Document 645

Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 1 of 50 1 M38TMAX1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK ------------------------------------x UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, v. 20 CR 330 (AJN) GHISLAINE MAXWELL, Defendant. ------------------------------------x New York, N.Y. March 8, 2022 10:15 a.m. Before: HON. ALISON J. NATHAN, District Judge APPEARANCES DAMIAN WILLIAMS United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York ALISON MOE MAURENE COMEY ANDREW ROHRBACK LARA POMERANTZ Assistant United States Attorneys COHEN & GRESSER Attorneys for Defendant CHRISTIAN EVERDELL BOBBI C. STERNHEIM Attorney for Defendant SPODEK LAW GROUP Attorneys for Juror 50 TODD A. SPODEK SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010216 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 2 of 50 2 M38TMAX1 1 (Case called) 2 DEPUTY CLERK: Counsel, please state your name for the record, starting with the government. 3 MS. MOE: Good morning, your Honor, Alison Moe, Lara Pomerantz, Andrew Rohrbach and Maurene Comey for the government. 4 THE COURT: Good morning, counsel. 5 MS. STERNHEIM: Bobbi C. Sternheim and Christian Everdell for Ghislaine Maxwell, who is present at defense table. 6 THE COURT: Good morning. 7 And Mr. Spodek on behalf of Juror 50, please state your appearance. 8 MR. SPODEK: Good morning, your Honor, Todd Spodek on behalf of Juror 50, who is present. 9 THE COURT: Thank you. We're here today for a hearing on the defendant's motion for a new trial. The government has consented and to indeed requested this hearing as to Juror 50. 10 My opinion and order dated February 24, 2022 ordered this hearing into Juror 50's responses to questions on the jury selection questionnaire. That opinion lays out the scope and nature of today's hearing. 11 In addition to the motion for new trial briefing that I received from of the parties, I also received proposed questions from both sides which I have carefully considered in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 3 of 50 3 M38TMAX1 preparing for today's hearing. In the submitted questions, the defense renewed the request that counsel be permitted to conduct the questioning. I am denying that renewed request. I will conduct this proceeding in accord with my February 24 opinion. Following my questioning, I will hear from counsel for the parties at sidebar as to any proposed follow-up questions that they wish be asked and I will consider those requests. In a moment, I will address counsel for Juror 50. Let me ask counsel for the parties if there are any preliminary matters. MS. MOE: Not from the government, your Honor, thank you. MS. STERNHEIM: No, thank you. THE COURT: All right. Juror 50 is present and represented by retained counsel, Mr. Spodek. Mr. Spodek, just as a preliminary matter, does your client wish that he be referred to here as Juror 50 rather than using his full name? MR. SPODEK: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: And I understand, but again confirm for me that in post-verdict press interviews he did not reveal his last name, is that correct? MR. SPODEK: That's correct. THE COURT: I do intend to continue to refer to him as SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 4 of 50 M38TMAX1 1 Juror 50. In post-verdict press interviews he did not reveal his last name. Consistent with that and my juror anonymity order during trial, I will permit that to continue. 2 3 I received a letter dated March 1st, 2022 from 4 Mr. Spodek. In that letter, Mr. Spodek, you informed me that 5 Juror 50 would invoke his Fifth Amendment privilege against 6 self-incrimination at this hearing. As you see from my 7 February 24 opinion, Mr. Spodek, I am going to ask Juror 50 8 questions today about responses that he gave during the jury 9 selection process in the case of United States v. Maxwell. 10 11 Does it remain your client's intention to assert his 12 Fifth Amendment privilege in response to those questions? 13 MR. SPODEK: Yes, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: I'm going to confirm on the record with 15 your client, Mr. Spodek: 16 Juror 50, is it your intention to assert your Fifth 17 Amendment privilege in response to the questions I'm going to 18 ask you today? 19 JUROR 50: Yes, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: All right. I received a written 21 application from the government last night. 22 Ms. Moe, could you confirm that the government is 23 making the application? 24 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: In accord with the application, I have SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010219 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 5 of 50 M38TMAX1 5 1 signed the proposed immunity order which will be docketed with 2 Juror 50's name redacted. 3 Juror 50, in view of your assertion of the Fifth 4 Amendment privilege, I have signed an order granting you 5 immunity. It is use immunity with respect to your testimony in 6 this proceeding. That means that no testimony given by you or 7 any information, directly or indirectly, derived from your 8 testimony may be used against you in a federal criminal case, 9 except if you testify falsely today you could be prosecuted for 10 perjury. In light of this immunity, you will be required to 11 answer questions today. 12 So in other words, you need to answer my questions 13 today. You need to answer truthfully. If you don't answer 14 truthfully, you could be prosecuted for perjury. But you will 15 not be prosecuted in federal court based on any truthful 16 testimony that you give here today, even if that testimony 17 indicated that you committed a crime. 18 Juror 50, do you understand that? 19 JUROR 50: Yes, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: All right. I am going to have Juror 50 21 come forward to the witness stand, please. 22 (Continued on next page) 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010220 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 6 of 50 6 M38TMAX1 1 , 2 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 3 EXAMINATION 4 BY THE COURT: 5 THE COURT: I'm going to approach with the court reporter and ask Juror 50 at the sidebar to state and spell his 6 reporter and ask Juror 50 at the sidebar to state and spell his name for the record. His name will be redacted from the public 7 transcript. 8 9 (At sidebar) 10 THE COURT: Please state your name for the record. 11 THE WITNESS: . 12 (In open court) 13 BY THE COURT: 14 Q. With that, Juror 50, you are under oath. 15 I will begin with some general instructions to you. 16 If at any point you don't understand something that I'm asking, 17 please ask for clarification. Don't speculate as to the 18 meaning of my question, ask for clarification. 19 In responding to questions, I do instruct you not to 20 tell me about the jury deliberations or your thought process 21 during deliberations. I'm not asking questions about those and 22 you should not provide that information in response to my 23 questions. So listen to my specific questions, let me know if 24 there's something you don't understand, do not respond with 25 information about the jury's deliberations, and tell the truth. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010221 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 7 of 50 M38TMAX1 7 1 If there is a response that is too difficult or embarrassing for you to share in open court, you may request to speak at sidebar with me and counsel. However, if you have already shared the information publicly, including in media interviews, then I will not allow the sidebar. 6 There's a binder in front of you. I have marked the document in there as Court Exhibit 1, so it's Court Exhibit 1 to the record for this hearing proceeding and you may open that. 10 That is a copy of the questionnaire that you filled out on November 4, 2021. Please take a moment and look through it so that you're familiar with it and can identify it. 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you recognize that as the questionnaire that you filled out on November 4, 2021, as part of the jury selection process in this case? 17 A. Yes, your Honor. 18 Q. I will ask you to turn to page 24 and look at question 48. 19 That question reads: Have you or a friend or family member ever been the victim of sexual harassment, sexual abuse or sexual assault, and then in parenthesis, this includes actual or attempted assault or other unwanted sexual advance, including by a stranger, acquaintance, supervisor, teacher or family member. Do you see that question 48? 25 A. Yes, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010222 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 8 of 50 8 M38TMAX1 1 Q. On your questionnaire you indicated no as your answer. You checked the box for no. Is no an accurate answer to that question? 2 3 A. No, it is not. 4 5 Q. What is an accurate answer to that question? 6 A. Yes for self. 7 Q. Okay. If you look at question 48A, that question says: If yes, without listing names, please explain. 8 9 And when you filled out the questionnaire on November 4, 2021, you left that blank. What is an accurate answer to question 48A? 10 11 A. I would have put I was abused as a child. 12 13 Q. Without listing names, what happened? 14 A. It was a family member, who is no longer a part of the family, and one of their friends when I was nine and ten years old. 15 16 Q. Did this happen on one occasion or multiple occasions? 17 18 A. Multiple occasions. 19 Q. And did you tell anyone? 20 A. I did not for several years until I was in high school. 21 Q. And when you told someone in high school, did you tell authorities or adults or friends? 22 23 Who did you tell? 24 A. I told my mom and she called the police station and gave a report of the account and but never received any paperwork. So 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010223 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 9 of 50 M38TMAX1 9 1 I don't know if anything was actually filed or anything done. 2 There were no charges brought. 3 Q. You said a family member, no longer a family member. 4 Again, without listing names, what was the nature of the familial relationship? 5 A. A stepbrother. 6 Q. You said stepbrother? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. I'm going to ask you to look at question 48B. Question 48B reads: If your answer to 48 was yes, do you believe this would affect your ability to serve fairly and impartially as a juror in this case? 9 When you filled this out on November 4, you left that blank. What is an accurate answer to 48B? 10 A. It would have been no, because it did not affect my ability to be fair and impartial at all. 11 Q. I'm going to ask you to turn to page 13 of the questionnaire. Question 25 reads: Have you or any of your relatives or close friends ever been a victim of a crime? 12 And you checked no when you filled this out on November 4. Is no an accurate answer? 13 A. Looking back at it now, no, it's an incorrect answer. 14 Q. Who would have an accurate answer have been? 15 A. It would have been yes. 16 Q. Yes self, yes friend or family? 17 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010224 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 10 of 50 M38TMAX1 1 A. Yes self. 2 Q. And when you say "yes self," what are you referring to? 3 A. I'm referring to the sexual abuse. 4 What I was thinking when I was completing that 5 questionnaire was like if I was robbed or mugged or some sort 6 of crime like that. I wasn't thinking of my sexual abuse as 7 being a victim of a crime because I no longer associate being a 8 victim. It's part of my healing process and it's how I dealt 9 with the abuse. 10 Q. Have you ever been robbed? 11 A. Never. 12 Q. Ever been mugged? 13 A. Never. 14 Q. Family or friends ever been robbed? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Or mugged? 17 A. I don't know anybody that has ever been robbed or mugged. 18 Q. Question 25A, asked: If yes, is there anything about the 19 experience that would prevent you from acting as a fair and 20 impartial juror in this case? 21 You left that blank when you filled it out on 22 November 4. What is an accurate answer to 25A? 23 A. It would have been no. I was definitely able to set aside 24 everything and be fair and impartial. 25 Q. Okay. In light of the answer that you gave to 48A, I am SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010225 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 11 of 50 M38TMAX1 11 going to ask you to turn to question 49. It's on page 25. Question 49 reads: Have you or a friend or family member ever been accused of sexual harassment, sexual abuse or sexual assault, and then in parenthesis: This includes both formal accusations in a court or law or informal accusations in a social or work setting of actual or attempted sexual assault or other unwanted sexual advance, including by a stranger, acquaintance, supervisor, teacher or family member. When you filled this out on November 4, you checked no. Is that an accurate answer? A. Yes, your Honor. Q. So the incident that you described in response to 48 in which, as I understand it, you informed your mother when you were in high school that when you were nine or ten a family member had engaged in sexual abuse with you, is that correct? A. Yes. Q. So why is that not responsive to question 49? A. Because I don't consider them part of my family. I never considered them part of my family even when they lived with us for a few years. Q. And when you filled out the questionnaire, when you got to this question were you thinking about what happened to you but you didn't respond yes because you didn't consider them a family member, or you didn't consider it? A. I didn't even consider it at all. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010226 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 12 of 50 M38TMAX1 1 Q. Why is that? 2 A. I flew through this questionnaire. I never thought that I -- I honestly never thought I would be chosen to sit on this jury. We had to be at the courthouse super early, and I got here early and it took 45 minutes just to get through the security line. And we get ushered into a room -- 7 Q. I will come back and ask you some questions about the process for filling it out. 8 A. Got it. 9 Q. Just for the moment, just with respect to this question, tell me your thought process. 10 A. At this point I was super distracted because I was sat right in front of the table, literally within four feet of that table where everybody was dropping off their questionnaires. 15 People were asking questions, there was papers being ripped off the questionnaire packets, and there's a lot of talking going on, and it's super distracting. I'm like: I want to finish. So I just start going through and marking the questions as I'm like: Okay, okay. I didn't spend a whole lot of time thinking about it. 21 Q. As you sit here now, what's the answer to question 49? 22 A. It would have been -- it would have been yes, that a stepbrother was accused -- a stepbrother and his friend was accused of sexual abuse. 25 Q. Okay. So a moment ago you said the answer would have been SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 13 of 50 M38TMAX1 1 no because you didn't consider them family. 2 A. Family, yeah. 3 Q. But now you say yes because it would have been a stepbrother. Explain. 4 A. Because by law, by marriage, that person was my stepbrother. So when you read the question that way and it 5 says has a friend or family member ever been accused, then the correct answer would have been yes, a friend or family member. 6 Q. Okay. And so the same response then for 48A is what you would have given for 49B? 7 A. Yes, your Honor. 8 Q. And 49B, if your answer to 49 was yes, do you believe this would affect your ability to serve fairly and impartially as a 9 juror in this case? 10 A. In no case. It would not affect me. 11 Q. In responding a moment ago you said you never thought you would be chosen as a juror in this case. Why is that? 12 A. Only because the sheer volume of people that were there. It was insane, the amount of people. So I just never 13 thought -- number one, I didn't know what it was when I went into it, and then when they played the video of you, I just 14 thought that the likelihood of being chosen, surely they will be interviewing thousands of people. And they ultimately 15 choose twelve people to sit on a jury, and I never thought I would be one of those twelve. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010228 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 14 of 50 14 M38TMAX1 1 Q. Did you hope that you would be? 2 A. I did not hope to be on this jury. But again, like if you're going to serve jury duty, it might as well as be something that's interesting, but I did not set out in order to get on this jury. 3 4 5 6 Q. Let me ask you to return to question 48A, page 24. You spoke to this a little bit but I want to make sure I understand the answer. You indicated that when you checked no, that was an inaccurate answer. Why did you check no? 7 8 9 10 A. I didn't see the part where it says self, I just -- I completely skimmed way too fast. I was distracted by all the noise going on around me. And again, like I said, I just wanted to get done with this. It had been a long process, I had been sitting for hours, there were audiovisual problems getting your video to play, so we literally sat there for three hours. I didn't have a phone, I didn't have a book, I was sitting there twiddling my thumbs thinking about the break up that just happened a few weeks prior and sitting in my feelings and not very focused. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. So tell me what you understood the question to be asking. 21 A. I thought it was asking about family or a friend. 22 Q. And the box that says yes for self? 23 A. Right, I just missed it. Inadvertent mistake. This was one of the biggest mistakes I have ever made in my life, and if I could go back and change everything and have slowed down and 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010229 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 15 of 50 M38TMAX1 actually taken the time to read this appropriately, I would in a heartbeat. Q. There are other questions on the questionnaire that are structured with similar yes self, yes friend or family, or no. Do you recall seeing those questions? A. Only after I have reread this do I recall that. Q. So on none of the questions that included yes, parenthesis self, yes friend or family member, or no -- A. I did not pick up on that when I was filling this out. Q. Okay. When did you first learn that an answer to the questionnaire was inaccurate? A. When an article had come out about the article that I had given to Lucia through The Independent. Q. So you learned of an inaccurate answer in an article about an interview? A. Yes. Q. And what about during the interview? A. During the interview, no. Q. When did you first learn that the questionnaire may contain a question that asked about sexual abuse history? A. That was during my Daily Mail interview with the reporter Laura Collins. Q. So we're talking about your response to 48 which you have indicated was inaccurate. Did you in any way intentionally provide an inaccurate answer to this question? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010230 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 16 of 50 M38TMAX1 1 A. Absolutely not. 2 Q. In responding to this question, did you answer no so as to make it more likely that you would be selected for the jury? 3 A. Absolutely not, your Honor. 4 Q. Did your history of sexual abuse motivate you in any way to try to tailor your answers to make it more likely that you would be selected for this jury? 5 A. Not at all, your Honor. 6 Q. At the time you filled out the questionnaire on November 4, did it occur to you that you might personally benefit in any way from being on the jury in this case? 7 A. Not at all, your Honor. 8 Q. I'm going to return to question 25 again, which you have indicated was inaccurately responded to, and again you've discussed this, but I want to just hear directly in response to this question, why did you check no? 9 A. Well, again, I wasn't thinking about abuse. I don't really think about my abuse really much anymore because it doesn't define me, it doesn't make me who I am today. It's something that happened, it's an experience that I lived through, and I have become the person I am today because of my goals and ambitions. And I do not feel that I am a victim of a crime, even though looking back on this abuse, that does make me a victim of a crime, which is why I should have marked yes for self. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010231 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 17 of 50 17 M38TMAX1 1 Q. In any way did you intentionally provide an inaccurate answer to this question? 2 A. Absolutely not, your Honor. 3 Q. In responding to the question, did you answer no so as to make it more likely that you would be selected for the jury? 4 A. No, your Honor. 5 Q. Did your history of sexual abuse motivate you, again, to try to tailor this answer to make it more likely that you would be selected for the jury? 6 A. No, your Honor, I wasn't even thinking about that. 7 Q. I am going to return to the topic of the process for filling out the questionnaire, and you have spoken to that some and I will give you as much space as you want to respond. Just by background, you were summoned to appear for jury duty on the morning of November 4, is that correct? 8 A. Yes, your Honor. 9 Q. And when did you learn you would be filling out a questionnaire? 10 A. When we got to the courtroom. 11 Q. When did you learn the case for which you were being considered as a juror? 12 A. Three hours after sitting in that chair. 13 Q. And how long did it take you to fill out the questionnaire? 14 A. It's a great question. I don't recall how long it took, but I want to say we were done by around noon or a little after SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010232 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 18 of 50 M38TMAX1 1 noon. 2 Q. Were you rushed in any way? 3 A. I felt rushed only because of all the commotion going on in 4 front of me and everybody else just going by on both sides. 5 Q. And how did that make you feel rushed? 6 A. It made me -- growing up in school I never wanted to be the 7 last one finished. You want to finish your test and go hang 8 out with your friends. So it's kinds of that same policy, I 9 just wanted -- everyone else is finishing and I'm like: Why am 10 I still reading this? I'm like: I'm never going to get 11 chosen, let's get this done with. 12 Q. Would you say you approached the filling out of the 13 questionnaire with diligence? 14 A. Looking back on it now, no, your Honor. 15 Q. Were you concerned with following my instructions? 16 A. Absolutely not. 17 Q. You were not concerned with following my instructions? 18 A. No, I really -- this is a terrible excuse, but I didn't 19 really think I would be chosen. 20 Q. Some of the questions required follow up depending on 21 whether a yes or no answer was provided. Do you recall that? 22 A. Yes, your Honor. 23 Q. And we'll take a quick look at two examples, question 9 on 24 page 8, question 9 and 9A and question 10 and 10A. 25 Question 9 asked whether your beliefs would make you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010233 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 19 of 50 19 M38TMAX1 1 unable to render a verdict. You checked no. 9A said: If yes, please explain. You left that blank. So that question, if a yes response called for explanation, you didn't provide an explanation because you checked no. 2 3 The next question 10 asked about principles of law and whether you would accept them if selected to serve on the jury, and you said yes. 10A said: If no, please explain. And you followed that instruction and didn't provide an explanation because you had said yes. 4 5 You recall there were a number of questions that sometimes called for explanation and sometimes didn't? 6 A. Yes, your Honor. 7 8 Q. So how did you know whether to include follow-up answers? 9 A. So these questions are in the beginning where I had more focus than I did at the end and less distractions, so it was easier to follow along, like these are the first few questions. 10 It is a pretty thick packet, there's a binder of questions, so at this point I was still, I guess, in focus and in the zone and knew how to respond to these questions I guess accurately at this part. 11 Q. Actually throughout the questionnaire you appeared to have followed the instructions with respect to follow-up questions. 12 A. Right. 13 Q. I reviewed a lot of questionnaires. Some people would provide follow-up when it wasn't called for or not provide 14 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 15 DOJ-OGR-00010234 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 20 of 50 M38TMAX1 1 follow-up when it was called for. Your questionnaire seems to 2 follow the instructions throughout. It appears generally that 3 you read and followed the instructions within each question. 4 So how do you reconcile that with what you just testified to 5 that you were distracted, raced through? 6 A. Pretty simply, because you see your answer, you mark a no, 7 then the next question says "if yes." Well, I marked no, so 8 skip, go to the next question. So that's what I'm talking 9 about when I flew through, I skimmed, I didn't read everything. 10 So if I had just marked no and it says "if yes," immediately 11 move on. 12 Q. Just to return to 48 now, sorry to go back, first you told 13 me it was a good question, how long it took you to fill it out, 14 and then you said you couldn't remember. I want to go back. I 15 think you said you were finished by noon. Do you remember what 16 time you started the questionnaire? 17 A. It had to be around 11-something. Again, I don't know, 18 I -- 19 Q. I'm not sure that clock works. 20 A. Yeah, I don't remember seeing -- obviously that clock is in 21 the back and I was facing the front of the courtroom that we 22 were in, so I wouldn't have even seen that clock. But I feel 23 like the room we were in was much larger than this one, and I 24 don't know what time I started. It definitely felt like we 25 were there for hours before even seeing your video and then SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 21 of 50 21 M38TMAX1 given the questionnaire. Q. You say, if you had to estimate, an hour to fill out the questionnaire? A. Maybe. I think that would be accurate. Q. And to return to 48, so you just said it was pretty easy to, if yes, explain, if no, explain, so you skimmed through that. Looking again at 48, which has sort of a lot of white space for the answer there, do you see that? A. Yes, your Honor. Q. And again, this is how many of the questions were structured: Check box yes self, yes friend or family, or no. Tell me again your thought process and how you understood the yes self, and yes friend or family. A. I just read the friend or family, again, like distracted, so I missed that "have you," and then "yes self" while reading this question. Q. At the time you were filling this out, were you surprised the questionnaire asked about friend and family but not about you? A. I didn't honestly think about it. Q. At the time you filled out the questionnaire, did you think that your history of sexual abuse would be something that the parties and I would want to know in order to determine if you could be fair and impartial? A. Looking back thinking now, yes, that's a question that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010236 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 22 of 50 22 M38TMAX1 would have been asked, but I honestly didn't think about it. I really don't think about my sexual abuse, period. I don't tell very many people. Q. After the trial you gave interviews in which you did tell people about our history of sexual abuse. A. Yes. Q. How do you reconcile what you just said with that? A. So I didn't -- this is going back to a deliberation thing, so I have to think about how to say this. Q. Well, I don't want you to talk about deliberations. A. Right. Q. If you can, you just said you don't talk about it, but -- A. I didn't talk about my abuse, I only said that -- I only used it in order to talk to a reporter about jury deliberations, I didn't use it in order to insert anything. I just gave that as to why I believe a certain way based on all the evidence that was provided during the trial. Q. I suppose that the question is: You were prepared for the public and you knew the public paid a lot of attention to this case, you were giving national and international media interviews, you were prepared for your history of sexual abuse to be widely known. A. Right, but not something -- I didn't think this would happen, like I didn't lie in order to get on this jury and then go to the press and tell them about my abuse. It just -- it's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010237 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 23 of 50 M38TMAX1 23 a little illogical thinking about it, like if I lied deliberately I wouldn't have told a soul. I certainly wouldn't have put myself in a position to where I could -- this position that I'm in now, potentially any sort of criminal charges, I just wouldn't have done it. It was an honest mistake and one of the biggest mistakes, and again, I apologize for wasting a lot of people's time and money, and this is never anything that I intended or did on purpose. Q. I understand your point, I still want to just make sure I understand as someone who is filling out the questionnaire and sort of walking through life and doesn't think about the history of sexual abuse and talk about it, at the same time you were prepared for the world to know about it. Tell me how to make sense of that. A. It was only how I view things and how I can recall memories, that's it. I didn't talk about my abuse, I just said I can remember things and recall things, like the color of the wall or -- Q. Did you think about the fact that many people would learn from your interview that you had this history of sexual abuse? A. No, I did not. Q. You didn't think about that? A. No, I did not think that anybody -- certainly my family or friends would find this out. Q. Friends weren't following the news of the case after you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010238 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 24 of 50 M38TMAX1 indicated you had been a juror on it? A. I don't know if they were following the news of the case, but I have had some conversations about it with my friends afterward, but most people don't even know. It's not like -- I didn't know much about it either. Sexual abuse isn't a topic that I really want to research or learn about or watch about frequently. Q. You did understand from your interviews that the fact that you were abused would be a known fact in the world. A. Yes, your Honor. Q. And did you make a conscious decision that you were okay with that? A. Yes, your Honor. After sitting on this trial for several weeks and seeing the victims be brave enough to give their story, I felt like if they can do it, then so can I. I didn't have to divulge any of the details that happened to me, I focused on the memory aspect. Q. Okay. What I'm going to do now is I'm going to take us back in time to not November 4 but November 16, 2021. That's when I questioned you individually in that process that I suspect now you know is called voir dire. You recall that process? A. Yes, your Honor. Q. At that time I asked you some follow-up questions based on your responses to the questionnaire and some additional SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010239 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 25 of 50 M38TMAX1 1 questions. Do you recall that? 2 A. Yes, your Honor. 3 Q. So if you had filled out your questionnaire accurately as 4 to 48 and 25 and 49, I would have asked additional questions 5 that day. So what I'm going to do is ask you those questions 6 now. 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. And I need you to answer honestly as to how you would have 9 answered on November 16 if you had answered the questions 25, 10 48 and 49 accurately. Do you understand that? 11 A. Yes, your Honor. 12 Q. And again, I'm not asking for your thought process during 13 deliberations or anything about jury deliberations, I'm asking 14 you to go back to that time and if you had answered these 15 questions accurately, how would you have responded to my follow 16 ups. Okay? 17 So at the time I asked you questions on November 16, 18 and if you had answered the questions accurately, did you 19 believe there was anything about your prior experience with 20 sexual abuse that would affect your ability to be a fair and 21 impartial juror? 22 A. No, it would not affect me in any way. 23 Q. At the time I asked you the questions, if you had answered 24 the questions accurately, did you believe there was anything 25 about your experience with sexual abuse that would have SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010240 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 26 of 50 M38TMAX1 affected your ability to render a verdict based solely on the evidence presented at trial and my instructions as to the law? A. Yeah. No, your Honor, I would be able to review the evidence based solely on the evidence. Q. Okay. At the time I asked you questions, and if you answered accurately, did you believe there's anything about your experience with prior sexual abuse that would interfere with your ability to assess the credibility of witnesses alleging sexual abuse? A. Absolutely in no way. Q. So at the time did you believe that you would be able to conclude that a witness alleging sexual abuse was not testifying truthfully if that was what the evidence suggested? A. Correct, your Honor, yes, I did. Q. At the time I asked you questions on November 16, did you harbor any bias against Ms. Maxwell? A. Not at all. Q. At the time I asked you questions on November 16, were with you biased in favor of the government or the prosecution? A. Not at all, your Honor. Q. Did you want to put your thumb on the scale in any direction? A. No. Q. At the time I asked you questions, and in light of your experience with sexual abuse, did you believe that the subject SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010241 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 27 of 50 27 M38TMAX1 matter of the case would upset you in such a way that would distract you from your duty as a juror? A. No, your Honor. Q. Would you be thinking about your own experience in a way that would prevent you from being fair or impartial? A. No, your Honor. Q. At the time I asked you questions on November 16, and in light of your experience with sexual abuse, did you believe that issues of reporting or not reporting sexual abuse that might be discussed at trial would interfere with your ability to be fair or impartial as a juror in the case? A. No, your Honor. Q. At the time I asked you questions on November 16, and if you had answered accurately and based on your experience with sexual abuse, did you have any doubt as to your ability to be fair to both sides? A. No, your Honor, no doubt. THE COURT: All right. I will meet with counsel at sidebar. (At sidebar) THE COURT: I will give you an opportunity to propose follow-up questions in light of his responses to questions of counsel. MS. MODE: Yes, your Honor, just one proposal. I believe the Court asked Juror 50 about the way in which he SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010242 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 28 of 50 28 M38TMAX1 approached the questionnaire process, whether he took the Court's instructions seriously. We would just propose asking parallel questions about the questions he was asked in person, in particular because the juror was asked during voir dire similar questions about questions of bias for or against the government, impartiality. And so to clarify the record, whether he took answering those questions in person seriously and answered truthfully. MS. STERNHEIM: Could we have a moment? THE COURT: You may. (Pause) MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, I think there was several areas of follow-up here that are warranted. First, the juror made some reference to his healing process. I couldn't quite understand what he said at the time, something about how he views himself as a victim or not as a victim of a crime. I think we need to understand his healing process and what he has gone through, because that affects his ability to be an impartial juror in a case involving sexual abuse. Is this something that he still is seeking treatment for? Is this something he is still thinking? How he deals with the healing process and how he thinks about himself as a victim affects how he views the victim witnesses in this case, and I think there ought to be more questions about that. THE COURT: What's the proposed question? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 29 of 50 M38TMAX1 1 MR. EVERDELL: What was -- we gave a number of those in our submissions, but: You talked publicly about the fact that you were in therapy, what was the nature of the therapy? Does it deal with your experiences as victim of sexual abuse? What was the healing process that you talked about? Describe this healing process for me. Does it involve addressing this issue of prior child sexual abuse? Were you in therapy during the trial? Is this an issue that you are still dealing with? THE COURT: I did review those questions proposed and I considered them. The defense did not propose any comparable questions for jurors during the voir dire process who indicated yes to this question and indicated a history of sexual abuse, so those requests are denied. Any other follow-up requests? MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, I think we need to talk further about the nature of abuse. We talked about the fact this was repeated, happened multiple times. This happened with more than one person, a stepbrother and a friend. I think we need to understand because -- I'm not trying to pry, your Honor, I'm not trying to get into these gory details, but it is relevant, the extent of the similarities of this juror's abuse and whether that lines up with the testimony we heard from the victims is relevant in an inquiry to bias. And I think we need to understand a little more about similar questions that we asked -- we proposed to the Court in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010244 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 30 of 50 30 M38TMAX1 our follow up: How long did this go on? When did it stop? Were you home when this happened? What was the interaction between you and the abusers and family members? These are all things that go to the similarity. THE COURT: I have the same response. I considered those questions. We had, I think it was Juror 21 who had talked about familial abuse. The defense didn't propose any comparable follow-up questions. The questions went to the core questions of impartiality and fairness. The defense didn't request those questions and they didn't move to strike for cause. Here, there's dissimilarity of age; for example, younger than some of the proposed jurors, some of the inquired-into jurors who indicated yes, the defense didn't request follow up as to the specific similarities and the like, and I don't think I would have asked them because the bottom line questions are what is in issue. So that request is denied. Any other proposed follow up? MR. EVERDELL: Yes, I have a few more. MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, you have asked certain things about the questionnaire, but I do not believe that you asked about the summary of the case which specifically says what this case is about, it is about sexual abuse of a minor, and did he just fly through that as well? It is clear that this juror has supplemented -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010245 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 31 of 50 31 M38TMAX1 1 THE COURT: Make your arguments in briefing 2 afterwards, if you're doing that. I want specific proposed 3 questions in light of responses. 4 MS. STERNHEIM: I know your Honor did not want to get 5 into what happened in the jury room, but a couple of -- 6 THE COURT: I'm not permitted to get into that. 7 MS. STERNHEIM: You are permitted to discuss what he 8 stated publicly, and publicly he said that he -- 9 THE COURT: You misunderstand the law, or I do, but I 10 have written an analysis of that issue in my opinion. That he 11 revealed what happened in jury deliberations does not allow me 12 to accept, as part of this hearing, evidence of what he said in 13 jury deliberations. You may disagree with that legal analysis. 14 I have written extensively about it in my February 24 opinion. 15 I won't relitigate that now. 16 MS. STERNHEIM: He did not tell very many people about 17 it, then he told the world. 18 THE COURT: Right. I pressed repeatedly on that 19 issue. If you have a specific follow up that you would like me 20 to ask -- 21 MR. EVERDELL: I do have some follow up. He said he 22 didn't tell many people, but he also said he didn't think 23 people would learn about his history of sexual abuse, despite 24 the fact that he was telling reporters about that. We need to 25 ask him, I think, about his post to Annie Farmer where he says: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 32 of 50 M38TMAX1 1 Thanks for telling my story. So if he says: I didn't expect the world to hear about my sexual abuse, yet at the same time he's telling Annie Farmer, one of the victims in this case, post-trial, "Thanks for telling my story," that suggests to me that he wanted to be known as the victim of sexual abuse, he wanted to be seen as a champion of sexual abuse, and that this explanation that he is giving is simply false. 2 There's also the Facebook post that he made after the fact -- 3 THE COURT: Just a moment. I will ask him to explain, to reconcile that if he can, that he said he didn't think people would know about it with the fact that he went on social media and thanked one of the witnesses in the case. I will ask about that. 4 MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, he said this is a verdict for all of the victims, which I think includes himself. How does he reconcile that comment with the fact that he didn't want to share with the world that he himself was a victim of sexual abuse, meaning: I'm doing this for the victims of sexual abuse. That's clear import of that comment. I think that's a conflict. 5 There's also his Facebook posts after the fact where he says: I can now tell everybody that I was a juror on the Ghislaine Maxwell trial. What an incredible, surreal experience. Again, telling the world that I'm out here. 6 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010247 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 33 of 50 33 M38TMAX1 THE COURT: I will ask the question how does he reconcile the statement that he didn't think anyone would know with the fact that he was posting on social media. MR. EVERDELL: I think we also need some follow-up questions that we proposed in our letter about his belief about victim memory, because I think that goes to his ability to evaluate the evidence fairly and impartially. THE COURT: I will deny that. MR. EVERDELL: I believe also he said in his answers that he didn't hope to be on the jury but if he is going to be on a jury, it might as well be something interesting. I'm paraphrasing, but that's the import of his comment. I think we need some follow up about what he meant by that comment. Why was it that he found this interesting? Was it some reflection of the fact that it involved victims of sexual abuse, and because he was the victim of sexual abuse himself that made it interesting for him? THE COURT: I will ask him what he meant. MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, I may have an issue. I thought the last question about following your instructions, I think he said no. And insofar as saying no, how did he not follow your instructions after he filled out the questionnaire? THE COURT: Okay. I will ask that question and then I will ask the government's question about whether he followed my instructions during voir dire. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010248 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 34 of 50 34 M38TMAX1 1 MS. MODE: Thank you, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: And then I will -- 3 MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, I believe he mentioned something about his interview with the journalist Lucia, first name Lucia, and I was trying to follow his response, but he said something about: I didn't understand that this was an issue in the questionnaire. But I believe the reporting is that they discussed this at length, the consequences of him going public and the consequences of the fact that there was a jury questionnaire at issue here and there were answers to those questions that he would be talking about. I can't remember exactly what it is, but there was some discussion about the consequences of him going forward. And I believe what he said was: I didn't have any discussions or any lengthy discussions with the journalists about me coming forward and just answered their questions. But I believe there was a discussion with Lucia about the consequences, about whether he wants to do this, about -- I don't remember now -- 19 THE COURT: I don't understand what you're referring to. 20 to. 21 MR. EVERDELL: I think the issue is he was saying how he didn't expect to be public, he didn't expect to be known worldwide as a victim of sexual abuse, he didn't expect this come out, even though he's talking to journalists. My understanding is he had a discussion with Lucia, the journalist SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010249 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 35 of 50 35 M38TMAX1 from The Independent, about the consequences of him coming forward, which is: This is a momentous decision you're making. So I don't see how he squares his comments about I never thought by talking to the press that I would come forward and be known this way, when in fact I think there was a lengthy discussion he had with a journalist about this very fact. THE COURT: He said that he recognized by talking to the press about it that it would be known publicly. MR. EVERDELL: I think he may have said that, but I think at the same time he's saying I didn't think this would be known by my parents and my friends. I don't know how you square those responses. To me -- and I know this was the subject of argument that you don't want to hear at this point, but his responses are simply not credible on this point because he's talking out of both sides of his mouth: I didn't think I would be known, but yet I did know I would be known. It makes no sense to me. I'm curious to hear more about what I perceive as blatant conflict in answers about a discussion with a journalist about the consequences of going forward. THE COURT: You want me to ask about what he discussed with which journalist? MR. EVERDELL: Lucia, who I believe is The Independent journalist. So I would -- I'm sorry it's not coming out very focused, I apologize, but: You had discussed before in responses to my questions about the fact that you didn't think SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010250 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 36 of 50 36 M38TMAX1 that talking to a reporter would necessarily make you known to the world about -- your sexual abuse known to the world. If that wasn't something that truly entered your head, isn't it a fact that you spoke to Lucia, the reporter from The Independent that you spoke to, about the consequences that you might face in revealing all this stuff -- we won't get into jury deliberations -- about what you said to her about your sexual abuse and other things, there would be well-known consequences to what you were doing. How do you square those two thoughts in your head, which you didn't think it would be public, didn't think you would be known for this, and the journalist is telling you that very fact? MS. MOE: Your Honor, the government has no objection to limited follow-up questions about his understanding about whether it would become public. I do have concerns about the proposed question because it's confusing and a little cryptic. I don't know what the word "consequences" might mean in response to the question or what that's in particular driving at. I think, as the Court noted, he has already sort of explained his understanding about speaking publicly to a reporter and whether it would be publicly known that he was the victim of sexual abuse. There's also, I think, some tension between the Court's focused question about whether he understood it would become public that he was the victim of sexual abuse and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010251 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 37 of 50 37 M38TMAX1 further questions about his understanding about sort of the magnitude of press coverage arising from the issue that gives rise to this hearing, which I believe he touched on as well. THE COURT: I think what I will do is go back and ask: Did you understand at the time you talked to the press in the way that you did, did you understand that it would be publicly known that you were a victim of sexual abuse? We'll see what he says. Did you think about the consequences of talking to the press about that? Did you talk to the press, the press reporter about the consequences? It's difficult for me to see what it's going at, but I will seek clarification on his answers, as I did multiple times, on the reconciling and understanding his thinking about coming out publicly as a victim of sexual abuse. He has explained some of the transformation process and the like. You can make your arguments about credibility. But I will go back and see if there's something to ask regarding talking to the reporter about the consequences. Which also there's a temporal issue here, he didn't think about it until he talked to the press, and in the course of that the press talked to him about the consequences and that changed his understanding potentially. MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. And I think yet a third point, talking about consequences today, I think Juror 50 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010252 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 38 of 50 38 M38TMAX1 rightly understands that question to be referring to whether he would understand he would be sitting in a courtroom like this. THE COURT: I will go back and try to get an understanding of what he thought would happen when talking to the press regarding his own sexual history regarding it being publicly known that he was someone who suffered from sexual abuse. MS. STERNHEIM: During the interview he mentioned question 48, and he said: I recall being asking about friend and family, and she said "it also asked about you," he turned beet red, and she said: You're turning beet red. He said: The blood is rushing to my head. THE COURT: She actually said: You're not on the stand. You misquoted it in the papers. MR. EVERDELL: Not in the sun. THE COURT: You're not in the sun, she said, you're not on the stand, don't worry, but yes. MS. STERNHEIM: What was going through his mind when she mentioned that the question included you? THE COURT: I will ask that. He talked about the first time he learned that the questionnaire had the question. MS. STERNHEIM: And last thing is: What was his motivation in speaking to the press and being interviewed? THE COURT: Those questions, what motivated him after trial, is not relevant to what was going on during the filling SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010253 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 39 of 50 39 M38TMAX1 out of the questionnaire and responding to the voir dire. I would ask questions about that, and I have, but what motivated him to talk to the press is not relevant to the inquiry. All right. Anything else? MS. MOE: Not from the government, your Honor, thank you. (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010254 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 40 of 50 M38YMAX2 (In open court) THE COURT: All right. I do have some additional questions, Juror 50. BY THE COURT: Q. I asked you whether you approached filling out the questionnaire with diligence. Can you recall that? A. Yes, your Honor. Q. And you indicated no and you wish you had and that sort of thing. And I asked you whether you took my instructions carefully in the questionnaire. Do you remember that? A. Yes, your Honor. Q. And your answer is no? Is that accurate? A. Yes, your Honor. Q. And to make sure I understand, why is that? Why didn't you take my instructions carefully? A. It was definitely inadvertent. Again, like I said, I began to float, fly through it, in order to get done. I was super distracted, and it just -- I don't know what happened. I just wanted to get done with it. Q. When you came back on November 16 for the follow-up questions, there was another instruction video. Do you recall that? A. Yes, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010255 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 41 of 50 41 M38YMAX2 1 Q. And when I asked you questions, those one-on-one questions, did you pay attention to the instructions at that time? 2 A. Yes, your Honor. 3 Q. Did you listen carefully to my questions? 4 A. Yes, your Honor. 5 Q. Do you have any doubt that you answered those questions accurately? 6 A. I answered every single one of those questions accurately. 7 Q. Might you have failed to pay attention to the specifics of the questions in any way? 8 A. Not at all, your Honor. 9 Q. And how do you know that, given how you approached the questionnaire? 10 A. Because it was a different situation. I wasn't distracted. There weren't things going on. I wasn't sitting there for hours. It was multiple weeks later. So, again, I wasn't -- at that point, I wasn't thinking about my ex. 11 Q. Would you say that you're distracted easily? 12 A. I think I can become distracted, but it had no effect me serving in the jury, on the jury, and listening to all the evidence given during the trial. 13 Q. And what was your approach to my instructions at various points? 14 A. It was to follow them. 15 Q. When you were testifying earlier -- and I asked you some SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 42 of 50 42 M38YMAX2 questions about this -- you said that you didn't think that your family or friends would learn that you were a victim of sexual abuse, despite the press interviews. Do I have that right? A. Yes, your Honor. Q. And why didn't you think that? A. Well, I wasn't using my full name. I'm also not ashamed about it. It's something that happened, and it's something that is relatively common that happened to multiple people throughout the world. Q. And we talked about this, but you understood that there was a high level of press and public attention to the case. Correct? A. Yes, your Honor. Q. Help me reconcile that you didn't think friends and family would learn about your sexual abuse with the fact that you were speaking publicly about it. A. The one thing that I can point to is that when my friends commented, texted me -- commented on my post, texted me about it, they didn't even know that this trial was even happening. So I figured a little article about a juror giving their experience wouldn't be record-breaking or really in the news at all. Q. So you couldn't see how they would find out about it? A. Yes, your Honor. That wasn't something that I was SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010257 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 43 of 50 43 M38YMAX2 intentionally planning to hide; right? So if somebody were to ask me if I was abused, I would say yes. Q. And otherwise -- well, let me ask you: You were posting on social media about your role as a juror. A. After the trial, yes. Q. So wouldn't your friends and family find out in that regard? A. It just -- I just said that I had served on the jury. I didn't say anything about it in it. Q. There was a communication with one of the witnesses in the case, Annie Farmer, on social media? A. That's right. Q. And you thanked her for sharing your story. A. Yes. Q. What did you mean by that? A. She just shared the article, and then I commented on it; that thank you for sharing my story because she said that I was brave enough to come forward, and so I thanked her for sharing hers as well. Q. So your friends who followed you there would see that. A. I don't have any followers. I think I had like two followers, and they were random things. Twitter is not something I normally use. So I had just randomly seen that she'd shared that. So I felt like I wanted to comment. Q. You testified, when I asked whether you hoped you'd be on SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010258 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 44 of 50 44 M38YMAX2 the jury, and you had said that you didn't think you would. And I asked you why, and I asked you if you hoped you would. And you said, well, I thought it would be interesting. If you were going to serve jury duty, this would be -- What did you mean you thought it would be interesting? A. So not everybody gets called for jury duty. Some people never get called in their entire lifetime. I figured if -- what I mean by that is this is something interesting. It's not like -- I don't know. Maybe a fraud case might be boring. I don't know. I just felt like this might be something interesting that keeps my attention. Q. I asked you when you first learned that the questionnaire included a history-of-sexual-abuse question. Do you remember that? A. Yes, your Honor. Q. And you told me during a videoed interview. A. Yes, your Honor. Q. Correct. What was your reaction when you learned that the questionnaire contained that question? A. Well, she asked me. And I was, like, they don't ask about your own personal abuse because it's what I believed. It's what I thought. It's what I read. I didn't know I had made a huge mistake like that, and that's why I responded that way. Q. And how did you feel? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010259 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 45 of 50 45 M38YMAX2 A. Well, number one, I was, like, did I just mess something up entirely? And I was embarrassed and sort of like shocked and didn't know that that was the full question. Q. I think at one point you said that you sort of didn't realize the extent to which your interviewing would kind of reverberate. I don't mean this process. But in terms of the public knowing that you had a history of sexual abuse, with any of the reporters you spoke to, did you talk through the consequences? A. No, your Honor. Q. And, again, I don't mean about this kind of process. But I just mean to speak about your history of sexual abuse. A. Correct. No, your Honor. THE COURT: I'll briefly meet with counsel. (At the sidebar) THE COURT: I want to make sure that I've accurately captured the follow-up questions that were requested and give you a final opportunity if you have any additional questions for followup. MS. POMERANTZ: Nothing further, your Honor. Thank you. MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, I had asked before if the Court could inquire about the summary of the case. He said he paid attention early on. He specifically said that the case was about sexual abuse. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010260 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 46 of 50 M38YMAX2 1 THE COURT: I don't understand what the question is. 2 MS. STERNHEIM: Well, you had read that. So you knew 3 what this case about, and that was in your mind when you were 4 answering the questionnaire. For him to say that -- 5 THE COURT: I don't want argument. 6 What question do you want me to ask? 7 MS. STERNHEIM: Did you read the summary of the case 8 and understand that the subject matter of this case -- 9 THE COURT: Well, I won't summarize it. I'll read the 10 whole thing and ask: "Did you understand that that was the 11 subject matter of the case?" 12 MS. STERNHEIM: Yes. 13 MS. POMERANTZ: No objection, your Honor. Thank you. 14 (In open court) 15 BY THE COURT: 16 Q. Returning to the questionnaire, it says, page 4. It's 17 actually the second page of the questionnaire. There were 18 documents that you took off when you filled it out. 19 I provided a summary of the case. 20 Do you recall that? 21 A. Yes, your Honor. 22 Q. The third paragraph down in that summary reads: "The 23 charges of the indictment stem from allegations that from at 24 least 1994 through 2004, the defendant conspired with and aided 25 and abetted Jeffrey Epstein to entice minors to travel to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010261 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 47 of 50 M38YMAX2 engage in criminal sexual activity, to transport minors to engage in criminal sexual activity, and to engage in sex trafficking of a minor." And then the next paragraph lays out of the specific counts. Do you recall if you read that summary of the case? A. Yes, your Honor. I did. Q. So what did you understand the case to be about? A. Just that, just what was written there. Q. And in reading that, did that cause you to think about your history of sexual abuse? A. It did not. Again, it's something that I don't think about. It happened so long ago. Again, it's not part of who I am. THE COURT: All right. You may step down. (Witness excused) THE COURT: Counsel, let me ask your proposals as to some briefing, if necessary, post-trial briefing. Government? MS. MOE: Your Honor, the government would respectfully propose that the parties submit letter briefing promptly following the hearing within the next few days. If I could just have a moment to confer with my colleagues about a specific date. Our general proposal would be to have a short and tight briefing schedule to resolve the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010262 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 48 of 50 M38YMAX2 issues from the hearing, but if I could just have one moment about a specific date. THE COURT: Okay. (Government counsel confer off the record) MS. MOE: Your Honor, the government would propose that we submit our letter briefing by Friday. MS. STERNHEIM: May I, Judge? THE COURT: Yes. I think your response on the other briefing is due on Friday. MS. STERNHEIM: And I am starting a trial, not that that is going to necessarily prolong our request. But I would ask for two weeks for us to submit our written submission. MS. MOE: Your Honor, the government respectfully submits that this issue has been prolonged in litigation. It has been briefed exhaustively. The only remaining issues are about Juror 50's testimony today and the inferences to be drawn, which is a very narrow and confined issue which can be resolved quickly and briefed quickly. MS. STERNHEIM: Your Honor, this is an incredibly important issue. We are not asking for -- THE COURT: I know it's incredibly important, Ms. Sternheim. That doesn't alter the fact of what there is to do. But let me look at the calendar. What date does your trial start, Ms. Sternheim? MS. STERNHEIM: The 16th. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 49 of 50 M38YMAX2 1 THE COURT: All right. I think simultaneous briefing is appropriate. For one, I have responsive briefing on the legal issues, and so really what we're talking about is argument following based on today's record. One week from today, the 15th. Simultaneous briefing, I don't care if you call it letter briefing or otherwise. As you know, all I care is that it's double-spaced so I can read it on my iPad. Fifteen pages max per side. Anything else from the government? MS. POMERANTZ: No, your Honor. Thank you. MS. STERNHEIM: Your Honor, I would just request that our submission of questions which was sent to chambers be made a part of this record. THE COURT: Yes. As I've said, I will docket everything. There's identifying information of Juror 50 in your submitted questions. So that needs to be redacted. But other than Juror 50 identifying information, the redactions for all materials, I believe, for all materials based on the post-trial briefing and the submitted questions can be publicly docketed. Is that correct? As well as my opinion had two lines of redactions. So I'll docket my opinion without redactions. I'll ask the parties to -- actually, I think we can handle the submitted questions, the redactions for identifying information. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010264 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 645 Filed 03/11/22 Page 50 of 50 M38YMAX2 1 The parties' briefing, I'll ask you to submit the 2 briefs with redactions only for protecting juror privacy and 3 juror identity. 4 Any reason not to do that by tomorrow? 5 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: By tomorrow? 7 MS. STERNHEIM: Yes. 8 THE COURT: Thank you. 9 So that will put everything on the record. As for 10 today's hearing, the only thing that's redacted is Juror 50's 11 name. And that's redacted on the immunity materials, as well 12 as Mr. Spodek's letter just indicated "Juror 50." 13 Anything further, Ms. Sternheim? 14 MS. STERNHEIM: Not at this time. 15 THE COURT: Ms. Moe? 16 MS. MOE: No, your Honor. Thank you. 17 THE COURT: All right. We're adjourned. 18 (Adjourned) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00010265