitted for the hearing. (Government's Exhibit 2 received in evidence) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007223 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 45 of 158 45 BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Dr. Rocchio, to prepare for this hearing, did you provide the government with samples of literature? A. I did. Q. Is this one of the samples you provided? A. Yes. Q. Is this article peer-reviewed? A. Yes. Q. At a high level, can you describe this article? A. So what this article did, it reviewed information provided by a variety of professionals who had expertise, specifically in offender behavior and tactics that are utilized by offenders in sexual abuse, professionals from a variety of fields. And it asked them to talk about some of the tactics used in furthering the relationship and developing a dynamic of coercive control. What was significant in particular about this article is not only did they look at coercive control as it applies to childhood sexual abuse, but they also looked at how coercive control, patterns of behavior play out in multiple forms of victimization; trafficking, elder abuse or pimp and sex worker relationships, intimate partner violence, rape, sexual assault, that sort of thing. Q. Does this article talk about grooming? A. It does. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007224 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 46 of 158 46 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct 1 Q. Does this article use any particular sampling? 2 A. The sampling was of professionals from a variety of fields. 3 And it looked for content analysis and commonalities in what 4 these professionals reported were common behaviors and tactics 5 that were used across types of victimization. 6 Q. How, if at all, does that impact your assessment of the 7 study and article? 8 A. It impacts it significantly. Because what this article is 9 doing is not only is it replicating what has previously been 10 found about tactics that are used, it's extending that 11 literature and saying that these are common patterns of 12 behavior that are used in the service of coercive control in a 13 variety of types of victimization. So it's identifying a 14 common tactic that's used in a number of settings to gain and 15 maintain power and to coerce a victim into some form of 16 behavior. 17 THE COURT: Let me ask on that, one of the examples 18 you gave was the pimp and sex worker relationship. In some of 19 the literature and in the cases, trauma bonding is the phrase 20 that's used? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 THE COURT: What's your understanding of the 23 similarity, the overlap and prevalence of understanding of 24 these two concepts in the field? 25 THE WITNESS: In the field, there's significant -- so SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007225 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 47 of 158 47 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct trauma bonding is typically referring to a relationship of attachment and connection between the pimp and the sex worker. We know that the majority of sex workers are under some third-party control. And we know that the trauma bonding is often the means by which the pimp has coerced the sex worker to get them to do their bidding, similar to the kinds of techniques that traffickers might use. So there's a significant amount of overlap. And there has been actually some recent research -- this is one example -- but others have specifically looked at grooming as it applies to trafficking, for example. THE COURT: Thank you. BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Dr. Rocchio -- withdrawn. MS. POMERANTZ: Can we pull up Government Exhibit 3, please. BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Dr. Rocchio, do you recognize this? A. I do. Q. What is it? A. It's an article validating a model of child sexual abusers. Q. Who wrote this? A. Georgia Winters, Elizabeth Jeglic and Leah Kaylor. MS. POMERANTZ: The government offers Government Exhibit 3. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007226 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 48 of 158 48 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: No objection. 2 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 3 is admitted to the 3 hearing record. 4 (Government's Exhibit 3 received in evidence) 5 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 6 Q. Dr. Rocchio, is this one of the articles you provided to 7 the government? 8 A. It is. 9 Q. When was this article published? 10 A. 2020 or 2021. I can't read the date right now. I think it 11 was 2020. 12 Q. Is this article peer reviewed? 13 A. It is. 14 It was published in October 2020. Thanks. I don't 15 have my glasses on. 16 Q. What was the conclusion of this study? 17 A. So what these authors did is a two-part study. So the 18 first thing that they did is they did an extensive literature 19 review to look for commonalities in the literature about what 20 are the commonly described stages that a perpetrator engages in 21 and what are the behaviors that are associated with those 22 stages. So they did a very comprehensive literature review. 23 They identified a number of specific behavioral and observable 24 strategies that individuals have identified in the literature. 25 They then got a group of recognized individuals in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007227 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 49 of 158 49 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct various fields with a high level of expertise -- I believe there were about 18 professionals; 15 of them had doctoral degrees and they all had a significant number of publications having to do with offender behavior -- they did a scientific analysis, whereby they had the professionals rate the relevance of not only the stages of grooming to their understanding of tactics and strategies utilized by offenders, but also the specific developments of very specific behaviors. So they had each of those behaviors rated on a four point scale by all of the professionals. And then they conducted analysis to see which of the items for which there was a high level, statistically significant level of agreement between the professionals, as to which of these behaviors were relevant. And they then went back and they asked, of those behaviors, where was their agreement on which stages that these specific behaviors belonged to. So I think they were able, through that analysis, to get a statistically significant agreement about behaviors. I think they narrowed it down to about 43 specific behaviors in this particular model. Q. I want to direct your attention to Page 3. A. Okay. Q. What is this table? A. So this is a table that, if you can see, there are five stages of the model; the first being the victim selection, then SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007228 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 50 of 158 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct gaining access and isolation, trust development, desensitization, sexual contact and physical contact. And then beneath each stage level, there is a list of the behavioral and the observable and measurable behaviors where there was a high level of statistical significance in agreement among varying professionals as to the relevance both to the grooming process and to the stages. Q. I want to direct your attention to Page 4. What is this table? A. So these, as I mentioned, there was an original list of about 77 specific behaviors that have been found associated with grooming in the literature fairly consistently. These are the behaviors that were part of that original list, where perhaps there were more differences of opinion, but the level of agreement among the professionals in this particular study did not reach the level of statistical significance. Q. What is your takeaway from the study in the article? A. I think this is a study that has really done a good job of integrating what we know and pulling together the literature, and then putting it to an empirical test. There have been other ways to empirically understand and test what is referred to as grooming. I think this is another way that provides some validation of a proposed model of the ways in which grooming works. MS. POMERANTZ: You can pull that down. I'd like to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007229 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 51 of 158 51 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct 1 show Dr. Rocchio Exhibit 4. 2 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 3 Q. Do you recognize this? 4 A. I do. 5 Q. What is it? 6 A. It's an article on the construct of grooming in child sexual abuse that identifies both a summary of literature as well as some of the conceptual and measurement issues that were present at the time the article was written. 10 Q. Who wrote this article? 11 A. Natalie Bennett and William O'Donohue. 12 MS. POMERANTZ: The government offers Exhibit 4. 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: No objection. 14 THE COURT: Thank you. Government Exhibit 4 is 15 admitted into the hearing record. 16 (Government's Exhibit 4 received in evidence) 17 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 18 Q. Is this one of the articles that you provided the government? 19 A. It is. 20 Q. Why did you provide the government with this article? 21 A. I think that this article does a really good job of summarizing much of the previous literature that has been published and peer-reviewed sources about the grooming process. It identified some of the issues and varying definitions. It 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007230 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 52 of 158 52 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct provided data supporting that this is a process that is well known and well established in the literature, and then it pointed to directions that were needed for future work. It pointed to some of the concerns about definitions and things that -- suggestions, basically, for issues that needed to be addressed in future research. Q. Do you agree with all of the conclusions of this article? A. I do not. Q. I want to direct your attention to Page 959. And I want to zoom in on the paragraph above current definitions. It's about four lines down. It starts with "Furthermore." A. Okay. MS. POMERANTZ: We can highlight those next two sentences. Q. Dr. Rocchio, could you review the highlighted text. A. Okay. MS. POMERANTZ: And for purposes of the record, your Honor, I'm happy to read that. THE COURT: The sentence beginning with "Furthermore" and ending with "negatives." MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Dr. Rocchio, what is your reaction to this? A. I think it's incomplete and I disagree with the conclusion. Q. Can you explain? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007231 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 53 of 158 53 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct 1 A. Sure. I think that certain things -- some psychologists use clinical judgment on whether or not a perpetrator's 2 behaviors are considered grooming. But that certainly doesn't 3 at all reference the scientific literature to determine what is 4 and is not considered grooming. In addition, we also have data 5 that's been provided by offenders themselves. 6 7 In terms of reliability and validity of these 8 judgments, the validity in psychological science refers to the 9 degree to which you are measuring this particular thing, what 10 you think you're measuring. So for example, the degree to 11 which there is significant overlap between what victims say 12 they experience and what offenders say that they have done 13 provides us with a measure of validity. 14 15 The degree to which different groups of individuals, 16 whether that's groups of professionals or groups of victims 17 agree in studies what it is that -- the process, what kinds of 18 behaviors, what's been done to the victim, what kinds of 19 behaviors are associated with the grooming process, to the 20 extent those professionals agree, that's a measure of 21 reliability. Because you're getting different studies, 22 different groups, different samples where there's significant 23 overlap in what this dynamic and what this concept is. 24 MS. POMERANTZ: I want to turn to Page 974. 25 Q. I want you to focus on the section under conclusions and 26 the first two sentences, so "Currently." 27 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007232 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 54 of 158 54 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct THE COURT: Can you repeat that, please. MS. POMERANTZ: The first two sentences of that paragraph starting with "currently" and ending with "has occurred or is occurring." THE COURT: Thank you. BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Dr. Rocchio, what is your response to those two sentences? A. Again, I think that I would not agree with those conclusions. I also think it's important to recognize that this article was published many years ago. And there's certainly been evolutions and additional literature since the time of publication. But even at the time of publication, I think it's a little misleading. If they're defining consensus there as universal agreement as to exact -- everything within the process of grooming, then sure. But when we're talking about any pattern of behavior or any phenomenon within the social science, it's a complicated phenomenon. You're never going to get universal agreement among experts. That's why you have to look at what's the particular definition used within a study. But most definitely, there's consensus within the scientific literature about the phenomenon not only of grooming, but the phenomenon of child sexual abuse itself, what the experiences are of the victim and what the behaviors are of the offender and also the impact of those behaviors, in terms SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007233 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 55 of 158 55 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct of how it affects an individual. So if we know that it's a relationship of trust, for example, that typically results in feelings of shame on the part of the victim, obviously, we had to study how that trust was built up and how that relationship developed over time. That's well established. And there's consensus that that is a significant part of the dynamics of child sexual abuse. Q. I want to turn to the next two sentences starting with "The field possesses" and going through "does not meet some of the criteria in the Daubert standard." A. Okay. Q. Do you see that, Dr. Rocchio? A. Mm-hmm. Q. What is your reaction to the statement that grooming is not a construct that ought to be used in forensic settings? A. As I indicated, I think that it is absolutely part and parcel of a forensic evaluation to look at what are the behaviors, what is their impact and what was their function. So I think that to the extent that we have the ability in a forensic setting, in particular, to look for corroboration, to look for consistency among different data points, between what you are being told by an individual, between what other people have observed, for example, what people are reporting on measures and tests, what individuals have told in a contemporaneous setting. I think there are a lot of ways you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007234 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 56 of 158 56 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct can get consistency. And it's a concept that is frequently referred to in forensic studies. Q. Do more recent articles respond to some of the concerns raised by this Bennett and O'Donohue article? A. They do. Q. Can you please explain? A. The article we looked at earlier by Winters attempted specifically to address some concerns. So she attempted to validate the grooming model. And she very specifically wanted to see, okay, of course there's not going to be universal agreement on every single behavior, but she did a statistical study to find out specifically what behaviors do the professionals and the experts agree upon. And again, remembering that all of the behaviors -- even the ones that, in that particular study, didn't meet the statistical significance in that study, all of those behaviors were behaviors that have been commonly referred to and described in the literature. Q. Dr. Rocchio, how do error rates factor into this literature? A. So I think when we talk about error rates within the field of psychology, the kind of gold standard is when you have a particular technique or a drug and you ideally would randomly assign people, one who receives the drug, one who doesn't receive the drug, and I would kind of compare whether -- how effective it is. For obvious reasons, you can't assign some SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007235 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 57 of 158 57 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct people as sexually abused and others not. So you have to look for other ways to assess acceptability within the scientific literature; peer review and general thoughts about concepts. And so that's where you look at the reliability as in what do the experts consistently agree to among themselves. You look at the degree of overlapping studies, perhaps studying it in different ways, but are they still coming up with the same clear description of the types of things that happen in the context of child sexual abuse. So for example, there was a content analysis done through interviews to pull out what some of those studies have found and to the degree that they're rated by multiple reviewers, and then compare the ratings of those reviewers, that's an indices of reliability. MS. POMERANTZ: I think we're done with Government Exhibit 4. Can we pull up Government Exhibit 5, please. Q. Dr. Rocchio, do you recognize this? A. I do. Q. What is it? A. It's an article describing the evolution of the word grooming and how it's been used, as well as the term seduction, to describe this commonly understood pattern of behavior and the strategies used by child perpetrators in the service of sexual exploitation and abuse. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007236 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 58 of 158 58 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct 1 Q. Who wrote this article? 2 A. Park Dietz. 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, we move to admit 4 Government Exhibit 5. 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: No objection. 6 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 5 is received. 7 (Government's Exhibit 5 received in evidence) 8 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 9 Q. Dr. Rocchio, did you provide the government with this article? 10 A. I did. 11 Q. Why did you provide the government with this article? 12 A. I was asked to provide examples to the government of 13 literature in the field that I thought might be helpful to the 14 court to understand the concepts that I'm talking about. This 15 does a really nice job of pointing to the part that the terms 16 grooming and seduction refer to a pattern of behavior that's 17 widely known and well established to be part of the dynamics of 18 sexual abuse. But in particular, I appreciated the author's 19 emphasis later on in the article of some of the problems with 20 the words seduction and some of the ways that much earlier 21 literature erroneously used terminology that could 22 inappropriately indicate a victim is blamed for the abuse that 23 they have been subjected to. 24 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Can you pull up Page 31, please. 26 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007237 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 59 of 158 59 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct Q. I wanted to direct your attention to the use of the term grooming, so in that top paragraph. If you could review the section of the article that starts with "If their use of the term grooming" and all the way to the end of that paragraph and let me know when you have had a chance to review it, please. A. Okay. Q. Dr. Rocchio, what is your response, reaction to this passage? A. It's a bit confusing as to the point that's being made. I feel like they're trying to -- the author here seems to be mixing different applications of the term that they use grooming, so it looks like in part he's talking about what is true in the literature, which is that we're not particularly good as a field of taking, frankly, many behaviors at all and predicting future behaviors. So he's saying accurately that we can't look at specific behaviors alone as predictors. And certainly, the use of the term grooming, again, is used to describe a process, a pattern of behaviors. I'm not here today to say that if somebody engages in any one of these particular behaviors, yes, we know you're a child abuser. So he's making that point. But I don't think anybody -- I don't think that -- if that's his point, I wouldn't disagree with that. Except that he's then going on -- I disagree where he says that grooming then can't involve behaviors that might in fact be prosocial or normal. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007238 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 60 of 158 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct 1 Again, we're talking about a use of a variety of strategies for the purpose of sexual abuse. So these are ways in which -- tactics, ways in which an offender might manipulate a child to developing a relationship of trust and attachment. 2 Obviously, one can develop a relationship of trust and attachment in a variety of contexts. But when we're talking about grooming, the specific context, is when there's been coercive control and some form of organization. 3 Q. Dr. Rocchio, taking a step back -- 4 MS. POMERANTZ: You can pull down Exhibit 5. 5 Q. -- how have some of the behaviors you have seen in grooming literature compare to behaviors you have seen in your forensic practice and your clinical practice? 6 A. Again, there's remarkable similarity in the impact of those behaviors. In my clinical practice victims talk about, I really trusted him, I thought he was a nice guy, he paid so much attention to me, he helped me out, he drove me places, he bought me sneakers when I didn't have any, he was the only person who cared about me. And that significantly -- in a clinical arena, that significantly impacts the individual's confusion and self-blame and often experiences of shame. 7 Similarly, in a forensic setting, it can often contribute to an increase in the kinds of damage and harm that I need to assess that have stemmed from an incident. 8 Q. In your view, is the concept of grooming generally accepted SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007239 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 61 of 158 61 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct within the scientific community? A. Yes, absolutely. Q. Based on your experience, research and training, are certain individuals at higher risk of being sexually abused as children? A. There are certain groups who are more vulnerable and there's a higher prevalence of child sexual abuse, yes. Q. What factors contribute to increased risk or higher vulnerabilities? A. So there are factors that have been studied and found in literature that have to do with the individual themselves. So for example, individuals who are particularly needy and vulnerable, individuals who have a prior history of victimization, you know, are at much higher risk of revictimization, individuals who are part of marginalized groups. For example, we know there's very high rates of sexual assault, childhood sexual abuse among especially minority children or among intellectually and cognitively disabled children. We know that individuals who come from certain types of family structures can be also at higher risk. For example, where there's only one parent, or children who come from home environments where there's abuse of other types going on in the home. So there might be other siblings who are being abused or the parents might be engaged -- one of the parents might be SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007240 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 62 of 158 LBAGmax2 Rocchio - Direct 1 abusing another parent or another child, so where there's other violence, those groups are also at higher risk. 2 3 There have been other studies that look at poverty as 4 a risk factor. So those are just examples of the types of 5 vulnerabilities that have been well established in the 6 literature. 7 (Continued on next page) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007241 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 63 of 158 63 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct 1 Q. At a high level, what are your opinions on which individuals are at higher risk of child sexual abuse based on? 2 3 A. My training and my education, certainly my clinical and forensic experience, as well as my review of the clinical and scientific literature. 4 5 Q. In your education and training, did you learn about the concept of certain groups being at higher risk of childhood sexual abuse? 6 7 A. Yes, because, again, in the phenomenon of child sexual abuse in general, not -- we're looking at vulnerability factors, i.e., who's more at risk. So to the extent that I was learning about ways that you might want to target prevention, for example, where you might want to make those interventions, 8 9 but then also, we know that an individual's prior vulnerabilities interact with their subsequent experiences of victimization and have a profound effect on the outcome, the adverse outcomes of the abuse itself. 10 11 So it was covered in a number of different ways through the course of my education and training. 12 13 Q. In your clinical practice, have you treat and evaluated patients who belong to higher-risk groups? 14 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Can you please explain. 18 19 A. In particular, we know that gender is a higher-risk group, and we know that women and girls are at higher risk for child 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007242 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 64 of 158 64 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct sexual abuse. So to the extent that more of my patients are women than men, certainly that's a vulnerability. But also, because, especially now, I'm working with adults, I'm working with people who have been repeatedly victimized at various points in time in their lives. And you can really clearly see the pattern, and it's something I often have to address with patients because they inquire about it, they don't understand. You know, why is it that this has happened to me so many times. And, again, we know from the revictimization literature that when someone is abused, they are at higher risk of being abused at later points in time. Also, you know, sometimes the clinical literature individuals will talk about the specific issues in their family that perhaps increase their vulnerability: They were always alone. They, you know, their mom was sick and this person had lots of opportunity to kind of befriend the family and, you know, therefore had greater access as a result of that vulnerability, or perhaps they were desperate for attention, care, love, and concern from another person because those are common childhood needs and maybe they weren't getting that at home. So those are all the kinds of things that would come up in, and have come up in, my over 30 years of treating patients. Q. In your forensic practice, do you examine the impact of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007243 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 65 of 158 65 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct prior vulnerabilities with respect to childhood sexual abuse? A. I do. Q. Can you explain. A. So, again, I'll use an example in the civil arena. If I'm asked, as part of my forensic evaluation, to opine about the impact of an alleged event, say childhood sexual abuse, and the degree to which a person's current difficulties are related to that event, I have to take prior vulnerability into account, because part of what I'm looking at is, how can I determine which of these persons' current difficulties are related to the sexual abuse or maybe related to other things that have happened in their past. So we know, because of the vulnerability literature, that if somebody is being abused in adolescence, it wouldn't be at all unusual for them also to have a history of earlier childhood sexual abuse. So I have to look at the interaction of those prior vulnerabilities and ways in which those prior vulnerabilities both may have made the individual more vulnerable to the grooming behavior and to the subsequent sexual abuse, and also ways in which those prior vulnerabilities may have interacted with the abuse to create more adverse outcomes for the individual I'm evaluating. Q. How does what you have observed in your forensic practice compare to your clinical practice with respect to individuals in higher-risk groups? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007244 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 66 of 158 66 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct 1 A. Again, it's highly, high consistent, in both my criminal and civil, civil practices. Even if I'm not -- even if the issues specific to the sexual abuse are not the issue at hand, certainly when I'm doing a comprehensive evaluation, I'm taking a history and people are describing their prior experiences, the kinds of experiences they talk about in the context of having experienced childhood sexual abuse, the relationship they've had with the perpetrator, the kinds of things that the perpetrator has done to kind of engage them into that relationship for the purposes of sexual abuse are very consistent. 12 Q. Is there empirical data to support your view that certain groups of children are at higher risk of being sexually abused? 13 A. There is. 14 Q. Can you explain? 15 A. Sure. When we're studying any phenomenon, I want to look at the prevalence, which is, you know, how often does this thing, in this case child sexual abuse, occur. We can never have a perfect understanding, because some people will deny, you know, not everybody will report. But to the degree that we can look at national samples and, you know, on average how often does this occur in a national sample and then how often -- what is the rate of occurrence in other subgroups, so, you know, is the rate of sexual abuse higher, for example, from a prevalence perspective, in some marginalized individuals. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007245 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 67 of 158 67 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct 1 When you look at who reports that they've been sexually abused, 2 is it reported more often by individuals who are members -- who 3 are women versus men. Is it reported, you know, more often or 4 found to have occurred more often, for example, in a group of 5 individuals who are cognitively or intellectually disabled. 6 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Durocher, can we pull up 7 Government Exhibit 3, please. Can we turn to page 3. 8 Q. Dr. Rocchio, we looked at this table before. Can you 9 please explain, what if anything does the table tell you about 10 particular vulnerabilities. 11 A. So the particular vulnerabilities in particular are most 12 relevant to the first stage of the grooming model, which is the 13 victim-selection model, in terms of looking at who are the 14 individuals that offenders choose to abuse or who end up 15 abusing. And, again, I think it's important to bear in mind 16 that this whole list was initially established from literature 17 looking at what offenders have told us they look for as well as 18 what kinds of prevalence rates have occurred in certain 19 populations. 20 And then these, in that top section of victim 21 selection, are the factors, vulnerability factors, that there 22 has been statistically significant agreement by professionals 23 factor into victim selection. 24 Q. And when you say "the top section," you're referring to 25 the -- what part of the table are you referring to? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007246 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 68 of 158 68 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct 1 A. I'm sorry. I'm referring to the list of behaviors specifically that are under the category entitled "Victim Selection." 2 Q. Thank you. 3 4 MS. POMERANTZ: Can we turn to page 4. 5 6 Q. And directing your attention to the table on page 4, what does this table show and how does that impact your view on vulnerabilities? 7 8 A. So this table shows, again, specific behaviors that there's widespread agreement in this particular group of professionals 9 that are relevant to a particular stage of the grooming process. And, again, these are also behaviors that have been 10 commonly and repeatedly found to exist in the scientific 11 literature as being associated with the grooming process. 12 13 Q. And how does the information on this table compare to the table we were just looking at? 14 15 A. There are similar types of behaviors that can be done in 16 the service of building a relationship of trust and attachment, 17 and in -- and have been found to be utilized by offenders. But 18 there was not as much agreement among the professionals that 19 these specific behaviors -- about the relevance of these 20 specific behaviors and/or the stage to which they were part of. 21 22 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you. Ms. Durocher, we can pull 23 that down. 24 25 Q. Dr. Rocchio, the defense has stated that your opinion that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007247 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 69 of 158 69 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct individuals with particular vulnerabilities are often targeted by sexual abuse is a commonly accepted bit of clinical lore derived from the frequent observation of highly vulnerable children among those children who allege sexual abuse, but it is not based on empirical data regarding the likelihood of abuse among children with varying degrees of vulnerability. What's your response to that? A. I believe that's a false statement. Q. Can you explain. A. As I just indicated, there are a variety of ways that we can look at whether or not individuals with particular vulnerabilities are targeted and/or at higher risk for being sexually abused. We can look at the prevalence data, the rates in which these behaviors occur. You can look at both allegations as well as crimes that are reported. You can look at what offenders tell us. There has been extensive interviewing that's been done and studies that have been done with offenders about what they look for. And, again, this would not just be offenders of childhood sexual abuse but, you know, there have been studies done with pimps, for example, on what they look for. So in a variety of forms of victimization. So there are multiple data sources that exist in addition to clinical experience that can substantiate this phenomenon. Q. How does what you've observed in your review of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007248 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 70 of 158 70 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct literature compare to your clinical practice and your forensic practice with respect to the question of individuals with particular vulnerabilities being at higher risk of childhood sexual abuse? A. It's highly consistent. Q. The defense has argued that a victim's prior sexual behavior is relevant to the concept of grooming. What's your reaction to that? A. In what way? I mean, I've talked about, certainly their experiences of victimization can make them more vulnerable, but I'm not sure what you mean. Q. Does whether a person, whether or not a person has had sexual experience, putting aside prior victimization, make them more or less vulnerable to being groomed? A. I'm not aware of any literature on that issue, nor do I even understand how that would theoretically make sense. To the extent that you're suggesting that somebody who has been sexually active in the past can or cannot be groomed, I'm not, even theoretically, I don't understand why that would be the case. But, no, certainly I don't believe that there is any literature that would support that statement. THE COURT: So to the extent you've seen in your practice and studies the impact of prior sexual conduct on the phenomenon of grooming, you understand it to potentially SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007249 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 71 of 158 71 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct increase the likelihood of grooming or susceptibility to grooming? Do I have that right? THE WITNESS: No. I'm sorry. What increases susceptibility to grooming would be prior victimization. I believe I'm being asked here now about consensual sexual activity. And I'm not aware of any known or studied relationship between consensual sexual activity and grooming. THE COURT: Right. So to the extent prior sexual conduct of any kind that you're aware of impacts grooming, it's that prior victim -- prior victimization, prior subjecting to sexual abuse increases the likelihood of one being susceptible to grooming tactics. THE WITNESS: Can increase the likelihood of being sexually abused later, not necessarily susceptibility to grooming per se, but we know that it increases the likelihood of subsequent victimization. We also know that one of the effects of victimization in and of itself can be an increase in risky behavior. And for adolescents in particular that risky behavior can often take the form of risky sexual behavior. So I think that, to the extent that there might be a relationship between sexual abuse and grooming and sexual behavior, it's actually the inverse of what you've talked about, which is, you might see a lot of high-risk sexual behavior being engaged in, in someone who has been previously SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007250 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 72 of 158 72 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct groomed and victimized. THE COURT: So given that there's a history of prior sexual abuse, would that be relevant -- is that relevant for you to understanding whether grooming occurred? THE WITNESS: Not necessarily, because when I'm looking at whether or not grooming occurred and when the literature is looking about whether or not grooming occurred, they're going to look at the specific circumstances associated with whatever it is you're looking at. It's relevant in that I know that prior victimization could increase vulnerability, but just because someone is -- THE COURT: Well, vulnerability to what? THE WITNESS: Vulnerability to subsequent sexual abuse. But just because somebody is more vulnerable, that can provide me with some information, but it's not going to factor into my specific conclusions around the facts, say, in a forensic setting if I'm being asked. Did grooming occur here. I'm going to take into account prior victimization and vulnerability. But that prior victimization and vulnerability isn't going to tell me whether or not it happened here. THE COURT: I guess I just want to understand that piece. The point you made about prior sexual abuse can lead to certain kinds of behaviors, is there anything in that analysis that would impact how one understands whether grooming tactics would be successful or whether the individual might be SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007251 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 73 of 158 73 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct 1 susceptible or not to grooming? 2 THE WITNESS: To the degree that someone is engaging 3 in risky sexual behavior, that could -- they could end up then 4 being in circumstances where they're more vulnerable to being 5 targeted by offenders. It could be in that way. 6 THE COURT: No other way that you can think of, or 7 have seen in the literature. 8 THE WITNESS: No, not that I'm aware of right now. 9 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 10 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 11 Q. Dr. Rocchio, the defense has referred to a theory of 12 grooming by proxy. Have you heard of that term in scientific 13 or clinical literature? 14 A. No, I have not. 15 Q. Is there anything about what you're testifying about here 16 today that says grooming can only be done for the benefit of 17 the person doing the grooming? 18 A. No, there's not. 19 Q. What is your opinion based on? 20 THE COURT: And just to clarify, the opinion, so that 21 we not have a fight about terminology, the opinion is that the 22 presence of another individual can facilitate the sexual abuse 23 of minors. Is that the opinion? 24 THE WITNESS: What, what I was asked was whether or 25 not there's anything that, in what I've testified about the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007252 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 74 of 158 74 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct tactics and strategies of the grooming process, that would preclude or require that those strategies be utilized for the sexual gratification of the person who's doing the grooming as opposed to a third party. And my answer to that question is no. THE COURT: OK. So you don't have an opinion on whether the presence -- let me just get the language -- the presence of a third -- of another individual can facilitate sexual abuse of minors. THE WITNESS: To the extent that we know that offenders do put themselves in situations where they're more likely to be viewed as trustworthy, surrounding themselves with individuals who a child or an intended victim might trust is going to increase the child's trust, perhaps. THE COURT: Is there any literature that you can point to that goes from that sort of broad statement about trustworthiness to the inclusion of a third individual in order to build that trust, any literature that you can point to that suggests that? THE WITNESS: The literature that just points to, more generally, perpetrators putting themselves in environments where they have a wider array of access or the grooming of institutions and other individuals for the purpose of getting greater access to the child. THE COURT: So, well, let me ask it this way. In your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007253 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 75 of 158 75 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct experience, what is the frequency with which -- not in the institutional setting, but in your experience, in which the presence of another individual helps create -- a single individual, helped create that trustworthiness that facilitated the abuse? THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of a particular study that would investigate that specific situation. THE COURT: Or any discussion of that phenomenon in the literature, specifically, not more broadly. THE WITNESS: Specifically the use of a single individual, unless you're talking about a co-offender. I mean, there is some literature, obviously, on co-offenders. There's literature that looks at, for example, in the pimping and trafficking literature, it's very common for individuals to engage in group activity. But specifically looking at child sexual abuse and the presence of a single other adult, I'm not aware of particular studies about that exact point. THE COURT: And how about in your clinical and forensic experience? THE WITNESS: Certainly in my clinical and forensic experience I have definitely seen that. THE COURT: With what frequency? THE WITNESS: A high degree, because oftentimes offenders surround themselves with other people. So I'm thinking of a foren -- a Boy Scout case I did, where in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007254 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 76 of 158 76 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct particular the person I was evaluating talked about how he thought that the person who eventually abused him was a really good guy because there was another older person involved in the troop, and they were best friends. And so he really thought this other guy was really cool, and that was how he, you know, came to kind of be introduced and involved in the relationship. There's a -- there was a -- in a clinical setting, I've certainly talked with individuals where, you know, I've talked about that part of, why they came to trust someone and initially started the relationship with them was because either they looked cool or they knew someone that they knew or they were introduced by a friend or a teacher. So in those settings certainly I've -- it's something that happens. THE COURT: Does it surprise you, then, there's no discussion in the literature of that specific phenomenon? THE WITNESS: I think that it's -- no, because I think what I'm talking about is specific ways in which individuals are kind of disarmed or come to trust others, so within the literature the phenomenon of what kinds of things, like -- can create an aura of trust and respectability, that is certainly discussed in the literature. But I think that the example you're asking me about is so highly specific, I think it would fall under the category of a number of things that are discussed, but I'm not aware of it having been discussed that specifically. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007255 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 77 of 158 77 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct THE COURT: So in a sense what the field, the scientific field tell us is that there are scenarios that help create an aura of trust and respectability, and then one could, using some common sense, figure out what specific examples might fall within that? THE WITNESS: Sure. Or there is literature to say, you know, where, for example, do we find that perpetrators access victims? And so we know that they end up in leadership roles in various kinds of child organizations -- counselors, schools, Boy Scouts, church. So -- THE COURT: But those phenomena are discussed in the literature. THE WITNESS: Those phenomena are discussed in the literature. THE COURT: OK. Thank you. Go ahead. MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you. Q. We've been talking about whether grooming only be done for the benefit of the person doing the grooming. What if anything in scientific literature addresses the concept of grooming not having to be done for the benefit of the person doing the grooming? A. So the article that we had spoken about earlier, looking at dynamics of coercive control, which refer to some of the strategies and dynamics that commonly occur in the context of grooming, we can see that coercive control, which are SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007256 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 78 of 158 78 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct describing the same kinds of strategies and tactics as grooming refers to, happens in a variety of other settings. So in the pimp-and-sex-worker relationship, we know, for example, that the grooming strategies are happening, and typically a pimp is working not for their own, necessarily, sexual gratification but to provide -- to procure and provide for the sexual gratification of another, for example. THE COURT: And that's how it's discussed in the field and in the literature, that, to the extent that trauma bonding has been studied in the pimp-sex worker context, it is plainly about, at least largely about, the coercive techniques being used to facilitate sexual conduct with a third party. THE WITNESS: Exactly. THE COURT: And, again, nothing like that in the grooming child sexual abuse context beyond sort of the institutional authority positions that you've discussed. THE WITNESS: There have been studies, though, that have looked at specifically comparing the behaviors associated with grooming for the purposes of sexual abuse and those being the same behaviors, techniques, and strategies as utilized by the pimps. So to the extent that what we're talking about are groups of behaviors, they're the same behaviors, so they're being -- you're describing behavior that doesn't depend on whose sexual gratification the behaviors are being done in service of. You're talking about principles of coercion and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007257 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 79 of 158 79 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct manipulation to get somebody to do anything that you want them to do, for your benefit or for someone else's. And that's what the scientific literature talks about, that the grooming is really a pattern of coercive control, manipulative behavior, strategies and techniques that are done to increase one's ability to coerce another. THE COURT: Thank you. MS. POMERANTZ: Dr. Rocchio, switching gears -- THE COURT: Let's actually break before we switch gears, to extend the metaphor. We'll take a ten-minute comfort break. MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. (Recess) THE COURT: All right, Ms. Pomerantz, you may proceed. And, Dr. Rocchio, you can take your mask off. THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Dr. Rocchio, does the relationship of trust and attachment between a victim and a perpetrator impact disclosure? A. Yes. Q. How so? A. In a couple ways. First, in a relationship of trust and attachment between a victim and a perpetrator, that can and has been established to cause a great deal of confusion on the part of the victim about what is and is not abusive. So to the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007258 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 80 of 158 80 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct extent that someone doesn't recognize that what's happening to them or doesn't cognitively label it as abuse, obviously that's not something that can be reported. But then of course the relationship itself also functions to make disclosure less likely, because either the individual has been made, in the course of the relationship, to feel somewhat responsible, they might feel shame, or they may blame themselves; or to the extent that they've come to care for the person who's harming them, they may be afraid of getting that individual in trouble; or to the extent that the relationship as a whole clearly has positive elements to it apart from and distinct from the abusive elements, they may -- it's fulfilling some need on the part of the victim, they may be fearful of losing those pieces. Q. Based on your experience, research, and training, are you familiar with delayed disclosure? A. I am. Q. What is delayed disclosure? A. "Delayed disclosure" is a term that's used in the literature to refer to telling about an experience of, well, in this case, sexual assault at some point after the event has occurred. Q. Does disclosure of childhood sexual abuse depend on the victim's age? A. So there have been a number of studies that have looked at SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007259 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 81 of 158 81 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct what are some of the predictors of delayed disclosure and to -- the studies that have been done that have looked at different age groups have found that those ages 12 to 18, that is, adolescents, are much more likely to have a delayed disclosure, as opposed to adults. So rates of disclosure kind of match up closer to the time of event as somebody ages. Q. And in terms of adolescents, can you explain how common disclosure is and why. A. So the rates of delays disclosure have been studied a lot in various populations. And so we know most of the studies show that the majority of victims of childhood sexual abuse who are abused during adolescence don't disclose until sometime later, typically in adulthood. And there are other factors that are associated with delayed disclosure in adolescents, but in terms of age that would be one. Q. Can you explain why disclosure of childhood sexual abuse is not common among adolescents? A. Part of it has to do with the developmental life stage of an adolescent individually. I mean, they -- we know that even if an adolescent does tell, for example, anyone, they're likely, most likely to tell a peer. Adolescents tend not to like to talk to adults. Also, adolescents often like to think of themselves as older and more competent. To the extent that they are involved in a sexually abusive relationship with an older person, they SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007260 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 82 of 158 82 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct may not believe that relationship to be abusive. They may believe that the two of them are in love. They may have been deliberately misled to believe that it is somehow a love, a love relationship. So they, they don't identify it or label it as abuse. Also, there's, as with any form of sexual abuse, sexual assault, in childhood or otherwise, there's a great deal of shame and stigma, and adolescents are, again, developmentally as a group notoriously sensitive to fear of being judged. And then finally, they don't want to get in trouble. They don't want their freedom restricted. There are, you know, studies that have been done talking to teenagers or adults about why they did or didn't disclose at various points in time, have identified all of these as factors, among others. Q. Based on your experience, research, and training, how do people who have experienced childhood sexual abuse talk about or disclose the abuse? A. So this is something that's really been studied in terms of the literature looking at how and why do people disclose or not disclose. And one of the consistent findings is that disclosure most often takes place to appear not -- for an adolescent to appear and for adults -- to friends, not to formal agencies. I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007261 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 83 of 158 83 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct 1 Q. Yes. The question was, when -- based on your experience, research, and training, how do people who have experienced childhood sexual abuse talk about or disclose the abuse? 2 A. Basically that is something that occurs in the context of a relationship, and the disclosure comes out kind of over time in the context of that relationship. 3 Q. What doctors contribute to how much a person discloses about the sexual abuse they experienced? 4 A. That will depend on the level of safety that they feel in the relationship. That will also depend on the response that they're getting from the person that they're making -- beginning to make the initial disclosure to. So, for example, research that's been done on barriers to disclosure, as well as research that's been done to train and teach people on how to respond when receiving the disclosure, has found, you know, things that imply any sort of blame, shame, minimization, or negative response will certainly shut down the process of disclosure quite -- and think, you know, to the extent that you're responding empathically to the extent that you're listening and attending to these, to the extent that that disclosure is happening in the context of a relationship of trust and safety, then the disclosure is more likely to evolve over time. 5 Q. How if at all does memory play a role in disclosure? 6 A. So when we're talking about child sexual abuse, when we're 7 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007262 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 84 of 158 84 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct talking about any event, there are general principles of memory, and those would apply to memory, general well-accepted principles of memory, that would apply to experiences of sexual abuse as well. So to the extent that we know everybody pays attention to and attaches significance to some aspects of an event more so than others, what a sexual abuse survivor discloses and the pieces of the story that they -- or their experiences, I'm sorry -- that they remember are going to be those things that were central details. They are going to have relatively good memory most of the time for the gist of the event and for the details that they attended to and were most significant to them. But their memory for peripheral details, we know, can fade away and weaken or change with time. Q. You just mentioned peripheral details. What do you mean by that? A. So in the memory literature, again, there is often a distinction made between what are considered to be central details and peripheral details. So the central details are subjectively defined as whatever it is an individual is paying attention to and attaching significance to at the time of an event. And those are the details that get encoded in memory and are then later available for retrieval at the time of recall. Q. Can you give an example. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007263 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 85 of 158 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct 1 A. Sure. If we're talking about child sexual abuse, someone may have attended to the -- and known full well that they were being sexually abused and they may have very clear memory of certain sounds, certain smells, breath, certain physical sensations. Alternatively, someone who is dissociating and trying very hard not -- to not think and not be attend to what's happening to them, they may have very vivid details of the swirls on the ceiling or the pattern on the wallpaper. 9 Q. Dr. Rocchio, how do the topics of memory that you just testified about fit into your expertise? 10 A. So as a psychologist, again, these general principles of memory are part of what I've been trained in throughout my career and, as a trauma psychologist in particular, certainly how individuals talk about their experiences, how they remember what's happened to them and what is typical, in terms of memory. Again, what are the general principles about memory is absolutely part of the literature and the research within the field of trauma psychology, as well as psychology generally, more broadly. 20 Q. In your education, did you learn about delayed disclosure? 21 A. We taught -- we learned certainly about how people tell their stories. And certainly when I was trained in assessment techniques, for example, in my training, and I was taught about how to ask about abuse experiences, I was also told, you know, be mindful that if someone answers your questions, this may be SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 86 of 158 86 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct 1 the first time they've ever talked about it. 2 Similarly, through trainings and readings and in my 3 graduate program, also being taught that when you make an assessment it's really important, when someone is talking about 5 their experiences, to inquire of them what their experiences 6 were like with disclosure, because that can be so impactful. 7 Q. In your clinical practice, have you treated and evaluated 8 patients who did not disclose sexual abuse they experienced as children but disclosed such abuse later? 9 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Can you explain. 12 A. I've, as I mentioned, when I do an assessment and I'm 13 talking with people about experiences of child sexual abuse, 14 one of the common and important questions I will ask is: and at 15 the time that this was happening or at some point later, did 16 you share your experiences with anyone; did you tell anyone. 17 And as I said, in terms of a -- in a clinical setting, that 18 information is very important. We know that the responses of 19 the person that they told have significant impact on the 20 adverse, potentially adverse outcomes. 21 Also, of course we know that if people don't tell, 22 then that also means they likely didn't get medical care or 23 assistance at the time of the event. And that also is highly 24 relevant. 25 So I see that a lot in my clinical practice. And SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007265 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 87 of 158 87 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct often I've had individuals who, as, you know, older adults, say to me, this is the first time I've ever told anyone, I've never told anyone that this happened. Q. How common is delayed disclosure in the patients you treat and evaluate in connection with your clinical practice? A. It's very common. The majority of the patients that I work with who've -- who've experienced childhood sexual abuse, like all victims of child sexual abuse, the abuses, a majority that has occur, most likely will occur in the context of a relationship. And we know that the closer the relationship between the victim and the perpetrator, the more delayed the disclosure is. So I would say that it's -- it's certainly not rare but it's not common necessarily that I am always the first person that the individual has told, but it's definitely more common than not that they did not tell someone at the time that it was occurring, that they told at some point significantly later in time. Q. When patients have disclosed that they experienced childhood sexual abuse to you for the first time, were your patients adults or children? A. I would say that when they're making an initial disclosure for the first time, they have been adults, although, when I was working in an inpatient setting at times I, I certainly worked with adolescents who had made disclosure while they were still SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007266 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 88 of 158 88 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct kids around the time, so not as much delayed. Q. Approximately what percentage of the patients you treated and assessed disclosed that they experienced childhood sexual abuse at the time of the abuse? A. A very, very small number. I, I can probably count on one hand the number of patients, in my private practice, who said that they told right away. With younger children in particular, we also know that it's more likely with very young children not so much that they're just going to spontaneously go to someone and tell them but that's it's going to be accidentally discovered or someone else finds out about it and then inquires, and that's how that information comes out. But, again, we know that most victims of childhood sexual abuse don't end up disclosing until some significant point in time after the event, and that's consistent with what I've experienced in my practice. Q. You just mentioned very young children. What are you referring to? A. We know that delayed disclosure happens over time. But we also know that the younger the child, the more likely it is that the disclosure or the discovery of the abuse happens accidentally. Q. Are you aware of other psychologists treating and evaluate patients who have delay disclosing childhood sexual abuse? A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007267 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 89 of 158 89 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct 1 Q. How? 2 A. Through the clinical literature, through the training. Again, if either I'm conducting training and I'm teaching others or I'm participating in the training that's talking about what are some of the common themes and issues and things that you need to deal with in a psychotherapy and clinical and assessment context, we'll often talk about disclosure, and in particular things like, we also know that so many individuals of child sexual abuse but also of rape and sexual assault of all kinds don't necessarily label their experiences as such. So when I'm teaching, or ways that I've been taught and trained is to use behavioral descriptors of what I'm asking about. So, for example, there have been numerous studies that say, you know, if you ask a group of individuals, say college students, have you ever had an experience where someone physically forced you to engage in sexual activity against your will, they'll, you know, a certain percentage of them will say yes. And then if you follow you and say, have you ever been raped, no. So you have to use behavioral descriptors, because people for a variety of reasons don't necessarily label their experiences as abuse. And that's also true with varying kinds of violence as well. Have you been abused, versus, have these behaviors happened to you. 24 Q. Is your clinical experience regarding disclosure consistent or inconsistent with that of other psychologists who treat and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007268 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 90 of 158 90 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct 1 evaluate patients who have delayed disclosing childhood sexual abuse? 2 3 A. It's consistent with my peers and reports that I've read in 4 the clinical literature, yes. 5 Q. In your forensic practice, have you dealt with 6 disclosure-related issues? 7 A. I have. 8 Q. Can you explain. 9 A. Disclosure-related issues in a forensic setting can come up 10 particularly, for example, when there are issues related to the 11 statute of limitations. So in a recent case, I was asked to 12 evaluate the time at which an individual reasonably came to be 13 aware of a connection between their present difficulties or 14 potential connection between their present difficulties and the 15 alleged abuse. And part of that case involved my looking at, 16 you know, were there any reports made about the abuse at the 17 time, because I'm working with an adult who's alleging 18 something during childhood, and if so to whom and under what 19 circumstances. And, you know, even if the reports weren't made 20 at the time of the abuse, for example, did this person talk 21 about their experiences with their therapist or when they were 22 hospitalized for substance abuse, what did they have to say. 23 So I'm looking at what they disclosed, how they 24 disclosed it. I'm obviously, in a forensic setting, comparing 25 that to what they're telling me now and with what the fact SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007269 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 91 of 158 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct pattern is from other data sources. Q. How common is it for you to consider disclosure-related issues in your forensic practice? A. Very. Q. How do the disclosure-related behaviors you've seen in your forensic practice compare to those you've seen in your clinical practice? A. Very similar. Very, very similar. Q. Are your opinions on disclosure based in part on your review of the scientific literature? A. Scientific and clinical literature, yes. Q. Can you describe at a high level the literature upon which your opinion is based? A. So there's different ways that the literature has looked at the issue of disclosure. I spoke earlier about prevalence rates where you're asking people, often in anonymous surveys but sometimes in interview settings, but in research studies, about a variety of experiences. And typically in those studies, you will ask -- people are asked about their experiences with rape, sexual assault, childhood sexual abuse. And so you can get some idea of what percentage of people in various studies across time report particular events in their lives. So you get an estimate of prevalence. You can compare that to look at disclosure in two different ways. You can look, for example, if you're talking SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007270 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 92 of 158 92 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct about disclosure to formal agencies, you can then compare that with uniform crime reports and look at the statistics for what rate, what percentage, what is the prevalence of these particular crimes being reported to -- through, through the legal system. Also, when you're doing the interviews, you can look at asking individuals: and did you disclose, and if so, to whom. So there are lots of different studies that can look at disclosure. There's also research that's been done looking at, again, how people tell and, you know, closer in time, not just with adults looking back retrospectively, but times when there's been -- someone has been known to have been abused, and there have been studies that have been done looking at, do they tell or not. I referred earlier to the study of very young children who had presented with sexually transmitted diseases, for example, who were later asked about their experiences, and you can look at, in real time, studies of what they say and to whom. THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz, let's move to the next opinion. BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Dr. Rocchio, does childhood sexual abuse create higher risks for victims? A. Yes, it does. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007271 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 93 of 158 93 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct 1 Q. Can you please explain. 2 A. So there's about been a lot of literature looking at what 3 are some of the adverse outcomes in populations of individuals 4 who have been sexually abused, among other adverse childhood 5 events. So there's really two primary bodies of literature. 6 One is the general well-established literature on adverse 7 childhood events that -- of which childhood sexual abuse is 8 one, that has documented that individuals who have had higher 9 numbers of adverse events that have occurred to them during 10 childhood are at much higher risk of a whole range of health 11 difficulties -- gastrointestinal difficulties, heart problems, 12 all kinds of health-related issues -- as well as psychological 13 and psychiatric difficulties, in particular depression, 14 anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder. So there's that body 15 of literature. 16 And then there have been numerous studies that have 17 looked more specifically at and narrowly at populations of 18 individuals who have been sexually abused or who have reported 19 to have been sexually abused. And then they have looked over 20 time and found that individuals who have reported histories of 21 childhood sexual abuse have both much higher frequencies of 22 various psychiatric illnesses and difficulties, as well as 23 higher severity of symptoms. 24 And then, thirdly, the post-traumatic stress disorder 25 literature has found that, when individuals have experienced a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 94 of 158 94 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Direct traumatic event, which is part of the criteria for later developing post-traumatic stress disorder, those who experienced childhood sexual abuse and sexual abuse generally, as compared to those who have experienced other types of traumatic events, are at higher risk for developing post-traumatic stress disorder. Q. Is there empirical data to support your views about the prevalence of adverse effects of childhood sexual abuse? A. Yes. There's a significant body of literature. Q. Can you explain briefly. A. Yes. The literature I just talked about, the adverse-childhood-events literature, as well as the scientific study of consequences and sequelae of childhood sexual abuse. Q. When you review articles and studies about the adverse effects of childhood sexual abuse, what sorts of things are you looking for to determine the quality of the studies and articles that you're relying on. A. Things like, is it appearing in a peer-reviewed journal, how large was the sample, have the findings been replicated over time, have they been replicated in various studies. You want to know, is this something that is generally accepted within the scientific community as well as within the profession. And to the extent that those concepts then are recurring in the literature and the studies are continuing to advance our understanding and knowledge and finding similar SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007273 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 95 of 158 95 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Cross kinds of things over time and across populations. THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz, I have what I need on this opinion, which I think is the last? MS. POMERANTZ: That's right, your Honor. If I may just have a moment to consult with my colleagues? THE COURT: You may. MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you. (Counsel confer) MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. Nothing further from the government. THE COURT: All right. Thank you. Mr. Pagliuca. MR. PAGLIUCA: May I inquire, your Honor? THE COURT: You may. MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PAGLIUCA: Q. Dr. Rocchio, I just want to start with some process here. I show that you met with the government 14 times in the last year or so. Is that correct? A. If you're including telephone contacts, perhaps. I'm not sure how many times we've spoken. Q. OK. Does that sound about right, 14? A. It could be. A number of those were around scheduling and things, so sure. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007274 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 96 of 158 96 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Cross 1 Q. OK. 2 A. I'm not sure, though. 3 Q. Have you reviewed any of the notes taken by the government during your interviews? 4 5 A. No, I have not. 6 Q. Did you take any notes during any of your interviews? 7 A. Only on topics that I wanted to go and pursue, like subject headings of areas that they wanted me to speak about and educate the Court about. 8 9 10 Q. And did you record those topics in some sort of file? 11 A. No, I did not. 12 Q. Do you have those notes? 13 A. No, I do not. 14 Q. What did you do with those notes? 15 A. At the time that we were talking, I wrote, like, "grooming" as a subject matter, and then when I went and researched the literature, I threw those notes away. 16 17 18 Q. OK. So is that your practice, to take notes and then throw them away? 19 20 A. It depends on the purpose of the note. If the note is just a reminder to me, there's no reason for me to keep it. 21 22 Q. And do you have a file in connection with your retention in this case? 23 24 A. I do. 25 Q. What do you have in your file? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007275 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 97 of 158 97 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Cross 1 A. I have a copy of the agreement, my agreement with the government, my engagement agreement. I have a copy of the time spent, the date and the time spent and what activity I engaged in. I have copies of various filings that the government has provided me with, relevant to this hearing today. Q. And did you review that file in anticipation of testifying here today? A. I can. MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I'm going to ask for production of that file at this point, please. THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz. MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I just have one moment, please? THE COURT: You may. (Counsel confer) MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government has produced the materials that were in the possession of the government, the notes that the government had taken in connection with its meetings and phone calls with Dr. Rocchio. That is what we are required to produce under the Jencks Act. And I would note, your Honor, that I just -- I don't have, in terms of what the defense counsel is requesting, as I noted, I would just -- it is about the Jencks Act, and we have produced the materials that are in the government's possession, including the notes, and have indicated what materials we SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007276 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 98 of 158 98 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Cross provided to Dr. Rocchio. MR. PAGLIUCA: Do you need a response from me, your Honor? THE COURT: Go ahead. MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, your Honor, I understand Jencks Act production, but this is a separate issue. She relied on this in preparation for her testimony today, and I believe that under Rule 16 I am allowed to examine whatever she relied on in anticipation and preparation for her testimony here today. This would be part of the bases for her opinion, your Honor. THE COURT: Well, I don't know if it is. Notes that have a subject heading "grooming," for example, that she threw away which are not in the file are not a bases for her opinion. So I don't know that the whole file is subject to that theory. The contract between her and the government is not a basis for opinion, but you've asked for that since she's included that in the file. MR. PAGLIUCA: I have that, your Honor. THE COURT: Right. But you see the point. MR. PAGLIUCA: I understand. But I don't know what is in her file, is my point. THE COURT: Right. Well, so then the question, I think, is: What is in your file that forms the basis for your opinion? That will get us to where we need to get. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007277 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 99 of 158 99 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Cross BY MR. PAGLIUCA: Q. What is it in your file that forms the basis of your opinion? A. There's nothing in my file that forms the basis of my opinion. What's in my file are, for example, the motion for today's hearing, a copy of the disclosure for some of the witnesses, a redacted copy of those sorts of things, but nothing from which I'm basing my opinion on today. Q. OK. You mentioned a contract. You're billing the government at a rate of $450 an hour. Is that correct? A. That is correct. Q. And your initial government contract is from $45,000. Is that right? A. Up to $45,000. Q. And how much have you been paid up to today? A. Nothing. Q. And so you need to complete your contract before you receive your $45,000; is that right? A. No. That's not my understanding. I need to prepare an invoice and provide it to the government. And I haven't had a chance to do that yet. Q. OK. And do you know what your final invoice will look like in terms of hours spent up till today? A. I don't at this point, no. Q. How many hours have you spent up till today? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007278 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 100 of 158 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Cross 1 A. I haven't tabulated them. I, I could make an estimate if you like, but I -- 2 Q. Sure. 3 A. -- don't know for sure. 4 About 25. 5 Q. 25 hours. 6 And do you keep time records of what you do? 7 A. I do. 8 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'd ask for production of those time 9 records, your Honor. 10 It doesn't have to be today. 11 THE COURT: On what grounds? 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, your Honor, it goes to the motive 13 and bias of the witness, as a financial gain through this 14 contract. 15 THE COURT: It's a perfectly acceptable question in 16 front of the jury. But what's your entitlement to the time 17 records? 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: So we know how much time she's spent on 19 this and what her anticipated compensation is. 20 THE COURT: I'm just asking, I mean, this sounds like 21 broad-reaching discovery. Under what rule or other authority 22 are you entitled to that? 23 MR. PAGLIUCA: I believe, your Honor, I'm entitled to 24 this under Brady and Giglio, because this is motive and bias 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007279 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 101 of 158 101 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Cross for testimony. THE COURT: You can submit authority on that. I mean, certainly appropriate grounds for cross. I'm not sure, absent some specific motion for discovery, that I've ever seen expert time records turned over. MR. PAGLIUCA: Understood, your Honor. BY MR. PAGLIUCA: Q. Dr. Rocchio, I'd like to talk to you about some of the terms that you've been using here today. The first one I want to ask you about is the definition of "child." Do you recall, when you discussed this case with the government on April 9th of this year, that you defined "child" for the government as someone under the age of consent? Do you recall that? A. I don't specifically recall that, no, I'm sorry. Q. Is that a definition of "child," someone under the age of consent? A. I would -- I would define "child" as someone under the age of 18. Q. Well, I'm looking at page 3 of the interview notes produced in connection with your interview on April 9, 2021. THE COURT: Do you have a 3500? MR. PAGLIUCA: I do, your Honor. I'm at page 3502-004. That's the beginning of this interview, April 9, 2021. And if we go to -- well, that's the page 3 of that interview. The top of the page. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 102 of 158 102 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Cross 1 Q. Did you recall discussing this with Ms. Comey, Ms. Moe, 2 Ms. Pomerantz, Mr. Rohrbach, and telling them that "child" is 3 anyone below the age of consent? Do you recall that? 4 A. I don't have anything on the screen in front of me, so I -- 5 I'm not sure what you're referring to. 6 Q. I'm just asking if you recall that at this point. 7 A. No. Sorry. I don't. 8 Q. OK. Do you have any reason to believe that any of those 9 AUSAs would take that down incorrectly? 10 A. I'm not sure of the context under which it was taken. I 11 think, you know, for -- I haven't reviewed it. I didn't have a 12 chance to correct it. I, I really have no idea. 13 Q. OK. Also, you used the term "sexual abuse," and that's 14 nonconsensual sexual touch. Is that correct? 15 A. That is one of the definitions, yes. It doesn't have to 16 be. 17 Q. Well, is that the definition that you gave the government 18 in April of 2021; do you recall? 19 A. I don't recall specifically what I said during the phone 20 call in April, no. 21 Q. Do you recall defining -- do you define "nonconsensual" 22 as -- when someone says no or the person is too intoxicated to 23 give consent or the person is below the age of consent, is that 24 a definition of "nonconsensual"? 25 A. Those are examples of "nonconsensual." It's not an SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007281 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 103 of 158 103 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Cross exhaustive definition. Q. OK. And when you say "below the age of consent," you haven't defined that. Correct? A. In, in what you're reading to me? Q. You know that the age of consent varies from state to state and country to country, correct? A. Correct. Q. And so when you're talking about "below the age of consent," you're talking about a -- MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. Overruled. Go ahead. MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. Q. When you're talking about "below the age of consent," you're talking about whatever the age is in the particular jurisdiction for someone to be able to consent to sexual contact, correct? A. As one example, yes. Q. OK. You also talked about "trauma," which I understand you define as "exposure by either directly experiencing or witnessing serious bodily injury, death, or sexual violation." Is that correct? A. "Sexual violence," I believe. That's the definition in the DSM-V, criterion of trauma. Q. And that's the definition you've been using here today in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007282 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 104 of 158 104 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Cross connection with your testimony, correct? A. It's one of the definitions I've been using here today in connection with my testimony, yes. Q. When you talk about "trauma," that's the definition you've been using, correct? A. Trauma is a continuum, so that is one of the definitions of "trauma," but other things have been found to be traumatic in individuals' experiences that do not necessarily rise to the level of criterion A in PTSD. For example, there's a whole 'nother section in the DSM called "Other Stressor and Trauma Disorders" that could refer to other traumatic events that don't fit that specific definition, but childhood sexual abuse is commonly understood to fall under the definition of "sexual violence." So to that degree, yes. Q. OK. You've described that you're a clinical psychologist, and that is someone who treats clients for presenting psychological issues, correct? A. That's part of what I do, yes. Q. Right. And the job of a clinical psychologist is to assess the client, treat the client with the expectation proving -- improving that person, correct? A. In a treatment capacity, yes. But I do a lot of things as a clinical psychologist in addition to that. Q. Now, I know you've described this, but I want to make sure we're all on the same page, that your job as a clinical SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007283 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 105 of 158 105 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Cross psychologist is to not independently investigate what the client may or may not be telling you, correct? A. In a treatment setting for the patients that I'm treating, yes, that's correct. Q. You don't go out and talk to witnesses or try to prove or disprove whatever your client is telling you in the treatment setting, correct? A. Correct. Q. It wouldn't be appropriate for you to do that, correct? A. Correct. Q. And generally, you're accepting what the client is telling you as the presenting problem and then you are trying to treat that presenting problem during the course of your therapy, correct? A. Yes. Q. I want -- you talked a bit about your job as a forensic psychologist. How many times have you testified as a forensic psychologist? A. In a courtroom or also in depositions? Q. Both. Let's start with courtroom. I think you said twice. Correct? A. Yes. Q. And one of those was a criminal case where you testified on behalf of the defendant; is that right? A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 106 of 158 106 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Cross 1 Q. And then the other one there was no transcript of; is that correct? 2 A. That is correct. 3 Q. In either of those cases -- well, let me put it the other way. In neither of those cases were you qualified as an expert on grooming, correct? 4 A. Grooming is part of the dynamic, well established to be under the rubric of interpersonal violence, so it would fall into the category in which I was declared an expert. 5 Q. That wasn't my question. My question was, in neither of those cases were you qualified as an expert in the subject, the specific subject of grooming, correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 THE COURT: Did you testify about grooming in those instances? 8 THE WITNESS: I testified about grooming in one of those, and I testified about coercive control and dynamics in a relationship in another. 9 Q. And how many times have you been actually deposed in your role as a forensic psychologist? 10 A. I believe four. I'm not positive, but around that. 11 Q. So in your capacity as a forensic psychologist, you've testified maybe six times; is that right? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. OK. Now, as a forensic psychologist, you are typically SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007285 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 107 of 158 107 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Cross 1 hired by a party in the litigation. Correct? 2 A. Or in a criminal matter, yes. 3 Q. Well, so that would either be the defendant or the prosecutor, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Which is a party in the litigation, correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. OK. And in a civil case, you're going to be either hired 8 by the plaintiff or the defendant's lawyer, correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Now, they don't tell you to go out and just do an 11 independent investigation on your own and then report back to 12 them, whoever hires you. True? 13 A. I -- I'm asked to do an independent investigation as it 14 pertains to the specific question I'm being asked to answer in 15 the course of my evaluation. 16 Q. Yes, I understand that. But whoever hires you gives you 17 material to review and then asks you a specific question based 18 on the material that that party has given you, correct? 19 A. Not necessarily, no. 20 Q. Have you ever had a lawyer who hired you just say, go out 21 and do whatever you want to do, bill me however much you want 22 to bill me, and then tell me what your findings are? Has that 23 ever happened in your career? 24 A. In that specific way, no. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007286 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 108 of 158 108 LBAAMAX3ps Rocchio - Cross 1 Q. "Forensic psychology" refers to the professional practice by any psychologist when applying psychology to the law to assist to address legal matters. Is that the definition? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And forensic and therapeutic roles are very different, correct? 4 A. Yes, they are. 5 Q. And a therapeutic role typically is not going to involve a forensic component, correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. And that would be somewhat of a boundary violation, correct? 8 A. It would be a dual role. 9 Q. OK. Do you consider yourself to be in a forensic capacity here? 10 A. Here today, yes. 11 Q. Yes. And so subject to the forensic guidelines by the APA, correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. On April 23rd, the government sent a letter outlining what the government said were your opinions in this matter. Did you review that letter before the government sent it? 14 A. I've reviewed that letter, I'm not sure at what stage in the process. I believe so, though, yes. 15 (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007287 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 109 of 158 109 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross 1 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 2 Q. I want to talk a little bit about some of the opinions that are in your letter from the government of April 23rd, 2021. So I think the first opinion that I have identified relates to individuals with particular vulnerabilities are often targeted by perpetrators of sexual abuse. 3 4 5 6 7 Do you recall that? 8 A. I do. 9 Q. So let's identify some of the categories of people that have particular vulnerabilities. 10 So that could include economically and disadvantaged people; right? 11 12 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. That would include people who don't have any family at all; correct? 15 16 A. It could, sure. 17 Q. It could include people who have one parent; correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. It could include people who have two parents but one of them is abusive; right? 20 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. It could include people who have cognitive disabilities; correct? 23 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. It could include people who have emotional disabilities; SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 110 of 158 110 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross 1 correct? 2 A. Depending on the type of emotional disability. I would 3 have to look at the literature, but it could. 4 Q. How about a personality disorder? 5 A. I'm sorry, so what is the question? 6 Q. Would that be somebody who is in this vulnerable 7 population? 8 A. I'm not sure whether there's been specific research on 9 personality disorder and risk of victimization, so I couldn't 10 speak to that. 11 Q. What about people who have unstable lives? 12 A. Again, depending on the specific nature of the instability. 13 Q. People with low self-esteem, would that fall under the 14 category of particular vulnerabilities? 15 A. Those have been spoken about in the literature. Again, I'm 16 not sure about that particular construct and the degree to 17 which it's been studied. 18 Q. People who abuse drugs and alcohol, are they in a 19 vulnerable position? 20 A. Research in child and sexual abuse has looked more at the 21 parental use of drugs and alcohol. I would have to go back to 22 the science to look at an individual's personal use of drugs 23 and alcohol as to whether that specifically is or is not found 24 to be a risk factor. 25 Q. People who have been previously sexually assaulted, are SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007289 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 111 of 158111 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross they in the particularly vulnerable category? A. They're at much higher risk for revictimization, yes. Q. So that's a yes? A. Yes. Q. There's not like a list I can go to to say, these are all vulnerable people who are more likely to be sexually abused? A. Actually, there are descriptions of lists of vulnerable populations in the scientific literature. Q. But they're not necessarily all the same; correct? A. I don't understand. THE COURT: I don't understand your question. BY MR. PAGLIUCA: Q. If I go to the DSM 5, for example, and I try to look up populations of people with particular vulnerabilities, I'm not going to find a list that the American Psychological Association has come up with to say that these are people with particular vulnerabilities; correct? A. There are a number of problems with that question. I can't answer it. Q. Do you have a list, a definitive list of the vulnerable population? A. To the extent that I have reviewed -- I haven't written it down. To the extent that I have knowledge and am informed by my education, background, skills and training, I'm aware of the vulnerable populations that have been consistently identified SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007290 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 112 of 158 112 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross in the literature to be at higher risk for sexual abuse. Q. And vulnerable populations are at higher risk for many things; correct? A. Depending on what you're talking about, sure. Q. Well, vulnerable population? A. Vulnerability implies higher risk, yes. Q. Vulnerable populations could be at higher risk for being physically assaulted; correct? A. Yes. But the research has differentially looked at risk for, for example, sexual victimization versus other kinds of victimization. Q. Vulnerable populations can be at higher risk for dropping out of school; right? A. Certain ones, sure. Q. Vulnerable populations can be at higher risk for substance abuse? A. Sure, yes. Q. Vulnerable populations can be at higher risk for health issues; right? A. Yes. Q. So being in a vulnerable population means basically that you're at a higher risk for something bad happening to you in the future; correct? A. No. Because you're using the term more generally than what I was trying to say in my opinion. So I'm looking at the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 113 of 158 113 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross literature around which specific vulnerabilities have been found to be associated with which particular outcomes or adverse outcomes. So it's not that every single vulnerability has been found to increase vulnerability for every potential outcome. There's a relationship between particular types of vulnerability and particular types of outcome. Q. It's also true that there can be more than one vulnerability in a human being? A. Of course, yes. Q. One can be a victim of sexual abuse and have other vulnerability factors; correct? A. Yes. Q. Or conversely, somebody can have vulnerability factors and then become a victim of sexual abuse; correct? A. Yes. Q. I want to turn now to some of your questions about grooming, okay, some of your opinions about grooming. What is your definition of grooming? A. The definition that's commonly used in the literature is -- Q. I didn't ask that question. THE COURT: You may answer. Go ahead. THE WITNESS: The term grooming refers to a set of deceptive strategies that are utilized by an individual to establish a relationship of coercion and control for the purposes of subsequent sexual exploitation and sexual abuse. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007292 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 114 of 158 114 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross 1 Q. And is that your definition? 2 A. It's my understanding of the definitions that have been talked about in the literature. I mean, I haven't written and published a specific set definition. It's a common definition and the one I'm using in my testimony, yes. 3 Q. I was going to ask you that question. You have not published anything specifically about grooming; correct? 4 A. Specifically about grooming, no. But I have certainly published made reference to grooming. 5 Q. And you have not done any metadata studies on your own to collect data about grooming; correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. Grooming can consist of the actions that you're talking about, can consist of -- I think we saw a list of 77 things on it as part of your testimony; is that right? 8 A. Those were 77 specific behaviors that had been identified in the literature as potentially being part of the grooming process, yes. 9 Q. But I think we were talking about things like taking an interest in and of itself. It would depend on the pattern of behavior and the context in which it's occurring. 10 A. Not in and of itself. It would depend on the pattern of behavior and the context in which it's occurring. 11 Q. Let's talk about that for a second. Because what you're saying is, it depends on the groomer's intent in doing a specific act is what, in your view, makes it grooming or not SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007293 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 115 of 158 115 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross grooming; is that correct? A. So it -- grooming, the tactics you're referring to are a series of manipulative strategies. And to the extent that those manipulative strategies are being used to increase the likelihood of sexual exploitation and sexual abuse, then we would describe it as sexual grooming. Q. Let me ask you a question. In order for something to become grooming, you are looking at the intent of the groomer relative to the act; correct? A. So the intent and the function of the behavior relative to the act has always been part of the definition of grooming, yes. Q. So the answer to my question is yes; is that right? A. Yes. Q. So absent the intent to sexually abuse someone, there are a myriad of actions that one could consider grooming? A. The actions themselves are in the function of the establishment of a relationship of trust and attachment or trauma bonding. So to the extent that those behaviors build a relationship, then yes, they could be in another context normative behaviors. Q. And normative behaviors being normal behaviors; right? A. It could be. Q. So for example, a parent wants to take an interest in their child; correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007294 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 116 of 158 116 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And a parent wants to provide for their child; correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And a parent wants their child to go to school; correct? 5 A. Usually, yes. 6 Q. And if a parent can afford for school or after-school activities, the parent wants to provide for those activities; correct? 8 A. Many parents, yes. 9 Q. And let's call them good parents, right, good parents want their children to eat; right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Good parents want to buy their children appropriate presents; correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Good parents want everything they can get for their children in a positive way; correct? 17 A. Good parents want good outcomes for their kids, yes. 18 Q. None of that would be considered grooming absent an intent to use that conduct to manipulate the child; correct? 20 A. Again, the grooming is about the coercion. So to the extent that those behaviors are not being done in a coercive, controlling context, they would not be considered grooming, correct. 24 Q. Have you had mentors in your career? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007295 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 117 of 158 117 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross 1 A. I have. 2 Q. Are those mentors grooming you? 3 A. Not for the purposes of sexual abuse, no. 4 Q. But they could be grooming you for a job, for example; right? 5 6 A. Mentoring is probably the word I would use, but yes, to your point -- at least the point I think you're making -- sure. 7 8 Q. It's a positive thing if I'm trying to groom someone to get ahead at work; correct? 9 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Have you had mentees? 12 A. I have. 13 Q. Have you taken an interest in them? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And have you shown them special treatment because you're interested in their professional development? 16 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And that's not bad grooming, is it? 19 A. That wouldn't be grooming for the purpose of sexual exploitation or abuse, no. 20 21 Q. Similarly, a teacher taking an interest in a student, unless it's for a sexual purpose, wouldn't be grooming, correct? 22 23 24 A. Sexual and/or coercive purpose. 25 Q. Lawyers and judges have law clerks, and they take an SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007296 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 118 of 158 118 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross interest in their professional development. That's not grooming, is it? A. No. Q. And the same would be true for grandparents; right? Taking a positive interest in your grandchildren, taking them to the zoo, buying them presents, being there for them, reading them books, having them sit on your lap, none of that would be considered grooming behavior unless it's for an improper sexual purpose; correct? A. Correct. Q. And the only way that you can back into this grooming opinion is if you assume that the conduct that's being done is being done for an improper sexual purpose; correct? A. Well, it's not an assumption. It's part of the definition. So if I'm looking at the dynamics of sexual abuse, then of course I'm looking at the behaviors that occurred in the context of that relationship. Q. And it assumes that sexual abuse occurred; correct? A. No. The definition says that it's for the purposes of sexual exploitation or abuse, but that could be attempted. It doesn't necessarily have to have occurred. Q. So it assumes that it's either attempted sexual abuse or actual sexual abuse or exploitation; correct? A. Yes. Q. And you're not there physically when any of these behaviors SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007297 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 119 of 158 119 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross that you're describing occur; correct? A. Correct. Q. So you are making an assumption that whatever you are hearing is accurate; correct? A. It depends on the context whether or not I'm making that assumption. Q. You would make that assumption in order to label it grooming; correct? A. I would, for example, in a forensic context, I wouldn't say this is grooming or grooming happened. I would say the individual described behaviors that are consistent with grooming, for example. Q. But for purposes of your testimony in this case, when you're talking about what you're describing as grooming, there's an underlying assumption that either there's an attempted sexual assault or exploitation or actual sexual assault or exploitation, otherwise it's not grooming; correct? A. I wouldn't agree that it's an assumption. It's part of the definition. So -- Q. We're kind of going circular here. THE COURT: Yes. So we'll move on. There are fruitful arguments in cross-examination here, I hope you'll get to that soon. MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. BY MR. PAGLIUCA: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007298 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 120 of 158120 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross 1 Q. You also talked about delayed disclosures; correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Now, the studies vary over when disclosure occurs for a 4 number of reasons. First, the definition of disclosure, the 5 studies have disclosures to law enforcement, right, which is 6 one definition of disclosure? 7 A. That's generally referred to in the literature as 8 reporting. 9 Q. And then there's disclosure to a parent; right? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. Then there's disclosure to a friend; right? 12 A. Mm-hmm. 13 Q. Disclosure to a teacher or other third person? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And there's really no set term of what disclosure in this 16 context means; correct? 17 A. No, that's not correct. 18 Q. There's also no set term on what delay means; correct? 19 A. No, that's not correct. 20 Q. Well, some of the studies have one week as delay; right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And some of the studies have one month as a delay; right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Some of the studies have one year as delay, up to one year; 25 right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007299 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 121 of 158 121 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross 1 A. Yes, many of the studies specifically look at disclosure that is delayed, as in not occurring at the time of the abuse. 2 And then look at what are those rates at various points in time, so it could be a week later, it could be a month later, 3 it could be a year later or five years later. 4 Q. So those are all variables in this idea of when disclosure occurs; right? 5 A. They are variables in the dynamics of the delay. They are 6 all examples of delayed disclosure at various points in time. 7 Because delayed disclosure refers to disclosure at some point 8 after the incident that's being disclosed. 9 Q. I want to ask you some questions about memory now, which is 10 another area of your opinion. 11 You agree with me that memory is a complex topic? 12 A. I do. 13 Q. Memory is generally regarded as the mental registration, 14 retention and recollection of past experiences, sensations or 15 thoughts; would you agree with that? 16 A. I would. 17 Q. And there are a number of parts of the brain that work in 18 connection to form memories; would you agree with that? 19 A. I would. 20 Q. Do you know what those parts are? 21 A. I'm not an expert on neuroscience, so I would not -- I 22 could certainly go and review the literature and get back to 23 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 122 of 158 122 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross you, but off the top of my head, no. Q. And would you agree with me that there are many things that can interfere with accurate memories? A. Yes. Q. You're not a neuropsychologist; correct? A. Correct. Q. Neuropsychology is the study of human behavior as it relates to the normal and abnormal functioning of the central nervous system, which includes the brain; right? A. Correct. Q. You're familiar with the term confabulation? A. I am. Q. And confabulation is a brain under certain circumstances will fill in gaps to make a whole picture; correct? A. An individual will fill in gaps, yes. Q. Their brain will do that; right? A. Their brain, their mouths. I mean, semantics at this point. But generally, the way I understand confabulation is consistent with your description, yes. Q. And those may or may not be accurate pieces of information, but the person actually believes them; right? A. Are you asking if that's possible? Yes. Q. That's part of what confabulation is; correct? A. That those gaps may or may not be accurate, yes. Q. I want to talk now about some of the exhibits that you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007301 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 123 of 158 123 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross reviewed with the government. MR. PAGLIUCA: If I could borrow Ms. Durocher, if that would be okay, to display these. THE COURT: It's fine with me. MR. PAGLIUCA: Exhibit 2. BY MR. PAGLIUCA: Q. This is the article that you talked about "Observing Coercive Control Beyond Intimate Partner Violence: Examining the Perceptions of Professionals About Common Tactics Used in Victimization." A. Yes. Q. This study involves 22 participants; do you see that in the abstract? A. Yes. N equals 22. THE COURT: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you. THE WITNESS: Yes, the sample size in this particular study is 22. BY MR. PAGLIUCA: Q. And that's the total sample size here; right? A. The sample of professionals that were involved in this particular survey, yes. Q. And these are unidentified professionals; right? A. They're not identified by name. They're identified in other ways, though. Q. Well, there's no list of who the people are who are these SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007302 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 124 of 158 124 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross professionals that are giving these answers; right? A. Again, not by name, but certainly there are descriptors of who these individuals are. Q. Well, if we go to those descriptors, we're just talking about a general description of the people that are involved in the study; right? A. I'm not entirely sure. I'd have to look at the article, but I believe there are descriptions about the basis for which they were identified as experts, their level of education and training and the foundation for their publications and areas of expertise. MR. PAGLIUCA: If we could go to Page 3 of this exhibit. Q. Do you see where it's talking about method there? A. I do. Q. So let's start first with this paragraph. "This qualitative study took a phenomenological approach based on data collected as part of a statewide initiative to understand predatory alienation -- a new term created by an advocacy group to describe" and this definition below it. Do you see that? A. I do. Q. Phenomenological means the psychological study of subjective experience; right? A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007303 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 125 of 158 125 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross 1 Q. And that is explaining the experience from the point of view of the subject; right? 2 3 A. Yes. 4 5 Q. And then they talk about why they're doing this study and it's to collect data to define a new term created by an advocacy group. 6 7 Do you see that? 8 A. I'm sorry, could you repeat the question. 9 10 Q. Under method -- 11 12 A. Yes. 13 -- it says that this study is this phenomenological study, it's data collected as part of a statewide initiative to understand predatory alienation -- a new term created by an advocacy group. 14 15 Do you see that? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. So that's what's being undertaken here, is this subjective study to determine this term created by an advocacy group in this study; right? 18 19 20 A. I wouldn't call it a subjective study. I'd call it a qualitative study. But it's investigating the phenomenon of predatory alienation, which it looks like was a term created by an advocacy group. 21 22 23 24 Q. If you go down to the second part here, it says, "All experts identified as cisgender females between early 20s and 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 126 of 158 126 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross 1 late 50s and identified as white or Latina." 2 Do you see that? 3 A. I do. 4 Q. So those are the experts; right? 5 A. Those are some of the qualities of the experts, yes, the 6 demographics. 7 Q. And then if we go down to the participants section here, 8 the last part says, "A few professionals, those in law 9 enforcement" -- on the next page -- "also worked with 10 perpetrators of interpersonal abuse and coercion." 11 Do you see that? 12 A. I do. 13 Q. And then we go on to talk about the professionals who were 14 over the age of 40, et cetera, et cetera. So that's the 15 identification of these folks in this article; right? 16 A. Again, that's the description of their -- some of their 17 backgrounds and demographics, yes. 18 Q. And then in terms of how this data was collected, 19 initially, if we go to data collection, which is the next 20 paragraph, there were 33 professionals contacted by email, and 21 only 22 of these people responded; right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. So we have a dropout rate here of roughly a third to begin 24 with; correct? 25 A. That wouldn't be referred to as a dropout rate in the field SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007305 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 127 of 158 127 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross 1 of social science research. Because dropout rate refers to 2 something else. This would be a response rate. 3 Q. So we have a response rate that's a third less than was asked; right? 4 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And then I want to go to the Page 11 of this study that 7 you're relying on here, which is the appendix. 8 Do you see that? 9 A. I do. 10 Q. Now, this is the interview guide that was given to these 22 11 unidentified professionals to guide the interview of the 12 subjects here; correct? 13 A. No. I believe that it was the professionals, the experts 14 who were interviewed. So I believe that the -- these are the 15 questions that were asked of the experts -- 16 Q. Right. 17 A. -- in their interviews. 18 Q. That's right. 19 You know what a leading question is; right? 20 A. As it's used, yes. 21 Q. That was just a leading question; right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. So let's look at question seven here -- and these are nine 24 questions that were given out as part of this study to ask for 25 the data that was used for this study; right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007306 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 128 of 158 128 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross 1 A. Nine questions that were asked during the interviews to elicit data, yes. 2 3 Q. Right. Question seven: "How do online predators, human traffickers, con artists, gangs, cults, and other groups use predatory alienation (term used by interviewee) to isolate young adults and senior citizens?" 4 5 6 7 Do you see that? 8 A. I do. 9 Q. That's a leading question; right? 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: I'll sustain because I'm hoping you'll get to something that is helpful here. 12 13 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 14 Q. Well, this study has serious flaws, does it not? 15 A. I don't -- I don't think that the study has serious flaws. I think it has a lot of useful information. 16 17 As I said, there's no study I would agree with every single part of. To the extent they're asking experts in the field about groups of behavior strategies, techniques and modus operandi that have been well established and studied and they're asking a group of experts to what degree and what ways have they observed these well-studied phenomena in their respective fields, I think that's an appropriate question that can elicit useful information. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And this is something you are relying on in support of your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007307 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 129 of 158 129 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross opinions here today; is that right? A. It's one piece as an example of the scientific literature. But my opinions are not relying upon any one individual piece in its entirety, no. MR. PAGLIUCA: Can we turn to Exhibit 3, please. Again, thank you for doing this. Q. This is another study that you gave to the government that you're relying on as part of your opinions; correct? A. It's an example of the type of literature -- among a lot of literature -- that I'm using in the formation of my opinion, yes. Q. Well, let's look at the abstract for this exhibit. This was accepted May 19th, 2020, it's about a year old, this study; correct? A. Yes. Q. Let's read the first part of this abstract. "Sexual grooming has been deemed an integral part of the child sexual abuse process. However, there has yet to be a universally accepted model for this process and, as a consequence, there is no clear understanding of which behaviors constitute sexual grooming." Do you see that? A. I do. Q. That's the conclusion of this study; correct? A. That is an opinion of the author. That is not the primary SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007308 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 130 of 158 130 LBAGmax4 Rocchio - Cross 1 conclusion of the study, no. 2 Q. Well, are you just saying you ignore the conclusion of the 3 author who did this study because you don't agree with it? 4 A. I'm not saying this is the conclusion. The purpose of the 5 study -- a conclusion generally refers to the concluding 6 comments summarizing the main findings of the study. So this 7 is actually not part of her -- their conclusion. It's part of 8 their rationale for why this particular piece of research is 9 important and needed in the field. 10 Q. So let's go through the methodology of this particular 11 study as well. 12 THE COURT: We'll take about a 20-minute, 30-minute 13 break for lunch. It's 12:55, I think we probably need 30 14 minutes, just logistically, so we'll resume at 1:25. 15 I do want to encourage you, Mr. Pagliuca, to focus 16 your cross less on what you might do in front of a jury -- 17 because you are ably demonstrating to me so far that the points 18 you made in your papers are cross-examination points -- so to 19 the extent there are any of the opinions you want to focus on 20 the underlying Daubert questions -- and you did a little bit at 21 the end here -- the time would be much more effectively used. 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: Understood, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Thank you. We'll resume in 30 minutes. 24 (Luncheon recess) 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007309 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 131 of 158 131 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 1:25 p.m. 2 3 LISA ROCCHIO, resumed. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Pagliuca, you may proceed. 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 6 CROSS EXAMINATION (Cont'd) 7 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 8 Q. Dr. Rocchio, we were talking about Exhibit 3, and as I understand it, this is the most recent attempt to validate the sexual grooming model of child sexual abusers; is that correct? 9 10 A. That's the most recent attempt to validate this particular model, yes. 11 12 Q. OK. Well -- 13 A. Actually, it's a recent. I'm not sure what research has been done since that. 14 15 Q. You were asked by the government to give the government whatever articles you thought were helpful with regard to your testimony here today. Is that correct? 16 17 A. I was asked by the government to give examples of articles that pertained to the subject matter of my testimony today. 18 19 Q. OK. And as I understand it, this is a hearing to determine whether or not there were scientifically valid principles under federal law to admit this testimony. You understand that. 20 21 A. Yes, I do. 22 23 Q. And one of the things that you did was provide the 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007310 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 132 of 158 132 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross government with this article, Exhibit 3, "Validation of Sexual Grooming Model of Child Sex Abusers," which I think you said that you thought that these authors, Winters and Jeglic, were credible. Is that right? A. I said I believed that they have done a lot of research in the field. I don't think I used the word "credible." Q. OK. It's something, though, that you provided to the government as support for your testimony here today. Is that right? A. It is some information pertaining to my testimony, yes. Q. So let's continue a little bit in terms of what this study involved. First of all, there were a total of 18 people that responded to this survey. Is that right? A. That was the second half, I believe, of the study that you're referring to. This was a two-part study. So my understanding is in the second part, there were 18 individuals who are experts in the field, yes. Q. All right. The pertinent one is the literature review. Right? A. It was done in a structured way, though. It wasn't just a summary of the literature. But, yes. The first part was a culling of scientific literature to identify particular behaviors that have been established in the literature to be associated with the process of various tactics, such as grooming and abuse by offenders. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007311 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 133 of 158 133 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross 1 Q. And of those 77 items, we basically cut that in half, and then we had 18 people that were ultimately interviewed about those items. Is that right? 2 A. It was in the other order. If they used the 18 people to 3 get the list down from the 77 items to the 42. 4 Q. Right. And the author, if we can go to page 17 of Exhibit 5 3, please, at the start of page 16, bottom. So that the 6 authors conclude, "This study is the first to validate a model 7 of grooming and behaviors involved in the process, which is a 8 major step toward developing a more universally accepted 9 framework for these pre-offense behaviors." Do you see that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And do you agree that this is the first to validate a 12 model? 13 A. Validate a model, yes. 14 Q. OK. And then the authors go on to the rest of the 15 conclusion here. I'm going to pick it up in the middle of that 16 paragraph. "This study has established the content validity of 17 a model of sexual grooming, therein laying the groundwork for 18 further validation of an evidence-based model of sexual 19 grooming." Do you see that? 20 A. I do. 21 Q. OK. They go on to say, "the model" -- this is the model 22 we're talking about here, correct? 23 A. This particular model. 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007312 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 134 of 158 134 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross 1 Q. Yes. "The model should undergo rigorous testing to ensure the stages accurately represent the complex process of sexual grooming." Do you see that? 2 A. I do. 3 Q. "Further, a standardized measure of grooming behaviors should be developed based on behaviors and stages delineated in the SGM," which is what they're talking about here. Right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. So as we stand here today, there has been no further rigorous testing of this model that you're aware of. Correct? 6 A. There is an enormous amount of testing and scientific study that led up to this particular model. I'm not aware -- I don't -- I can't speak as to whether or not they've done research subsequent to this, no. 7 Q. But even these authors say that this isn't good enough for evidence-based grooming testimony. Right? 8 A. That's not my reading of the paper, no. 9 Q. OK. And you don't -- have you ever asked these authors about their opinion? 10 A. No, I have not. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can turn to Exhibit 4, please. 12 Q. I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this. You've talked about it. This is the Bennett and O'Donohue opinions, or article, in which Bennett and O'Donohue say that there's a lack of consensus regarding what grooming is and talk about it 13 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007313 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 135 of 158 135 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross 1 not meeting the Daubert standard. Correct? 2 A. That was one of their opinions at the conclusion of the 3 article. 4 Q. Right, which you did not agree with. Is that right? 5 A. I, I wouldn't presume to make an opinion about -- to offer 6 an opinion about Daubert specifically, but certainly I'm here 7 to talk about the state of the scientific literature in my 8 areas of expertise. 9 Q. OK. But the most recent state of the scientific literature 10 is Exhibit 3. Is that right? 11 A. No. That's an example of a recent article that was done 12 and not the most recent, nor is it the only. 13 Q. Well, did you give any other more recent article to the 14 government in support of your testimony here today? 15 A. I would have to look at the dates of all of the articles I 16 gave them. I'm not sure of the order of publication. It's 17 possible that this was pub -- the Winters article we've been 18 talking about was published, I believe, in 2020. So I would -- 19 certainly there have been articles published since that time. 20 Q. Do you know of one that does anything with the Winters 21 study to move it forward, to validate it in any way? 22 A. Not specifically. I would have to look for that. At the 23 moment no. 24 Q. OK. Thank you. 25 Exhibit 5 -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007314 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 136 of 158 136 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross 1 THE COURT: Can I ask, do you agree with the proposition that this was -- a version of it is that the meaning of grooming or an understanding of what constitutes grooming strategies and the like is contested in the literature? 5 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't say that it's contested. I would say that there's actually substantial agreement and there's more agreement than disagreement. So I would say that the concept is well accepted. Exactly how to define it is the piece that I think they're working on. And also which specific stages or what order and the process by which it happens, I think, is something that these authors -- well, the Winters authors -- are trying to move forward on. But I think the very concept of the idea that offenders use a variety of tactics, modus operandi, and behaviors in the process of developing a relationship with their intended victims is well established and accepted in the peer-reviewed literature and scientific community. 19 THE COURT: To the extent you're familiar with the body of literature around trauma bonding in the sex-worker context, is there a comparable sort of dialogue and discussion among -- within the field as to what is an appropriate model, what counts as -- deemed strategies and the like? 24 THE WITNESS: I'm aware of some research that's been done looking at the types of behaviors and groomings, which SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007315 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 137 of 158 137 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross would be various stages in the pimp and prostitute literature that are analogous to this. So, for example, how victims are targeted and selected, how the relationship develops over time, what sorts of behaviors are done to influence and coerce, and then to develop that trauma bond and attachment, which may get harder, for example, tactics that involve isolation and increased dependency and things like that. THE COURT: Do you have a sense, is the state of the literature on that subject more settled or more advanced than it is on the concept of grooming in child sexual abuse? THE WITNESS: I, I'm not sure that I can answer that. I think it's analogous literature. They're talking about the same things, so I'm not -- I can't comment on that area of the literature specifically. THE COURT: Go ahead. MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. Ms. Drescher, if you could pull up Exhibit 5 for me, please. Q. This is the article that you talked about by Dr. Dietz. And, again, Dr. Dietz wrote this in 2017, published in 2018. Is that right? A. Yes. Q. And Dr. Dietz warns, on page 31, that "there is considerable risk of misleading the fact finder into believing that these latter behaviors are well-established predictors of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007316 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 138 of 158 138 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross 1 child sexual abuse." Do you see that? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. So that's yet another expert's opinion in this field about 4 there being problems with this grooming moniker. Correct? 5 A. No. I wouldn't agree with that statement. 6 Q. There are some other studies that you provided to the 7 government that have not been introduced into evidence. And I 8 just want to ask you if you recall these. There is the study 9 "Sexual Grooming of Children: Review of Literature and 10 Theoretical Considerations." Do you recall that? 11 A. The title is familiar. I don't recall the contents of that 12 specific article. 13 Q. Do you recall the conclusion being that there is still no 14 understanding about this phenomena when talking about grooming? 15 A. Are you talking about the Craven article? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. My understanding is that was written a long time ago. But, 18 no, I couldn't sit here and tell you that I have a recollection 19 of what specifically the conclusion of any of those specific 20 articles were without having an opportunity to review them 21 again. 22 Q. Sure. 23 MR. PAGLIUCA: May I approach the witness, your Honor? 24 THE COURT: What are you identifying? 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm identifying Defendant's Exhibit A, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007317 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 139 of 158 139 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross which is this article. If I may approach your clerk and give your clerk some copies. THE COURT: That's fine. MS. POMERANTZ: May I have a copy? THE COURT: The government needs a copy. MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, I've got copies for everybody. THE CLERK: Do you have another copy? Do you have an extra copy for us? MR. PAGLIUCA: I do. BY MR. PAGLIUCA: Q. This is, as you identified, the Craven article, correct? A. It is. Q. And in the introduction, Ms. Craven says that this phenomenon of grooming is little -- "there is little understanding about this phenomenon" correct? A. Where are you reading from? I'm sorry. Q. Introduction, middle of the page. Fourth line down. A. "About this phenomenon." Yes. Q. And that's the ultimate conclusion of this article, understanding that it was written in 2006. Right? A. And whether it was the ultimate conclusion, that is something that they posit in the introduction, yes. Q. May we go to page 11, to the conclusion. "Despite the wide acceptance of the term, sexual grooming of children is not understood clearly, particularly in the public domain." Do you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007318 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 140 of 158 140 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross see that? A. Yes. MR. PAGLIUCA: May I approach again with Exhibit B, your Honor? THE COURT: OK. MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I move to admit A, which has been tendered previously. THE COURT: Which has been entered previously? MR. PAGLIUCA: Tendered. THE COURT: Oh, tendered. MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. THE COURT: No objection? MS. POMERANTZ: No objection. THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit A is admitted to the hearing record. (Defendant's Exhibit A received in evidence) THE COURT: B we already have in, don't we? MR. PAGLIUCA: I don't believe so. THE COURT: OK. MS. POMERANTZ: No, your Honor. THE COURT: Thank you. BY MR. PAGLIUCA: Q. Do you see Exhibit B, Doctor? A. I do. Q. This is yet another study that you provided to the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007319 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 141 of 158 141 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross government in support of your testimony here today, correct? A. Partially in support, yes. Q. And this is by the same folks who did the 2020 study, Winters and Jeglic. Right? A. Yes. Q. The abstract here -- this study was actually giving professionals a list, undergraduate students a list of potential grooming behaviors to see if they could identify grooming behaviors. And there were a total of 393 undergraduate students who were provided with this information. Do you recall that? A. I don't recall specifically. I recog -- I can recall. This was the article that -- in which -- they did two things. They developed the model, which they later tested. And then they created a scenario in which they attempted to see whether or not grooming behaviors could be predicted. Q. Right. And the results of this study were that grooming behaviors could not be predicted. Correct? A. Correct. Q. And this is what ended up with the 2020 attempt to validate the model, which they're still working on. Right? A. So you're talking about two different concepts. I can't really answer that question. Q. OK. Bottom line, "Nobody could predict grooming out of 364 people" -- "393 undergraduate students." Right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007320 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 142 of 158 142 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross 1 A. That was the conclusion of the article, yes. 2 Q. And this is in 2016, this article, correct? 3 A. It was written in '16, published in '17 perhaps, yes. 4 Q. And we are talking about, in the conclusion and implications here, which is on page 9, "The present study found that individuals are not able to identify the potential predatory behaviors that a child molester may employ." Correct? 9 A. Not able to identify it ahead of time, which is different than scientific literature looking at retrospective studies. But, yes, you're correct that this article found that we couldn't predict who is and is not, ahead of time, going to be a predator, based on certain behaviors and grooming. 14 Q. Right. And the reason is, once you believe that someone sexually assaulted someone, then you can, in hindsight, go back and look at behavior and characterize it as grooming. Right? 17 A. That's actually not what hindsight bias in the -- as referenced in the grooming literature refers to. 19 Q. So I'd like to take a look at Exhibit 6 now, which has been admitted -- or? 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: I don't know if I admitted that, your Honor. But I move for the admission of Exhibit B. 23 THE COURT: Without objection? 24 MS. POMERANTZ: I'm so sorry. 25 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibit B. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007321 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 143 of 158 143 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross 1 MS. POMERANTZ: No objection, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Is admitted to the hearing record. 3 (Defendant's Exhibit B received in evidence) 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we could pull up Exhibit 6, please. 5 THE COURT: Government 6? 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, please. 7 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 8 Q. Exhibit 6 is the study that you appear to have relied on with regard to disclosure issues. Is that correct? 9 A. It's something I submitted in part, yes. 10 Q. Well, as you sit here today, can you tell us anything else that you submitted with regard to your testimony about delayed disclosure and supporting literature? 11 A. I couldn't give you a list, but, again, my opinions are not based on any one article or even solely on my knowledge of the literature. It's based on an interaction of the totality of my education, training, skills, experience, and knowledge of the scientific and clinical and professional literature. 12 Q. OK. So looking at Exhibit 6, this is a survey, essentially, of a number of publications that talk about barriers of disclosure. Correct? 13 A. So my understanding is, this was a study that was looking at, understanding that delayed disclosure is very common, they were trying to determine what sorts of things present as barriers to disclosure and as facilitators of disclosure. 14 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007322 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 144 of 158144 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross 1 Q. And do you recall that initially the authors considered 322 articles and selected 33 out of those 332? 2 A. I don't recall that as we sit here today, specifically, no. I'm sorry. 3 Q. And if we can go to page 3 of Government Exhibit 6. Page 3 starts a table that has a summary of the various articles that were reviewed. Is that correct? 4 A. That's my understanding, yes. 5 Q. So let's look at some of the -- this study considered males and females, correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you know that males tend to not report as frequently as females for a variety of psychological issues, correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Either not report or delay further. 10 Q. Right. 11 A. So that would be one of the predictors or facilitators of delayed disclosure. 12 Q. And you're aware -- are you aware that this case does not involve any allegation of delayed reporting by males? 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 14 THE COURT: What's the grounds? 15 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, she doesn't know about this case, the specific details. 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, I think that's my point, your 17 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007323 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 145 of 158 145 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross 1 Honor, part of my point. 2 THE COURT: If the point is that she doesn't know any of the facts of the specific case and the government concedes that's true, we can move on. 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. 4 I guess the other point, your Honor, which I can develop, is, these studies that are included and impact the statistics are really not relevant here because they deal with males or a combination of males and females, and there are only a few of them that deal with females specifically. 5 THE COURT: OK. 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: So when we're conflating these things, it conflates the numbers. 7 May I proceed, your Honor? 8 THE COURT: You may. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you. 10 Q. So that the first study, which is in 2016, in the last column, is all males. Do you see that? 11 A. Could you -- the page is upside down on my screen. Can we rotate it so that I can look at what you're seeing, please. 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: I don't know if Ms. Drescher can do that or not. 13 THE WITNESS: Or I can look at a paper copy. But I -- there's no way I can read that. 14 THE COURT: I can't read it either. 15 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007324 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 146 of 158 146 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross 1 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I believe there's a binder for Dr. Rocchio. 2 THE COURT: OK. Is it in there? 3 MS. POMERANTZ: It should be under tab 6, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Tab 6. 5 MR. ROHRBACH: And would your Honor like a copy of it? 6 THE COURT: I can't hear if you're not using the mike. 7 MS. POMERANTZ: Would your Honor like a binder as well? 8 THE COURT: Sure. 9 All right. So we're looking at Government 6. 10 MR. PAGLIUCA: Correct, your Honor, page 3 of 24. 11 Q. I'm going to skip the next one, Dr. Rocchio, which deals with a discrete set of individuals. If we go to the third one down, if you go to the right-hand column, which is the summary. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. This includes -- this is a 50 percent disclosure rate, as identified in this summary. Correct? 14 A. 50 percent did not disclose until after the age of 19, I believe. 15 Q. "Half of the participants had not disclosed their CSA experiences before the age of 19." Right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. That means half did. 18 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 19 DOJ-OGR-00007325 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 147 of 158 147 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. OK. And of that half, we've got 67 males in that population. Correct? 3 4 A. No. 5 Q. 67 male and female adult survivors. Right? 6 A. 76 percent of whom were identifying as female. 7 Q. Right. So at least 50 percent disclosed before the age of 8 19 according to this study. Right? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And we don't know how delayed this reporting was or was not. 11 12 A. You mean disclosures that were made prior to the age of 19? 13 Q. Right. 14 A. Again, not in this summary. I'd have to look to see whether that was addressed in the article itself. But, no, that's not referenced in the summary. 15 16 Q. OK. But you didn't do that in preparation for your testimony here today, correct? 17 18 A. This particular study? 19 Q. Correct. 20 21 A. No, I don't believe I did. 22 Q. OK. The next one down, Leclerc and Wortley, 2015. Now, you spent some time talking about offender-generated data as part of the basis for your opinion, correct? 23 24 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007326 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 148 of 158 148 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross 1 Q. All right. And if we go to the summary here, the author is critical of offender-generated data or questions "offender-generated data through self-reports because it could be subject to cognitive distortions -- minimization or exaggerations," correct? 6 A. I think that they are identifying potential issues that could be present with offender-generated data. 8 Q. Right. If we go to page 4, the McElvany and Culhane article. 10 A. The opinions in that study did continue. You didn't refer to all of their opinions, just part of them. 12 Q. That's OK. The government can ask you questions on redirect if they'd like. 14 A. OK. 15 Q. In this opinion, in this, the findings are, "Majority of children told their mothers and their peers first." Do you see that? 18 A. Of those who disclosed, the majority told mothers and peers, yes. 20 Q. Right. Then the next study, 2014, when the -- 21 A. So that study, though, was among -- everybody in that study had already disclosed. It was a study of children who had already disclosed, to look at who they disclosed to. 24 Q. Right. 25 Then we have the next study here, "220 minor victims" SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007327 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 149 of 158 149 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross allege -- when we're talking about people outside of the family, we have a 70 percent disclosure rate before one year as reported here, correct? A. I'm sorry. I would have to read where you're reading from. I'm not sure what -- can I take a moment to just read the opinion? THE COURT: Sure. A. This is the Dumont article? Q. Yes. A. OK. Q. All right. I'd like to turn to page 5, to the bottom of the page, the Schonbucher, Maier, Mohler-Kuo study. A. Did you just ask me a question about the article you just asked me to read? Q. Yes, 80 percent. A. When I said I had read it, I wasn't answering your question. Can you -- if you want an answer to the question, I'll need to hear it again. Q. That's fine. The Court can read this. THE COURT: So the question is withdrawn? MR. PAGLIUCA: Sure, your Honor. Yes. This is admitted into evidence. THE COURT: And to the extent you asked a question about it, it's withdrawn? MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007328 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 150 of 158 150 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross 1 THE COURT: OK. 2 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 3 Q. We're going down to the bottom of page 5. 4 A. Yes. 5 Actually, you know, it's on my screen properly now, so it's going to be easier for me to look there, because it's bigger. 6 7 OK. 8 9 Q. So I want to just highlight here one of the problems with these studies that you're relying on is, we've got a comment, "Two-thirds of the sample did not disclose right away." But we don't define what "right away" means, do we? 10 11 12 A. So to be clear, the article that I submitted was a summary of the literature. I'm not saying that I have read and examined every study cited in this particular article. So I really can't speak as to how those in this article identified or defined "rate of disclosure." I would expect, however, that it would be defined in the full article itself. It's not defined here in the brief summary. But typically in scientific literature, it would -- the time period of disclosure that the authors were investigating, I would expect to find that in the article itself. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Q. OK. But apparently you haven't gone back to look at the underlying data. Is that right? 24 25 A. I have not gone back to look at every reference cited in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007329 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 151 of 158 151 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross 1 this particular article. I have extensively reviewed 2 underlying data as it pertains to this subject over the course 3 of my career. 4 Q. OK. But this is the article you gave to the government in 5 support of your testimony. Right? 6 A. In partial support, yes. 7 Q. OK. Page 7 of 24, the top, the Alaggia study, 2010. This 8 one we have a -- this involves male -- it says, well, 36 9 percent. We have a 42 percent disclosure rate identified here 10 during childhood. Do you see that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And then 26 percent claimed repressed memory. Right? 13 A. That's what it says there, yes. 14 Q. I don't need to go through all of these. But fair to say 15 that it's an overstatement, based on the literature, to claim 16 that a majority of child alleged victims fail to report sex 17 abuse during childhood. 18 A. I would not agree with that, no. 19 Q. Can you point to one study that supports your conclusion 20 here, or your opinion here, that a majority fail to report -- 21 A. A study you just cited, the Alaggia 2010, 46 disclosed -- 22 42 disclosed, which would mean 58 percent did not. 23 Q. It says during childhood. We don't know exactly when the 24 disclosure occurred or didn't. You're talking about 25 substantial amounts in your government testimony here today, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007330 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 152 of 158 152 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross 1 not the difference between 42 and 58 percent. 2 A. I was talking about the majority. And they define there, I 3 believe in this article, again assuming this summary is 4 accurate, that they were defining childhood as under the age of 5 18. 6 Q. And I have two more of these I think we need to look at. 7 THE COURT: Are we still on disclosure or another 8 opinion? 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, we're on disclosure. 10 THE COURT: I think you can wrap up disclosure. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: All right, your Honor. I get it. 12 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 13 Q. So there are other reasons, outside of the statistics, that 14 individuals who, at some point later in life, claim to be 15 sexually assaulted make that claim. Correct? 16 A. Outside of what statistics? 17 Q. Well, you've been talking about delayed disclosure as a 18 predictor of sexual assault. Is that correct? 19 A. No, that is incorrect. 20 Q. What is the significance, as far as you are concerned, with 21 delays in disclosures as part of your opinions? 22 THE COURT: If you'd like, Mr. Pagliuca, you don't 23 have to, but you can take off your mask in the podium box if 24 you like. 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: I appreciate it. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007331 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 153 of 158 153 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross 1 THE COURT: And I would suggest that the microphone point directly at you. 2 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. 4 THE COURT: Go ahead. 5 A. So the significance of delayed disclosure as it relates to my opinion is, it is part of our understanding of phenomenology of child sexual abuse and the ways in which individuals tell. 6 So I'm not identifying delayed disclosure as a predictor. I'm simply saying that it is a common phenomenon that is observed in the scientific literature to occur among children who are sexually abused. 7 8 Q. Well, there are many other reasons why these reports may surface not immediately. Correct? 9 A. Again, I'm commenting at this point my opinion is that delayed disclosure is common. I'm not -- do you have a question about the reasons why? 10 Q. Yeah. There are many reasons why. There are allegations that are made months, weeks, years, after an alleged event. Correct? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. And they may or may not have anything to do with the veracity of the allegation. Correct? 13 A. The reasons may not have -- again, are you -- I mean, are you asking me, can people make false claims? 14 Q. Yes. 15 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007332 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 154 of 158 154 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross 1 A. Of course, yes. 2 Q. For many reasons. Correct? 3 A. Sure. 4 Q. And that could be outright lying, could be a reason? 5 A. Could be. 6 Q. False memories could be a reason, correct? 7 A. Could be. 8 Q. Intoxication could be a reason? 9 A. Again, these are reasons that have been hypothesized to explain possibilities for false allegations, yes. 10 11 Q. And they are accepted in the literature, correct? 12 A. That lying exists, or that intoxication can lead to, to distorted claims? Sure. 13 14 Q. Yes. Or a variety of psychiatric disorders, correct? 15 A. Again, I'm not aware of the scientific research that has studied specifically these as predictors of false allegations. 16 17 There's a very large body of scientific literature documenting of course that false allegations can occur, but they are -- represent a very small minority of allegations that are made. 18 19 And I believe the article that you're reviewing, the authors are putting forth some hypotheses as to how or why that might 20 occur. But I don't believe it's coming from a scientific 21 study, and I'm not aware of one at this point. 22 23 Q. OK. So wrapping up here -- 24 25 THE COURT: I would again try to point it directly at SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007333 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 155 of 158 155 LBAAMAX5ps Rocchio - Cross you. MR. PAGLIUCA: OK. THE COURT: Try that. MR. PAGLIUCA: All right. THE COURT: Thank you. Q. What is the study that you are relying on for your opinions about whether -- that has been tested here? A. There is no single study that I'm relying upon for my opinion. Q. OK. And what is the known potential rate of error for any of your opinions? A. It would depend on what you're -- how you're defining "error." So, for example, in the study where they had a bunch of professionals identify, for example, the relevance of particular behaviors to grooming, in that particular study, they looked for, I think the standard in the field was a .78 statistical significance or measure of agreement. So different studies use different measures. There are other studies that looked at inter-rater reliability. In other words, if someone is coding the content of a qualitative interview that's been done, they'll look at the degree of agreement and of course potential disagreement, which would be error, in differences of opinion, and attempt to address and resolve those. But, as I had indicated earlier, in this field, a pure error rate, as in many areas of the social sciences, cannot be SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007334 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 156 of 158 156 LBAAMAX5ps identified, because we can't randomly assign individuals to be sexually abused or not. So we have to look at other measures of testability and scientific ways to study these issues, as well as acceptance within the commun -- general and professional community. Q. And finally, what is the study that you're relying on to determine that this theory of grooming has gained general acceptance in the scientific community? A. As I've said, none of my opinions are based on any single study, alone. MR. PAGLIUCA: That's all I have, your Honor. Thank you. THE COURT: OK. Thank you. Anything, Ms. Pomerantz? MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may we have a moment? THE COURT: You may. (Counsel confer) MS. POMERANTZ: Nothing from the government, your Honor. THE COURT: All right. Thank you. Dr. Rocchio, thank you very much. You're excused. THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. (Witness excused) THE COURT: I just, I have a couple of questions for the defense. Does the defense intend to impeach witness SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 157 of 158 157 LBAAMAX5ps 1 credibility based on failure to disclose at earlier time periods? 2 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: And then do you intend to impeach any 5 witnesses based on substance abuse? 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. 7 THE COURT: OK. All right. I think I have what I 8 need. 9 I'm going to give the reasons for my opinion, I think, 10 probably, at our proceeding on Monday, but what I intend to do 11 is deny the Daubert motion except with respect to the opinion 12 that expresses that the presence of another individual can 13 facilitate sexual abuse of minors. But otherwise the motion 14 will be denied. And as I said, I'll give my reasons for the 15 denial and the reason for the partial grant on Monday. 16 OK. I think with that we can transition to the 412 17 proceeding. So we'll break for ten minutes. We will, as I 18 said, have to seal the courtroom, as required by the rule, 19 which will mean all nine party participants have to leave and 20 the live feed will have to be turn off. And we'll confirm in 21 the overflow rooms that those are off. 22 So we'll break for ten. Thank you. 23 (Recess) 24 (Remainder of hearing sealed) 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007336 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 467 Filed 11/15/21 Page 158 of 158 158 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Examination of: Page 3 LISA ROCCHIO 4 Direct By Ms. Pomerantz . . . . . . . . . . . 7 5 Cross By Mr. Pagliuca . . . . . . . . . . . . 95 6 Cross By Mr. Pagliuca . . . . . . . . . . . . 131 7 8 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS Received 9 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20 10 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 44 11 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 48 12 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 51 13 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 58 14 15 DEFENDANT EXHIBITS Received 16 17 Exhibit No. 18 A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 140 19 B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 143 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00007337