Document 753

Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 1 of 264 1423 LC7VMAX1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK -------------------------------x UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, v. 20 CR 330 (AJN) GHISLAINE MAXWELL, Defendant. Jury Trial -------------------------------x New York, N.Y. December 7, 2021 9:05 a.m. Before: HON. ALISON J. NATHAN, District Judge APPEARANCES DAMIAN WILLIAMS United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York BY: MAURENE COMEY ALISON MOE LARA POMERANTZ ANDREW ROHRBACH Assistant United States Attorneys HADDON MORGAN AND FOREMAN Attorneys for Defendant BY: JEFFREY S. PAGLIUCA LAURA A. MENNINGER -and- BOBBI C. STERNHEIM -and- COHEN & GRESSER BY: CHRISTIAN R. EVERDELL Also Present: Amanda Young, FBI Paul Byrne, NYPD Sunny Drescher, Paralegal, U.S. Attorney's Office Ann Lundberg, Paralegal, Haddon Morgan and Foreman SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013014 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 1 of 264 1423 LC7VMAX1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK -------------------------------x UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, v. 20 CR 330 (AJN) GHISLAINE MAXWELL, Defendant. Jury Trial -------------------------------x New York, N.Y. December 7, 2021 9:05 a.m. Before: HON. ALISON J. NATHAN, District Judge APPEARANCES DAMIAN WILLIAMS United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York BY: MAURENE COMEY ALISON MOE LARA POMERANTZ ANDREW ROHRBACH Assistant United States Attorneys HADDON MORGAN AND FOREMAN Attorneys for Defendant BY: JEFFREY S. PAGLIUCA LAURA A. MENNINGER -and- BOBBI C. STERNHEIM -and- COHEN & GRESSER BY: CHRISTIAN R. EVERDELL Also Present: Amanda Young, FBI Paul Byrne, NYPD Sunny Drescher, Paralegal, U.S. Attorney's Office Ann Lundberg, Paralegal, Haddon Morgan and Foreman SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018599 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 2 of 264 1424 LC7VMAX1 (Trial resumed; jury not present) THE COURT: Matters to take up. MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: Go ahead, Ms. Menninger. MS. MENNINGER: We learned early this morning through a disclosure by the government that they have spoken with witness Brian. THE COURT: I'm sorry, could you pull up the mic closer please. Thank you. MS. MENNINGER: That they had spoken with witness Brian, who was anticipated to testify today. Brian is the brother of witness Jane. THE COURT: Correct. MS. MENNINGER: You may recall, your Honor, we had litigation around prior consistent statements; and that Brian is being offered in part to report supposedly prior consistent statements with Jane. We had discussions about whether Jane would be subject to recall in order to be questioned about those particular prior consistent statements, should they be admitted. What we learned from the government early this morning is that after her testimony, Jane called Brian and discussed with Brian her testimony in court, in violation of the Court's sequestration order. She disclosed to him a document that she was shown on the stand during cross-examination; she gave her SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013015 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 2 of 264 1424 LC7VMAX1 (Trial resumed; jury not present) THE COURT: Matters to take up. MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: Go ahead, Ms. Menninger. MS. MENNINGER: We learned early this morning through a disclosure by the government that they have spoken with witness Brian. THE COURT: I'm sorry, could you pull up the mic closer please. Thank you. MS. MENNINGER: That they had spoken with witness Brian, who was anticipated to testify today. Brian is the brother of witness Jane. THE COURT: Correct. MS. MENNINGER: You may recall, your Honor, we had litigation around prior consistent statements; and that Brian is being offered in part to report supposedly prior consistent statements with Jane. We had discussions about whether Jane would be subject to recall in order to be questioned about those particular prior consistent statements, should they be admitted. What we learned from the government early this morning is that after her testimony, Jane called Brian and discussed with Brian her testimony in court, in violation of the Court's sequestration order. She disclosed to him a document that she was shown on the stand during cross-examination; she gave her SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018600 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 3 of 264 1425 LC7VMAX1 characterization of the defense attorney who cross-examined her, using an expletive that rhymes with "front." And that was told to this witness, who is anticipated to be testifying today, who is obviously also subject to the Court's sequestration order. I am very troubled and disturbed that witnesses who are still subject to recall are calling other witnesses that they know will be called to testify; that will be called to testify about their memories of events that happened years ago; and that they are disclosing to witnesses -- this witness -- what they experienced on the witness stand, including a document that they were shown, your Honor. I am asking the Court to forbid the witness Brian from being called, given this violation. At a minimum, your Honor, I would ask that there is a hearing outside the presence of the jury in which Brian is subject to examination by the Court as to exactly what happened during this phone call. Those are the two pieces of information that he reported to the government and was reported to us via some handwritten notes at about 2 this morning. That's my request, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. MS. MOE: Your Honor, there are only two legal principles at play here. The first is Rule 615 about excluding witnesses from a courtroom. Neither Brian nor Jane has been in the courtroom while other witnesses have testified. That rule SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013016 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 3 of 264 1425 LC7VMAX1 characterization of the defense attorney who cross-examined her, using an expletive that rhymes with "front." And that was told to this witness, who is anticipated to be testifying today, who is obviously also subject to the Court's sequestration order. I am very troubled and disturbed that witnesses who are still subject to recall are calling other witnesses that they know will be called to testify; that will be called to testify about their memories of events that happened years ago; and that they are disclosing to witnesses -- this witness -- what they experienced on the witness stand, including a document that they were shown, your Honor. I am asking the Court to forbid the witness Brian from being called, given this violation. At a minimum, your Honor, I would ask that there is a hearing outside the presence of the jury in which Brian is subject to examination by the Court as to exactly what happened during this phone call. Those are the two pieces of information that he reported to the government and was reported to us via some handwritten notes at about 2 this morning. That's my request, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. MS. MOE: Your Honor, there are only two legal principles at play here. The first is Rule 615 about excluding witnesses from a courtroom. Neither Brian nor Jane has been in the courtroom while other witnesses have testified. That rule SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018601 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 4 of 264 1426 LC7VMAX1 1 has been fully complied with. 2 The other legal principle is that the government 3 cannot have substantive communications with Jane because she is 4 subject to recross about prior consistent statements. We have 5 not violated that legal principle either. 6 With respect to communications between Jane and Brian, 7 we have disclosed our awareness of that and defense counsel is 8 free to cross-examine Brian about those communications; that's 9 all the law requires. There is no sequestration order that 10 prevents family members from talking to one another; of course, 11 it's not best practice. 12 THE COURT: Did the government give any guidance? 13 Just on the first point, witnesses sequestered, so not 14 in the courtroom, could they be provided by another witness or 15 an attorney the transcript of the trial testimony? 16 MS. MOE: I have no awareness of whether that's 17 occurred, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: No, it's just to test the boundaries of 19 what you suggested in the first point, which is the only 20 question is whether they observed trial or not. And I don't 21 think -- I think that strikes me, I haven't looked at the law 22 on this, as an overstatement. 23 For example, I don't think a witness could be 24 provided, consistent with a sequestration order, the transcript 25 of trial testimony; and I wondered if the government agreed SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013017 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 4 of 264 1426 LC7VMAX1 1 has been fully complied with. 2 The other legal principle is that the government 3 cannot have substantive communications with Jane because she is 4 subject to recross about prior consistent statements. We have 5 not violated that legal principle either. 6 With respect to communications between Jane and Brian, 7 we have disclosed our awareness of that and defense counsel is 8 free to cross-examine Brian about those communications; that's 9 all the law requires. There is no sequestration order that 10 prevents family members from talking to one another; of course, 11 it's not best practice. 12 THE COURT: Did the government give any guidance? 13 Just on the first point, witnesses sequestered, so not 14 in the courtroom, could they be provided by another witness or 15 an attorney the transcript of the trial testimony? 16 MS. MOE: I have no awareness of whether that's 17 occurred, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: No, it's just to test the boundaries of 19 what you suggested in the first point, which is the only 20 question is whether they observed trial or not. And I don't 21 think -- I think that strikes me, I haven't looked at the law 22 on this, as an overstatement. 23 For example, I don't think a witness could be 24 provided, consistent with a sequestration order, the transcript 25 of trial testimony; and I wondered if the government agreed SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018602 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 5 of 264 1427 LC7VMAX1 with that proposition. MS. MODE: Your Honor, I haven't looked at the law on that particular issue. That would strike me as sort of consistent with being in a courtroom to see the testimony. And I'm not aware of that occurring in this case; we certainly haven't been providing trial witnesses with transcripts of testimony. I'm not aware of any attorney doing that either. I think what we're talking about is a conversation between two siblings in which one sibling shared that her experience in court was unpleasant. THE COURT: Pull up the mic please. MS. MODE: Apologies, your Honor. I think what we're talking about here, your Honor, is a conversation between two siblings in which one sibling said she had an unpleasant experience in court; and that she was shown a document on the stand that was -- I don't know all the details of this conversation, just what's been relayed to me. THE COURT: Can I back up and ask if the government gave any direction in advance about not discussing trial testimony with other witnesses, which I think probably would constitute best practices. MS. MODE: Yes, your Honor. Following Jane's testimony, I spoke with her attorney. I don't want to make a representation that's not accurate. My memory of that conversation is that I told him and reminded him SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013018 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 5 of 264 1427 LC7VMAX1 with that proposition. MS. MODE: Your Honor, I haven't looked at the law on that particular issue. That would strike me as sort of consistent with being in a courtroom to see the testimony. And I'm not aware of that occurring in this case; we certainly haven't been providing trial witnesses with transcripts of testimony. I'm not aware of any attorney doing that either. I think what we're talking about is a conversation between two siblings in which one sibling shared that her experience in court was unpleasant. THE COURT: Pull up the mic please. MS. MODE: Apologies, your Honor. I think what we're talking about here, your Honor, is a conversation between two siblings in which one sibling said she had an unpleasant experience in court; and that she was shown a document on the stand that was -- I don't know all the details of this conversation, just what's been relayed to me. THE COURT: Can I back up and ask if the government gave any direction in advance about not discussing trial testimony with other witnesses, which I think probably would constitute best practices. MS. MODE: Yes, your Honor. Following Jane's testimony, I spoke with her attorney. I don't want to make a representation that's not accurate. My memory of that conversation is that I told him and reminded him SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018603 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 6 of 264 1428 LC7VMAX1 1 that she was potentially subject to recall and recross. And so 2 my understanding is that he understood the rules about that; 3 and that we couldn't speak with her; and that she was still a 4 trial witness subject to recall. I don't remember whether I 5 repeated, sort of, the ground rules about trial witnesses. 6 That's all I remember from that conversation, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: And did the government prior to trial 8 give -- was there any direction given on this issue -- since 9 this witness is being provided for prior consistent statements, 10 did the government give any direction either to the witnesses 11 or to their counsel that they ought not to confer in light of 12 the reason that the witness is being offered? 13 14 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 15 Off the top of my head, I can't point to a particular 16 date or a particular conversation; but it's our practice -- and 17 what we did in this case -- is to tell every witness that their 18 memory should be their memories and they shouldn't be talking 19 to other witnesses before the trial. So I'm confident we did 20 that in this case; I just can't remember a particular date of a 21 particular conversation, but we've been having those 22 conversations with all of our witnesses. 23 THE COURT: And how did the government learn about 24 this conversation? 25 MS. MOE: Last night we had a meeting with Brian. And he, unprompted, mentioned that he had heard from Jane that she SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 6 of 264 1428 LC7VMAX1 1 that she was potentially subject to recall and recross. And so 2 my understanding is that he understood the rules about that; 3 and that we couldn't speak with her; and that she was still a 4 trial witness subject to recall. I don't remember whether I 5 repeated, sort of, the ground rules about trial witnesses. 6 That's all I remember from that conversation, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: And did the government prior to trial 8 give -- was there any direction given on this issue -- since 9 this witness is being provided for prior consistent statements, 10 did the government give any direction either to the witnesses 11 or to their counsel that they ought not to confer in light of 12 the reason that the witness is being offered? 13 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 14 Off the top of my head, I can't point to a particular 15 date or a particular conversation; but it's our practice -- and 16 what we did in this case -- is to tell every witness that their 17 memory should be their memories and they shouldn't be talking 18 to other witnesses before the trial. So I'm confident we did 19 that in this case; I just can't remember a particular date of a 20 particular conversation, but we've been having those 21 conversations with all of our witnesses. 22 THE COURT: And how did the government learn about 23 this conversation? 24 MS. MOE: Last night we had a meeting with Brian. And 25 he, unprompted, mentioned that he had heard from Jane that she SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018604 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 7 of 264 1429 LC7VMAX1 1 had called him after her testimony and relayed that her 2 experience wasn't pleasant. 3 THE COURT: It sounds like maybe more than that it 4 wasn't pleasant; sounds like part of what was relayed -- that's 5 not the part that concerns me. Needless to say, the point 6 that's concerning is whether she coached him on her responses 7 so that his testimony regarding prior consistent statements 8 would show consistency. That's, I think, the only -- 9 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: I'm not sure there's any relevance -- 11 although it's concerning, I'm not sure there's any relevance to 12 a description of the process is unpleasant or that they did or 13 didn't like the lawyers and how they were treated. 14 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 15 On the subject of the prior consistent statement, I would note -- and the 3500 material reflects this -- that Brian 16 17 had relayed the substance of his testimony to the government 18 and it's memorialized in 3500 long before this conversation 19 happened. He has been on our witness list for some time; he's 20 met with the government long before this trial began. 21 And so to the extent there is any suggestion that his 22 testimony is prompted by a recent conversation with Jane during 23 the trial, that's belied by the record here, which is that he 24 has relayed to us those prior consistent statements 25 substantially in advance of the trial. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013020 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 7 of 264 1429 LC7VMAX1 1 had called him after her testimony and relayed that her 2 experience wasn't pleasant. 3 THE COURT: It sounds like maybe more than that it 4 wasn't pleasant; sounds like part of what was relayed -- that's 5 not the part that concerns me. Needless to say, the point 6 that's concerning is whether she coached him on her responses 7 so that his testimony regarding prior consistent statements 8 would show consistency. That's, I think, the only -- 9 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: I'm not sure there's any relevance -- 11 although it's concerning, I'm not sure there's any relevance to 12 a description of the process is unpleasant or that they did or 13 didn't like the lawyers and how they were treated. 14 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 15 On the subject of the prior consistent statement, I would note -- and the 3500 material reflects this -- that Brian 16 17 had relayed the substance of his testimony to the government 18 and it's memorialized in 3500 long before this conversation 19 happened. He has been on our witness list for some time; he's 20 met with the government long before this trial began. 21 And so to the extent there is any suggestion that his 22 testimony is prompted by a recent conversation with Jane during 23 the trial, that's belied by the record here, which is that he 24 has relayed to us those prior consistent statements 25 substantially in advance of the trial. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018605 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 8 of 264 1430 LC7VMAX1 1 With respect to his communications with Jane, we 2 memorialized what Brian told us about that in our notes and 3 provided them to defense; and so we've been transparent about 4 that. 5 I don't think those notes or that conversation in any 6 way suggests that witnesses are doing something improper or 7 that anyone is coaching anyone to say something in particular. 8 And again, this witness has been on the record with the 9 government about this issue long before the trial. 10 THE COURT: Well, obviously if I allow the testimony, 11 it's fair grounds for cross, needless to say. 12 MS. MOE: Of course, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: And where is he in the order of things 14 today? 15 MS. MOE: He would be the next witness after the 16 witness who's currently on the stand. 17 THE COURT: Ms. Menninger, so given the timing of 18 where we are, do you have any authority to support the 19 proposition that -- other than obviously it being fair grounds 20 for cross, that this is a violation of order or law that would 21 suggest a quite substantial remedy of excluding testimony? 22 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I have not had time to 23 research this. I think that the disclosure came in around 3 24 o'clock in the morning. And without revealing what time I got 25 up, I have not had time to research that question between when SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 8 of 264 1430 LC7VMAX1 1 With respect to his communications with Jane, we 2 memorialized what Brian told us about that in our notes and 3 provided them to defense; and so we've been transparent about 4 that. 5 I don't think those notes or that conversation in any 6 way suggests that witnesses are doing something improper or 7 that anyone is coaching anyone to say something in particular. 8 And again, this witness has been on the record with the 9 government about this issue long before the trial. 10 THE COURT: Well, obviously if I allow the testimony, 11 it's fair grounds for cross, needless to say. 12 MS. MOE: Of course, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: And where is he in the order of things 14 today? 15 MS. MOE: He would be the next witness after the 16 witness who's currently on the stand. 17 THE COURT: Ms. Menninger, so given the timing of 18 where we are, do you have any authority to support the 19 proposition that -- other than obviously it being fair grounds 20 for cross, that this is a violation of order or law that would 21 suggest a quite substantial remedy of excluding testimony? 22 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I have not had time to 23 research this. I think that the disclosure came in around 3 24 o'clock in the morning. And without revealing what time I got 25 up, I have not had time to research that question between when SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 9 of 264 1431 LC7VMAX1 1 I got up and when I came to court this morning. I have checked the Westlaw headnotes and there certainly are cases where witnesses are excluded for far more minor infractions than this. 2 3 4 5 THE COURT: But infractions of what? 6 MS. MENNINGER: A sequestration order like walked into a courtroom briefly, you know, or an agent was in the room and heard some of the confidential informant's testimony. That's what I've briefly learned from looking at headnotes, your Honor. 7 8 9 10 11 Part of my concern is that what you've just heard from the government is those are the two things that Brian volunteered to them. They said they don't know exactly what happened in this conversation. And for all we know, there's more to the conversation than what Brian volunteered, because they may have said, Oh, whoa, don't tell us anymore about that. 12 13 14 15 16 17 So that's one of the reasons why my request is to find out exactly what was communicated to him by Jane before he gets on the stand; and that, I would submit, is something that the Court could ask him about under oath outside the presence of the jury to determine exactly the scope of the violation here. 18 19 20 21 Because we only know of one document that she told him she had been shown on the stand. I don't know if she told -- 22 23 24 THE COURT: Do we know what document? 25 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013022 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 9 of 264 1431 LC7VMAX1 1 I got up and when I came to court this morning. I have checked the Westlaw headnotes and there certainly are cases where witnesses are excluded for far more minor infractions than this. 2 3 4 5 THE COURT: But infractions of what? 6 MS. MENNINGER: A sequestration order like walked into a courtroom briefly, you know, or an agent was in the room and heard some of the confidential informant's testimony. That's what I've briefly learned from looking at headnotes, your Honor. 7 8 9 10 11 Part of my concern is that what you've just heard from the government is those are the two things that Brian volunteered to them. They said they don't know exactly what happened in this conversation. And for all we know, there's more to the conversation than what Brian volunteered, because they may have said, Oh, whoa, don't tell us anymore about that. 12 13 14 15 16 17 So that's one of the reasons why my request is to find out exactly what was communicated to him by Jane before he gets on the stand; and that, I would submit, is something that the Court could ask him about under oath outside the presence of the jury to determine exactly the scope of the violation here. 18 19 20 21 Because we only know of one document that she told him she had been shown on the stand. I don't know if she told -- 22 23 24 THE COURT: Do we know what document? 25 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018607 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 10 of 264 LC7VMAX1 1432 1 He volunteered that it was the Interlochen application 2 that she was shown and was asked, as you know, questions about 3 on the stand. So whether there were other disclosures in that 4 conversation, they weren't written down in the notes. And I 5 suggest that maybe it is important to learn that information 6 before the Court makes a determination about exactly the 7 magnitude of the violation here, your Honor. 8 MS. MOE: Your Honor, I would direct the Court's 9 attention to our note on this, which is marked 3510-020. 10 THE COURT: Can I have it? 11 While Ms. Drescher is getting that, go ahead, Ms. Moe. 12 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. 13 The note reflects -- 14 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I have a paper copy, if 15 you'd like. 16 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 17 Go ahead, Ms. Moe. 18 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. 19 The note reflects in the middle of the page that Brian 20 told the government, after Jane testified, she called Brian. 21 Jane did not discuss her testimony. She just told Brian that 22 he should know that the defense attorney is a expletive; and he 23 should know that's what this will be like. Jane mentioned she 24 was shown an Interlochen application. 25 And on that score, your Honor, I would note that the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013023 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 10 of 264 1432 LC7VMAX1 He volunteered that it was the Interlochen application that she was shown and was asked, as you know, questions about on the stand. So whether there were other disclosures in that conversation, they weren't written down in the notes. And I suggest that maybe it is important to learn that information before the Court makes a determination about exactly the magnitude of the violation here, your Honor. MS. MOE: Your Honor, I would direct the Court's attention to our note on this, which is marked 3510-020. THE COURT: Can I have it? While Ms. Drescher is getting that, go ahead, Ms. Moe. MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. The note reflects -- MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I have a paper copy, if you'd like. THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Go ahead, Ms. Moe. MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. The note reflects in the middle of the page that Brian told the government, after Jane testified, she called Brian. Jane did not discuss her testimony. She just told Brian that he should know that the defense attorney is a expletive; and he should know that's what this will be like. Jane mentioned she was shown an Interlochen application. And on that score, your Honor, I would note that the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018608 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 11 of 264 1433 LC7VMAX1 1 Interlochen application is not the basis of any prior consistent statement. I don't anticipate asking him on direct about his Interlochen application at all. 2 3 MS. MENNINGER: The point is we don't know if that's the only thing she told him; that's just what he volunteered to the government. 4 5 THE COURT: All right. Let's do this. We'll have Brian not testify till after lunch. I think the first task is the government to fully inquire what Brian learned from Jane or anyone else about testimony that's taken place. 6 7 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 8 We'd be happy to have that conversation. 9 With respect to scheduling issues, just in terms of the sequencing today, I would note that we anticipate calling -- your Honor, if I could have just one moment. 10 THE COURT: Sure. 11 (Counsel conferred) 12 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. 13 I just wanted to think through a scheduling issue because we have a witness who will be testifying beginning probably later this morning, and that testimony may be fairly long. And for scheduling reasons, Brian had planned to fly home tomorrow; and so it may be, just depending on the sequencing of this issue, that we might request to call him out of order to accommodate that. But we can see how the timing 14 15 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013024 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 11 of 264 1433 LC7VMAX1 1 Interlochen application is not the basis of any prior consistent statement. I don't anticipate asking him on direct about his Interlochen application at all. 4 MS. MENNINGER: The point is we don't know if that's the only thing she told him; that's just what he volunteered to the government. 7 THE COURT: All right. Let's do this. We'll have Brian not testify till after lunch. I think the first task is the government to fully inquire what Brian learned from Jane or anyone else about testimony that's taken place. 11 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 12 We'd be happy to have that conversation. 13 With respect to scheduling issues, just in terms of the sequencing today, I would note that we anticipate calling -- your Honor, if I could have just one moment. 16 THE COURT: Sure. 17 (Counsel conferred) 18 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. 19 I just wanted to think through a scheduling issue because we have a witness who will be testifying beginning probably later this morning, and that testimony may be fairly long. And for scheduling reasons, Brian had planned to fly home tomorrow; and so it may be, just depending on the sequencing of this issue, that we might request to call him out of order to accommodate that. But we can see how the timing 25 of order to accommodate that. But we can see how the timing SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018609 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 12 of 264 LC7VMAX1 1434 going today and flag that later on. THE COURT: Well, we're not going to speed up Brian because he's planning to fly home today. The question is when we have sufficient time to inquire whether there's been an effective violation of the sequestration order and, if so, what the appropriate remedy for that is. So that's going to require a factual investigation by the government, and then legal analysis from both sides as to what an appropriate remedy is in light of what we learn factually. MS. MOE: Of course, your Honor. I just wanted to flag a scheduling concern. I certainly don't mean to expedite the issue. We'll thoroughly examine it. THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Menninger, is that -- MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: -- sufficient in light of where we are at the moment? MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. Other issues? MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. I also conferred with the government this morning in light of the briefing last night on Mr. Flatley's testimony. Because the letter that we received from the government is different from what I was told during a conferral on Friday on this topic. So I've tried to narrow the issues as I understand them to be. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013025 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 12 of 264 1434 LC7VMAX1 going today and flag that later on. THE COURT: Well, we're not going to speed up Brian because he's planning to fly home today. The question is when we have sufficient time to inquire whether there's been an effective violation of the sequestration order and, if so, what the appropriate remedy for that is. So that's going to require a factual investigation by the government, and then legal analysis from both sides as to what an appropriate remedy is in light of what we learn factually. MS. MOE: Of course, your Honor. I just wanted to flag a scheduling concern. I certainly don't mean to expedite the issue. We'll thoroughly examine it. THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Menninger, is that -- MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: -- sufficient in light of where we are at the moment? MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. Other issues? MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. I also conferred with the government this morning in light of the briefing last night on Mr. Flatley's testimony. Because the letter that we received from the government is different from what I was told during a conferral on Friday on this topic. So I've tried to narrow the issues as I understand them to be. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018610 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 13 of 264 1435 LC7VMAX1 Your Honor, with respect to any testimony that was in the November 26 disclosure, which I believe is not what was disclosed earlier in September, but most of it is what I would agree is factual testimony. If a document has metadata, any old person can right-click on it, look at the properties, and read what those properties are. There's only one portion of the November 26 disclosure that I believe treads into opinion expert land, and that is on the second page of the November 26 disclosure where Mr. Flatley will testify that he verified the accuracy of metadata by running a particular program. He will explain what metadata is, such as the file name and when the file was created, and where it can be stored in a computer system. Your Honor, if those are the only things that Mr. Flatley intends to testify about, then I think we're fine. It's the things that came in the disclosures on November -- there were more on November 26 that were not in this letter and there were things on December 3rd that were disclosed. If he is limited to those things that were put in the September 26 disclosure, I'm fine with that, your Honor. He also was not ever disclosed as a fact or expert witness with regard to CDs. The original notice and the supplemental notice all refer to his review of devices. So I believe that the government does not intend to put on evidence about CDs through him, but those are the two areas that I think SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013026 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 13 of 264 1435 LC7VMAX1 Your Honor, with respect to any testimony that was in the November 26 disclosure, which I believe is not what was disclosed earlier in September, but most of it is what I would agree is factual testimony. If a document has metadata, any old person can right-click on it, look at the properties, and read what those properties are. There's only one portion of the November 26 disclosure that I believe treads into opinion expert land, and that is on the second page of the November 26 disclosure where Mr. Flatley will testify that he verified the accuracy of metadata by running a particular program. He will explain what metadata is, such as the file name and when the file was created, and where it can be stored in a computer system. Your Honor, if those are the only things that Mr. Flatley intends to testify about, then I think we're fine. It's the things that came in the disclosures on November -- there were more on November 26 that were not in this letter and there were things on December 3rd that were disclosed. If he is limited to those things that were put in the September 26 disclosure, I'm fine with that, your Honor. He also was not ever disclosed as a fact or expert witness with regard to CDs. The original notice and the supplemental notice all refer to his review of devices. So I believe that the government does not intend to put on evidence about CDs through him, but those are the two areas that I think SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018611 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 14 of 264 1436 LC7VMAX1 1 we're down to, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, as I think our letter 4 indicated, we're quite surprised to receive the defendant's -- 5 THE COURT: Mr. Rohrbach, let's just get to the issue. 6 It sounds like it's narrowed to two things. Every letter I 7 get, it starts with, We're so surprised or this has already 8 been litigated. Let's just get to the issue. 9 MR. ROHRBACH: So, your Honor, I think we're in a 10 pretty good place then. Mr. Flatley is not going to go into 11 very much -- we obviously don't know exactly what Mr. Flatley 12 will say on the stand, but the questions and what we expect to 13 elicit should track the government's November 26 letter. And 14 so it sounds like if defense counsel doesn't have a problem 15 with what's in this letter, then there is no issue here for the 16 Court. 17 I'm not exactly sure what Ms. Menninger is referencing 18 with regard to CDs, but I think that we expect Mr. Flatley to 19 give purely fact testimony regarding CDs, and there's no expert 20 opinion at all involved there. To the extent that it's a late 21 disclosure of anything, it's just a factual view of Mr. Flatley 22 that is in the 3500 material that he may testify to. 23 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, on the CDs, apparently 24 Mr. Flatley intends to testify that a created date is the same 25 thing as a modified date. And also about once a file is burned SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013027 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 14 of 264 1436 LC7VMAX1 we're down to, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, as I think our letter indicated, we're quite surprised to receive the defendant's -- THE COURT: Mr. Rohrbach, let's just get to the issue. It sounds like it's narrowed to two things. Every letter I get, it starts with, We're so surprised or this has already been litigated. Let's just get to the issue. MR. ROHRBACH: So, your Honor, I think we're in a pretty good place then. Mr. Flatley is not going to go into very much -- we obviously don't know exactly what Mr. Flatley will say on the stand, but the questions and what we expect to elicit should track the government's November 26 letter. And so it sounds like if defense counsel doesn't have a problem with what's in this letter, then there is no issue here for the Court. I'm not exactly sure what Ms. Menninger is referencing with regard to CDs, but I think that we expect Mr. Flatley to give purely fact testimony regarding CDs, and there's no expert opinion at all involved there. To the extent that it's a late disclosure of anything, it's just a factual view of Mr. Flatley that is in the 3500 material that he may testify to. MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, on the CDs, apparently Mr. Flatley intends to testify that a created date is the same thing as a modified date. And also about once a file is burned SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018612 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 15 of 264 1437 LC7VMAX1 onto a CD, it can't be unburned. Those are, I think, what the government represented in their letter of last night he intended to talk about, which have never been disclosed to us as his intended testimony. MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, as we said in our letter last night, we don't intend to elicit those things on direct, but also those are factual pieces of knowledge that you can understand without having any specialized training or experience if you just have used a CD burner before. MS. MENNINGER: If it's not coming out on direct, your Honor, then I don't think it matters. THE COURT: Okay. MS. MENNINGER: But as to the other ones, I will just make an objection if there's something that's not in the November 26 letter. I think the government knows what their witness is going to say because they are going to ask him questions. And if it's a question that calls for things that weren't disclosed, then I'll bring it to the Court's attention. THE COURT: Okay. MR. ROHRBACH: That's fine, your Honor. THE COURT: I do want to press a little bit on the CD bit; because I want to know what in the government's mind would happen on cross that would lead the government to redirect with respect to the created date is the same as the modified date or once burned on CD, can't be unburned. I don't want to have the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013028 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 15 of 264 1437 LC7VMAX1 onto a CD, it can't be unburned. Those are, I think, what the government represented in their letter of last night he intended to talk about, which have never been disclosed to us as his intended testimony. MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, as we said in our letter last night, we don't intend to elicit those things on direct, but also those are factual pieces of knowledge that you can understand without having any specialized training or experience if you just have used a CD burner before. MS. MENNINGER: If it's not coming out on direct, your Honor, then I don't think it matters. THE COURT: Okay. MS. MENNINGER: But as to the other ones, I will just make an objection if there's something that's not in the November 26 letter. I think the government knows what their witness is going to say because they are going to ask him questions. And if it's a question that calls for things that weren't disclosed, then I'll bring it to the Court's attention. THE COURT: Okay. MR. ROHRBACH: That's fine, your Honor. THE COURT: I do want to press a little bit on the CD bit; because I want to know what in the government's mind would happen on cross that would lead the government to redirect with respect to the created date is the same as the modified date or once burned on CD, can't be unburned. I don't want to have the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018613 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 16 of 264 1438 LC7VMAX1 government being too cute here and saying we're not going to do it on direct, but you know full well you're going to do it on redirect. MR. ROHRBACH: Understood, your Honor. If I could confer with Ms. Pomerantz, she's putting it on; but I suspect it really is unlikely to come out on redirect at all. THE COURT: Okay. (Counsel conferred) MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, the government is not planning to talk with Mr. Flatley on direct about CDs. So it's hard to imagine what exactly would happen on cross that would make this an issue; but, of course, the government doesn't want to limit itself by promising under no circumstances will it elicit this information. THE COURT: Okay. So if you're not going to ask about CDs on direct, if he's not crossed on CDs, that's the end of the matter. MR. ROHRBACH: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: Ms. Menninger, does that get us where we need? MS. MENNINGER: That's fine, your Honor. Thank you. THE COURT: Okay. Great. Thank you both. All right. Well, it sounds like all that work we did on Flatley last night will just go in the can for future use. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013029 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 16 of 264 1438 LC7VMAX1 government being too cute here and saying we're not going to do it on direct, but you know full well you're going to do it on redirect. MR. ROHRBACH: Understood, your Honor. If I could confer with Ms. Pomerantz, she's putting it on; but I suspect it really is unlikely to come out on redirect at all. THE COURT: Okay. (Counsel conferred) MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, the government is not planning to talk with Mr. Flatley on direct about CDs. So it's hard to imagine what exactly would happen on cross that would make this an issue; but, of course, the government doesn't want to limit itself by promising under no circumstances will it elicit this information. THE COURT: Okay. So if you're not going to ask about CDs on direct, if he's not crossed on CDs, that's the end of the matter. MR. ROHRBACH: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: Ms. Menninger, does that get us where we need? MS. MENNINGER: That's fine, your Honor. Thank you. THE COURT: Okay. Great. Thank you both. All right. Well, it sounds like all that work we did on Flatley last night will just go in the can for future use. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018614 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 17 of 264 1439 LC7VMAX1 1 I think the only outstanding issue from yesterday is 2 the objection to Exhibit 309. I'm sustaining that objection on 3 401/403 grounds. 4 What else do we need? 5 MS. MENNINGER: Nothing else from the defense, your 6 Honor. 7 MS. MOE: Your Honor, may we briefly be heard at 8 sidebar about an issue relating to potential cross-examination 9 of Brian that implicates a privacy interest? 10 THE COURT: Okay. So this will be sealed; correct? 11 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: I do have a request for lengthy sealed 13 proceedings that we do them in the robing room because of the 14 physical taxing on the court reporter. So if you think it will 15 be short, we can do it here; if it will be more than five 16 minutes, we should do it in the robing room. 17 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 18 I believe this will be brief. 19 THE COURT: Okay. All right. 20 (Pages 1440 to 1443 SEALED) 21 (Continued on next page) 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013030 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 17 of 264 1439 LC7VMAX1 1 I think the only outstanding issue from yesterday is 2 the objection to Exhibit 309. I'm sustaining that objection on 3 401/403 grounds. 4 What else do we need? 5 MS. MENNINGER: Nothing else from the defense, your 6 Honor. 7 MS. MOE: Your Honor, may we briefly be heard at 8 sidebar about an issue relating to potential cross-examination 9 of Brian that implicates a privacy interest? 10 THE COURT: Okay. So this will be sealed; correct? 11 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: I do have a request for lengthy sealed 13 proceedings that we do them in the robing room because of the 14 physical taxing on the court reporter. So if you think it will 15 be short, we can do it here; if it will be more than five 16 minutes, we should do it in the robing room. 17 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 18 I believe this will be brief. 19 THE COURT: Okay. All right. 20 (Pages 1440 to 1443 SEALED) 21 (Continued on next page) 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018615 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 18 of 264 1444 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: All right. Just waiting to hear from 3 Ms. Williams, if we have all our jurors. 4 Bring in the jury. 5 Can we have the witness back on the stand. 6 MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Thank you. 8 (Jury present) 9 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury. Nice 10 to see you. Thank you again for being here right on time so we 11 can get started. I appreciate it. 12 Ms. Meder, you may remove your mask. And I remind you 13 you are under oath. 14 Ms. Comey, you may continue with your direct 15 examination. 16 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 17 KIMBERLY MEDER, 18 called as a witness by the Government, 19 having been previously duly sworn, testified as follows: 20 DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued) 21 BY MS. COMEY: 22 Q. Good morning. 23 A. Good morning. 24 Q. I'd like to pick up where we left off yesterday. 25 I think you had Government Exhibit 1101 in front of 26 27 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013031 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 18 of 264 1444 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: All right. Just waiting to hear from 3 Ms. Williams, if we have all our jurors. 4 Bring in the jury. 5 Can we have the witness back on the stand. 6 MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Thank you. 8 (Jury present) 9 THE COURT: Good morning, members of the jury. Nice 10 to see you. Thank you again for being here right on time so we 11 can get started. I appreciate it. 12 Ms. Meder, you may remove your mask. And I remind you 13 you are under oath. 14 Ms. Comey, you may continue with your direct 15 examination. 16 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 17 KIMBERLY MEDER, 18 called as a witness by the Government, 19 having been previously duly sworn, testified as follows: 20 DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued) 21 BY MS. COMEY: 22 Q. Good morning. 23 A. Good morning. 24 Q. I'd like to pick up where we left off yesterday. 25 I think you had Government Exhibit 1101 in front of 26 27 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018616 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 19 of 264 1445 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct you to use as an aid. Do you have that in front of you now? A. Yes. Q. And then we were talking about what was marked for identification as Government Exhibit 304. MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, will you please pull that up for the witness, the parties, and the Court. Q. Ms. Meder, do you recognize this? A. Yes. Q. What is it? A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. Q. And what was the 1B number that that CD was contained under? THE COURT: I'm sorry, could you pull the microphone a little bit closer. Thank you. Go ahead. A. 1B26. Q. And have you familiarized yourself with the physical appearance of Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein during this investigation? A. Yes. Q. Who do we see in this photograph? A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers Exhibit 304. MS. MENNINGER: Subject to the prior objections, your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013032 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 19 of 264 1445 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct you to use as an aid. Do you have that in front of you now? A. Yes. Q. And then we were talking about what was marked for identification as Government Exhibit 304. MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, will you please pull that up for the witness, the parties, and the Court. Q. Ms. Meder, do you recognize this? A. Yes. Q. What is it? A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. Q. And what was the 1B number that that CD was contained under? THE COURT: I'm sorry, could you pull the microphone a little bit closer. Thank you. Go ahead. A. 1B26. Q. And have you familiarized yourself with the physical appearance of Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein during this investigation? A. Yes. Q. Who do we see in this photograph? A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers Exhibit 304. MS. MENNINGER: Subject to the prior objections, your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018617 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 20 of 264 1446 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 Honor, no further objection. 2 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 3 GX-304 is admitted. You may publish. 4 (Government's Exhibit 304 received in evidence) 5 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 6 Q. And while this is published for the jury, could you please tell us who's on the left and who's on the right? 7 A. On the left, Ghislaine Maxwell; on the right, Jeffrey Epstein. 8 MS. COMEY: We can take that down. 9 Thank you, Ms. Drescher. 10 Can we now please pull up for the witness, the parties, and the Court Government Exhibit 306. 11 Q. Do you recognize this? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What is it? 14 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. 15 Q. And under what 1B number was that CD logged? 16 A. 1B26. 17 Q. Who's in this photograph? 18 A. Ghislaine Maxwell. 19 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. 20 MS. MENNINGER: No further objection. 21 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013033 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 20 of 264 1446 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 Honor, no further objection. 2 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 3 GX-304 is admitted. You may publish. 4 (Government's Exhibit 304 received in evidence) 5 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 6 Q. And while this is published for the jury, could you please tell us who's on the left and who's on the right? 7 A. On the left, Ghislaine Maxwell; on the right, Jeffrey Epstein. 8 MS. COMEY: We can take that down. 9 Thank you, Ms. Drescher. 10 Can we now please pull up for the witness, the parties, and the Court Government Exhibit 306. 11 Q. Do you recognize this? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What is it? 14 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. 15 Q. And under what 1B number was that CD logged? 16 A. 1B26. 17 Q. Who's in this photograph? 18 A. Ghislaine Maxwell. 19 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. 20 MS. MENNINGER: No further objection. 21 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018618 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 21 of 264 1447 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 THE COURT: Thank you. 2 GX-306 is admitted. You may publish. 3 (Government's Exhibit 306 received in evidence) 4 MS. MENNINGER: And your Honor I will have the same 5 for the rest of these just to save everyone's time. 6 THE COURT: Understand. 7 And your objections are preserved. 8 MS. COMEY: May we publish, your Honor? 9 THE COURT: You may. 10 MS. COMEY: Thank you. 11 We can take that down. Thank you, Ms. Drescher. 12 Let's go now please to what's been marked for 13 identification as Government Exhibit 307. Ms. Drescher, will 14 you please pull that up for the witness, the Court, and the 15 parties. 16 Q. Do you recognize this? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What is it? 19 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and 20 Maxwell investigation. 21 Q. What 1B number was that CD logged under? 22 A. 1B26. 23 Q. And who do we see in this photograph? 24 A. Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. 25 MS. COMEY: The government offers this in evidence. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013034 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 21 of 264 1447 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 THE COURT: Thank you. 2 GX-306 is admitted. You may publish. 3 (Government's Exhibit 306 received in evidence) 4 MS. MENNINGER: And your Honor I will have the same 5 for the rest of these just to save everyone's time. 6 THE COURT: Understand. 7 And your objections are preserved. 8 MS. COMEY: May we publish, your Honor? 9 THE COURT: You may. 10 MS. COMEY: Thank you. 11 We can take that down. Thank you, Ms. Drescher. 12 Let's go now please to what's been marked for 13 identification as Government Exhibit 307. Ms. Drescher, will 14 you please pull that up for the witness, the Court, and the 15 parties. 16 Q. Do you recognize this? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What is it? 19 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and 20 Maxwell investigation. 21 Q. What 1B number was that CD logged under? 22 A. 1B26. 23 Q. And who do we see in this photograph? 24 A. Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. 25 MS. COMEY: The government offers this in evidence. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018619 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 22 of 264 1448 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct THE COURT: GX-307 is admitted. (Government's Exhibit 307 received in evidence) MS. COMEY: May we publish? THE COURT: You may. MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. Q. Who do we see on the left and the right? A. On the left, Jeffrey Epstein; on the right, Ghislaine Maxwell. MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, would you now please pull up what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 320 just for the Court, the parties, and the witness. Q. Do you recognize this? A. Yes. Q. What is it? A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. Q. And under what 1B number was that CD? A. 1B75. Q. Who's in this photograph? A. Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. THE COURT: Without further objection, GX-320 is admitted. (Government's Exhibit 320 received in evidence) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013035 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 22 of 264 1448 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 THE COURT: GX-307 is admitted. 2 (Government's Exhibit 307 received in evidence) 3 MS. COMEY: May we publish? 4 THE COURT: You may. 5 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 6 Q. Who do we see on the left and the right? 7 A. On the left, Jeffrey Epstein; on the right, Ghislaine Maxwell. 8 9 MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, would you now please pull up what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 320 just for the Court, the parties, and the witness. 10 11 Q. Do you recognize this? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What is it? 14 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. 15 16 Q. And under what 1B number was that CD? 17 A. 1B75. 18 Q. Who's in this photograph? 19 A. Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. 20 21 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. 22 23 THE COURT: Without further objection, GX-320 is admitted. 24 (Government's Exhibit 320 received in evidence) 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018620 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 23 of 264 1449 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 MS. COMEY: May we publish? 2 THE COURT: You may. 3 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 4 Q. Who do we see on the left and the right in this photograph? 5 A. On the left, Jeffrey Epstein; on the right, Ghislaine Maxwell. 6 MS. COMEY: We can take that down. Thank you. 7 Let's go now, please, to Government Exhibit 321. 8 Ms. Drescher, would you please pull that up for the witness, the parties, and the Court. 9 Q. Do you recognize this? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What is it? 12 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. 13 Q. What 1B number was that CD logged under? 14 A. 1B75. 15 Q. Who's in this photograph? 16 A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. 17 MS. COMEY: The government offers this in evidence, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Consistent with the Court's rulings, GX-321 is admitted. 19 (Government's Exhibit 321 received in evidence) 20 MS. COMEY: May we publish please, your Honor. 21 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 22 DOJ-OGR-00013036 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 23 of 264 1449 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 MS. COMEY: May we publish? 2 THE COURT: You may. 3 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 4 Q. Who do we see on the left and the right in this photograph? 5 A. On the left, Jeffrey Epstein; on the right, Ghislaine Maxwell. 6 MS. COMEY: We can take that down. Thank you. 7 Let's go now, please, to Government Exhibit 321. 8 Ms. Drescher, would you please pull that up for the witness, the parties, and the Court. 9 Q. Do you recognize this? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What is it? 12 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. 13 Q. What 1B number was that CD logged under? 14 A. 1B75. 15 Q. Who's in this photograph? 16 A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. 17 MS. COMEY: The government offers this in evidence, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Consistent with the Court's rulings, GX-321 is admitted. 19 (Government's Exhibit 321 received in evidence) 20 MS. COMEY: May we publish please, your Honor. 21 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 22 DOJ-OGR-00018621 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 24 of 264 1450 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 THE COURT: You may. 2 MS. COMEY: Thank you. 3 Q. Who do we see on the left and who do we see on the right? 4 A. On the left, Ghislaine Maxwell; on the right, Jeffrey Epstein. 5 6 MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, let's go now, please, to 7 Government Exhibit 322 for the witness, the parties, and the 8 Court. 9 Q. Do you recognize this? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What is it? 12 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and 13 Maxwell investigation. 14 Q. What 1B number was that CD logged under? 15 A. 1B78. 16 Q. Who's in this photograph? 17 A. Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. 18 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in 19 evidence. 20 THE COURT: Okay. And I've ruled. GX-322 may be 21 admitted. 22 (Government's Exhibit 322 received in evidence) 23 THE COURT: And you may publish. 24 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 25 Q. Who's on the left and who is on the right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013037 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 24 of 264 1450 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 THE COURT: You may. 2 MS. COMEY: Thank you. 3 Q. Who do we see on the left and who do we see on the right? 4 A. On the left, Ghislaine Maxwell; on the right, Jeffrey Epstein. 5 6 MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, let's go now, please, to 7 Government Exhibit 322 for the witness, the parties, and the 8 Court. 9 Q. Do you recognize this? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What is it? 12 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and 13 Maxwell investigation. 14 Q. What 1B number was that CD logged under? 15 A. 1B78. 16 Q. Who's in this photograph? 17 A. Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. 18 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in 19 evidence. 20 THE COURT: Okay. And I've ruled. GX-322 may be 21 admitted. 22 (Government's Exhibit 322 received in evidence) 23 THE COURT: And you may publish. 24 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 25 Q. Who's on the left and who is on the right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018622 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 25 of 264 1451 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 A. On the left, Jeffrey Epstein; on the right, Ghislaine Maxwell. 2 3 MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, let's go now please to 4 Government Exhibit 324 just for the witness, the parties, and 5 the Court. 6 Q. Do you recognize this? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What is it? 9 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and 10 Maxwell investigation. 11 Q. Under what 1B number was that CD logged? 12 A. 1B19. 13 Q. Who's in this photograph? 14 A. Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. 15 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in 16 evidence. 17 THE COURT: Consistent with my ruling, GX-324 is 18 admitted. You may publish. 19 (Government's Exhibit 324 received in evidence) 20 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 21 Q. Who's on the left and who's on the right? 22 A. On the left, Jeffrey Epstein; on the right, Ghislaine 23 Maxwell. 24 MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, let's go now to Government 25 Exhibit 325, please, for the Court, the parties, and the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013038 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 25 of 264 1451 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 A. On the left, Jeffrey Epstein; on the right, Ghislaine Maxwell. 2 MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, let's go now please to 3 Government Exhibit 324 just for the witness, the parties, and 4 the Court. 5 Q. Do you recognize this? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What is it? 8 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and 9 Maxwell investigation. 10 Q. Under what 1B number was that CD logged? 11 A. 1B19. 12 Q. Who's in this photograph? 13 A. Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. 14 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in 15 evidence. 16 THE COURT: Consistent with my ruling, GX-324 is 17 admitted. You may publish. 18 (Government's Exhibit 324 received in evidence) 19 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 20 Q. Who's on the left and who's on the right? 21 A. On the left, Jeffrey Epstein; on the right, Ghislaine 22 Maxwell. 23 MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, let's go now to Government 24 Exhibit 325, please, for the Court, the parties, and the 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018623 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 26 of 264 1452 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 witness. 2 Q. Do you recognize this? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What is it? 5 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and 6 Maxwell investigation. 7 Q. Under what 1B number was that CD logged? 8 A. 1B75. 9 Q. Who's in this photograph? 10 A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. 11 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. 12 13 THE COURT: GX-325 is admitted. You may publish. 14 (Government's Exhibit 325 received in evidence) 15 16 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 17 Q. Who is on the left and who is on the right? 18 A. On the left, Ghislaine Maxwell; on the right, Jeffrey Epstein. 19 20 MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, we can now pull up what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 333, please, for the parties, the Court, and the witness. 21 22 Q. Do you recognize this? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What is it? 25 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013039 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 26 of 264 1452 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct witness. Q. Do you recognize this? A. Yes. Q. What is it? A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. Q. Under what 1B number was that CD logged? A. 1B75. Q. Who's in this photograph? A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. THE COURT: GX-325 is admitted. You may publish. (Government's Exhibit 325 received in evidence) MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. Q. Who is on the left and who is on the right? A. On the left, Ghislaine Maxwell; on the right, Jeffrey Epstein. MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, we can now pull up what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 333, please, for the parties, the Court, and the witness. Q. Do you recognize this? A. Yes. Q. What is it? A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018624 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 27 of 264 1453 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct Maxwell investigation. Q. Under what 1B number was the CD logged? A. 1B78. Q. Who is in this photograph? A. Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. THE COURT: And again, consistent with my rulings, GX-333 is admitted. You may publish. (Government's Exhibit 333 received in evidence) MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. Q. Who is on the left and who is on the right? A. On the left, Jeffrey Epstein; on the right, Ghislaine Maxwell. MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, let's now pull up, please, Government Exhibit 337 for the Court, the witness, and the parties. Q. Do you recognize this? A. Yes. Q. What is it? A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. Q. Under what 1B number was this CD logged? A. 1B63. Q. Who's in this photograph? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013040 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 27 of 264 1453 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct Maxwell investigation. Q. Under what 1B number was the CD logged? A. 1B78. Q. Who is in this photograph? A. Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. THE COURT: And again, consistent with my rulings, GX-333 is admitted. You may publish. (Government's Exhibit 333 received in evidence) MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. Q. Who is on the left and who is on the right? A. On the left, Jeffrey Epstein; on the right, Ghislaine Maxwell. MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, let's now pull up, please, Government Exhibit 337 for the Court, the witness, and the parties. Q. Do you recognize this? A. Yes. Q. What is it? A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. Q. Under what 1B number was this CD logged? A. 1B63. Q. Who's in this photograph? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018625 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 28 of 264 1454 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 A. Ghislaine Maxwell. 2 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. 3 THE COURT: And again, GX-337 is admitted consistent with my rulings. You may publish. 4 (Government's Exhibit 337 received in evidence) 5 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 6 Ms. Drescher, let's go now, please, to Government 7 Exhibit 340 for the witness, the parties, and the Court. 8 Q. Do you recognize this? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What is it? 11 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and 12 Maxwell investigation. 13 Q. Under what 1B number was that CD logged? 14 A. 1B63. 15 Q. Who is in this photograph? 16 A. Ghislaine Maxwell. 17 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in 18 evidence. 19 THE COURT: Consistent with my rulings, GX-340 is 20 admitted. You may publish. 21 (Government's Exhibit 340 received in evidence) 22 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 23 Ms. Drescher, let's go now, please, to Government 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013041 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 28 of 264 1454 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 A. Ghislaine Maxwell. 2 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. 3 THE COURT: And again, GX-337 is admitted consistent with my rulings. You may publish. 4 (Government's Exhibit 337 received in evidence) 5 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 6 Ms. Drescher, let's go now, please, to Government 7 Exhibit 340 for the witness, the parties, and the Court. 8 Q. Do you recognize this? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What is it? 11 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and 12 Maxwell investigation. 13 Q. Under what 1B number was that CD logged? 14 A. 1B63. 15 Q. Who is in this photograph? 16 A. Ghislaine Maxwell. 17 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in 18 evidence. 19 THE COURT: Consistent with my rulings, GX-340 is 20 admitted. You may publish. 21 (Government's Exhibit 340 received in evidence) 22 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 23 Ms. Drescher, let's go now, please, to Government 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018626 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 29 of 264 1455 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 Exhibit 341 for the witness, the Court, and the parties. 2 Q. Do you recognize this? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What is it? 5 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. 6 7 Q. Under what 1B number was that CD logged? 8 A. 1B63. 9 Q. And who are the people we see on the left and in the center in this photograph? 10 11 A. On the left, Ghislaine Maxwell; in the center, Jeffrey Epstein. 12 13 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. 14 15 THE COURT: Consistent with my rulings, GX-341 is admitted. 16 17 (Government's Exhibit 341 received in evidence) 18 MS. COMEY: May we publish, your Honor? 19 THE COURT: You may. 20 Q. And will you tell us one more time who's on the left? 21 A. Ghislaine Maxwell. 22 Q. And who's in the center? 23 A. Jeffrey Epstein. 24 MS. COMEY: Let's go now, please, Ms. Drescher, to 25 Government Exhibit 342 for the witness, the parties, and the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 29 of 264 1455 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct Exhibit 341 for the witness, the Court, and the parties. Q. Do you recognize this? A. Yes. Q. What is it? A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. Q. Under what 1B number was that CD logged? A. 1B63. Q. And who are the people we see on the left and in the center in this photograph? A. On the left, Ghislaine Maxwell; in the center, Jeffrey Epstein. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. THE COURT: Consistent with my rulings, GX-341 is admitted. (Government's Exhibit 341 received in evidence) MS. COMEY: May we publish, your Honor? THE COURT: You may. Q. And will you tell us one more time who's on the left? A. Ghislaine Maxwell. Q. And who's in the center? A. Jeffrey Epstein. MS. COMEY: Let's go now, please, Ms. Drescher, to Government Exhibit 342 for the witness, the parties, and the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 30 of 264 1456 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct Court. Q. Do you recognize this? A. Yes. Q. What is it? A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. Q. Under what 1B number was that CD logged? A. 1B63. Q. Who is in this photograph? A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. THE COURT: I don't think we discussed this one yesterday, so if you want to -- MS. MENNINGER: Subject to the same objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Understood. GX-342 is admitted. (Plaintiff's Exhibit 342 received in evidence) THE COURT: You may publish. Q. Who is on the left? A. Ghislaine Maxwell. Q. Who is on the right? A. Jeffrey Epstein. MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, let's go now, please, to Government Exhibit 343 for the witness, the Court, and the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013043 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 30 of 264 1456 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct Court. Q. Do you recognize this? A. Yes. Q. What is it? A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. Q. Under what 1B number was that CD logged? A. 1B63. Q. Who is in this photograph? A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. THE COURT: I don't think we discussed this one yesterday, so if you want to -- MS. MENNINGER: Subject to the same objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Understood. GX-342 is admitted. (Plaintiff's Exhibit 342 received in evidence) THE COURT: You may publish. Q. Who is on the left? A. Ghislaine Maxwell. Q. Who is on the right? A. Jeffrey Epstein. MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, let's go now, please, to Government Exhibit 343 for the witness, the Court, and the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018628 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 31 of 264 1457 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 parties. 2 Q. Do you recognize this? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What is it? 5 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. 6 7 Q. Under what 1B number was that CD logged? 8 A. 1B63. 9 Q. Who is in this photograph? 10 A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. 11 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. 12 13 MS. MENNINGER: Same objection and cumulative, your Honor. 14 15 THE COURT: Understood. GX-343 is admitted. 16 (Government's Exhibit 343 received in evidence) 17 THE COURT: Let me just ask, Ms. Comey, are there other ones I didn't see yesterday? 18 19 MS. COMEY: I don't believe so, your Honor. I didn't realize we had not discussed these yesterday. 20 21 THE COURT: My presumption is that there won't be, and so we'll move on. 22 23 MS. COMEY: May we publish, your Honor? 24 THE COURT: Yes, you may. 25 MS. COMEY: Thank you. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013044 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 31 of 264 1457 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 parties. 2 Q. Do you recognize this? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What is it? 5 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. 6 7 Q. Under what 1B number was that CD logged? 8 A. 1B63. 9 Q. Who is in this photograph? 10 A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. 11 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. 12 13 MS. MENNINGER: Same objection and cumulative, your Honor. 14 15 THE COURT: Understood. GX-343 is admitted. 16 (Government's Exhibit 343 received in evidence) 17 THE COURT: Let me just ask, Ms. Comey, are there other ones I didn't see yesterday? 18 19 MS. COMEY: I don't believe so, your Honor. I didn't realize we had not discussed these yesterday. 20 21 THE COURT: My presumption is that there won't be, and so we'll move on. 22 23 MS. COMEY: May we publish, your Honor? 24 THE COURT: Yes, you may. 25 MS. COMEY: Thank you. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018629 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 32 of 264 1458 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct BY MS. COMEY: Q. Who is on the left and who is on the right? A. On the left, Ghislaine Maxwell; on the right, Jeffrey Epstein. MS. COMEY: Let's go now to what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 347, please. Q. Do you recognize this? A. Yes. Q. What is it? A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. Q. Under what 1B number was this CD logged? A. 1B19. Q. Who is in this photograph? A. Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. THE COURT: Consistent with my ruling, GX-347 is admitted. You may publish. (Government's Exhibit 347 received in evidence) MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. Q. Who is on the left and who is on the right? A. On the left, Jeffrey Epstein; on the right, Ghislaine Maxwell. MS. COMEY: Let's go now, please, to what's been SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013045 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 32 of 264 1458 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 BY MS. COMEY: 2 Q. Who is on the left and who is on the right? 3 A. On the left, Ghislaine Maxwell; on the right, Jeffrey Epstein. 4 5 MS. COMEY: Let's go now to what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 347, please. 6 7 Q. Do you recognize this? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What is it? 10 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. 11 12 Q. Under what 1B number was this CD logged? 13 A. 1B19. 14 Q. Who is in this photograph? 15 A. Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. 16 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. 17 18 THE COURT: Consistent with my ruling, GX-347 is admitted. You may publish. 19 20 (Government's Exhibit 347 received in evidence) 21 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 22 Q. Who is on the left and who is on the right? 23 A. On the left, Jeffrey Epstein; on the right, Ghislaine Maxwell. 24 25 MS. COMEY: Let's go now, please, to what's been SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018630 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 33 of 264 1459 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 marked for identification as Government Exhibit 348. 2 Q. Do you recognize this? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What is it? 5 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. 6 7 Q. Under what 1B number was that CD logged? 8 A. 1B19. 9 Q. Who is in this photograph? 10 A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. 11 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. 12 13 THE COURT: Consistent with my ruling, GX-348 is admitted. You may publish. 14 15 (Government's Exhibit 348 received in evidence) 16 BY MS. COMEY: 17 Q. Who is on the left and who is on the right? 18 A. On the left, Ghislaine Maxwell; on the right, Jeffrey Epstein. 19 20 MS. COMEY: Let's go now please to Government Exhibit 314 for the witness, the Court, and the parties, Ms. Drescher. 21 22 Q. Do you recognize this? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What is it? 25 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013046 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 33 of 264 1459 LC7VMAX1 1 marked for identification as Government Exhibit 348. 2 Q. Do you recognize this? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What is it? 5 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and 6 Maxwell investigation. 7 Q. Under what 1B number was that CD logged? 8 A. 1B19. 9 Q. Who is in this photograph? 10 A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. 11 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in 12 evidence. 13 THE COURT: Consistent with my ruling, GX-348 is 14 admitted. You may publish. 15 (Government's Exhibit 348 received in evidence) 16 BY MS. COMEY: 17 Q. Who is on the left and who is on the right? 18 A. On the left, Ghislaine Maxwell; on the right, Jeffrey 19 Epstein. 20 MS. COMEY: Let's go now please to Government Exhibit 21 314 for the witness, the Court, and the parties, Ms. Drescher. 22 Q. Do you recognize this? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What is it? 25 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018631 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 34 of 264 1460 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct Maxwell investigation. Q. Under what 1B number was the CD logged? A. 1B75. Q. Who is in this photograph? A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. MS. COMEY: The government offers this in evidence, your Honor. THE COURT: Consistent with my ruling, GX-314 is admitted. You may publish. (Government's Exhibit 314 received in evidence) Q. Who is on the left, who's on the right? A. On the left, Ghislaine Maxwell; on the right, Jeffrey Epstein. MS. COMEY: Let's go now, please, Ms. Drescher, to Government Exhibit 317 for the witness, the Court, and the parties. Q. Do you recognize this? A. Yes. Q. What is it? A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. Q. Under what 1B number was the CD logged? A. 1B75. Q. Who is in this photograph? A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013047 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 34 of 264 1460 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct Maxwell investigation. Q. Under what 1B number was the CD logged? A. 1B75. Q. Who is in this photograph? A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. MS. COMEY: The government offers this in evidence, your Honor. THE COURT: Consistent with my ruling, GX-314 is admitted. You may publish. (Government's Exhibit 314 received in evidence) Q. Who is on the left, who's on the right? A. On the left, Ghislaine Maxwell; on the right, Jeffrey Epstein. MS. COMEY: Let's go now, please, Ms. Drescher, to Government Exhibit 317 for the witness, the Court, and the parties. Q. Do you recognize this? A. Yes. Q. What is it? A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. Q. Under what 1B number was the CD logged? A. 1B75. Q. Who is in this photograph? A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018632 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 35 of 264 1461 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 MS. COMEY: The government offers this in evidence, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Consistent with my ruling, GX-317 is admitted. You may publish. 3 (Government's Exhibit 317 received in evidence) 4 Q. Who is on the left and who is on the right? 5 A. On the left, Ghislaine Maxwell; on the right, Jeffrey Epstein. 6 MS. COMEY: Let's go now, please, Ms. Drescher, to Government Exhibit 318. 7 Q. Do you recognize this? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What is it? 10 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and Maxwell investigation. 11 Q. Under what 1B number was that CD logged? 12 A. 1B75. 13 Q. Who is in this photograph? 14 A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. 15 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence. 16 THE COURT: Consistent with my ruling, GX-318 is admitted. You may publish. 17 (Government's Exhibit 318 received in evidence) 18 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013048 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 35 of 264 1461 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 MS. COMEY: The government offers this in evidence, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Consistent with my ruling, GX-317 is 3 admitted. You may publish. 4 (Government's Exhibit 317 received in evidence) 5 Q. Who is on the left and who is on the right? 6 A. On the left, Ghislaine Maxwell; on the right, Jeffrey 7 Epstein. 8 MS. COMEY: Let's go now, please, Ms. Drescher, to 9 Government Exhibit 318. 10 Q. Do you recognize this? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What is it? 13 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and 14 Maxwell investigation. 15 Q. Under what 1B number was that CD logged? 16 A. 1B75. 17 Q. Who is in this photograph? 18 A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. 19 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in 20 evidence. 21 THE COURT: Consistent with my ruling, GX-318 is 22 admitted. You may publish. 23 (Government's Exhibit 318 received in evidence) 24 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018633 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 36 of 264 1462 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 Q. Once that's published, would you please tell us who's on the left and who's on the right. 2 3 A. On the left, Ghislaine Maxwell; on the right, Jeffrey Epstein. 4 5 MS. COMEY: Thank you, Ms. Drescher. We can take that 6 down. 7 Q. The last two exhibits I want to talk about are in the 8 binder up by you at the podium, Ms. Meder. I want to start 9 with what's been marked for identification as Government 10 Exhibit 313. Would you please turn to that in your binder. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you recognize that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What is it? 15 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and 16 Maxwell investigation. 17 Q. Under what 1B number was the CD logged? 18 A. 1B75. 19 Q. And who is in this photograph? 20 A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. 21 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this 22 exhibit under seal to protect the privacy of a party. 23 THE COURT: No objection? 24 MS. MENNINGER: No further objection. 25 THE COURT: No further objection. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013049 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 36 of 264 1462 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 Q. Once that's published, would you please tell us who's on the left and who's on the right. 2 A. On the left, Ghislaine Maxwell; on the right, Jeffrey Epstein. 3 MS. COMEY: Thank you, Ms. Drescher. We can take that 4 down. 5 Q. The last two exhibits I want to talk about are in the 6 binder up by you at the podium, Ms. Meder. I want to start 7 with what's been marked for identification as Government 8 Exhibit 313. Would you please turn to that in your binder. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you recognize that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What is it? 13 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and 14 Maxwell investigation. 15 Q. Under what 1B number was the CD logged? 16 A. 1B75. 17 Q. And who is in this photograph? 18 A. Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. 19 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this 20 exhibit under seal to protect the privacy of a party. 21 THE COURT: No objection? 22 MS. MENNINGER: No further objection. 23 THE COURT: No further objection. 24 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 25 DOJ-OGR-00018634 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 37 of 264 1463 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 No objection to sealing, I presume. 2 MS. MENNINGER: Correct. 3 THE COURT: Okay. GX-313 is admitted under seal to 4 protect the privacy of a party. 5 (Government's Exhibit 313 received in evidence) 6 MS. COMEY: And, your Honor, I think I'll proceed to 7 one more exhibit we'll propose under seal and then ask the 8 jurors to take a look in their binders, if that's all right 9 with your Honor. 10 THE COURT: That's okay with me. 11 MS. COMEY: Would you please now turn in your binder 12 to what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 13 332. 14 Q. Do you recognize this? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What is it? 17 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and 18 Maxwell investigation. 19 Q. Under what 1B number was that CD logged? 20 A. 1B26. 21 Q. During the course of this investigation, have you 22 familiarized yourself with the physical appearance of Virginia 23 Roberts? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Who is in this photograph? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013050 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 37 of 264 1463 LC7VMAX1 Meder - direct 1 No objection to sealing, I presume. 2 MS. MENNINGER: Correct. 3 THE COURT: Okay. GX-313 is admitted under seal to 4 protect the privacy of a party. 5 (Government's Exhibit 313 received in evidence) 6 MS. COMEY: And, your Honor, I think I'll proceed to 7 one more exhibit we'll propose under seal and then ask the 8 jurors to take a look in their binders, if that's all right 9 with your Honor. 10 THE COURT: That's okay with me. 11 MS. COMEY: Would you please now turn in your binder 12 to what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 13 332. 14 Q. Do you recognize this? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What is it? 17 A. It's a photo from a CD I reviewed from the Epstein and 18 Maxwell investigation. 19 Q. Under what 1B number was that CD logged? 20 A. 1B26. 21 Q. During the course of this investigation, have you 22 familiarized yourself with the physical appearance of Virginia 23 Roberts? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Who is in this photograph? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018635 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 38 of 264 1464 LC7VMAX1 Meder - cross 1 A. Virginia Roberts. 2 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this exhibit under seal to protect the privacy of a third party. 3 MS. MENNINGER: No further objection, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 332 is admitted, and it's admitted under seal to protect the privacy of the third party. 5 (Government's Exhibit 332 received in evidence) 6 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, at this time I would ask that 7 the jurors be permitted to look in their binders at what's now 8 been admitted under seal as Government Exhibit 313 and 332. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Jurors, you may look at GX-313 and 10 GX-332. And after you've viewed them, please place your 11 binders back on the ground. 12 MS. COMEY: And, your Honor, once the jurors have 13 reviewed those exhibits, I have no further questions. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 All right. Ms. Menninger, you may set up for cross. 16 All right. Thank you. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION 19 BY MS. MENNINGER: 20 Q. Good morning, Ms. Meder. Is that how you pronounce it? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You were testifying about some photographs that you copied 23 from CDs onto a computer; correct? 24 A. Correct. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013051 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 38 of 264 1464 LC7VMAX1 Meder - cross 1 A. Virginia Roberts. 2 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this exhibit under seal to protect the privacy of a third party. 3 MS. MENNINGER: No further objection, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 332 is admitted, and it's admitted under seal to protect the privacy of the third party. 5 (Government's Exhibit 332 received in evidence) 6 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, at this time I would ask that 7 the jurors be permitted to look in their binders at what's now 8 been admitted under seal as Government Exhibit 313 and 332. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Jurors, you may look at GX-313 and 10 GX-332. And after you've viewed them, please place your 11 binders back on the ground. 12 MS. COMEY: And, your Honor, once the jurors have 13 reviewed those exhibits, I have no further questions. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 All right. Ms. Menninger, you may set up for cross. 16 All right. Thank you. 17 18 CROSS-EXAMINATION 19 BY MS. MENNINGER: 20 Q. Good morning, Ms. Meder. Is that how you pronounce it? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You were testifying about some photographs that you copied 23 from CDs onto a computer; correct? 24 A. Correct. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018636 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 39 of 264 1465 LC7VMAX1 Meder - cross 1 Q. And then you reviewed those photographs; correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. And some of those photographs were shown to the jury today; correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Those CDs that you copied photographs from onto a computer, 6 those CDs were found all around the Epstein home; correct? 7 8 MS. COMEY: Objection. Foundation. 9 THE COURT: Sustained. 10 Q. Did you prepare for the government a location report for 11 the exhibits that were just shown to the jury? 12 A. I prepared a report showing the evidence item number of 13 where it came from. 14 Q. Within Mr. Epstein's house; correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. So you found which CDs were found in which room of 17 Mr. Epstein's house; correct? 18 A. Yes, according to the evidence item numbers. 19 Q. Right. So you weren't at the house when the CDs were 20 seized, right? 21 A. I was on both searches. 22 Q. You were on both searches? 23 A. I was. 24 Q. Okay. And so you personally compared the numbers of these 25 CDs to where they were located in Mr. Epstein's house, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013052 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 39 of 264 1465 LC7VMAX1 Meder - cross 1 Q. And then you reviewed those photographs; correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. And some of those photographs were shown to the jury today; correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Those CDs that you copied photographs from onto a computer, those CDs were found all around the Epstein home; correct? 6 MS. COMEY: Objection. Foundation. 7 THE COURT: Sustained. 8 Q. Did you prepare for the government a location report for the exhibits that were just shown to the jury? 9 A. I prepared a report showing the evidence item number of where it came from. 10 Q. Within Mr. Epstein's house; correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. So you found which CDs were found in which room of Mr. Epstein's house; correct? 13 A. Yes, according to the evidence item numbers. 14 Q. Right. So you weren't at the house when the CDs were seized, right? 15 A. I was on both searches. 16 Q. You were on both searches? 17 A. I was. 18 Q. Okay. And so you personally compared the numbers of these CDs to where they were located in Mr. Epstein's house, right? 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018637 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 40 of 264 1466 LC7VMAX1 Meder - cross 1 A. I confirmed the CD with the 1B numbers. 2 Q. And the 1B number was tied to a room in the house? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. You did that work for the government, right? 5 A. I confirmed it. 6 Q. And you gave that work product to the government? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. And so you know from the work that you did and gave to the government that some of these CDs were found in a closet on the third floor, for example? 9 10 A. I don't recall exact locations. I know the 1B numbers as corresponding to the testimony today. And I do not recall exact locations in the house. 11 12 Q. Do you know whether CDs were found in the third floor closet? 13 14 A. I know they were found in the house. Again, I don't remember the exact locations. 15 16 Q. Okay. So just from memory, you're not remembering where a particular CD was found? 17 18 A. Correct. 19 20 Q. Okay. And you do know that CDs were found around the house? 21 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. And you know that the CDs were found in different floors and in different places, different rooms? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013053 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 40 of 264 1466 LC7VMAX1 Meder - cross 1 A. I confirmed the CD with the 1B numbers. 2 Q. And the 1B number was tied to a room in the house? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. You did that work for the government, right? 5 A. I confirmed it. 6 Q. And you gave that work product to the government? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. And so you know from the work that you did and gave to the government that some of these CDs were found in a closet on the third floor, for example? 9 10 A. I don't recall exact locations. I know the 1B numbers as corresponding to the testimony today. And I do not recall exact locations in the house. 11 12 Q. Do you know whether CDs were found in the third floor closet? 13 14 A. I know they were found in the house. Again, I don't remember the exact locations. 15 16 Q. Okay. So just from memory, you're not remembering where a particular CD was found? 17 18 A. Correct. 19 20 Q. Okay. And you do know that CDs were found around the house? 21 22 A. Yes. 23 24 Q. And you know that the CDs were found in different floors and in different places, different rooms? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018638 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 41 of 264 1467 LC7VMAX1 Meder - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. None of the photos that you've been talking about, to your 3 knowledge, were displayed in the house, right? 4 A. I don't recall. 5 Q. They just came off of a CD? 6 A. I don't recall. 7 Q. Well, you've just testified about these CDs and taking the 8 photos off the CDs, right? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Okay. You didn't testify about any photos that were taken 11 off of a wall? 12 A. Correct. 13 (Continued on next page) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013054 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 41 of 264 1467 LC7VMAX1 Meder - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. None of the photos that you've been talking about, to your 3 knowledge, were displayed in the house, right? 4 A. I don't recall. 5 Q. They just came off of a CD? 6 A. I don't recall. 7 Q. Well, you've just testified about these CDs and taking the 8 photos off the CDs, right? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Okay. You didn't testify about any photos that were taken 11 off of a wall? 12 A. Correct. 13 (Continued on next page) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018639 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 42 of 264 1468 LC7Cmax2 Meder - cross 1 BY MS. MENNINGER: 2 Q. And all of the CDs, to your knowledge, were seized during 3 the two searches that you were part of; correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And that was in July of 2019; right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. As a part of this project, you reviewed a substantial 8 number of CDs; right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you know approximately how many CDs you reviewed? 11 A. I do not. 12 Q. A hundred? 13 A. There were probably hundreds, yes. 14 Q. And on those hundreds of CDs, there were thousands of 15 photographs; right? 16 A. Collectively, yes. 17 Q. There were more than 10,000 photographs; correct? 18 A. I don't know specific numbers. 19 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, may I approach the 20 witness? Actually, if we can just show the witness and the 21 Court, and I'll alert counsel to the number, 3531-12. 22 MS. COMEY: We don't have it yet. 23 MS. MENNINGER: I have a hard copy. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MS. MENNINGER: May I approach, your Honor? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013055 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 42 of 264 1468 LC7Cmax2 Meder - cross 1 BY MS. MENNINGER: 2 Q. And all of the CDs, to your knowledge, were seized during 3 the two searches that you were part of; correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And that was in July of 2019; right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. As a part of this project, you reviewed a substantial 8 number of CDs; right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you know approximately how many CDs you reviewed? 11 A. I do not. 12 Q. A hundred? 13 A. There were probably hundreds, yes. 14 Q. And on those hundreds of CDs, there were thousands of 15 photographs; right? 16 A. Collectively, yes. 17 Q. There were more than 10,000 photographs; correct? 18 A. I don't know specific numbers. 19 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, may I approach the 20 witness? Actually, if we can just show the witness and the 21 Court, and I'll alert counsel to the number, 3531-12. 22 MS. COMEY: We don't have it yet. 23 MS. MENNINGER: I have a hard copy. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MS. MENNINGER: May I approach, your Honor? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018640 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 43 of 264 1469 LC7Cmax2 Meder - cross 1 THE COURT: You may. 2 BY MS. MENNINGER: 3 Q. Ms. Meder, do you recognize the handwriting on 3531-12? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is that your handwriting? 6 A. It is. 7 Q. Are these some of your notes that you took when you were doing this photograph review? 8 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And if you could just look at a couple of the pages and tell me whether it refreshes your recollection about the number of photographs that you reviewed. 11 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. Can you tell the jury now about how many photographs you think you reviewed? 15 16 A. Several thousand. 17 Q. In one set, there was more than 20,000, is that right, on page 2? 18 19 A. I'm not seeing the 20,000. 20 Q. In the box in the middle of the page on page 2, it's on the backside. 21 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. On another set, there was somewhere between four and ten thousand; is that right? 24 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013056 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 43 of 264 1469 LC7Cmax2 Meder - cross 1 THE COURT: You may. 2 BY MS. MENNINGER: 3 Q. Ms. Meder, do you recognize the handwriting on 3531-12? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is that your handwriting? 6 A. It is. 7 Q. Are these some of your notes that you took when you were doing this photograph review? 8 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And if you could just look at a couple of the pages and tell me whether it refreshes your recollection about the number of photographs that you reviewed. 11 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. Can you tell the jury now about how many photographs you think you reviewed? 15 16 A. Several thousand. 17 Q. In one set, there was more than 20,000, is that right, on page 2? 18 19 A. I'm not seeing the 20,000. 20 Q. In the box in the middle of the page on page 2, it's on the backside. 21 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. On another set, there was somewhere between four and ten thousand; is that right? 24 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018641 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 44 of 264 1470 LC7Cmax2 Meder - cross 1 Q. And in another set, there was about 18,000, on page 4? 2 A. That might have been the total. 3 Q. Okay. So not the four to ten, but the eighteen? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. So eighteen and twenty thousand in a couple different sets that you have reflected in these notes: right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you remember it took a substantial period of time for you to go through all those photographs; right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Your job was to copy the photos from the CDs to the computer and then to review them; right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You don't have any personal knowledge of how the photos got onto the CDs, for example? 12 A. No. 13 Q. You don't have any personal knowledge of who took the photos that you've been talking about; right? 14 A. Well, in some of the black binders, there are initials written on the bottom of pages. 15 Q. But you don't know what those initials mean from personal knowledge; correct? 16 A. You can infer based on how they were labeled on the disc. 17 Q. You don't have personal knowledge, do you? 18 A. No. 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 20 DOJ-OGR-00013057 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 44 of 264 1470 LC7Cmax2 Meder - cross 1 Q. And in another set, there was about 18,000, on page 4? 2 A. That might have been the total. 3 Q. Okay. So not the four to ten, but the eighteen? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. So eighteen and twenty thousand in a couple different sets that you have reflected in these notes: right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you remember it took a substantial period of time for you to go through all those photographs; right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Your job was to copy the photos from the CDs to the computer and then to review them; right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You don't have any personal knowledge of how the photos got onto the CDs, for example? 12 A. No. 13 Q. You don't have any personal knowledge of who took the photos that you've been talking about; right? 14 A. Well, in some of the black binders, there are initials written on the bottom of pages. 15 Q. But you don't know what those initials mean from personal knowledge; correct? 16 A. You can infer based on how they were labeled on the disc. 17 Q. You don't have personal knowledge, do you? 18 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018642 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 45 of 264 1471 LC7Cmax2 Meder - cross 1 Q. You don't have personal knowledge about when these photos were taken; correct? 2 A. On the disc, there are dates labeled. 3 Q. But you don't know if those dates are accurate from personal knowledge, do you? 4 A. I'm not a computer expert, so I wouldn't be able to confirm 5 it, but they are written on the CDs. 6 Q. There are notes on the CDs and you don't know if they're 7 accurate; correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. You don't know whether the photos were altered by anyone 10 before they went onto the CD? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. You don't know whether those photos on the CD were simply 13 sent to Epstein or someone else and then captured on a CD; 14 correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. You don't know whether any of those photos are a correct 17 and accurate representation of any particular fact; correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 MS. MENNINGER: No further questions. Thank you. 20 THE COURT: Ms. Comey. 21 MS. COMEY: Briefly, your Honor. Thank you. May I 22 inquire? 23 THE COURT: You may. 24 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013058 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 45 of 264 1471 LC7Cmax2 Meder - cross 1 Q. You don't have personal knowledge about when these photos were taken; correct? 2 A. On the disc, there are dates labeled. 3 Q. But you don't know if those dates are accurate from personal knowledge, do you? 4 A. I'm not a computer expert, so I wouldn't be able to confirm 5 it, but they are written on the CDs. 6 Q. There are notes on the CDs and you don't know if they're 7 accurate; correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. You don't know whether the photos were altered by anyone 10 before they went onto the CD? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. You don't know whether those photos on the CD were simply 13 sent to Epstein or someone else and then captured on a CD; 14 correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. You don't know whether any of those photos are a correct 17 and accurate representation of any particular fact; correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 MS. MENNINGER: No further questions. Thank you. 20 THE COURT: Ms. Comey. 21 MS. COMEY: Briefly, your Honor. Thank you. May I 22 inquire? 23 THE COURT: You may. 24 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018643 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 46 of 264 1472 LC7Cmax2 Meder - redirect REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. COMEY: Q. Ms. Meder, you were mentioning some initials that you saw on the black binders. Could you tell us what you saw? MS. MENNINGER: Objection. It's hearsay, your Honor. The labels on the binders are hearsay. MS. COMEY: I'm just asking her about the initials that were elicited during cross examination. MS. MENNINGER: I did not elicit the hearsay, your Honor. I elicited that there were initials and not what they were, because she just testified she does not know whether those initials are accurate. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MS. COMEY: Q. You also mentioned that you saw dates on CDs. Could you tell us what dates you remember seeing on the CDs you reviewed? MS. MENNINGER: Same objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. MS. COMEY: No further questions. THE COURT: Thank you. Nothing further, correct, Ms. Menninger? MS. MENNINGER: Not for this witness. Thank you. THE COURT: Ms. Meder, you may step down. You are excused. (Witness excused) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013059 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 46 of 264 1472 LC7Cmax2 Meder - redirect REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. COMEY: Q. Ms. Meder, you were mentioning some initials that you saw on the black binders. Could you tell us what you saw? MS. MENNINGER: Objection. It's hearsay, your Honor. The labels on the binders are hearsay. MS. COMEY: I'm just asking her about the initials that were elicited during cross examination. MS. MENNINGER: I did not elicit the hearsay, your Honor. I elicited that there were initials and not what they were, because she just testified she does not know whether those initials are accurate. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MS. COMEY: Q. You also mentioned that you saw dates on CDs. Could you tell us what dates you remember seeing on the CDs you reviewed? MS. MENNINGER: Same objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. MS. COMEY: No further questions. THE COURT: Thank you. Nothing further, correct, Ms. Menninger? MS. MENNINGER: Not for this witness. Thank you. THE COURT: Ms. Meder, you may step down. You are excused. (Witness excused) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018644 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 47 of 264 1473 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 Ms. Comey, the government may call its next witness. 2 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, may I retrieve our exhibit? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 MS. POMERANTZ: The government calls Stephen Flatley. 5 THE COURT: Stephen Flatley may come forward. 6 STEPHEN FLATLEY, 7 called as a witness by the Government, 8 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 9 THE COURT: You may be seated. Please remove your mask and state and spell your name for the record. 10 THE WITNESS: Sure. It's Stephen, S-t-e-p-h-e-n, Flatley, F-l-a-t-l-e-y. 11 THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz, you may inquire. 12 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION 14 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 15 Q. Good morning. 16 A. Good morning. 17 Q. Where do you work? 18 A. I work for the Federal Bureau of Investigation, New York division. 19 Q. Is that also known as the FBI? 20 A. Yes, it is. 21 Q. Do you work any particular unit at the FBI? 22 A. Yes. I work in the Computer Analysis Response Team, or 23 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013060 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 47 of 264 1473 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct Ms. Comey, the government may call its next witness. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, may I retrieve our exhibit? THE COURT: Yes. MS. POMERANTZ: The government calls Stephen Flatley. THE COURT: Stephen Flatley may come forward. STEPHEN FLATLEY, called as a witness by the Government, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: THE COURT: You may be seated. Please remove your mask and state and spell your name for the record. THE WITNESS: Sure. It's Stephen, S-t-e-p-h-e-n, Flatley, F-l-a-t-l-e-y. THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz, you may inquire. MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Good morning. A. Good morning. Q. Where do you work? A. I work for the Federal Bureau of Investigation, New York division. Q. Is that also known as the FBI? A. Yes, it is. Q. Do you work any particular unit at the FBI? A. Yes. I work in the Computer Analysis Response Team, or SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018645 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 48 of 264 1474 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 CART. 2 Q. And what is CART? 3 A. CART is responsible for collecting and processing digital evidence. 4 5 Q. What is your title in the CART team? 6 A. I am the CART coordinator. 7 Q. And what does that mean? 8 A. That means I mentor other people and handle the day-to-day 9 activities. 10 Q. Do you have any other roles on the CART team? 11 A. I am a senior examiner. I am also a field instructor from 12 Quantico. 13 Q. You mentioned that you're an examiner. What kind of 14 examiner are you? 15 A. I am a forensic -- digital forensic examiner. 16 Q. How long have you been a forensic digital examiner for the 17 FBI on the CART team? 18 A. 16 and a half years. 19 Q. What did you do prior to joining the FBI? 20 A. I was a computer consultant and programmer. 21 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I think since we're just 22 doing fact testimony that any more than this would be 23 inappropriate under 702. 24 THE COURT: Okay. You can move on. Thank you. 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013061 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 48 of 264 1474 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 CART. 2 Q. And what is CART? 3 A. CART is responsible for collecting and processing digital evidence. 4 Q. What is your title in the CART team? 5 A. I am the CART coordinator. 6 Q. And what does that mean? 7 A. That means I mentor other people and handle the day-to-day activities. 8 Q. Do you have any other roles on the CART team? 9 A. I am a senior examiner. I am also a field instructor from Quantico. 10 Q. You mentioned that you're an examiner. What kind of examiner are you? 11 A. I am a forensic -- digital forensic examiner. 12 Q. How long have you been a forensic digital examiner for the FBI on the CART team? 13 A. 16 and a half years. 14 Q. What did you do prior to joining the FBI? 15 A. I was a computer consultant and programmer. 16 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I think since we're just doing fact testimony that any more than this would be inappropriate under 702. 17 THE COURT: Okay. You can move on. Thank you. 18 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 20 DOJ-OGR-00018646 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 49 of 264 1475 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 2 Q. You mentioned digital evidence. What do you mean by digital evidence? 3 A. Things like computers, thumb drives, CDs, anything that stores information in a digital format. 4 Q. Taking a step back, what does it mean to forensically examine an electronic device? 5 A. Basically we just categorize and organize the data so it's easier to look through. 6 Q. Mr. Flatley, what is considered a computer? 7 A. To be considered a computer, a device has to have four characteristics. It has to take input, it has to give output, it has to have some kind of processor, and have some kind of storage. 8 Q. Where is information stored on a computer? 9 A. On your average computer, it's stored on the hard drive. 10 Q. What is a hard drive? 11 A. It's an electromechanical device for storing digital data. 12 Q. When you analyze digital evidence, what, if anything, do you know about the case? 13 A. Usually nothing. 14 Q. Mr. Flatley, did there come a time when you examined digital evidence in this case? 15 A. Yes, there did. 16 Q. In approximately what year or years? 17 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013062 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 49 of 264 1475 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 2 Q. You mentioned digital evidence. What do you mean by digital evidence? 3 A. Things like computers, thumb drives, CDs, anything that stores information in a digital format. 4 Q. Taking a step back, what does it mean to forensically examine an electronic device? 5 A. Basically we just categorize and organize the data so it's easier to look through. 6 Q. Mr. Flatley, what is considered a computer? 7 A. To be considered a computer, a device has to have four characteristics. It has to take input, it has to give output, it has to have some kind of processor, and have some kind of storage. 8 Q. Where is information stored on a computer? 9 A. On your average computer, it's stored on the hard drive. 10 Q. What is a hard drive? 11 A. It's an electromechanical device for storing digital data. 12 Q. When you analyze digital evidence, what, if anything, do you know about the case? 13 A. Usually nothing. 14 Q. Mr. Flatley, did there come a time when you examined digital evidence in this case? 15 A. Yes, there did. 16 Q. In approximately what year or years? 17 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 18 DOJ-OGR-00018647 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 50 of 264 1476 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 A. It began in 2019. 2 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I would like to show the witness what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 54. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. I'm going to show it to defense counsel. 8 THE COURT: Thank you. 9 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 10 Q. Mr. Flatley, do you recognize this? 11 A. Yes, I do. 12 Q. What is it? 13 A. It's one of the hard drives I examined in this case. 14 Q. What is the NYC number? 15 A. The NYC number here, NYC024350. It's a unique identifier that I place on different pieces of evidence. Every piece of evidence gets its own NYC number. 18 Q. How do you recognize Government Exhibit 54 as a device you examined? 20 A. It has my initials on it and it has the case number and the date. 22 Q. What was the first step you took in examining Government Exhibit 54? 24 A. When I received government's 54, I plugged it into a write blocker -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013063 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 50 of 264 1476 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 A. It began in 2019. 2 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I would like to show the witness what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 54. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. I'm going to show it to defense counsel. 5 THE COURT: Thank you. 6 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 7 Q. Mr. Flatley, do you recognize this? 8 A. Yes, I do. 9 Q. What is it? 10 A. It's one of the hard drives I examined in this case. 11 Q. What is the NYC number? 12 A. The NYC number here, NYC024350. It's a unique identifier that I place on different pieces of evidence. Every piece of evidence gets its own NYC number. 13 Q. How do you recognize Government Exhibit 54 as a device you examined? 14 A. It has my initials on it and it has the case number and the date. 15 Q. What was the first step you took in examining Government Exhibit 54? 16 A. When I received government's 54, I plugged it into a write blocker -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018648 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 51 of 264 1477 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Flatley. Just to take a step back, when you first get it, do you mark it in some way? 2 A. Yes. I'm sorry. The first thing I do is put the NYC number on it and the sticker with my initials. 3 Q. After marking it, do you create an image of the drive? 4 A. Yes. In this case, I had to inspect it to see what kind of data was on it, to see if it was already an image or if it was a clone so that if it was a clone, I would have to image it. If it was an image, I would just have to copy it. 5 Q. Did you end up making an image of this device? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. What does it mean to make an image of a device? 8 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, this is outside the 702 disclosure. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. 10 A. So an image is a bit-for-bit copy of the media from the very beginning to the very end. We take those -- that copy and we write it into several different files and then that way it containerizes the data inside it so we don't accidentally mess it up. 11 Q. Did you image the drive that's been marked for identification that's been marked as Government Exhibit 54? 12 A. Yes, I did. 13 Q. Can you explain to the jury how you made or what tools you used to make a forensic image of the hard drive? 14 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013064 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 51 of 264 1477 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Flatley. Just to take a step back, when you first get it, do you mark it in some way? 2 A. Yes. I'm sorry. The first thing I do is put the NYC number on it and the sticker with my initials. 3 Q. After marking it, do you create an image of the drive? 4 A. Yes. In this case, I had to inspect it to see what kind of data was on it, to see if it was already an image or if it was a clone so that if it was a clone, I would have to image it. If it was an image, I would just have to copy it. 5 Q. Did you end up making an image of this device? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. What does it mean to make an image of a device? 8 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, this is outside the 702 disclosure. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. 10 A. So an image is a bit-for-bit copy of the media from the very beginning to the very end. We take those -- that copy and we write it into several different files and then that way it containerizes the data inside it so we don't accidentally mess it up. 11 Q. Did you image the drive that's been marked for identification that's been marked as Government Exhibit 54? 12 A. Yes, I did. 13 Q. Can you explain to the jury how you made or what tools you used to make a forensic image of the hard drive? 14 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 15 DOJ-OGR-00018649 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 52 of 264 1478 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 A. Sure. There is a possibility of three different tools that we can use. One is a physical piece of equipment called a TX1 disc duplicator -- 2 Q. Mr. Flatley, sorry to interrupt. In this case, what did you use here? 3 A. I used the TX1 disc duplicator. 4 Q. Why not just examine the drive itself in this case, Government Exhibit 54? 5 A. Hard drives are a little fragile, especially this one, it's pretty old. The fact that we spin it up, that may be the last time it ever spins. So we always make a copy and we work off the copy so that we have our data. We can make arguably infinite copies of that data and prove that it's the same data. So that's what we do. 6 Q. What, if anything, do you do to determine that the image you made from Government Exhibit 54 matched the data on Government Exhibit 54? 7 A. We run a hash algorithm, which is basically a math problem against the data that we copied and the data from the original, and if the hashes match, then the data is identical, and the data was in this case. 8 Q. After you made an image of Government Exhibit 54, what do you do next? 9 A. After the 54 was imaged, I then placed it through our software, AccessData's lab to categorize and organize the data. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013065 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 52 of 264 1478 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 A. Sure. There is a possibility of three different tools that we can use. One is a physical piece of equipment called a TX1 disc duplicator -- 2 Q. Mr. Flatley, sorry to interrupt. In this case, what did you use here? 3 A. I used the TX1 disc duplicator. 4 Q. Why not just examine the drive itself in this case, Government Exhibit 54? 5 A. Hard drives are a little fragile, especially this one, it's pretty old. The fact that we spin it up, that may be the last time it ever spins. So we always make a copy and we work off the copy so that we have our data. We can make arguably infinite copies of that data and prove that it's the same data. So that's what we do. 6 Q. What, if anything, do you do to determine that the image you made from Government Exhibit 54 matched the data on Government Exhibit 54? 7 A. We run a hash algorithm, which is basically a math problem against the data that we copied and the data from the original, and if the hashes match, then the data is identical, and the data was in this case. 8 Q. After you made an image of Government Exhibit 54, what do you do next? 9 A. After the 54 was imaged, I then placed it through our software, AccessData's lab to categorize and organize the data. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018650 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 53 of 264 1479 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 Q. What is AccessData's lab? 2 A. It's a piece of forensic software. 3 Q. Did there come a time when you were asked to review the 4 image you made of Government Exhibit 54? 5 A. Yes, there did. 6 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, could we please pull up 7 for the witness, the Court, and the parties what's been marked 8 for identification as Government Exhibit 419. 9 Q. Mr. Flatley, do you recognize this? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 Q. What is it? 12 A. It is a piece of the software registry information for 13 government's 54. 14 Q. And what is registry software information? 15 A. So the registry is a database, a hierarchical database that 16 Windows uses to store all its settings. 17 Q. Does Government Exhibit 419 fairly and accurately reflect 18 the registry software information for Government Exhibit 54? 19 A. Yes, it does. 20 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers 21 Government Exhibit 419. 22 MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Thank you. GX419 is admitted. You may 24 publish. 25 (Government's Exhibit 419 received in evidence) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013066 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 53 of 264 1479 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 Q. What is AccessData's lab? 2 A. It's a piece of forensic software. 3 Q. Did there come a time when you were asked to review the image you made of Government Exhibit 54? 4 5 A. Yes, there did. 6 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, could we please pull up for the witness, the Court, and the parties what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 419. 7 8 9 Q. Mr. Flatley, do you recognize this? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 Q. What is it? 12 A. It is a piece of the software registry information for government's 54. 13 14 Q. And what is registry software information? 15 A. So the registry is a database, a hierarchical database that Windows uses to store all its settings. 16 17 Q. Does Government Exhibit 419 fairly and accurately reflect the registry software information for Government Exhibit 54? 18 19 A. Yes, it does. 20 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers Government Exhibit 419. 21 22 MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Thank you. GX419 is admitted. You may publish. 24 25 (Government's Exhibit 419 received in evidence) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018651 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 54 of 264 1480 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 Q. Mr. Flatley, let's walk through the information listed in 2 Government Exhibit 419. What is listed as the install date for 3 Government Exhibit 54? 4 A. It's February 22nd, 2001. 5 Q. What is listed as the product name here? 6 A. Microsoft Windows 2000. 7 Q. Do you see where it says registered organization? 8 A. Yes, I do. 9 Q. What is registered organization mean? 10 A. It's a standard user inputtable field that Windows displays 11 to you when you first set up the computer and it asks for 12 basically the company name that owns the computer. 13 Q. You just mentioned user inputtable. Just briefly, what 14 does that mean? 15 A. That means when you first start the computer, it asks who 16 is the organization, who owns this, and you answer, you type in 17 on a keyboard. 18 Q. What is listed as the registered organization? 19 A. Gmax. 20 Q. And what is registered owner? 21 A. It's the same kind of field as registered organization. 22 It's user inputtable field that's put in when you first start 23 the computer. 24 Q. What is listed as the registered owner here? 25 A. Gmax. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013067 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 54 of 264 1480 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 Q. Mr. Flatley, let's walk through the information listed in 2 Government Exhibit 419. What is listed as the install date for 3 Government Exhibit 54? 4 A. It's February 22nd, 2001. 5 Q. What is listed as the product name here? 6 A. Microsoft Windows 2000. 7 Q. Do you see where it says registered organization? 8 A. Yes, I do. 9 Q. What is registered organization mean? 10 A. It's a standard user inputtable field that Windows displays 11 to you when you first set up the computer and it asks for 12 basically the company name that owns the computer. 13 Q. You just mentioned user inputtable. Just briefly, what 14 does that mean? 15 A. That means when you first start the computer, it asks who 16 is the organization, who owns this, and you answer, you type in 17 on a keyboard. 18 Q. What is listed as the registered organization? 19 A. Gmax. 20 Q. And what is registered owner? 21 A. It's the same kind of field as registered organization. 22 It's user inputtable field that's put in when you first start 23 the computer. 24 Q. What is listed as the registered owner here? 25 A. Gmax. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018652 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 55 of 264 1481 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, now we can bring that down. 2 3 Can we pull up for the witness, the Court, and the 4 parties what's been marked for identification as Government 5 Exhibit 424. 6 Q. Mr. Flatley, do you see that? 7 A. Yes, I do. 8 Q. Do you recognize Government Exhibit 424? 9 A. Yes, I do. It's an email that was printed from 10 Government's 54. 11 Q. And how do you recognize this? 12 A. I reviewed it prior to court today. 13 Q. Is Government Exhibit 424 a true and accurate copy of an 14 email on Government Exhibit 54? 15 A. Yes, it is. 16 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers 17 Government Exhibit 424. 18 MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Thank you. GX424 is admitted. You may 20 publish. 21 (Government's Exhibit 424 received in evidence) 22 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 23 Ms. Drescher, if we can publish. 24 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 25 Q. I'd like to turn to the first email in the chain on page 2. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013068 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 55 of 264 1481 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, now we can bring that down. 2 3 Can we pull up for the witness, the Court, and the 4 parties what's been marked for identification as Government 5 Exhibit 424. 6 Q. Mr. Flatley, do you see that? 7 A. Yes, I do. 8 Q. Do you recognize Government Exhibit 424? 9 A. Yes, I do. It's an email that was printed from 10 Government's 54. 11 Q. And how do you recognize this? 12 A. I reviewed it prior to court today. 13 Q. Is Government Exhibit 424 a true and accurate copy of an 14 email on Government Exhibit 54? 15 A. Yes, it is. 16 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers 17 Government Exhibit 424. 18 MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Thank you. GX424 is admitted. You may 20 publish. 21 (Government's Exhibit 424 received in evidence) 22 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 23 Ms. Drescher, if we can publish. 24 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 25 Q. I'd like to turn to the first email in the chain on page 2. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018653 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 56 of 264 1482 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 Mr. Flatley, what is the date and time of the email? 2 A. The email was sent on Friday, May 25th, 2001, at 12:05 p.m. 3 Q. Who is the email from? 4 A. It's from gmax1@mindspring.com. 5 Q. Who is the recipient of the email? 6 A. Sally Markham. 7 MS. POMERANTZ: I'd like to ask, Ms. Drescher, if you could, highlight the language starting with "I need to know" and we can go through the end of number 6. 8 Q. Mr. Flatley, can I ask you to read the highlighted language, please? 9 A. "I need to know what if any list John is using and he needs to understand that he is doing a truly awful job. 10 1. There was no drinking water in the black Merc. 11 2. There were no pens in the black Merc. 12 3. The bulb on JE desk was burnt out when we arrived. 13 4. The pool deck was so filthy, JE had to ask him to pressure wash it. Is this not the gardener's job? And if so, why does John not have it done? 14 5. Even though John said that he changed the color card in the computer, having done it would it could not -- he could not see that it was exactly the same as before, i.e., no different, and that obviously JE would not be happy with it. 15 6. The massage creams, et cetera, in JE's bathroom were a mess. No one had it tidied up and arranged them so it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013069 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 56 of 264 1482 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 Mr. Flatley, what is the date and time of the email? 2 A. The email was sent on Friday, May 25th, 2001, at 12:05 p.m. 3 Q. Who is the email from? 4 A. It's from gmax1@mindspring.com. 5 Q. Who is the recipient of the email? 6 A. Sally Markham. 7 MS. POMERANTZ: I'd like to ask, Ms. Drescher, if you could, highlight the language starting with "I need to know" and we can go through the end of number 6. 10 Q. Mr. Flatley, can I ask you to read the highlighted language, please? 12 A. "I need to know what if any list John is using and he needs to understand that he is doing a truly awful job. 14 1. There was no drinking water in the black Merc. 15 2. There were no pens in the black Merc. 16 3. The bulb on JE desk was burnt out when we arrived. 17 4. The pool deck was so filthy, JE had to ask him to pressure wash it. Is this not the gardener's job? And if so, why does John not have it done? 20 5. Even though John said that he changed the color card in the computer, having done it would it could not -- he could not see that it was exactly the same as before, i.e., no different, and that obviously JE would not be happy with it. 24 6. The massage creams, et cetera, in JE's bathroom were a mess. No one had it tidied up and arranged them so it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018654 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 57 of 264 1483 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct was neat. MS. POMERANTZ: And if we could highlight the last two lines of this. Sorry, Ms. Drescher. Starting with "How are we doing." Thanks very much. Q. Mr. Flatley, can you read that highlighted language, please. A. Sure. "How are we doing with the PB manual - where do we stand with it? G." MS. POMERANTZ: We can move out of that and let's move up to page 1 of this exhibit and take a look at the email response to the prior email that we just looked at. Q. Mr. Flatley, what is the date and time of the email? A. It's 6:46 p.m. on May 25th, 2001. Q. And who is the email addressed to? A. It's addressed to Ms. Maxwell. Q. And if we could just scroll down to the bottom of the email. And who is it signed by? A. Signed by Sally. MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, let's pull back up to the first page. Thank you very much. THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz, could I get you a little bit louder, please. MS. POMERANTZ: Of course, your Honor. Thank you. Ms. Drescher, can you highlight the paragraph starting with "John and I specifically talked." SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013070 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 57 of 264 1483 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct was neat. MS. POMERANTZ: And if we could highlight the last two lines of this. Sorry, Ms. Drescher. Starting with "How are we doing." Thanks very much. Q. Mr. Flatley, can you read that highlighted language, please. A. Sure. "How are we doing with the PB manual - where do we stand with it? G." MS. POMERANTZ: We can move out of that and let's move up to page 1 of this exhibit and take a look at the email response to the prior email that we just looked at. Q. Mr. Flatley, what is the date and time of the email? A. It's 6:46 p.m. on May 25th, 2001. Q. And who is the email addressed to? A. It's addressed to Ms. Maxwell. Q. And if we could just scroll down to the bottom of the email. And who is it signed by? A. Signed by Sally. MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, let's pull back up to the first page. Thank you very much. THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz, could I get you a little bit louder, please. MS. POMERANTZ: Of course, your Honor. Thank you. Ms. Drescher, can you highlight the paragraph starting with "John and I specifically talked." SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018655 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 58 of 264 1484 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 Q. Mr. Flatley, can you read that paragraph, please. 2 A. Sure. "John and I specifically talked last week about how important these details are. About two weeks ago, I faxed your checkoff lists to John in preparation for the manual. These are the lists you made and I'd say they are at least 3/4 complete. (This is the third time I've reviewed these lists with him since I've started.) He stated the lists are complete, although I definitely want to add to them and edit them as your needs change." 10 MS. POMERANTZ: If we can pull out of that, we can drop that call out, and if we can zoom in on the paragraph starting with "Our household manual draft." Thanks very much. 13 Q. Mr. Flatley, can you please read that. 14 A. Sure. "Our household manual draft does indicate where to purchase "Cleaning supplies" (Publix and Sam's Club-PB Gardens) and states "Use only Tide with bleach, Downy softeners (switch fragrance every 2-3 months) Bounce dryer sheets. We did edit and reviewed this information last week. However, we have not completed an inventory list/check off list of supplies yet." 21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Flatley. And directing your attention to the top of page 1, who is this email from? 22 A. It is from gmax, gmax1@mindspring.com. 23 Q. And who is this email to? 24 A. MarkhamCPM@earthlink.net. 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can pull that down. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013071 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 58 of 264 1484 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 Q. Mr. Flatley, can you read that paragraph, please. 2 A. Sure. "John and I specifically talked last week about how important these details are. About two weeks ago, I faxed your checkoff lists to John in preparation for the manual. These are the lists you made and I'd say they are at least 3/4 complete. (This is the third time I've reviewed these lists with him since I've started.) He stated the lists are complete, although I definitely want to add to them and edit them as your needs change." 10 MS. POMERANTZ: If we can pull out of that, we can drop that call out, and if we can zoom in on the paragraph starting with "Our household manual draft." Thanks very much. 13 Q. Mr. Flatley, can you please read that. 14 A. Sure. "Our household manual draft does indicate where to purchase "Cleaning supplies" (Publix and Sam's Club-PB Gardens) and states "Use only Tide with bleach, Downy softeners (switch fragrance every 2-3 months) Bounce dryer sheets. We did edit and reviewed this information last week. However, we have not completed an inventory list/check off list of supplies yet." 20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Flatley. And directing your attention to the top of page 1, who is this email from? 21 22 A. It is from gmax, gmax1@mindspring.com. 23 Q. And who is this email to? 24 A. MarkhamCPM@earthlink.net. 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can pull that down. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018656 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 59 of 264 1485 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 Thanks very much. 2 Ms. Drescher, can we pull up for the witness, the Court, and the parties what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 418 and 418R. If we can pull them up side by side. 3 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 4 Q. Mr. Flatley, do you recognize this exhibit? 5 A. Yes, I do. 6 Q. What is it? 7 A. That's a document that was printed from Government 54. 8 Q. And are you referring Government Exhibit 418 or 418R? 9 A. Both of them. One was -- one is just redacted. 10 Q. And just to be clear for the record, which is the redacted one? 11 A. Redacted is 418R. 12 Q. And Government Exhibit 418, how do you recognize this exhibit? 13 A. I reviewed it prior to court today. 14 Q. Where did you locate this exhibit? 15 A. It was on Government's 54. 16 Q. Is this a true and accurate copy of a document on Government Exhibit 54? 17 A. Yes, it is. 18 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government would offer Government Exhibit 418 under seal and 418R publicly. 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013072 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 59 of 264 1485 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 Thanks very much. 2 Ms. Drescher, can we pull up for the witness, the Court, and the parties what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 418 and 418R. If we can pull them up side by side. 3 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 4 Q. Mr. Flatley, do you recognize this exhibit? 5 A. Yes, I do. 6 Q. What is it? 7 A. That's a document that was printed from Government 54. 8 Q. And are you referring Government Exhibit 418 or 418R? 9 A. Both of them. One was -- one is just redacted. 10 Q. And just to be clear for the record, which is the redacted one? 11 A. Redacted is 418R. 12 Q. And Government Exhibit 418, how do you recognize this exhibit? 13 A. I reviewed it prior to court today. 14 Q. Where did you locate this exhibit? 15 A. It was on Government's 54. 16 Q. Is this a true and accurate copy of a document on Government Exhibit 54? 17 A. Yes, it is. 18 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government would offer Government Exhibit 418 under seal and 418R publicly. 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018657 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 60 of 264 1486 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct MS. MENNINGER: No objection to that, your Honor. I would note that the unredacted one is visible on counsel's table. So I'm not sure if the -- THE COURT: We'll take those down from counsel's table. MS. POMERANTZ: We can take down Government Exhibit 418. Thank you. THE COURT: So 418 is admitted under seal because it has third-party telephone numbers. And 418R is admitted with some of those phone numbers redacted. (Government's Exhibits 418, 418R received in evidence) MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. Ms. Drescher, could we pull up for the witness, the Court, and the parties what has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 418B. Q. Mr. Flatley, do you recognize this? A. Yes, I do. Q. What is it? A. It is the properties of the document you just showed me, 418. Q. And does Government Exhibit 418B fairly and accurately reflect the properties for Government Exhibit 418? A. Yes, it does. Q. How do you know that? A. I reviewed it prior to court today. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013073 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 60 of 264 1486 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 MS. MENNINGER: No objection to that, your Honor. 2 I would note that the unredacted one is visible on 3 counsel's table. So I'm not sure if the -- 4 THE COURT: We'll take those down from counsel's 5 table. 6 MS. POMERANTZ: We can take down Government Exhibit 7 418. Thank you. 8 THE COURT: So 418 is admitted under seal because it 9 has third-party telephone numbers. And 418R is admitted with 10 some of those phone numbers redacted. 11 (Government's Exhibits 418, 418R received in evidence) 12 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 13 Ms. Drescher, could we pull up for the witness, the 14 Court, and the parties what has been marked for identification 15 as Government Exhibit 418B. 16 Q. Mr. Flatley, do you recognize this? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. What is it? 19 A. It is the properties of the document you just showed me, 20 418. 21 Q. And does Government Exhibit 418B fairly and accurately 22 reflect the properties for Government Exhibit 418? 23 A. Yes, it does. 24 Q. How do you know that? 25 A. I reviewed it prior to court today. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018658 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 61 of 264 1487 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 Q. What did you do to review? 2 A. I'm sorry? 3 Q. What did you do to review? 4 A. I looked at it in my forensic software. 5 MS. POMERANTZ: The government offers Government 6 Exhibit 418B. 7 MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Thank you. GX418B is admitted. You may publish. 9 publish. 10 (Government's Exhibit 418B received in evidence) 11 MS. POMERANTZ: Thanks, your Honor. If I may, I'm 12 going to go through a couple more exhibits to enter them and then I'll publish them for the jury. 13 THE COURT: That's fine. Thank you. 14 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 15 Ms. Drescher, could we pull up for the witness, the 16 Court, and the parties what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 420 and 421. 17 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 18 Q. Mr. Flatley, please let me know when you've reviewed those exhibits. 19 A. I have. 20 Q. Thank you. 21 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, if we could pull up 22 Government Exhibit 422 for just the witness, the Court, and the 23 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013074 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 61 of 264 1487 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 Q. What did you do to review? 2 A. I'm sorry? 3 Q. What did you do to review? 4 A. I looked at it in my forensic software. 5 MS. POMERANTZ: The government offers Government 6 Exhibit 418B. 7 MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Thank you. GX418B is admitted. You may 9 publish. 10 (Government's Exhibit 418B received in evidence) 11 MS. POMERANTZ: Thanks, your Honor. If I may, I'm 12 going to go through a couple more exhibits to enter them and 13 then I'll publish them for the jury. 14 THE COURT: That's fine. Thank you. 15 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 16 Ms. Drescher, could we pull up for the witness, the 17 Court, and the parties what's been marked for identification as 18 Government Exhibit 420 and 421. 19 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 20 Q. Mr. Flatley, please let me know when you've reviewed those 21 exhibits. 22 A. I have. 23 Q. Thank you. 24 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, if we could pull up 25 Government Exhibit 422 for just the witness, the Court, and the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018659 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 62 of 264 1488 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 parties. 2 Q. Mr. Flatley, let me know when you've reviewed that, please. 3 A. I have. 4 Q. Do you recognize Government Exhibits 420, 421, and 422? 5 A. Yes, I do. 6 Q. What are they? 7 A. They're documents that were printed off of Government Exhibit 54. 8 Q. What kind of documents are they? 9 A. They are Word documents. 10 Q. And how do you recognize these exhibits? 11 A. I reviewed them prior to court today. 12 Q. Are they true and accurate copies of Word documents on Government Exhibit 54? 13 A. Yes, they are. 14 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers Government Exhibit 420, 421, and 422. 15 MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Thank you. 420, 421, and 422 are admitted. 17 (Government's Exhibits 420, 421, 422 received in evidence) 18 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can pull that down. 19 If we can pull up for the witness, the Court, and the parties what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013075 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 62 of 264 1488 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 parties. 2 Q. Mr. Flatley, let me know when you've reviewed that, please. 3 A. I have. 4 Q. Do you recognize Government Exhibits 420, 421, and 422? 5 A. Yes, I do. 6 Q. What are they? 7 A. They're documents that were printed off of Government Exhibit 54. 8 Q. What kind of documents are they? 9 A. They are Word documents. 10 Q. And how do you recognize these exhibits? 11 A. I reviewed them prior to court today. 12 Q. Are they true and accurate copies of Word documents on Government Exhibit 54? 13 A. Yes, they are. 14 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers Government Exhibit 420, 421, and 422. 15 MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Thank you. 420, 421, and 422 are admitted. 17 (Government's Exhibits 420, 421, 422 received in evidence) 18 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can pull that down. 19 If we can pull up for the witness, the Court, and the parties what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018660 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 63 of 264 1489 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 420B and 421B. 2 Q. Mr. Flatley, please let me know when you've reviewed this. 3 A. I have. 4 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, if we can pull up 422B, please. 5 6 Q. Mr. Flatley, let me know when you've reviewed that. 7 A. I have. 8 Q. Do you recognize Government Exhibits 420B, 421B, and 422B? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 Q. What are they? 11 A. They are the properties of the documents that are associated with. 12 13 Q. Do these exhibits fairly and accurately reflect the properties for the corresponding exhibits? 14 15 A. Yes, they do. 16 Q. How do you know that? 17 A. I reviewed it prior to court today. 18 MS. POMERANTZ: The government offers Government Exhibits 420B, 421B, and 422B. 19 20 MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: 420B, 421B, 422B are admitted. 22 (Government's Exhibits 420B, 421B, 422B received in evidence) 23 24 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 25 Q. Mr. Flatley, where were Government Exhibits 418, 420, 421, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013076 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 63 of 264 1489 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 420B and 421B. 2 Q. Mr. Flatley, please let me know when you've reviewed this. 3 A. I have. 4 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, if we can pull up 422B, 5 please. 6 Q. Mr. Flatley, let me know when you've reviewed that. 7 A. I have. 8 Q. Do you recognize Government Exhibits 420B, 421B, and 422B? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 Q. What are they? 11 A. They are the properties of the documents that are associated with. 12 13 Q. Do these exhibits fairly and accurately reflect the 14 properties for the corresponding exhibits? 15 A. Yes, they do. 16 Q. How do you know that? 17 A. I reviewed it prior to court today. 18 MS. POMERANTZ: The government offers Government 19 Exhibits 420B, 421B, and 422B. 20 MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: 420B, 421B, 422B are admitted. 22 (Government's Exhibits 420B, 421B, 422B received in 23 evidence) 24 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 25 Q. Mr. Flatley, where were Government Exhibits 418, 420, 421, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018661 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 64 of 264 1490 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct and 422 saved? Q. Were they saved under any user account? A. They were on Government Exhibit 54. Q. Were they saved under any user account? A. Just give me one second. Yes, they were saved under -- in the documents folder for a user, Ghislaine. Q. When you say they were saved under a user account, what does that mean? MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. The user account was outside the scope. THE COURT: Overruled. A. So when you have a computer, a Windows computer, when you have a sign-in, a log-in ID username and password, it creates a folder structure under that name to organize the different data on it in case there is other users that are also on the machine. So, these particular documents were saved under the documents folder under the user Ghislaine. Q. What kind of files are Government Exhibits 418, 420, 421, and 422? A. They're Microsoft Word documents. Q. Where are properties stored in a Word document? A. So Word documents are actually not just one file, there are several files that are kind of cobbled together and one of those files maintains the properties of the document. Q. Just put simply, how can someone determine the properties in a Word document? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013077 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 64 of 264 1490 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct and 422 saved? Q. Were they saved under any user account? A. They were on Government Exhibit 54. Q. Were they saved under any user account? A. Just give me one second. Yes, they were saved under -- in the documents folder for a user, Ghislaine. Q. When you say they were saved under a user account, what does that mean? MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. The user account was outside the scope. THE COURT: Overruled. A. So when you have a computer, a Windows computer, when you have a sign-in, a log-in ID username and password, it creates a folder structure under that name to organize the different data on it in case there is other users that are also on the machine. So, these particular documents were saved under the documents folder under the user Ghislaine. Q. What kind of files are Government Exhibits 418, 420, 421, and 422? A. They're Microsoft Word documents. Q. Where are properties stored in a Word document? A. So Word documents are actually not just one file, there are several files that are kind of cobbled together and one of those files maintains the properties of the document. Q. Just put simply, how can someone determine the properties in a Word document? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018662 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 65 of 264 1491 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 A. So there are two ways you can do it. If the document is open in Word and you go up to File and go down to Properties, it will tell you that. Or, if the document is closed, you can just right-click on the document and select Properties and it will tell you the same information. 2 Q. When a Word document is created, is there metadata that is generated that reflects the creation date of that file? 3 A. Yes, there is. 4 Q. Do Word documents have metadata regarding dates of modification? 5 A. Yes, they do. 6 Q. And what is that referred to as? 7 A. The date modified. 8 Q. What does that metadata reflect? 9 A. The last time somebody saved it. 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, could you please publish Government Exhibit 420 and 420B, which are now in evidence, side by side. 11 Q. Let's just take a look at 420B, Mr. Flatley. What is listed as authors? 12 A. The author is listed as gmax. 13 Q. What is listed as last saved by? 14 A. That is also gmax. 15 Q. And what is listed as the content created date for this document? 16 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013078 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 65 of 264 1491 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 A. So there are two ways you can do it. If the document is open in Word and you go up to File and go down to Properties, it will tell you that. Or, if the document is closed, you can just right-click on the document and select Properties and it will tell you the same information. 2 Q. When a Word document is created, is there metadata that is generated that reflects the creation date of that file? 3 A. Yes, there is. 4 Q. Do Word documents have metadata regarding dates of modification? 5 A. Yes, they do. 6 Q. And what is that referred to as? 7 A. The date modified. 8 Q. What does that metadata reflect? 9 A. The last time somebody saved it. 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, could you please publish Government Exhibit 420 and 420B, which are now in evidence, side by side. 11 Q. Let's just take a look at 420B, Mr. Flatley. What is listed as authors? 12 A. The author is listed as gmax. 13 Q. What is listed as last saved by? 14 A. That is also gmax. 15 Q. And what is listed as the content created date for this document? 16 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018663 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 66 of 264 1492 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 A. Created on September 7th, 2002. 2 Q. And what is listed as the date last saved? 3 A. September 13th, 2002. 4 Q. What is listed here for last printed? 5 A. September 7th, 2002. 6 Q. And what is listed as the total editing time? 7 A. 30 minutes. 8 Q. Mr. Flatley, just focusing on -- 9 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Ms. Pomerantz. I can't hear you. 10 MS. POMERANTZ: I'm sorry, your Honor. My apologies. 11 Q. Looking at Government Exhibit 420, what is the date in the top-right corner? 12 A. September 7th, 2002. 13 Q. And if you could read the title of the document, please. 14 A. Sure. It's PB New Shampoo and Massage Products. 15 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can take that down. 16 Thanks very much. 17 Ms. Drescher, could you now publish Government Exhibit 418R and 418B. They're already in evidence, so we can publish them side by side, please. 18 Q. Let's start with 418R, Mr. Flatley. On the first page, can you read the top of the document, which I'm going to ask Ms. Drescher to highlight for you. 19 A. It says, Palm Beach House Workers. 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013079 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 66 of 264 1492 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 A. Created on September 7th, 2002. 2 Q. And what is listed as the date last saved? 3 A. September 13th, 2002. 4 Q. What is listed here for last printed? 5 A. September 7th, 2002. 6 Q. And what is listed as the total editing time? 7 A. 30 minutes. 8 Q. Mr. Flatley, just focusing on -- 9 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Ms. Pomerantz. I can't hear you. 10 MS. POMERANTZ: I'm sorry, your Honor. My apologies. 11 Q. Looking at Government Exhibit 420, what is the date in the top-right corner? 12 A. September 7th, 2002. 13 Q. And if you could read the title of the document, please. 14 A. Sure. It's PB New Shampoo and Massage Products. 15 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can take that down. 16 Thanks very much. 17 Ms. Drescher, could you now publish Government Exhibit 418R and 418B. They're already in evidence, so we can publish them side by side, please. 18 Q. Let's start with 418R, Mr. Flatley. On the first page, can you read the top of the document, which I'm going to ask Ms. Drescher to highlight for you. 19 A. It says, Palm Beach House Workers. 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018664 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 67 of 264 1493 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 MS. POMERANTZ: We can pull that down. 2 Q. If you can read the names under full-time workers and just 3 the first entry would be fine. Thank you. 4 A. John and Mary Alessi. 5 Q. If we can turn to page 2 of this document, can you read the 6 top of the page 2 of this document. 7 A. Palm Beach House Maintenance. 8 Q. And I want to direct your attention to where it says FedEx. 9 Can you read that, please. 10 A. Sure. It says, FedEx an 800 number, 800-463-3339. The 11 account number is 114420816. Nearest dropoff - box next to 12 P.B. National Bank on Worth Avenue. 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can take that down. 14 Q. Let's take a look at 418B. Who is the author? 15 A. The author is gmax. 16 Q. Who is the document last saved by? 17 A. Last saved by gmax. 18 Q. What is the revision number listed here? 19 A. 2. 20 Q. And what is the last printed date here? 21 A. The last printed date is January 29th, 2002, 6:01 p.m. 22 Q. And what is the content created date? 23 A. It's January 29th, 2002, 6:05 p.m. 24 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can pull those down 25 now. Thank you. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013080 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 67 of 264 1493 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 MS. POMERANTZ: We can pull that down. 2 Q. If you can read the names under full-time workers and just 3 the first entry would be fine. Thank you. 4 A. John and Mary Alessi. 5 Q. If we can turn to page 2 of this document, can you read the 6 top of the page 2 of this document. 7 A. Palm Beach House Maintenance. 8 Q. And I want to direct your attention to where it says FedEx. 9 Can you read that, please. 10 A. Sure. It says, FedEx an 800 number, 800-463-3339. The 11 account number is 114420816. Nearest dropoff - box next to 12 P.B. National Bank on Worth Avenue. 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can take that down. 14 Q. Let's take a look at 418B. Who is the author? 15 A. The author is gmax. 16 Q. Who is the document last saved by? 17 A. Last saved by gmax. 18 Q. What is the revision number listed here? 19 A. 2. 20 Q. And what is the last printed date here? 21 A. The last printed date is January 29th, 2002, 6:01 p.m. 22 Q. And what is the content created date? 23 A. It's January 29th, 2002, 6:05 p.m. 24 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can pull those down 25 now. Thank you. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018665 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 68 of 264 1494 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 If we could pull up Government Exhibit 421 and 421B, which are already in evidence. 2 3 Q. Mr. Flatley, can you read Government Exhibit 421. 4 A. Sure. It says: "Help wanted. Are you a massage therapist? Work in Palm Beach home. Excellent pay. Mostly weekends. Please call 351-1000. Leave message." 5 6 7 Q. Mr. Flatley, focusing on 421B, who is listed as authors? 8 A. The author is gmax. 9 Q. Who is listed as last saved by? 10 A. Last saved by gmax. 11 Q. On what date was the content created? 12 A. Created on September 17th, 2001. 13 Q. What's listed as the date last saved? 14 A. September 17th, 2001. 15 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can pull that down. 16 17 If we could publish 422 and 422B. 18 Q. Mr. Flatley, I want to focus your attention to Government Exhibit 422B. 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. On what date was the document created? 21 A. The document was created on October 14th, 2002. 22 Q. And what's listed as the late last saved? 23 A. October 14th, 2002. 24 Q. What's listed as the last printed date? 25 A. October 13th, 2002. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013081 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 68 of 264 1494 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 If we could pull up Government Exhibit 421 and 421B, which are already in evidence. 2 3 Q. Mr. Flatley, can you read Government Exhibit 421. 4 A. Sure. It says: "Help wanted. Are you a massage therapist? Work in Palm Beach home. Excellent pay. Mostly weekends. Please call 351-1000. Leave message." 5 6 7 Q. Mr. Flatley, focusing on 421B, who is listed as authors? 8 A. The author is gmax. 9 Q. Who is listed as last saved by? 10 A. Last saved by gmax. 11 Q. On what date was the content created? 12 A. Created on September 17th, 2001. 13 Q. What's listed as the date last saved? 14 A. September 17th, 2001. 15 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can pull that down. 16 17 If we could publish 422 and 422B. 18 Q. Mr. Flatley, I want to focus your attention to Government Exhibit 422B. 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. On what date was the document created? 21 A. The document was created on October 14th, 2002. 22 Q. And what's listed as the late last saved? 23 A. October 14th, 2002. 24 Q. What's listed as the last printed date? 25 A. October 13th, 2002. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018666 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 69 of 264 1495 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 Q. What is the total editing time? 2 A. 20 minutes. 3 Q. And I want to direct your attention to Government Exhibit 422. 4 5 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, can you please zoom in 6 on the first paragraph. 7 Q. Mr. Flatley, can you please read the first photograph gmax wrote? 8 9 A. Sure. "Jeffrey and Ghislaine have been together, a couple 10 for the last 11 years. They are, contrary to what many people 11 think, rarely apart - I almost always see them together." 12 MS. POMERANTZ: We can pull that down. 13 Let's zoom in on the second paragraph. 14 Q. Mr. Flatley, can you please read the second paragraph gmax wrote. 15 16 A. Sure. "Ghislaine is highly intelligent, and great company 17 with a ready smile and an infectious laugh who always puts one 18 at one's ease, and always makes one feel welcome." 19 MS. POMERANTZ: And let's pull up the next paragraph. 20 A. "Jeffrey and Ghislaine share many mutual interests and they 21 have a lot of fun together. They both have keen searching and 22 inquisitive minds. She grew up amongst scientists and in an 23 academic and business environment." 24 MS. POMERANTZ: We can pull that down, Ms. Drescher. 25 Thank you. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013082 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 69 of 264 1495 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - direct 1 Q. What is the total editing time? 2 A. 20 minutes. 3 Q. And I want to direct your attention to Government Exhibit 422. 4 5 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, can you please zoom in on the first paragraph. 6 7 Q. Mr. Flatley, can you please read the first photograph gmax wrote? 8 9 A. Sure. "Jeffrey and Ghislaine have been together, a couple for the last 11 years. They are, contrary to what many people think, rarely apart - I almost always see them together." 10 11 MS. POMERANTZ: We can pull that down. 12 13 Let's zoom in on the second paragraph. 14 Q. Mr. Flatley, can you please read the second paragraph gmax wrote. 15 16 A. Sure. "Ghislaine is highly intelligent, and great company with a ready smile and an infectious laugh who always puts one at ease, and always makes one feel welcome." 17 18 19 MS. POMERANTZ: And let's pull up the next paragraph. 20 A. "Jeffrey and Ghislaine share many mutual interests and they have a lot of fun together. They both have keen searching and inquisitive minds. She grew up amongst scientists and in an academic and business environment." 21 22 23 24 MS. POMERANTZ: We can pull that down, Ms. Drescher. 25 Thank you. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 70 of 264 1496 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross 1 Can we zoom in on the last paragraph, please. 2 Q. Mr. Flatley, can you please read this last paragraph. 3 Thank you. 4 A. "Jeffrey and Ghislaine complement each other really well 5 and I cannot imagine one without the other. On top of being 6 great partners, they are also the best of friends." 7 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have one moment, 8 please? 9 THE COURT: You may. 10 MS. POMERANTZ: No further questions, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Thank you. Ms. Menninger. 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION 13 BY MS. MENNINGER: 14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Flatley. 15 A. Good morning. 16 Q. How are you? 17 A. I'm fine. 18 Q. Good. The exhibit that represents the hard drive, do you 19 have that in front of you? 20 A. Yes, ma'am. 21 Q. That's GX54; correct? 22 A. Yes, ma'am. 23 Q. And it's your understanding that that hard drive was found 24 within Mr. Epstein's home in New York; correct? 25 A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013083 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 70 of 264 1496 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross 1 Can we zoom in on the last paragraph, please. 2 Q. Mr. Flatley, can you please read this last paragraph. 3 Thank you. 4 A. "Jeffrey and Ghislaine complement each other really well 5 and I cannot imagine one without the other. On top of being 6 great partners, they are also the best of friends." 7 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have one moment, 8 please? 9 THE COURT: You may. 10 MS. POMERANTZ: No further questions, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Thank you. Ms. Menninger. 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION 13 BY MS. MENNINGER: 14 Q. Good morning, Mr. Flatley. 15 A. Good morning. 16 Q. How are you? 17 A. I'm fine. 18 Q. Good. The exhibit that represents the hard drive, do you 19 have that in front of you? 20 A. Yes, ma'am. 21 Q. That's GX54; correct? 22 A. Yes, ma'am. 23 Q. And it's your understanding that that hard drive was found 24 within Mr. Epstein's home in New York; correct? 25 A. Yes, ma'am. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018668 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 71 of 264 1497 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross 1 Q. And what you actually saw were three copies of that hard drive; right? 2 A. That is correct. 3 Q. And there was no information about why there were three copies of that same hard drive; correct? 4 A. No, ma'am. 5 Q. And, in fact, the three hard drives were in a box; correct? 6 A. Yes, ma'am. That's how I received them. 7 Q. And when they were in the box, the front of the box had a xerox copy of another hard drive on the front; correct? 8 A. Yes, ma'am. 9 Q. You have no idea why there was a different hard drive xeroxed on the front of the box; right? 10 A. I have my thoughts of why that would be. 11 Q. But you don't know? 12 A. But no one told me or conveyed to me why it was like that, no. 13 Q. And there was evidence tape on the box; right? 14 A. Yes, ma'am. 15 Q. And you didn't break that evidence tape; correct? 16 A. Not for that one, no, ma'am. 17 Q. It was already broken when you received the box? 18 A. That is correct. 19 Q. And there was some indication that the drive had been seized in July of 2007; correct? 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013084 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 71 of 264 1497 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross 1 Q. And what you actually saw were three copies of that hard drive; right? 2 A. That is correct. 3 Q. And there was no information about why there were three copies of that same hard drive; correct? 4 A. No, ma'am. 5 Q. And, in fact, the three hard drives were in a box; correct? 6 A. Yes, ma'am. That's how I received them. 7 Q. And when they were in the box, the front of the box had a xerox copy of another hard drive on the front; correct? 8 A. Yes, ma'am. 9 Q. You have no idea why there was a different hard drive xeroxed on the front of the box; right? 10 A. I have my thoughts of why that would be. 11 Q. But you don't know? 12 A. But no one told me or conveyed to me why it was like that, no. 13 Q. And there was evidence tape on the box; right? 14 A. Yes, ma'am. 15 Q. And you didn't break that evidence tape; correct? 16 A. Not for that one, no, ma'am. 17 Q. It was already broken when you received the box? 18 A. That is correct. 19 Q. And there was some indication that the drive had been seized in July of 2007; correct? 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018669 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 72 of 264 1498 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross 1 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Grounds? 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Foundation. Relevance. 4 THE COURT: Foundation, sustained. 5 BY MS. MENNINGER: 6 Q. Did you write a report in which you talked about the fact that these devices show they were seized in July of 2007? 7 8 A. No, ma'am. 9 Q. And they had a name D. Klyman on them? 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. Hearsay. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. 12 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I'm asking if he can identify Government Exhibit 54 as something he previously 13 referred to with a different indication. It goes to the -- 14 15 THE COURT: You can ask him that question. Sustained on the current question. 16 17 MS. MENNINGER: Okay. 18 BY MS. MENNINGER: 19 Q. Do you recall whether the drive that you examined had a representation on it that it was from D. Klyman? 20 21 A. Not on the drive, no, ma'am. 22 Q. On the box in which the drive was located; correct? 23 A. No, ma'am. 24 Q. On the bag in which the box in which the drive was located? 25 A. I do recall a D. Klyman on a bag for one of these hard SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013085 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 72 of 264 1498 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross 1 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Grounds? 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Foundation. Relevance. 4 THE COURT: Foundation, sustained. 5 BY MS. MENNINGER: 6 Q. Did you write a report in which you talked about the fact that these devices show they were seized in July of 2007? 7 8 A. No, ma'am. 9 Q. And they had a name D. Klyman on them? 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. Hearsay. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. 12 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I'm asking if he can identify Government Exhibit 54 as something he previously 13 referred to with a different indication. It goes to the -- 14 15 THE COURT: You can ask him that question. Sustained on the current question. 16 17 MS. MENNINGER: Okay. 18 BY MS. MENNINGER: 19 Q. Do you recall whether the drive that you examined had a representation on it that it was from D. Klyman? 20 21 A. Not on the drive, no, ma'am. 22 Q. On the box in which the drive was located; correct? 23 A. No, ma'am. 24 Q. On the bag in which the box in which the drive was located? 25 A. I do recall a D. Klyman on a bag for one of these hard SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018670 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 73 of 264 1499 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross drives, but I couldn't tell you if it was that one. Q. And you don't know who he is or what that means; correct? A. No, ma'am. Q. When you examined that hard drive, you don't have the device, the computer that that hard drive was in; correct? A. That is correct. Q. You don't know if it was from a desktop computer; right? A. I can make -- actually, yes, I can say it was from a desktop computer. Q. So not a laptop computer? A. Correct. Q. In a stationary place; right? A. Correct. Q. People don't usually take their desktops with them on airplanes, for example; right? MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. A desktop is more difficult to transport than a laptop; is that fair to say? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So when you examined this hard drive, you actually learned that the hard drive itself was a clone of some other hard drive; right? A. That is correct. Q. So you made a clone of a clone? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013086 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 73 of 264 1499 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross drives, but I couldn't tell you if it was that one. Q. And you don't know who he is or what that means; correct? A. No, ma'am. Q. When you examined that hard drive, you don't have the device, the computer that that hard drive was in; correct? A. That is correct. Q. You don't know if it was from a desktop computer; right? A. I can make -- actually, yes, I can say it was from a desktop computer. Q. So not a laptop computer? A. Correct. Q. In a stationary place; right? A. Correct. Q. People don't usually take their desktops with them on airplanes, for example; right? MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. A desktop is more difficult to transport than a laptop; is that fair to say? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. So when you examined this hard drive, you actually learned that the hard drive itself was a clone of some other hard drive; right? A. That is correct. Q. So you made a clone of a clone? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018671 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 74 of 264 1500 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross 1 A. I did not. I made an image of a clone. 2 Q. Thank you for the clarification. You made an image of a clone; right? 3 4 A. Yes, ma'am. 5 Q. But you were not able to match the clone with whatever it 6 had cloned; right? 7 A. I don't understand the question. 8 Q. Well, on direct examination, you talked about how an image 9 was a bit-for-bit copy of the clone; right? 10 A. Yes, ma'am. 11 Q. And that means you were able to then confirm that the image 12 you made was identical to the clone from which you made it; 13 right? 14 A. That is correct. 15 Q. And then you believe that the thing you were imaging was a 16 clone of something else? 17 A. Yes, ma'am. 18 Q. And you don't have that something else to make sure that 19 you did an identical copy, that the clone was an identical 20 copy; correct? 21 A. Correct, I do not know what happened or who made that clone 22 or where it came from. 23 Q. Right. You just don't know? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. So you don't know whether anything was changed in the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013087 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 74 of 264 1500 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross 1 A. I did not. I made an image of a clone. 2 Q. Thank you for the clarification. You made an image of a clone; right? 3 4 A. Yes, ma'am. 5 Q. But you were not able to match the clone with whatever it had cloned; right? 6 7 A. I don't understand the question. 8 Q. Well, on direct examination, you talked about how an image was a bit-for-bit copy of the clone; right? 9 10 A. Yes, ma'am. 11 Q. And that means you were able to then confirm that the image you made was identical to the clone from which you made it; right? 12 13 A. That is correct. 14 15 Q. And then you believe that the thing you were imaging was a clone of something else? 16 17 A. Yes, ma'am. 18 Q. And you don't have that something else to make sure that you did an identical copy, that the clone was an identical copy; correct? 19 20 A. Correct, I do not know what happened or who made that clone or where it came from. 21 22 23 Q. Right. You just don't know? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. So you don't know whether anything was changed in the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018672 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 75 of 264 1501 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross course of that copying; correct? A. That is correct. Q. You just don't have something to compare it to; right? A. Correct. Q. If you had the other one, you could run the same program; right? MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. If you had the other one, you could run the same program and make sure that they were identical; right? A. That's correct. Q. So, because you don't have that other thing to compare it to - what you think is a desktop; right? A. Correct. Q. - you don't know where that desktop was living when any of these exhibits were created; correct? MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. A. No, I don't. Q. Right. You don't have a location, a geo location for any of these particular documents you've been testifying about; correct? A. That's correct. Q. So the desktop could have been in Florida or in New York or somewhere else; right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013088 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 75 of 264 1501 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross course of that copying; correct? A. That is correct. Q. You just don't have something to compare it to; right? A. Correct. Q. If you had the other one, you could run the same program; right? MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. Q. If you had the other one, you could run the same program and make sure that they were identical; right? A. That's correct. Q. So, because you don't have that other thing to compare it to - what you think is a desktop; right? A. Correct. Q. - you don't know where that desktop was living when any of these exhibits were created; correct? MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. A. No, I don't. Q. Right. You don't have a location, a geo location for any of these particular documents you've been testifying about; correct? A. That's correct. Q. So the desktop could have been in Florida or in New York or somewhere else; right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018673 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 76 of 264 1502 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross 1 A. Yes, that's correct. 2 Q. And so, when you examined these particular documents, you 3 were able to tell, and I think you told the jury about the user 4 that was associated with the computer, you testified was the 5 author; correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. Because that's the piece of information that's contained in 8 the properties, author; right? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. An author is just drawn from the person who set up the 11 computer in the first place; right? 12 A. No. In that particular instance, the author is another 13 user inputtable field from Microsoft Word when you start using 14 it and it's saved to your account. So, where the account name 15 was Ghislaine, the author name was gmax. 16 Q. So when you first set up Word, you put in your name because 17 you're the person who's installing the Word; right? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And then when you create documents from that Word program, 20 it auto populates the name of the author from the person who 21 set it up; right? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. It doesn't actually mean a particular person is sitting in 24 front of Word on a particular time when they say new document; 25 right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013089 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 76 of 264 1502 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross 1 A. Yes, that's correct. 2 Q. And so, when you examined these particular documents, you 3 were able to tell, and I think you told the jury about the user 4 that was associated with the computer, you testified was the 5 author; correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. Because that's the piece of information that's contained in 8 the properties, author; right? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. An author is just drawn from the person who set up the 11 computer in the first place; right? 12 A. No. In that particular instance, the author is another 13 user inputtable field from Microsoft Word when you start using 14 it and it's saved to your account. So, where the account name 15 was Ghislaine, the author name was gmax. 16 Q. So when you first set up Word, you put in your name because 17 you're the person who's installing the Word; right? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And then when you create documents from that Word program, 20 it auto populates the name of the author from the person who 21 set it up; right? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. It doesn't actually mean a particular person is sitting in 24 front of Word on a particular time when they say new document; 25 right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018674 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 77 of 264 1503 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. It just auto populates it from Word; right? 3 A. Yes, that is correct. 4 Q. And it auto populates the created date or the modified date 5 and the other dates you talked about; right? 6 A. Yes, ma'am. 7 Q. That's not a person inputting a created date, it just comes 8 from the program; right? 9 A. Yes, it gets it from the system, from the clock in the 10 computer. 11 Q. So you didn't specify whether this particular computer was 12 password protected; right? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. You don't have any information that this computer was 15 password protected; right? 16 A. In the registry, it said that it was. 17 Q. You were able to get into the computer no problem; right? 18 A. We don't actually get into the computer. We don't go 19 through the operating system. We just take the information 20 that's on the drive and categorize it. The password and user 21 name and all that only protects the computer when you're 22 accessing it through its operating system. 23 Q. And you were accessing it through a hard drive copied 24 cloned image? 25 A. All through our forensic software. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013090 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 77 of 264 1503 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. It just auto populates it from Word; right? 3 A. Yes, that is correct. 4 Q. And it auto populates the created date or the modified date 5 and the other dates you talked about; right? 6 A. Yes, ma'am. 7 Q. That's not a person inputting a created date, it just comes 8 from the program; right? 9 A. Yes, it gets it from the system, from the clock in the 10 computer. 11 Q. So you didn't specify whether this particular computer was 12 password protected; right? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. You don't have any information that this computer was 15 password protected; right? 16 A. In the registry, it said that it was. 17 Q. You were able to get into the computer no problem; right? 18 A. We don't actually get into the computer. We don't go 19 through the operating system. We just take the information 20 that's on the drive and categorize it. The password and user 21 name and all that only protects the computer when you're 22 accessing it through its operating system. 23 Q. And you were accessing it through a hard drive copied 24 cloned image? 25 A. All through our forensic software. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018675 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 78 of 264 1504 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross 1 Q. Which was running off of the image of the clone of something; right? 2 A. Yes, ma'am. 3 Q. And so, you don't know whether it was an easy-to-remember 4 password or whether the computer actually just had the password 5 on a Post-it next to it; right? 6 A. I have no idea. 7 Q. So when you were looking at these documents, these Word 8 documents, you talked about the created date; right? 9 A. Yes, ma'am. 10 Q. And that, as we just discussed, was something that was 11 populated by the computer system; right? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And you didn't then go out and look at that created date to 14 see where any particular person was at that point in time; 15 correct? 16 A. No, ma'am. 17 Q. So if, for example, Government Exhibit 418 had some 18 metadata associated with it in 418B -- could we pull that up, 19 418B. You see that; correct? 20 A. Yes, ma'am. 21 Q. And that tells you that the document was created on January 22 29th, 2002; right? 23 A. Yes, ma'am. 24 Q. And it was only edited and so forth on that day, no other 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013091 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 78 of 264 1504 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross 1 Q. Which was running off of the image of the clone of something; right? 2 A. Yes, ma'am. 3 Q. And so, you don't know whether it was an easy-to-remember 4 password or whether the computer actually just had the password 5 on a Post-it next to it; right? 6 A. I have no idea. 7 Q. So when you were looking at these documents, these Word 8 documents, you talked about the created date; right? 9 A. Yes, ma'am. 10 Q. And that, as we just discussed, was something that was 11 populated by the computer system; right? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And you didn't then go out and look at that created date to 14 see where any particular person was at that point in time; 15 correct? 16 A. No, ma'am. 17 Q. So if, for example, Government Exhibit 418 had some 18 metadata associated with it in 418B -- could we pull that up, 19 418B. You see that; correct? 20 A. Yes, ma'am. 21 Q. And that tells you that the document was created on January 22 29th, 2002; right? 23 A. Yes, ma'am. 24 Q. And it was only edited and so forth on that day, no other 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018676 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 79 of 264 1505 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross 1 day; right? 2 A. It says that it was created on the 29th and it was last 3 saved on the 29th. 4 Q. And last printed on that date; right? 5 A. Yes, ma'am. 6 Q. So, for example, if you were to go get a flight log and 7 tell where gmax was on January 29th, 2002, it might tell you 8 that gmax was in the same place as the computer or a different 9 place; right? 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. 12 Q. You don't know who was actually sitting down creating this 13 document; right? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. You don't even know where the computer was; correct? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. And if you were to ascertain that gmax was in several 18 different places when different of these documents were 19 created, it might lead one to believe that she's not the one 20 who created all these documents; right? 21 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 Q. Other people had access to this computer, potentially; 24 right? 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013092 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 79 of 264 1505 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross 1 day; right? 2 A. It says that it was created on the 29th and it was last 3 saved on the 29th. 4 Q. And last printed on that date; right? 5 A. Yes, ma'am. 6 Q. So, for example, if you were to go get a flight log and 7 tell where gmax was on January 29th, 2002, it might tell you 8 that gmax was in the same place as the computer or a different 9 place; right? 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. 12 Q. You don't know who was actually sitting down creating this 13 document; right? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. You don't even know where the computer was; correct? 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. And if you were to ascertain that gmax was in several 18 different places when different of these documents were 19 created, it might lead one to believe that she's not the one 20 who created all these documents; right? 21 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 Q. Other people had access to this computer, potentially; 24 right? 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018677 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 80 of 264 1506 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross 1 THE COURT: Overruled. 2 A. I have no idea. 3 Q. You don't know whether the computer was sitting in the middle of a kitchen that other people could access it; right? 4 5 A. I don't know where the computer was. 6 Q. You don't know who was around the computer at any particular point in time; correct? 7 8 A. The only thing I know is that there were three user accounts on the computer - two were created by default when the computer was made and the only other user account was Ghislaine. 9 10 11 Q. So anyone who used that computer was using that Ghislaine Maxwell user account; right? 12 13 A. That's correct. 14 15 Q. No other user account was used; correct? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. So if Ghislaine was not present with the computer when a document was made, that would suggest other people had access to the computer; correct? 18 19 A. I don't know who had access to the computer. 20 21 MS. MENNINGER: May I have one moment, your Honor? 22 THE COURT: You may. 23 MS. MENNINGER: No further questions of this witness. 24 Thank you. 25 THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013093 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 80 of 264 1506 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - cross 1 THE COURT: Overruled. 2 A. I have no idea. 3 Q. You don't know whether the computer was sitting in the middle of a kitchen that other people could access it; right? 4 5 A. I don't know where the computer was. 6 Q. You don't know who was around the computer at any particular point in time; correct? 7 8 A. The only thing I know is that there were three user accounts on the computer - two were created by default when the computer was made and the only other user account was Ghislaine. 9 10 11 Q. So anyone who used that computer was using that Ghislaine Maxwell user account; right? 12 13 A. That's correct. 14 15 Q. No other user account was used; correct? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. So if Ghislaine was not present with the computer when a document was made, that would suggest other people had access to the computer; correct? 18 19 A. I don't know who had access to the computer. 20 21 MS. MENNINGER: May I have one moment, your Honor? 22 THE COURT: You may. 23 MS. MENNINGER: No further questions of this witness. 24 Thank you. 25 THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018678 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 81 of 264 1507 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - recross 1 MS. POMERANTZ: Just briefly, your Honor. 2 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 3 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 4 Q. Mr. Flatley, during the course of your review of Government 5 Exhibit 54, did you review emails? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. And as to the emails you reviewed on Government Exhibit 54, 8 how many emails did not include gmax1@mindspring.com on the 9 email chains? 10 A. They were all from that account. 11 MS. POMERANTZ: No further questions, your Honor. 12 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, on that point. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 RECROSS EXAMINATION 15 BY MS. MENNINGER: 16 Q. You know about email clients; right? 17 A. Yes, ma'am. 18 Q. An email client is something like Outlook or Mail; correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And when an email client like Outlook or Mail is installed 21 on a computer, it often goes up to the server and refreshes 22 itself from the server whenever that computer is connected to 23 the internet; correct? 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q. Just like my cellphone may be constantly drawing down SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013094 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 81 of 264 1507 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - recross 1 MS. POMERANTZ: Just briefly, your Honor. 2 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 3 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 4 Q. Mr. Flatley, during the course of your review of Government 5 Exhibit 54, did you review emails? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. And as to the emails you reviewed on Government Exhibit 54, 8 how many emails did not include gmax1@mindspring.com on the 9 email chains? 10 A. They were all from that account. 11 MS. POMERANTZ: No further questions, your Honor. 12 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, on that point. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 RECROSS EXAMINATION 15 BY MS. MENNINGER: 16 Q. You know about email clients; right? 17 A. Yes, ma'am. 18 Q. An email client is something like Outlook or Mail; correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And when an email client like Outlook or Mail is installed 21 on a computer, it often goes up to the server and refreshes 22 itself from the server whenever that computer is connected to 23 the internet; correct? 24 A. That is correct. 25 Q. Just like my cellphone may be constantly drawing down SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018679 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 82 of 264 1508 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - recross emails or sent emails, even though I'm not using it at the moment; correct? A. That is correct. Q. So anytime the computer was connected to the internet, it may have been populating emails through an email client on it; correct? A. That's correct. MS. POMERANTZ: No further questions. Thank you. THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Flatley, you're excused. You may step down. Members of the jury, we'll take our mid morning break. See you in about 15 minutes. Thank you. (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013095 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 82 of 264 1508 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - recross emails or sent emails, even though I'm not using it at the moment; correct? A. That is correct. Q. So anytime the computer was connected to the internet, it may have been populating emails through an email client on it; correct? A. That's correct. MS. POMERANTZ: No further questions. Thank you. THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Flatley, you're excused. You may step down. Members of the jury, we'll take our mid morning break. See you in about 15 minutes. Thank you. (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018680 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 83 of 264 1509 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - recross 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Flatley may step down and out. 3 (Witness excused) 4 Counsel, do we need to speak before the break? 5 MS. POMERANTZ: Nothing from the government, your 6 Honor. 7 THE COURT: I'll be back in 10 if anybody needs to see 8 me before the break ends. Thank you. 9 (Recess) 10 (Continued on next page) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013096 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 83 of 264 1509 LC7Cmax2 Flatley - recross 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Flatley may step down and out. 3 (Witness excused) 4 Counsel, do we need to speak before the break? 5 MS. POMERANTZ: Nothing from the government, your 6 Honor. 7 THE COURT: I'll be back in 10 if anybody needs to see 8 me before the break ends. Thank you. 9 (Recess) 10 (Continued on next page) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018681 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 84 of 264 LC7VMAX3 1510 1 THE COURT: All right. Where are we? Ms. Comey. 2 MS. COMEY: I don't believe we have matters to take 3 up, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 5 MS. COMEY: I think that the next witness will likely 6 go past the lunch break, so we can deal with the issue with 7 Brian hopefully during the lunch break. 8 THE COURT: I hadn't totally understood Ms. Moe's 9 point about the potential need to take a witness out of order 10 given the length. And it's fine with me if that's what makes 11 sense and there's no objection from the defense. 12 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. We'll see how long 13 this next witness takes and then go from there. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, might I hand up potential 16 cross-examination exhibits? 17 THE COURT: Will we get there before lunch? 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: I doubt it. 19 MS. COMEY: We might, but unlikely, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Sure. Thank you, Mr. Pagliuca. 21 All right. We can bring in the jury please, 22 Ms. Williams. Thank you. 23 MS. MOE: I'm very sorry for the delay, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Just one second please. We're about to 25 start with the jury. I'm sorry, Ms. Moe, I didn't realize we SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013097 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 84 of 264 1510 LC7VMAX3 1 THE COURT: All right. Where are we? Ms. Comey. 2 MS. COMEY: I don't believe we have matters to take 3 up, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 5 MS. COMEY: I think that the next witness will likely 6 go past the lunch break, so we can deal with the issue with 7 Brian hopefully during the lunch break. 8 THE COURT: I hadn't totally understood Ms. Moe's 9 point about the potential need to take a witness out of order 10 given the length. And it's fine with me if that's what makes 11 sense and there's no objection from the defense. 12 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. We'll see how long 13 this next witness takes and then go from there. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, might I hand up potential 16 cross-examination exhibits? 17 THE COURT: Will we get there before lunch? 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: I doubt it. 19 MS. COMEY: We might, but unlikely, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Sure. Thank you, Mr. Pagliuca. 21 All right. We can bring in the jury please, 22 Ms. Williams. Thank you. 23 MS. MOE: I'm very sorry for the delay, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Just one second please. We're about to 25 start with the jury. I'm sorry, Ms. Moe, I didn't realize we SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018682 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 85 of 264 1511 LC7VMAX3 1 were waiting for you. 2 MS. MOE: No, your Honor. I just apologize. I got a 3 message saying that folks were waiting for me, so I apologize 4 for being late. 5 THE COURT: Oh, no, no. That's fine. Everybody has a 6 lot going on. I understand. 7 (Jury present) 8 THE COURT: Thank you, members of the jury. 9 Ms. Comey, the government may call its next witness. 10 MS. COMEY: The government calls Carolyn. 11 THE COURT: The witness testifying under the name 12 Carolyn may come forward. 13 CAROLYN, 14 called as a witness by the Government, 15 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 16 THE COURT: Once seated, please remove your mask. 17 This witness will be testifying under the pseudonym 18 Carolyn. I remind the sketch artists that my order is in place 19 requiring no exact likenesses of the witnesses testifying under 20 pseudonym. 21 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, just to be clear, this witness 22 is testifying just under her first name, not a pseudonym. But 23 we would ask the same order be in place. 24 THE COURT: Thank you, Ms. Comey. 25 The witness is testifying under her first name, and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013098 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 85 of 264 1511 LC7VMAX3 1 were waiting for you. 2 MS. MOE: No, your Honor. I just apologize. I got a 3 message saying that folks were waiting for me, so I apologize 4 for being late. 5 THE COURT: Oh, no, no. That's fine. Everybody has a 6 lot going on. I understand. 7 (Jury present) 8 THE COURT: Thank you, members of the jury. 9 Ms. Comey, the government may call its next witness. 10 MS. COMEY: The government calls Carolyn. 11 THE COURT: The witness testifying under the name 12 Carolyn may come forward. 13 CAROLYN, 14 called as a witness by the Government, 15 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 16 THE COURT: Once seated, please remove your mask. 17 This witness will be testifying under the pseudonym 18 Carolyn. I remind the sketch artists that my order is in place 19 requiring no exact likenesses of the witnesses testifying under 20 pseudonym. 21 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, just to be clear, this witness 22 is testifying just under her first name, not a pseudonym. But 23 we would ask the same order be in place. 24 THE COURT: Thank you, Ms. Comey. 25 The witness is testifying under her first name, and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018683 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 86 of 264 1512 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct the anonymity order with respect to exact likenesses applies. Go ahead, Ms. Comey. MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. May I inquire? THE COURT: You may. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. COMEY: Q. Good morning. A. Good morning. Q. What's your first name? A. Carolyn. Q. Could you spell that for us please. A. C-A-R-O-L-Y-N. Q. Leading up to this trial, Carolyn, did you ask to testify under just your first name to protect your privacy? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. I'd like to ask you to please take a look at the binder in front of you. Could you please turn to Government Exhibit 11. Let us know when you're there. A. I'm here. Q. Do you recognize that? A. Yes. Q. What is that? A. My birth certificate. THE COURT: Sorry, Carolyn. If you could come closer SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013099 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 86 of 264 1512 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct the anonymity order with respect to exact likenesses applies. Go ahead, Ms. Comey. MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. May I inquire? THE COURT: You may. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. COMEY: Q. Good morning. A. Good morning. Q. What's your first name? A. Carolyn. Q. Could you spell that for us please. A. C-A-R-O-L-Y-N. Q. Leading up to this trial, Carolyn, did you ask to testify under just your first name to protect your privacy? A. Yes, ma'am. Q. I'd like to ask you to please take a look at the binder in front of you. Could you please turn to Government Exhibit 11. Let us know when you're there. A. I'm here. Q. Do you recognize that? A. Yes. Q. What is that? A. My birth certificate. THE COURT: Sorry, Carolyn. If you could come closer SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018684 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 87 of 264 1513 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct to the microphone, please. A. My birth certificate. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I would ask that the jury be permitted to turn to Government Exhibit 11 in their binders, please. THE COURT: Which is admitted? MS. COMEY: Which is admitted, yes, your Honor. THE COURT: All right. Without objection? MR. PAGLIUCA: No objection. THE COURT: Thank you. Jury, please turn to GX-11. BY MS. COMEY: Q. Carolyn, at the top of the page here, without saying it out loud, do you see the name at the very top? A. Yes. Q. Is that your full name? A. Yes. Q. And is the date of birth in the top right-hand corner your date of birth? A. Yes. Q. Thank you. You can set that aside. And your Honor, I'd ask that the jurors be permitted to put their binders back under their chairs. THE COURT: Yes. Thank you. Please do so, jury. Thank you. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013100 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 87 of 264 1513 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct to the microphone, please. A. My birth certificate. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I would ask that the jury be permitted to turn to Government Exhibit 11 in their binders, please. THE COURT: Which is admitted? MS. COMEY: Which is admitted, yes, your Honor. THE COURT: All right. Without objection? MR. PAGLIUCA: No objection. THE COURT: Thank you. Jury, please turn to GX-11. BY MS. COMEY: Q. Carolyn, at the top of the page here, without saying it out loud, do you see the name at the very top? A. Yes. Q. Is that your full name? A. Yes. Q. And is the date of birth in the top right-hand corner your date of birth? A. Yes. Q. Thank you. You can set that aside. And your Honor, I'd ask that the jurors be permitted to put their binders back under their chairs. THE COURT: Yes. Thank you. Please do so, jury. Thank you. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018685 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 88 of 264 1514 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Carolyn, where did you grow up? 2 A. In New York. 3 Q. And then did you move somewhere from New York? 4 A. Yes, I moved down here to Florida. 5 Q. And in what year did you move to Florida? 6 A. In 1999. 7 Q. I'm going to ask you to speak into the microphone. 8 A. 1999. 9 Q. Thank you. 10 Carolyn, what is the last kind of school you attended? 11 A. Middle school. 12 Q. What is the last grade you attended before dropping out in middle school? 13 A. Seventh. 14 Q. After you dropped out in seventh grade, did you ever go back to school? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Carolyn, have you used drugs in your life? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Have you been addicted to drugs in your life? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What drugs have you been addicted to? 21 A. Pain pills and cocaine. 22 Q. I want to talk a little bit about when you were in middle school. Where did you go to middle school? 23 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013101 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 88 of 264 1514 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Carolyn, where did you grow up? 2 A. In New York. 3 Q. And then did you move somewhere from New York? 4 A. Yes, I moved down here to Florida. 5 Q. And in what year did you move to Florida? 6 A. In 1999. 7 Q. I'm going to ask you to speak into the microphone. 8 A. 1999. 9 Q. Thank you. 10 Carolyn, what is the last kind of school you attended? 11 A. Middle school. 12 Q. What is the last grade you attended before dropping out in middle school? 13 A. Seventh. 14 Q. After you dropped out in seventh grade, did you ever go back to school? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Carolyn, have you used drugs in your life? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Have you been addicted to drugs in your life? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What drugs have you been addicted to? 21 A. Pain pills and cocaine. 22 Q. I want to talk a little bit about when you were in middle school. Where did you go to middle school? 23 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018686 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 89 of 264 1515 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. At H. L. Watkins. 2 Q. In what town is H. L. Watkins? 3 A. Palm Beach Gardens. 4 Q. Is that in Florida? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. When you were 14 years old, who lived at home with you? 7 A. My mom and my brothers. 8 Q. Are your brothers older or younger than you? 9 A. Younger. 10 Q. What was your life like at home when you were 14 years old? 11 A. I was allowed to do whatever I wanted. 12 Q. Why is that? 13 A. Because my mom was an alcoholic and a drug addict. 14 Q. When you were between the ages of 14 and 16, how did you make money? 15 16 A. I went to Mr. Epstein's house and got money that way. 17 Q. How did you first meet -- and when you say "Mr. Epstein," do you know his full name? 18 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What's his full name? 21 A. Jeffrey Epstein. 22 Q. How did you first meet Jeffrey Epstein? 23 A. Through the guy I was dating. 24 Q. What's the first name of the guy you were dating when you were 14? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013102 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 89 of 264 1515 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. At H. L. Watkins. 2 Q. In what town is H. L. Watkins? 3 A. Palm Beach Gardens. 4 Q. Is that in Florida? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. When you were 14 years old, who lived at home with you? 7 A. My mom and my brothers. 8 Q. Are your brothers older or younger than you? 9 A. Younger. 10 Q. What was your life like at home when you were 14 years old? 11 A. I was allowed to do whatever I wanted. 12 Q. Why is that? 13 A. Because my mom was an alcoholic and a drug addict. 14 Q. When you were between the ages of 14 and 16, how did you make money? 15 16 A. I went to Mr. Epstein's house and got money that way. 17 Q. How did you first meet -- and when you say "Mr. Epstein," do you know his full name? 18 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What's his full name? 21 A. Jeffrey Epstein. 22 Q. How did you first meet Jeffrey Epstein? 23 A. Through the guy I was dating. 24 Q. What's the first name of the guy you were dating when you were 14? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018687 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 90 of 264 1516 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Shawn. 2 Q. Can you spell that for us? 3 A. S-H-A-W-N. 4 Q. How did you meet Shawn? 5 A. He lives across the street from me. 6 Q. In West Palm Beach? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. About how old were you when you first started dating Shawn? 9 A. Thirteen. 10 Q. About how old was Shawn when you first started dating him? 11 A. Seventeen. 12 Q. I'd like you to please turn back to the binder and pull out what's been marked for identification has Government Exhibit 20. Let us know when you're there. 14 15 A. I'm sorry, which exhibit? 16 Q. Two zero, 20. 17 A. I'm here. 18 Q. Is the name on that exhibit, without saying it out loud, Shawn's full name? 19 20 A. Yes. 21 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this exhibit under seal. 22 23 MR. PAGLIUCA: No objection. 24 THE COURT: Thank you. 25 GX-20 is admitted under seal to protect the identity SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013103 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 90 of 264 1516 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Shawn. 2 Q. Can you spell that for us? 3 A. S-H-A-W-N. 4 Q. How did you meet Shawn? 5 A. He lives across the street from me. 6 Q. In West Palm Beach? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. About how old were you when you first started dating Shawn? 9 A. Thirteen. 10 Q. About how old was Shawn when you first started dating him? 11 A. Seventeen. 12 Q. I'd like you to please turn back to the binder and pull out what's been marked for identification has Government Exhibit 20. Let us know when you're there. 14 15 A. I'm sorry, which exhibit? 16 Q. Two zero, 20. 17 A. I'm here. 18 Q. Is the name on that exhibit, without saying it out loud, Shawn's full name? 19 20 A. Yes. 21 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this exhibit under seal. 22 23 MR. PAGLIUCA: No objection. 24 THE COURT: Thank you. 25 GX-20 is admitted under seal to protect the identity SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018688 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 91 of 264 1517 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct of the third party and the witness. (Government's Exhibit 20 received in evidence) MS. COMEY: Your Honor, may we have the jurors please turn to this exhibit in their binders. THE COURT: They may. Please take out your binders. GX-20. MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. I think the jurors can put the binders back down. THE COURT: Okay. Please do so, jury. BY MS. COMEY: Q. Carolyn, when you first met Shawn, how old did you tell him you were? A. Seventeen. Q. How, if at all, to your knowledge, did Shawn learn how old you actually were? A. I was going -- I had a birthday and I was going to be 14. Q. Did he come to your 14th birthday party? A. Yeah. Q. And is that how he learned your actual age? A. Yeah. THE COURT: I just ask again, Carolyn, please speak directly into the mic so everyone can hear you. Thank you. Q. How did Shawn lead you to meeting Jeffrey Epstein? A. Through friends of his, Virginia Roberts and Tony Figueroa. Q. How did you meet Virginia? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013104 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 91 of 264 1517 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct of the third party and the witness. (Government's Exhibit 20 received in evidence) MS. COMEY: Your Honor, may we have the jurors please turn to this exhibit in their binders. THE COURT: They may. Please take out your binders. GX-20. MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. I think the jurors can put the binders back down. THE COURT: Okay. Please do so, jury. BY MS. COMEY: Q. Carolyn, when you first met Shawn, how old did you tell him you were? A. Seventeen. Q. How, if at all, to your knowledge, did Shawn learn how old you actually were? A. I was going -- I had a birthday and I was going to be 14. Q. Did he come to your 14th birthday party? A. Yeah. Q. And is that how he learned your actual age? A. Yeah. THE COURT: I just ask again, Carolyn, please speak directly into the mic so everyone can hear you. Thank you. Q. How did Shawn lead you to meeting Jeffrey Epstein? A. Through friends of his, Virginia Roberts and Tony Figueroa. Q. How did you meet Virginia? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018689 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 92 of 264 1518 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Through Shawn. 2 Q. About how old were you when you met Virginia? 3 A. Fourteen. 4 MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 113. 5 6 Q. Carolyn, do you recognize the person on the screen in front of you? 7 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Who is that? 10 A. That's Virginia. 11 Q. Is that the same Virginia we were just talking about? 12 A. Yes, ma'am. 13 MS. COMEY: We can take that down. Thank you. 14 Q. Who was Tony in relation to Virginia? 15 A. Her boyfriend. 16 Q. What would you, Shawn, Tony, and Virginia do together when you were 14 years old? 17 18 A. We would smoke pot. 19 Q. How do you remember Jeffrey Epstein first coming up with that group? 20 21 A. Virginia asked me if I wanted to go make money. 22 Q. Did she tell you what you would need to do to make that money? 23 24 A. Not right away. 25 Q. Before you ultimately went, did she tell you? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013105 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 92 of 264 1518 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Through Shawn. 2 Q. About how old were you when you met Virginia? 3 A. Fourteen. 4 MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 113. 5 6 Q. Carolyn, do you recognize the person on the screen in front of you? 7 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Who is that? 10 A. That's Virginia. 11 Q. Is that the same Virginia we were just talking about? 12 A. Yes, ma'am. 13 MS. COMEY: We can take that down. Thank you. 14 Q. Who was Tony in relation to Virginia? 15 A. Her boyfriend. 16 Q. What would you, Shawn, Tony, and Virginia do together when you were 14 years old? 17 18 A. We would smoke pot. 19 Q. How do you remember Jeffrey Epstein first coming up with that group? 20 21 A. Virginia asked me if I wanted to go make money. 22 Q. Did she tell you what you would need to do to make that money? 23 24 A. Not right away. 25 Q. Before you ultimately went, did she tell you? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018690 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 93 of 264 1519 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. No. 2 Q. What did she tell you? 3 A. That we were going to go to her friend's house who lived on Palm Beach Island, and I was going to meet one of her wealthy friends. 4 5 6 Q. And do what? 7 A. Give him a massage. 8 Q. How did you respond? 9 A. Okay. I said okay. 10 Q. Why did you say okay? 11 A. Because I was going to make a lot of money. 12 Q. About how old were you the first time you went to Jeffrey Epstein's house? 13 14 A. Fourteen. 15 Q. Do you remember about what time of year it was the year you were 14? 16 17 A. Yes. It is around spring, like going into summer. 18 Q. How did you get to Jeffrey Epstein's house that first time? 19 A. Virginia drove me. 20 Q. When you got to Jeffrey Epstein's house -- withdrawn. 21 Where was Jeffrey Epstein's house? 22 A. On Palm Beach Island. 23 Q. What did the outside of the house look like that first day you went there? 24 25 A. I could tell it was a mansion and it was pink. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013106 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 93 of 264 1519 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. No. 2 Q. What did she tell you? 3 A. That we were going to go to her friend's house who lived on Palm Beach Island, and I was going to meet one of her wealthy friends. 4 5 6 Q. And do what? 7 A. Give him a massage. 8 Q. How did you respond? 9 A. Okay. I said okay. 10 Q. Why did you say okay? 11 A. Because I was going to make a lot of money. 12 Q. About how old were you the first time you went to Jeffrey Epstein's house? 13 14 A. Fourteen. 15 Q. Do you remember about what time of year it was the year you were 14? 16 17 A. Yes. It is around spring, like going into summer. 18 Q. How did you get to Jeffrey Epstein's house that first time? 19 A. Virginia drove me. 20 Q. When you got to Jeffrey Epstein's house -- withdrawn. 21 Where was Jeffrey Epstein's house? 22 A. On Palm Beach Island. 23 Q. What did the outside of the house look like that first day you went there? 24 25 A. I could tell it was a mansion and it was pink. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018691 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 94 of 264 1520 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Did you go there multiple times after that? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did the color of the house change at some point? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. To what? 6 A. White. 7 Q. That first day when you got to Jeffrey Epstein's house, who went inside? 8 A. Me and Virginia. 9 Q. What room did you walk into? 10 A. The kitchen. 11 Q. When you walked into the kitchen, what happened? 12 A. We were greeted by Ms. Maxwell. 13 Q. What did Ms. Maxwell look like? 14 A. An older lady. 15 Q. Can you describe her. 16 A. She had an accent and she had like shoulder-length black hair. 17 Q. How did you learn her name? 18 A. She introduced herself. 19 Q. Did she say just her last name or both her first and her last name? 20 A. Her first and her last name. 21 Q. What did you call her? 22 A. Maxwell. 23 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013107 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 94 of 264 1520 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Did you go there multiple times after that? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did the color of the house change at some point? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. To what? 6 A. White. 7 Q. That first day when you got to Jeffrey Epstein's house, who went inside? 8 A. Me and Virginia. 9 Q. What room did you walk into? 10 A. The kitchen. 11 Q. When you walked into the kitchen, what happened? 12 A. We were greeted by Ms. Maxwell. 13 Q. What did Ms. Maxwell look like? 14 A. An older lady. 15 Q. Can you describe her. 16 A. She had an accent and she had like shoulder-length black hair. 17 Q. How did you learn her name? 18 A. She introduced herself. 19 Q. Did she say just her last name or both her first and her last name? 20 A. Her first and her last name. 21 Q. What did you call her? 22 A. Maxwell. 23 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018692 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 95 of 264 1521 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct Q. Why did you call her Maxwell instead of using her first name? A. Because I couldn't exactly pronounce her first name correctly. Q. When Maxwell greeted you in the kitchen, what, if anything, did Virginia say to Maxwell? A. That I was her friend. Q. Did she say your name? A. Yes. Q. What did she say? A. She said, This is my friend Carolyn. Q. And what did Maxwell say? A. You can bring her upstairs and show her what to do. Q. What happened next? A. We walked up the stairs that were in the kitchen, and we passed a bunch of bedrooms and entered into Mr. Epstein's bedroom, into his bathroom area. Q. Can you describe the bathroom that you went into off of Mr. Epstein's bedroom. A. Yes. When you walk in, there is a sink to your right, there is a dresser to the left, there is a closet area, there is a toilet area, there is a steam room, and then there's a shower. Q. What, if any, seating do you remember? A. There is an ugly polka-dotted couch. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013108 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 95 of 264 1521 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Why did you call her Maxwell instead of using her first name? 2 name? 3 A. Because I couldn't exactly pronounce her first name 4 correctly. 5 Q. When Maxwell greeted you in the kitchen, what, if anything, 6 did Virginia say to Maxwell? 7 A. That I was her friend. 8 Q. Did she say your name? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What did she say? 11 A. She said, This is my friend Carolyn. 12 Q. And what did Maxwell say? 13 A. You can bring her upstairs and show her what to do. 14 Q. What happened next? 15 A. We walked up the stairs that were in the kitchen, and we 16 passed a bunch of bedrooms and entered into Mr. Epstein's 17 bedroom, into his bathroom area. 18 Q. Can you describe the bathroom that you went into off of 19 Mr. Epstein's bedroom. 20 A. Yes. When you walk in, there is a sink to your right, 21 there is a dresser to the left, there is a closet area, there 22 is a toilet area, there is a steam room, and then there's a 23 shower. 24 Q. What, if any, seating do you remember? 25 A. There is an ugly polka-dotted couch. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018693 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 96 of 264 1522 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. After you went into that room with Virginia, what did Virginia show you? 2 A. Where the massage table was. 3 Q. Then what happened? 4 A. We walked into the little closet area and she was pulling out the massage table. And I was looking at all the photos that were on the wall. 5 Q. What else did Virginia show you, if anything? 6 A. Where all the massage oils and lotions were kept. 7 Q. And where was that? 8 A. In the bottom drawer of the dresser that is on your left-hand side. 9 Q. After the massage table was set up, what did you and Virginia do next? 10 A. Virginia had taken off her clothes and she asked me if I would be comfortable taking off mine. And I told her I would like to keep my bra and underwear on. 11 Q. So at that point what was Virginia wearing? 12 A. Nothing. 13 Q. And what were you wearing? 14 A. My bra and underwear. 15 Q. What happened next? 16 A. Mr. Epstein came into the room. 17 Q. Then what happened? 18 A. He brushed his teeth and then laid face down on the massage table. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 96 of 264 1522 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. After you went into that room with Virginia, what did Virginia show you? 2 A. Where the massage table was. 3 Q. Then what happened? 4 A. We walked into the little closet area and she was pulling out the massage table. And I was looking at all the photos that were on the wall. 5 Q. What else did Virginia show you, if anything? 6 A. Where all the massage oils and lotions were kept. 7 Q. And where was that? 8 A. In the bottom drawer of the dresser that is on your left-hand side. 9 Q. After the massage table was set up, what did you and Virginia do next? 10 A. Virginia had taken off her clothes and she asked me if I would be comfortable taking off mine. And I told her I would like to keep my bra and underwear on. 11 Q. So at that point what was Virginia wearing? 12 A. Nothing. 13 Q. And what were you wearing? 14 A. My bra and underwear. 15 Q. What happened next? 16 A. Mr. Epstein came into the room. 17 Q. Then what happened? 18 A. He brushed his teeth and then laid face down on the massage table. 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018694 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 97 of 264 1523 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 table. 2 Q. While Mr. Epstein was face down on the massage table, what did you and Virginia do? 3 A. We massaged the backs of his legs up to his buttocks. 4 Q. Then what happened? 5 A. After 45 minutes, he had turned over. 6 Q. What happened when Mr. Epstein turned over? 7 A. Virginia got on top of him. 8 Q. And what did you see Virginia and Mr. Epstein doing? 9 A. Having sex. 10 Q. Where were you while Virginia and Mr. Epstein were having sex on the massage table? 11 A. I was sitting on the couch right in front of them. 12 Q. Did Mr. Epstein touch you during this first massage? 13 A. No. 14 Q. After that ended, what happened next? 15 A. I was paid. 16 Q. Where did the money come from? 17 A. It was on top of the sink. 18 Q. In that same bathroom? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Who got money? 21 A. Me and Virginia. 22 Q. How much money did you get? 23 A. $300. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013110 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 97 of 264 1523 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct table. Q. While Mr. Epstein was face down on the massage table, what did you and Virginia do? A. We massaged the backs of his legs up to his buttocks. Q. Then what happened? A. After 45 minutes, he had turned over. Q. What happened when Mr. Epstein turned over? A. Virginia got on top of him. Q. And what did you see Virginia and Mr. Epstein doing? A. Having sex. Q. Where were you while Virginia and Mr. Epstein were having sex on the massage table? A. I was sitting on the couch right in front of them. Q. Did Mr. Epstein touch you during this first massage? A. No. Q. After that ended, what happened next? A. I was paid. Q. Where did the money come from? A. It was on top of the sink. Q. In that same bathroom? A. Yes. Q. Who got money? A. Me and Virginia. Q. How much money did you get? A. $300. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018695 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 98 of 264 1524 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. How much money did Virginia get? 2 A. I'm not exactly sure. 3 Q. What denominations were the bills? 4 A. Hundred dollar bills. 5 Q. After that first time, did you go back to Jeffrey Epstein's house with Virginia again? 6 7 A. No. 8 Q. Why not? 9 A. Because I didn't have to. 10 Q. Why not? 11 A. Because when we were leaving, Maxwell had asked me for my telephone number. 12 13 Q. And did you give her your telephone number? 14 A. Yes. 15 MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 115. 16 17 Q. Carolyn, do you recognize the person in this photograph? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Who is that? 20 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I need the witness to speak into the microphone. 21 22 A. That's Mrs. Maxwell. 23 THE COURT: Thank you. 24 MS. COMEY: Now, can we please go to Government Exhibit 112, Ms. Drescher. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013111 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 98 of 264 1524 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. How much money did Virginia get? 2 A. I'm not exactly sure. 3 Q. What denominations were the bills? 4 A. Hundred dollar bills. 5 Q. After that first time, did you go back to Jeffrey Epstein's house with Virginia again? 6 7 A. No. 8 Q. Why not? 9 A. Because I didn't have to. 10 Q. Why not? 11 A. Because when we were leaving, Maxwell had asked me for my telephone number. 12 13 Q. And did you give her your telephone number? 14 A. Yes. 15 MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 115. 16 17 Q. Carolyn, do you recognize the person in this photograph? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Who is that? 20 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I need the witness to speak into the microphone. 21 22 A. That's Mrs. Maxwell. 23 THE COURT: Thank you. 24 MS. COMEY: Now, can we please go to Government Exhibit 112, Ms. Drescher. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018696 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 99 of 264 1525 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Do you recognize the person in this photograph? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Who is that? 4 A. That's Mr. Epstein. 5 MS. COMEY: Let's take that down please, Ms. Drescher. 6 Q. Carolyn, in total, approximately how many times did you go 7 over to Mr. Epstein's house to give him massages? 8 A. Over 100. 9 Q. About how often did you go over to his house to provide 10 those massages? 11 A. Two to three times a week. 12 Q. About how old were you the first time you went over to his 13 house? 14 A. Fourteen. 15 Q. And about how old were you the last time you went over to 16 his house? 17 A. Eighteen. 18 Q. Do you remember the exact details of every encounter you 19 had at that house? 20 A. A lot of them run together. 21 Q. Do some of those details and events stand out more in your 22 mind though? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Carolyn, I'd like to ask you -- go ahead and get a drink. 25 Would you please pick up the binder again and turn to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013112 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 99 of 264 1525 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Do you recognize the person in this photograph? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Who is that? 4 A. That's Mr. Epstein. 5 MS. COMEY: Let's take that down please, Ms. Drescher. 6 Q. Carolyn, in total, approximately how many times did you go 7 over to Mr. Epstein's house to give him massages? 8 A. Over 100. 9 Q. About how often did you go over to his house to provide 10 those massages? 11 A. Two to three times a week. 12 Q. About how old were you the first time you went over to his 13 house? 14 A. Fourteen. 15 Q. And about how old were you the last time you went over to 16 his house? 17 A. Eighteen. 18 Q. Do you remember the exact details of every encounter you 19 had at that house? 20 A. A lot of them run together. 21 Q. Do some of those details and events stand out more in your 22 mind though? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Carolyn, I'd like to ask you -- go ahead and get a drink. 25 Would you please pick up the binder again and turn to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018697 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 100 of 264 1526 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 104. A. One 0 what? Q. 104. Do you recognize that? A. Yes, I do. Q. What is it? A. A picture of me when I was 14. Q. Does this fairly and accurately depict what you looked like when you went to Jeffrey Epstein's house when you were 14 years old? A. Yes. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this exhibit under seal. MR. PAGLIUCA: No objection. THE COURT: Thank you. GX-104 is admitted under seal to protect the anonymity of the witness who I've permitted to testify under her first name. (Government's Exhibit 104 received in evidence) MS. COMEY: Your Honor, may we please ask the jurors to pull out their binders and look at Government Exhibit 104. THE COURT: Yes. Please, jurors, take your binders. GX-104. MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. The jurors can set their binders aside. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013113 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 100 of 264 1526 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 104. A. One 0 what? Q. 104. Do you recognize that? A. Yes, I do. Q. What is it? A. A picture of me when I was 14. Q. Does this fairly and accurately depict what you looked like when you went to Jeffrey Epstein's house when you were 14 years old? A. Yes. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this exhibit under seal. MR. PAGLIUCA: No objection. THE COURT: Thank you. GX-104 is admitted under seal to protect the anonymity of the witness who I've permitted to testify under her first name. (Government's Exhibit 104 received in evidence) MS. COMEY: Your Honor, may we please ask the jurors to pull out their binders and look at Government Exhibit 104. THE COURT: Yes. Please, jurors, take your binders. GX-104. MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. The jurors can set their binders aside. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018698 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 101 of 264 1527 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 THE COURT: All right. Please do. Thank you. 2 BY MS. COMEY: 3 Q. Carolyn, how would you schedule times to go to Jeffrey Epstein's house for massages? 4 A. Maxwell would call and set up appointment times. 5 Q. Would anyone else ever call? 6 A. I sometimes called and there over time was Sarah Kellen that would call. 7 Q. Let me ask you some questions about that. 8 During about what time period do you remember Maxwell being the person who would call to schedule massage appointments with Jeffrey Epstein? 9 A. For like the first year or two. 10 Q. And then after that, who would call you to schedule your appointments? 11 A. Sarah or I would call. 12 Q. Now, after Sarah started being the person to call you, did you still see Maxwell at Epstein's house? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Where would she be? 15 A. In an office area off the kitchen. 16 Q. And you said that sometimes you would call to make appointments? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Why would you call? 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013114 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 101 of 264 1527 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 THE COURT: All right. Please do. Thank you. 2 BY MS. COMEY: 3 Q. Carolyn, how would you schedule times to go to Jeffrey Epstein's house for massages? 4 A. Maxwell would call and set up appointment times. 5 Q. Would anyone else ever call? 6 A. I sometimes called and there over time was Sarah Kellen that would call. 7 Q. Let me ask you some questions about that. 8 During about what time period do you remember Maxwell being the person who would call to schedule massage appointments with Jeffrey Epstein? 9 A. For like the first year or two. 10 Q. And then after that, who would call you to schedule your appointments? 11 A. Sarah or I would call. 12 Q. Now, after Sarah started being the person to call you, did you still see Maxwell at Epstein's house? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Where would she be? 15 A. In an office area off the kitchen. 16 Q. And you said that sometimes you would call to make appointments? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Why would you call? 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018699 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 102 of 264 1528 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Because I was young and $300 was a lot of money to me. 2 Q. What phone numbers would Maxwell and Sarah call you on in order to make massage appointments? 3 A. Either my cell phone, my mom's cell phone, or Shawn's home phone. 4 Q. How did they get all of those numbers? 5 A. I give -- I had given them to Maxwell. 6 Q. Why did you give extra numbers to Maxwell? 7 A. In case she couldn't get a hold of me on one. 8 Q. Was that your idea? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Do you remember any of those phone numbers? 11 A. No, I can't. 12 Q. Do you remember your mom's cell phone number? 13 A. That I do. 14 Q. Okay. But you don't remember your own phone number or Shawn's number? 15 A. I -- I've blocked it out. It's been a very long time. 16 Q. This morning, Carolyn, did I ask you to write your mom's cell phone number down on a piece of paper? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Could you please turn now to what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 608 in your binder. Are you there? 19 A. Yes. 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 21 DOJ-OGR-00013115 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 102 of 264 1528 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Because I was young and $300 was a lot of money to me. 2 Q. What phone numbers would Maxwell and Sarah call you on in order to make massage appointments? 3 A. Either my cell phone, my mom's cell phone, or Shawn's home phone. 4 Q. How did they get all of those numbers? 5 A. I give -- I had given them to Maxwell. 6 Q. Why did you give extra numbers to Maxwell? 7 A. In case she couldn't get a hold of me on one. 8 Q. Was that your idea? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Do you remember any of those phone numbers? 11 A. No, I can't. 12 Q. Do you remember your mom's cell phone number? 13 A. That I do. 14 Q. Okay. But you don't remember your own phone number or Shawn's number? 15 A. I -- I've blocked it out. It's been a very long time. 16 Q. This morning, Carolyn, did I ask you to write your mom's cell phone number down on a piece of paper? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Could you please turn now to what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 608 in your binder. 19 Are you there? 20 A. Yes. 21 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018700 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 103 of 264 1529 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Do you recognize that? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What is that? 4 A. My mother's cell phone number. 5 Q. Is that the phone number you wrote down on a piece of paper this morning? 6 A. Yes. 7 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence under seal. 8 MR. PAGLIUCA: No objection. 9 THE COURT: GX-608 is admitted under seal to protect the anonymity of this witness. 10 (Government's Exhibit 608 received in evidence) 11 MS. COMEY: Thank you. You can set that aside, Carolyn. 12 Q. Carolyn, what is your mother's first name? 13 A. Dorothy. 14 Q. Carolyn, when Maxwell called you to schedule appointments, what did she say to you? 15 A. She would ask if I would be available at this time, sometimes because they would be out of town and be flying in. 16 Q. During those times when Maxwell mentioned that they were flying in, who's the "they" she referred to? 17 A. Her and Mr. Epstein and I don't know who else. 18 Q. And what did Maxwell say about where she and Mr. Epstein 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013116 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 103 of 264 1529 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Do you recognize that? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What is that? 4 A. My mother's cell phone number. 5 Q. Is that the phone number you wrote down on a piece of paper this morning? 6 7 A. Yes. 8 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, the government offers this in evidence under seal. 9 10 MR. PAGLIUCA: No objection. 11 THE COURT: GX-608 is admitted under seal to protect the anonymity of this witness. 12 (Government's Exhibit 608 received in evidence) 13 14 MS. COMEY: Thank you. You can set that aside, Carolyn. 15 16 Q. Carolyn, what is your mother's first name? 17 A. Dorothy. 18 Q. Carolyn, when Maxwell called you to schedule appointments, what did she say to you? 19 20 A. She would ask if I would be available at this time, sometimes because they would be out of town and be flying in. 21 22 Q. During those times when Maxwell mentioned that they were flying in, who's the "they" she referred to? 23 24 A. Her and Mr. Epstein and I don't know who else. 25 Q. And what did Maxwell say about where she and Mr. Epstein SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018701 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 104 of 264 1530 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct were during those conversations? A. Sometimes they said New York. Q. How would that come up? A. Well, they -- she said that they would be flying in from New York, could I be available at this time. Q. And when Sarah would call you to schedule an appointment, what would she say? A. She'd ask me if I would be available at this time. Q. Were you ever present when your mom received a phone call that you later learned was from Maxwell? A. Sometimes, yeah, she would hand me the phone. Q. What do you remember happening on those occasions? A. Just my mom saying, Here, you have a phone call. Q. And then what would happen? A. It would be to schedule an appointment. Q. Were you ever present when Shawn received a phone call on his phone -- A. Yes. Q. -- from Maxwell? What happened? A. Shawn would tell me that I have a phone call and to say yes to the appointment. Q. About how many times do you remember Maxwell saying she was calling from New York? A. Only a couple. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013117 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 104 of 264 1530 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct were during those conversations? A. Sometimes they said New York. Q. How would that come up? A. Well, they -- she said that they would be flying in from New York, could I be available at this time. Q. And when Sarah would call you to schedule an appointment, what would she say? A. She'd ask me if I would be available at this time. Q. Were you ever present when your mom received a phone call that you later learned was from Maxwell? A. Sometimes, yeah, she would hand me the phone. Q. What do you remember happening on those occasions? A. Just my mom saying, Here, you have a phone call. Q. And then what would happen? A. It would be to schedule an appointment. Q. Were you ever present when Shawn received a phone call on his phone -- A. Yes. Q. -- from Maxwell? What happened? A. Shawn would tell me that I have a phone call and to say yes to the appointment. Q. About how many times do you remember Maxwell saying she was calling from New York? A. Only a couple. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018702 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 105 of 264 1531 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Now, you mentioned that sometimes you would reach out to schedule appointments yourself; is that right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And you mentioned that Shawn would tell you to go to these appointments, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Why were you reaching out to go to these appointments? 6 A. For the money. 7 Q. What were you doing with the money? 8 A. I was buying drugs. 9 Q. What drugs were you using? 10 A. Marijuana, cocaine, alcohol, anything that could block out for me to go to the appointment. 11 Q. Did you become addicted to drugs at some point while you were going over to Mr. Epstein's house? 12 A. Yes, unfortunately. 13 Q. What drugs did you become addicted to? 14 A. Cocaine and pain pills. 15 Q. How did you get to Jeffrey Epstein's house for appointments in your home in West Palm Beach to Palm Beach? 16 A. Sometimes it would be by a driver would be sent, or I would take a cab, or Shawn would use my mom's car and drop me off, and my mom has also dropped me off there. 17 Q. Why couldn't you drive yourself? 18 A. Because I wasn't of age. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013118 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 105 of 264 1531 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Now, you mentioned that sometimes you would reach out to schedule appointments yourself; is that right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And you mentioned that Shawn would tell you to go to these appointments, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Why were you reaching out to go to these appointments? 6 A. For the money. 7 Q. What were you doing with the money? 8 A. I was buying drugs. 9 Q. What drugs were you using? 10 A. Marijuana, cocaine, alcohol, anything that could block out for me to go to the appointment. 11 Q. Did you become addicted to drugs at some point while you were going over to Mr. Epstein's house? 12 A. Yes, unfortunately. 13 Q. What drugs did you become addicted to? 14 A. Cocaine and pain pills. 15 Q. How did you get to Jeffrey Epstein's house for appointments in your home in West Palm Beach to Palm Beach? 16 A. Sometimes it would be by a driver would be sent, or I would take a cab, or Shawn would use my mom's car and drop me off, and my mom has also dropped me off there. 17 Q. Why couldn't you drive yourself? 18 A. Because I wasn't of age. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018703 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 106 of 264 1532 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. When you got a cab or a car was sent for you, how did you know that those cars were on the way? 2 A. I was told. 3 Q. By who? 4 A. Either Maxwell or Sarah, whoever called to schedule the appointment. 5 Q. What would they say? 6 A. That we would be sending a cab or a Town Car. 7 Q. Did Shawn ever go inside Jeffrey Epstein's house when he drove you there? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Who, if anyone, did Shawn meet outside of Jeffrey Epstein's house when he went with you there? 10 MR. PAGLIUCA: Objection. 11 Lack of foundation, your Honor, under 602. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. 13 Q. When you and Shawn were together at Jeffrey Epstein's house, did you ever see someone else? 14 A. When we were together at Mr. Epstein's house, yes. 15 Q. Who did you see? 16 A. I mean, he didn't go inside. 17 Q. But when you were outside, did you ever see anyone? 18 A. Yes, Mr. Epstein. 19 Q. How many times did you see Mr. Epstein when Shawn was with you? 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013119 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 106 of 264 1532 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. When you got a cab or a car was sent for you, how did you know that those cars were on the way? 2 A. I was told. 3 Q. By who? 4 A. Either Maxwell or Sarah, whoever called to schedule the appointment. 5 Q. What would they say? 6 A. That we would be sending a cab or a Town Car. 7 Q. Did Shawn ever go inside Jeffrey Epstein's house when he drove you there? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Who, if anyone, did Shawn meet outside of Jeffrey Epstein's house when he went with you there? 10 MR. PAGLIUCA: Objection. 11 Lack of foundation, your Honor, under 602. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. 13 Q. When you and Shawn were together at Jeffrey Epstein's house, did you ever see someone else? 14 A. When we were together at Mr. Epstein's house, yes. 15 Q. Who did you see? 16 A. I mean, he didn't go inside. 17 Q. But when you were outside, did you ever see anyone? 18 A. Yes, Mr. Epstein. 19 Q. How many times did you see Mr. Epstein when Shawn was with you? 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018704 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 107 of 264 1533 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Once. 2 Q. What happened that one time? 3 A. They were talking about the Shelby Cobra that he owned. 4 Q. That who owned? 5 A. Mr. Epstein. 6 Q. Where did that conversation happen? 7 A. In the driveway. 8 Q. Carolyn, did you ever drive yourself to Jeffrey Epstein's house even though you didn't have a license? 9 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. About how many times? 12 A. A few. 13 Q. When you went over to Jeffrey Epstein's house for massage appointments, where did you enter the house each time? 14 15 A. Through the kitchen. 16 Q. During the first few months when you were going over to that house for massages, who did you see when you first entered the kitchen? 17 18 A. Maxwell. 19 20 Q. What, if any, conversations do you remember having with Maxwell when you would meet her in the kitchen? 21 22 A. She would just let me know that Mr. Epstein would be back, he was on a jog or he was -- he'd be back any moment; I could go upstairs and set up. 23 24 Q. When you interacted with Maxwell, what, if any, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013120 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 107 of 264 1533 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Once. 2 Q. What happened that one time? 3 A. They were talking about the Shelby Cobra that he owned. 4 Q. That who owned? 5 A. Mr. Epstein. 6 Q. Where did that conversation happen? 7 A. In the driveway. 8 Q. Carolyn, did you ever drive yourself to Jeffrey Epstein's house even though you didn't have a license? 9 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. About how many times? 12 A. A few. 13 Q. When you went over to Jeffrey Epstein's house for massage appointments, where did you enter the house each time? 14 15 A. Through the kitchen. 16 Q. During the first few months when you were going over to that house for massages, who did you see when you first entered the kitchen? 17 18 A. Maxwell. 19 20 Q. What, if any, conversations do you remember having with Maxwell when you would meet her in the kitchen? 21 22 A. She would just let me know that Mr. Epstein would be back, he was on a jog or he was -- he'd be back any moment; I could go upstairs and set up. 23 24 Q. When you interacted with Maxwell, what, if any, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018705 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 108 of 264 1534 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct conversations did you have with her about your family? A. About my upbringing and things that were going on at the time. Q. What did you tell Maxwell? A. That my mom was an alcoholic, and I had been molested, and just random personal things. Q. What, if any, conversations do you remember having with Maxwell about sexual abuse that you have had experienced in the past? A. I'm sorry, can you repeat that? Q. What conversations do you remember having with her about sexual abuse that you'd experienced? A. I remember telling her that I had been raped and molested by my grandfather starting at the age of four. Q. What, if any, conversations did you have with Maxwell about travel? A. I couldn't travel because I couldn't get a passport because I was too young. And my mom, no matter how messed up she was, there was no way I would be able to leave the country. Q. How did that topic come up? A. I was invited to go to an island. Q. Who invited you? A. Mr. Epstein and Maxwell. Q. And did they invite you together in one conversation or in separate conversations? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013121 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 108 of 264 1534 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct conversations did you have with her about your family? A. About my upbringing and things that were going on at the time. Q. What did you tell Maxwell? A. That my mom was an alcoholic, and I had been molested, and just random personal things. Q. What, if any, conversations do you remember having with Maxwell about sexual abuse that you have had experienced in the past? A. I'm sorry, can you repeat that? Q. What conversations do you remember having with her about sexual abuse that you'd experienced? A. I remember telling her that I had been raped and molested by my grandfather starting at the age of four. Q. What, if any, conversations did you have with Maxwell about travel? A. I couldn't travel because I couldn't get a passport because I was too young. And my mom, no matter how messed up she was, there was no way I would be able to leave the country. Q. How did that topic come up? A. I was invited to go to an island. Q. Who invited you? A. Mr. Epstein and Maxwell. Q. And did they invite you together in one conversation or in separate conversations? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018706 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 109 of 264 1535 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Separate. 2 Q. When you were speaking with Maxwell about that, what did she say? 3 A. She had asked if I ever traveled. And I told her I've been to New York, I used to live there, and just places I've been in the United States. 4 Q. And then where did she invite you to? 5 A. To the island. 6 Q. And how did you respond when Maxwell invited you to the island? 7 A. I told her that I was too young, and there is no way in hell my mom was going to let me leave the country. 8 Q. Did you tell her how old you were? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What did you say? 11 A. I told her I was 14. 12 Q. After you told Maxwell you were 14, did she continue to call you to schedule massage appointments with Jeffrey Epstein? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What, if any, conversations do you remember having with Maxwell about school? 15 A. She had asked me if I had ever -- like, what I wanted to do. And I told her I wanted to become a massage therapist. 16 Q. What, if any, conversations did you have with Maxwell about sex toys? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013122 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 109 of 264 1535 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Separate. 2 Q. When you were speaking with Maxwell about that, what did she say? 3 A. She had asked if I ever traveled. And I told her I've been to New York, I used to live there, and just places I've been in the United States. 4 Q. And then where did she invite you to? 5 A. To the island. 6 Q. And how did you respond when Maxwell invited you to the island? 7 A. I told her that I was too young, and there is no way in hell my mom was going to let me leave the country. 8 Q. Did you tell her how old you were? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What did you say? 11 A. I told her I was 14. 12 Q. After you told Maxwell you were 14, did she continue to call you to schedule massage appointments with Jeffrey Epstein? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What, if any, conversations do you remember having with Maxwell about school? 15 A. She had asked me if I had ever -- like, what I wanted to do. And I told her I wanted to become a massage therapist. 16 Q. What, if any, conversations did you have with Maxwell about sex toys? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018707 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 110 of 264 1536 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. She asked me if I'd ever used them, and I told her no. 2 Q. What, if any, conversations do you remember having with Maxwell about your bra and hip size? 3 A. I was upstairs setting up the massage table. And at that 4 point I was kind of comfortable because I had been there so 5 many times, that at that point I was getting fully nude. And 6 she came in and felt my boobs and my hips and my buttocks and 7 said that -- that Mr. Epstein would -- that I had a great body 8 for Mr. Epstein and his friends. 9 Q. How did that relate to your breast and hip size? 10 A. She just said that I had a good body type. 11 Q. And just so we're clear about who she is? 12 A. Maxwell. 13 Q. You said she felt your boobs. Did she touch you? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Where? 16 A. On my breasts. 17 Q. And where did that happen? 18 A. In the massage room or the bathroom. 19 Q. After that, did she leave the massage room? 20 You have to say the answer. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And then who came in? 23 A. Mr. Epstein. 24 Q. During each massage appointment at Jeffrey Epstein's house, 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013123 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 110 of 264 1536 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. She asked me if I'd ever used them, and I told her no. 2 Q. What, if any, conversations do you remember having with Maxwell about your bra and hip size? 3 A. I was upstairs setting up the massage table. And at that 4 point I was kind of comfortable because I had been there so 5 many times, that at that point I was getting fully nude. And 6 she came in and felt my boobs and my hips and my buttocks and 7 said that -- that Mr. Epstein would -- that I had a great body 8 for Mr. Epstein and his friends. 9 10 Q. How did that relate to your breast and hip size? 11 A. She just said that I had a good body type. 12 Q. And just so we're clear about who she is? 13 A. Maxwell. 14 Q. You said she felt your boobs. Did she touch you? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Where? 17 A. On my breasts. 18 Q. And where did that happen? 19 A. In the massage room or the bathroom. 20 Q. After that, did she leave the massage room? 21 You have to say the answer. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And then who came in? 24 A. Mr. Epstein. 25 Q. During each massage appointment at Jeffrey Epstein's house, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018708 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 111 of 264 1537 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct after you went into the kitchen, where would you go from there? A. Upstairs to set up the massage table. Q. In what room did you set up the massage table? A. In his bathroom. Q. In whose bathroom? A. Mr. Epstein's. Q. Is that the same bathroom you described for us earlier? A. Yes. Q. When you first went into the massage room, what did you do first? A. I would -- well, sometimes the massage table was already set up, and all I would have to do is put the towel on it. And sometimes I would have to open the closet door and pull it out and set it up. Q. After you set up the massage table, what would you do with your clothing? A. I would take them off. Q. At first when you were first going over to that house, what would you wear during the massages? A. I would keep my underwear on. Q. Did that change at some point? A. Yes. Q. What did it change to? A. To me being fully nude. Q. After -- withdrawn. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013124 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 111 of 264 1537 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct after you went into the kitchen, where would you go from there? A. Upstairs to set up the massage table. Q. In what room did you set up the massage table? A. In his bathroom. Q. In whose bathroom? A. Mr. Epstein's. Q. Is that the same bathroom you described for us earlier? A. Yes. Q. When you first went into the massage room, what did you do first? A. I would -- well, sometimes the massage table was already set up, and all I would have to do is put the towel on it. And sometimes I would have to open the closet door and pull it out and set it up. Q. After you set up the massage table, what would you do with your clothing? A. I would take them off. Q. At first when you were first going over to that house, what would you wear during the massages? A. I would keep my underwear on. Q. Did that change at some point? A. Yes. Q. What did it change to? A. To me being fully nude. Q. After -- withdrawn. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018709 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 112 of 264 1538 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Other than Jeffrey Epstein, who else saw you fully 2 naked in the massage room? 3 A. Maxwell, two of Mr. Epstein's friends, and two girls that I 4 don't know who they were. 5 Q. We'll talk about them in a minute. 6 How many times approximately did Maxwell see you fully 7 naked in the massage room? 8 A. Probably about three. 9 Q. Was one of those the time when she touched your breasts? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did she touch you the other two times that you can 12 remember? 13 A. No. 14 Q. After Maxwell saw you naked in the massage room, did she 15 continue calling you to schedule massage appointments with 16 Jeffrey Epstein? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. About how old were you when Maxwell saw you naked in the 19 massage room and touched your breasts? 20 A. I was going to be 15. 21 Q. So were you 14, almost 15? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Did anyone ever photograph you while you were at Jeffrey 24 Epstein's house? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013125 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 112 of 264 1538 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Other than Jeffrey Epstein, who else saw you fully naked in the massage room? 2 A. Maxwell, two of Mr. Epstein's friends, and two girls that I 3 don't know who they were. 4 Q. We'll talk about them in a minute. 5 6 How many times approximately did Maxwell see you fully 7 naked in the massage room? 8 A. Probably about three. 9 Q. Was one of those the time when she touched your breasts? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did she touch you the other two times that you can 12 remember? 13 A. No. 14 Q. After Maxwell saw you naked in the massage room, did she 15 continue calling you to schedule massage appointments with 16 Jeffrey Epstein? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. About how old were you when Maxwell saw you naked in the 19 massage room and touched your breasts? 20 A. I was going to be 15. 21 Q. So were you 14, almost 15? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Did anyone ever photograph you while you were at Jeffrey 24 Epstein's house? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018710 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 113 of 264 1539 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Who photographed you? 2 A. Sarah. 3 Q. How did Sarah come to photograph you? 4 A. She had called me and asked -- well, she had said Mr. -- she called and said she was calling in regards to Mr. Epstein; and that I would get paid five to $600 if she could take pictures of me. 8 Q. How did you respond? 9 A. I said okay. 10 Q. Where were those pictures taken? 11 A. In the Palm Beach house. 12 Q. What were you wearing in those pictures? 13 A. Nothing. 14 Q. Who took those pictures? 15 A. Sarah Kellen. 16 Q. Do you remember anyone else being around at that time? 17 A. No. It was just me and her that I was aware of. 18 Q. During the massage appointments, after you set up the massage table and got undressed, who would come inside the room? 21 A. Mr. Epstein. 22 Q. After Mr. Epstein came in the room, for the first approximately 45 minutes in the room, what would you do? 24 A. Massage him. 25 Q. How would he be lying down? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013126 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 113 of 264 1539 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Who photographed you? 2 A. Sarah. 3 Q. How did Sarah come to photograph you? 4 A. She had called me and asked -- well, she had said Mr. -- she called and said she was calling in regards to Mr. Epstein; and that I would get paid five to $600 if she could take pictures of me. 5 Q. How did you respond? 6 A. I said okay. 7 Q. Where were those pictures taken? 8 A. In the Palm Beach house. 9 Q. What were you wearing in those pictures? 10 A. Nothing. 11 Q. Who took those pictures? 12 A. Sarah Kellen. 13 Q. Do you remember anyone else being around at that time? 14 A. No. It was just me and her that I was aware of. 15 Q. During the massage appointments, after you set up the massage table and got undressed, who would come inside the room? 16 A. Mr. Epstein. 17 Q. After Mr. Epstein came in the room, for the first approximately 45 minutes in the room, what would you do? 18 A. Massage him. 19 Q. How would he be lying down? 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018711 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 114 of 264 1540 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Face down. 2 Q. While you were massaging Mr. Epstein, what, if any, conversations did you have? 3 A. About my life, my upbringing. 4 Q. What did you tell him about your family, if anything? 5 A. That it was kind of screwed up; that my mom was an alcoholic and an addict. 6 Q. And what did you tell him about sexual abuse you had experienced in the past? 7 A. I had told him that I had been molested and raped. 8 Q. And what, if any, conversations did you have with him about travel? 9 A. He had also asked me a couple of times if I can travel. 10 And I told him there is no way that my mom's going to let me because I was too young. 11 Q. In those conversations, did you tell Jeffrey Epstein how old you were? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What did you say? 14 A. I told him that I was only 15 and I couldn't leave. 15 Q. After each massage, what were you paid? 16 A. Three to $400. 17 Q. Usually where would the money be after each massage? 18 A. On the sink. 19 Q. Did anyone ever hand you money? 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013127 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 114 of 264 1540 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Face down. 2 Q. While you were massaging Mr. Epstein, what, if any, conversations did you have? 3 A. About my life, my upbringing. 4 Q. What did you tell him about your family, if anything? 5 A. That it was kind of screwed up; that my mom was an alcoholic and an addict. 6 Q. And what did you tell him about sexual abuse you had experienced in the past? 7 A. I had told him that I had been molested and raped. 8 Q. And what, if any, conversations did you have with him about travel? 9 A. He had also asked me a couple of times if I can travel. 10 And I told him there is no way that my mom's going to let me because I was too young. 11 Q. In those conversations, did you tell Jeffrey Epstein how old you were? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. What did you say? 14 A. I told him that I was only 15 and I couldn't leave. 15 Q. After each massage, what were you paid? 16 A. Three to $400. 17 Q. Usually where would the money be after each massage? 18 A. On the sink. 19 Q. Did anyone ever hand you money? 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018712 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 115 of 264 1541 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Once or twice Ms. Maxwell did. 2 Q. About how much money do you remember Ms. Maxwell handing you after you engaged in a sexualized massage with Jeffrey Epstein? 3 4 A. $300. 5 6 Q. What denominations were the bills? 7 A. Hundreds. 8 Q. Other than money, what gifts, if any, did you receive from Jeffrey Epstein? 9 10 A. I received lingerie. 11 Q. How did you get that lingerie? 12 A. Through FedEx. 13 Q. Where did you receive a FedEx package? 14 A. At my home. 15 Q. In what town was your home? 16 A. West Palm Beach. 17 Q. Is that the home where you lived with your mom and your younger brothers? 18 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did you notice the return address from those packages? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What was it? 23 A. Manhattan, New York. 24 Q. Any reason that stands out in your mind? 25 A. Yeah. Because I was born in New York, so -- and also I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013128 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 115 of 264 1541 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Once or twice Ms. Maxwell did. 2 Q. About how much money do you remember Ms. Maxwell handing you after you engaged in a sexualized massage with Jeffrey Epstein? 3 A. $300. 4 Q. What denominations were the bills? 5 A. Hundreds. 6 Q. Other than money, what gifts, if any, did you receive from Jeffrey Epstein? 7 A. I received lingerie. 8 Q. How did you get that lingerie? 9 A. Through FedEx. 10 Q. Where did you receive a FedEx package? 11 A. At my home. 12 Q. In what town was your home? 13 A. West Palm Beach. 14 Q. Is that the home where you lived with your mom and your younger brothers? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you notice the return address from those packages? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What was it? 19 A. Manhattan, New York. 20 Q. Any reason that stands out in your mind? 21 A. Yeah. Because I was born in New York, so -- and also I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018713 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 116 of 264 1542 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct knew that he had a home here in New York. Q. What was inside those packages? A. Lingerie from Victoria's Secrets. Q. How did Mr. Epstein get your address as far as you know? A. I had given -- MR. PAGLIUCA: Objection, your Honor. Lack of foundation. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. Did you give your address to anyone? A. Yes. Q. Who? A. Maxwell. Q. Why did you give your address to Maxwell? A. Because Jeffrey Epstein wanted to send me some items. I wasn't sure what the items were going to be. Q. And so did she ask for your address? A. Yes. Q. And did you give her your address? A. Yes. Q. Other than the lingerie, did you receive any other gifts? A. Yes. A massage book for dummies, because I wanted to be a massage therapist; and concert tickets to Incubus. Q. Other than Virginia, were there ever any other females in the room with you when you were massaging Jeffrey Epstein? A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013129 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 116 of 264 1542 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct knew that he had a home here in New York. Q. What was inside those packages? A. Lingerie from Victoria's Secrets. Q. How did Mr. Epstein get your address as far as you know? A. I had given -- MR. PAGLIUCA: Objection, your Honor. Lack of foundation. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. Did you give your address to anyone? A. Yes. Q. Who? A. Maxwell. Q. Why did you give your address to Maxwell? A. Because Jeffrey Epstein wanted to send me some items. I wasn't sure what the items were going to be. Q. And so did she ask for your address? A. Yes. Q. And did you give her your address? A. Yes. Q. Other than the lingerie, did you receive any other gifts? A. Yes. A massage book for dummies, because I wanted to be a massage therapist; and concert tickets to Incubus. Q. Other than Virginia, were there ever any other females in the room with you when you were massaging Jeffrey Epstein? A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018714 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 117 of 264 1543 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. How did those other females end up in the room? 2 A. They came in the room. 3 Q. With who? 4 A. Themselves. 5 Q. Did you ever bring friends to Jeffrey's house? 6 You have to say the answer. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. About how many friends did you bring to Jeffrey Epstein's house? 9 10 A. Two or three. 11 Q. What are the names of some of the friends you remember bringing? First names. 12 13 A. Amanda Lazlo, Tatum, and Julie Morgan. 14 (Continued on next page) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013130 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 117 of 264 1543 LC7VMAX3 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. How did those other females end up in the room? 2 A. They came in the room. 3 Q. With who? 4 A. Themselves. 5 Q. Did you ever bring friends to Jeffrey's house? 6 You have to say the answer. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. About how many friends did you bring to Jeffrey Epstein's house? 9 10 A. Two or three. 11 Q. What are the names of some of the friends you remember bringing? First names. 12 13 A. Amanda Lazlo, Tatum, and Julie Morgan. 14 (Continued on next page) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018715 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 118 of 264 1544 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct BY MS. COMEY: Q. About how old were they when you brought them over? A. Amanda was one year older than me, Tatum was the same age as me, and so was Julie. Q. How old were you when you brought Amanda? A. I believe I was 15 or 16. Q. And so how old was Amanda? A. She was a year older than me. So I believe she was going to be 17. Q. And how old were you when you brought Tatum? A. When we were 15, going to be 16. Q. And how old were you when you brought Julie? A. 16. Q. Why did you bring friends to Jeffrey Epstein's house? A. He asked me if I had any friends that were my age or younger, and I told him I didn't hang out with younger people, but I do have some friends I can ask. Q. Do you remember anyone else asking you to bring friends? A. No. Q. When you brought your friends over to Jeffrey's house, where did you enter the house with them? A. Through the kitchen area. Q. Where did you go next? A. Up the stairs into the massage room. Q. And after the massage ended, what were you and the friend SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013131 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 118 of 264 1544 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct BY MS. COMEY: Q. About how old were they when you brought them over? A. Amanda was one year older than me, Tatum was the same age as me, and so was Julie. Q. How old were you when you brought Amanda? A. I believe I was 15 or 16. Q. And so how old was Amanda? A. She was a year older than me. So I believe she was going to be 17. Q. And how old were you when you brought Tatum? A. When we were 15, going to be 16. Q. And how old were you when you brought Julie? A. 16. Q. Why did you bring friends to Jeffrey Epstein's house? A. He asked me if I had any friends that were my age or younger, and I told him I didn't hang out with younger people, but I do have some friends I can ask. Q. Do you remember anyone else asking you to bring friends? A. No. Q. When you brought your friends over to Jeffrey's house, where did you enter the house with them? A. Through the kitchen area. Q. Where did you go next? A. Up the stairs into the massage room. Q. And after the massage ended, what were you and the friend SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018716 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 119 of 264 1545 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct paid? 1 A. I was paid $600 and my friend was paid $300. 2 Q. In what denominations? 3 A. Hundreds. 4 Q. Why did you get extra? 5 A. Because I brought her, a friend with me. 6 Q. About how long did each massage with Jeffrey Epstein last? 7 A. 45 minutes. 8 Q. After that first 45 minutes, what happened each time? 9 A. He would turn over and start masturbating until he ejaculated. 10 Q. During how many of the massages you gave Jeffrey Epstein did he masturbate? 11 A. Every single time. 12 Q. During how many of the massages you gave Jeffrey Epstein did he touch your breasts? 13 A. Every time. 14 Q. During how many of the massages you gave Jeffrey Epstein did he touch your buttocks? 15 A. Every time. 16 Q. Where else, if anywhere, did Jeffrey Epstein touch you during these massages? 17 A. He tried one time to use like a vibrating thing on me, and I immediately told him I'm not comfortable with that. 18 Q. And did he stop? 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013132 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 119 of 264 1545 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 paid? 2 A. I was paid $600 and my friend was paid $300. 3 Q. In what denominations? 4 A. Hundreds. 5 Q. Why did you get extra? 6 A. Because I brought her, a friend with me. 7 Q. About how long did each massage with Jeffrey Epstein last? 8 A. 45 minutes. 9 Q. After that first 45 minutes, what happened each time? 10 A. He would turn over and start masturbating until he ejaculated. 11 12 Q. During how many of the massages you gave Jeffrey Epstein did he masturbate? 13 A. Every single time. 14 15 Q. During how many of the massages you gave Jeffrey Epstein did he touch your breasts? 16 A. Every time. 17 18 Q. During how many of the massages you gave Jeffrey Epstein did he touch your buttocks? 19 A. Every time. 20 21 Q. Where else, if anywhere, did Jeffrey Epstein touch you during these massages? 22 23 A. He tried one time to use like a vibrating thing on me, and I immediately told him I'm not comfortable with that. 24 25 Q. And did he stop? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018717 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 120 of 264 1546 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Can you describe the vibrating thing that he tried to put on your vagina? 3 A. It looked like what now I know -- it looked like -- 4 A. Like a penis? 5 Q. Yes. Sorry. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did he actually touch that vibrator onto your vagina? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. How did every massage you ever gave Jeffrey Epstein end? 10 A. With him masturbating until he ejaculated. 11 Q. Were there ever massages you provided Jeffrey Epstein where nothing sexual happened? 12 A. No. Something sexual happened every single time. 13 Q. During the massages when you brought friends, did sex acts happen? 14 A. The same thing, he would turn over and masturbate. 15 Q. And where, if anywhere, did Jeffrey Epstein touch you and your friends during those massages? 16 A. On our breasts and butt. 17 Q. Did Jeffrey ever bring anyone into the room? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Who did he bring into the room? 20 A. On two separate occasions, he had pushed the button on the phone and a girl came in that was already fully nude. 21 Q. How many times did that happen? 22 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013133 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 120 of 264 1546 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Can you describe the vibrating thing that he tried to put on your vagina? 3 A. It looked like what now I know -- it looked like -- 4 A. Like a penis? 5 Q. Yes. Sorry. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did he actually touch that vibrator onto your vagina? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. How did every massage you ever gave Jeffrey Epstein end? 10 A. With him masturbating until he ejaculated. 11 Q. Were there ever massages you provided Jeffrey Epstein where nothing sexual happened? 12 A. No. Something sexual happened every single time. 13 Q. During the massages when you brought friends, did sex acts happen? 14 A. The same thing, he would turn over and masturbate. 15 Q. And where, if anywhere, did Jeffrey Epstein touch you and your friends during those massages? 16 A. On our breasts and butt. 17 Q. Did Jeffrey ever bring anyone into the room? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Who did he bring into the room? 20 A. On two separate occasions, he had pushed the button on the phone and a girl came in that was already fully nude. 21 Q. How many times did that happen? 22 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018718 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 121 of 264 1547 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Twice. 2 Q. I want to talk about those times. Had you ever met them before? 3 4 A. No. 5 Q. Do you know their names? 6 A. I have no idea. 7 Q. Let's talk about the first one. What did she look like? 8 A. She was slender and she had blond -- long blond hair and she had a really strong accent. 9 10 Q. What happened when this first female came into the massage room with you and Jeffrey Epstein? 11 12 A. Jeffrey was having sex with her while she performed oral sex on me. 13 14 Q. And turning to the second female, what did she look like? 15 A. She had darker brown hair. 16 Q. And what happened when she came into the room with you and Jeffrey Epstein? 17 18 A. She came in nude and Jeffrey penetrated me a couple times and I told him I wasn't comfortable. So he had sex with the model and she performed oral sex on me. 19 20 21 Q. Just to be clear, did Jeffrey Epstein penetrate your vagina with his penis? 22 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And then when you said you weren't comfortable, did he stop? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013134 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 121 of 264 1547 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Twice. 2 Q. I want to talk about those times. Had you ever met them before? 3 4 A. No. 5 Q. Do you know their names? 6 A. I have no idea. 7 Q. Let's talk about the first one. What did she look like? 8 A. She was slender and she had blond -- long blond hair and she had a really strong accent. 9 10 Q. What happened when this first female came into the massage room with you and Jeffrey Epstein? 11 12 A. Jeffrey was having sex with her while she performed oral sex on me. 13 14 Q. And turning to the second female, what did she look like? 15 A. She had darker brown hair. 16 Q. And what happened when she came into the room with you and Jeffrey Epstein? 17 18 A. She came in nude and Jeffrey penetrated me a couple times and I told him I wasn't comfortable. So he had sex with the model and she performed oral sex on me. 19 20 21 Q. Just to be clear, did Jeffrey Epstein penetrate your vagina with his penis? 22 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And then when you said you weren't comfortable, did he stop? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018719 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 122 of 264 1548 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What were you doing with the money that you made going to Jeffrey Epstein's house? 3 4 A. Buying drugs. 5 Q. Was there ever a time, Carolyn, when you took a break from going over to Jeffrey Enstein's house? 6 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. About when was that? 9 A. When me and Sean ran away from Florida, we stole my mom's 10 car and went to Georgia. 11 Q. Do you remember how old you were when you and Sean went to Georgia? 12 13 A. I was 16. I was 16, going to be 17. 14 Q. While you took that break from going over to Jeffrey Epstein's house, what major life event, if any, happened? 15 16 A. I got pregnant. 17 Q. Did you have a baby? 18 A. I did. 19 Q. What month and year did you have a baby? 20 A. March 12th, 2004. 21 Q. What is the father of your son's first name, just his first 22 name? 23 A. Sean. 24 Q. After you had your son, your baby, did you ever go back to 25 Jeffrey Epstein's house? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013135 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 122 of 264 1548 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What were you doing with the money that you made going to Jeffrey Epstein's house? 3 4 A. Buying drugs. 5 Q. Was there ever a time, Carolyn, when you took a break from going over to Jeffrey Enstein's house? 6 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. About when was that? 9 A. When me and Sean ran away from Florida, we stole my mom's 10 car and went to Georgia. 11 Q. Do you remember how old you were when you and Sean went to Georgia? 12 13 A. I was 16. I was 16, going to be 17. 14 Q. While you took that break from going over to Jeffrey Epstein's house, what major life event, if any, happened? 15 16 A. I got pregnant. 17 Q. Did you have a baby? 18 A. I did. 19 Q. What month and year did you have a baby? 20 A. March 12th, 2004. 21 Q. What is the father of your son's first name, just his first 22 name? 23 A. Sean. 24 Q. After you had your son, your baby, did you ever go back to 25 Jeffrey Epstein's house? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018720 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 123 of 264 1549 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Yes, I did. 2 Q. About how many times? 3 A. Well, I had gone there while I was pregnant -- 4 Q. I'm asking about after you had the baby. 5 A. Okay. I had gone back there more than, like, four or five times, and he asked me if I had any younger friends and I said no. And that's when I realized I was too old. 8 Q. Why did you go back after you had your baby? 9 A. Because I needed the money because I was so young when I had my son and I needed the money to buy stuff for him. 11 Q. Why did you stop going to Jeffrey Epstein's house? 12 A. Because I became too old. 13 Q. How old were you? 14 A. 18. 15 MS. COMEY: May I have a moment, your Honor? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 Q. Carolyn? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. After you stopped seeing Jeffrey Epstein, did you continue using drugs? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What drugs did you use? 23 A. Cocaine and pain pills. 24 Q. Were you addicted to both of those drugs? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013136 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 123 of 264 1549 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Yes, I did. 2 Q. About how many times? 3 A. Well, I had gone there while I was pregnant -- 4 Q. I'm asking about after you had the baby. 5 A. Okay. I had gone back there more than, like, four or five times, and he asked me if I had any younger friends and I said no. And that's when I realized I was too old. 6 7 8 Q. Why did you go back after you had your baby? 9 A. Because I needed the money because I was so young when I had my son and I needed the money to buy stuff for him. 10 11 Q. Why did you stop going to Jeffrey Epstein's house? 12 A. Because I became too old. 13 Q. How old were you? 14 A. 18. 15 MS. COMEY: May I have a moment, your Honor? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 Q. Carolyn? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. After you stopped seeing Jeffrey Epstein, did you continue using drugs? 20 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What drugs did you use? 23 A. Cocaine and pain pills. 24 Q. Were you addicted to both of those drugs? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018721 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 124 of 264 1550 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Have you ever been arrested as a result of your drug use? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. In 2011, were you arrested for possessing cocaine? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What happened that led to you getting arrested? 6 A. I handed the officer the drugs. 7 Q. Why did you do that? 8 A. Because I'm an idiot. I handed him the drugs because I was hoping I wouldn't get arrested. 9 10 Q. Had you been pulled over in a car? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you ultimately plead guilty to felony possession of cocaine as a result? 13 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What was your sentence? 16 A. I was on SOR. 17 Q. What's that? 18 A. Supervised own recognizance. 19 Q. In 2013, were you arrested for possessing stolen property? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What happened that led to that arrest? 22 A. Sean told me it was our son's Xbox. 23 MR. PAGLIUCA: Objection. Hearsay. 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25 Q. Did you pawn an Xbox? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013137 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 124 of 264 1550 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Have you ever been arrested as a result of your drug use? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. In 2011, were you arrested for possessing cocaine? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What happened that led to you getting arrested? 6 A. I handed the officer the drugs. 7 Q. Why did you do that? 8 A. Because I'm an idiot. I handed him the drugs because I was hoping I wouldn't get arrested. 9 10 Q. Had you been pulled over in a car? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you ultimately plead guilty to felony possession of cocaine as a result? 13 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What was your sentence? 16 A. I was on SOR. 17 Q. What's that? 18 A. Supervised own recognizance. 19 Q. In 2013, were you arrested for possessing stolen property? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What happened that led to that arrest? 22 A. Sean told me it was our son's Xbox. 23 MR. PAGLIUCA: Objection. Hearsay. 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25 Q. Did you pawn an Xbox? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018722 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 125 of 264 1551 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Yes, I did. 2 A. Was it your Xbox? 3 Q. No. 4 A. Did you tell the pawnbroker it was your Xbox? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. Did you ultimately plead guilty to felony possession of stolen property as a result? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. And did you plead guilty to felony false verification of ownership to a pawnbroker? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. What was your sentence? 11 Q. I spent 52 days in jail. 12 A. After serving that sentence, did you go to drug treatment? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. And after serving that sentence, did you go to therapy? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. What medications do you currently take? 17 Q. I take methadone and Xanax and doxepine and Vyvanse. 18 A. What is methadone for? 19 Q. It's an opioid blocker so I can't take any pain pills without being really sick. 20 A. So is that to help you with your opioid addiction? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. What's the Xanax for? 23 Q. 24 A. 25 Q. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013138 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 125 of 264 1551 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Yes, I did. 2 A. Was it your Xbox? 3 Q. No. 4 A. Did you tell the pawnbroker it was your Xbox? 5 Q. Yes. 6 A. Did you ultimately plead guilty to felony possession of stolen property as a result? 7 Q. Yes. 8 A. And did you plead guilty to felony false verification of ownership to a pawnbroker? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. What was your sentence? 11 Q. I spent 52 days in jail. 12 A. After serving that sentence, did you go to drug treatment? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. And after serving that sentence, did you go to therapy? 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. What medications do you currently take? 17 Q. I take methadone and Xanax and doxepine and Vyvanse. 18 A. What is methadone for? 19 Q. It's an opioid blocker so I can't take any pain pills without being really sick. 20 A. So is that to help you with your opioid addiction? 21 Q. Yes. 22 A. What's the Xanax for? 23 Q. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018723 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 126 of 264 1552 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 A. For all the anxiety I have of thinking my daughters are going to be trafficked or stolen or kidnapped from me. 2 Q. And you mentioned two other types of medication. What were those for? 3 A. My Vyvanse is to stay focused and my doxepine is for the schizophrenia so I don't freak out if I -- because I am scared that my kids are going to get kidnapped. 4 Q. But you mentioned schizophrenia. Do you have particular symptoms? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What symptoms? 7 A. I feel like people are out to get my children and traffic them. 8 Q. And do you hear voices telling you that someone's going to take your children away? 9 A. Sometimes. 10 Q. Can you tell the difference between those voices and reality? 11 A. Absolutely. 12 Q. How is that? 13 A. Because I know that they're right there with me and I would never let that happen. 14 Q. Do any of those medications affect your ability to remember what has happened to you? 15 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013139 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 126 of 264 1552 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 A. For all the anxiety I have of thinking my daughters are going to be trafficked or stolen or kidnapped from me. 2 Q. And you mentioned two other types of medication. What were those for? 3 A. My Vyvanse is to stay focused and my doxepine is for the schizophrenia so I don't freak out if I -- because I am scared that my kids are going to get kidnapped. 4 Q. But you mentioned schizophrenia. Do you have particular symptoms? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What symptoms? 7 A. I feel like people are out to get my children and traffic them. 8 Q. And do you hear voices telling you that someone's going to take your children away? 9 A. Sometimes. 10 Q. Can you tell the difference between those voices and reality? 11 A. Absolutely. 12 Q. How is that? 13 A. Because I know that they're right there with me and I would never let that happen. 14 Q. Do any of those medications affect your ability to remember what has happened to you? 15 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018724 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 127 of 264 1553 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Do any of them affect your ability to tell the difference between the truth and a lie? 2 A. No. 3 Q. About how often do you speak to Sean now? 4 A. Never. 5 Q. When did you break up? 6 A. After the pawnshop thing. 7 Q. Since breaking up with Sean, have you had any conversations with him about what happened with Jeffrey Epstein? 8 A. Nope. 9 Q. Have you had any conversations with Sean about your testimony here today? 10 A. Absolutely not. 11 Q. In 2007, were you interviewed by the FBI about Jeffrey Epstein? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. During that interview, did you tell the FBI that you noticed an older lady with short black hair and an accent at Epstein's residence the first time you went there with Virginia? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Who was that? 16 A. Maxwell. 17 Q. During your interview with the FBI in 2007, did you mention the other details of your interactions with Maxwell? 18 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013140 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 127 of 264 1553 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Do any of them affect your ability to tell the difference between the truth and a lie? 2 A. No. 3 Q. About how often do you speak to Sean now? 4 A. Never. 5 Q. When did you break up? 6 A. After the pawnshop thing. 7 Q. Since breaking up with Sean, have you had any conversations with him about what happened with Jeffrey Epstein? 8 A. Nope. 9 Q. Have you had any conversations with Sean about your testimony here today? 10 A. Absolutely not. 11 Q. In 2007, were you interviewed by the FBI about Jeffrey Epstein? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. During that interview, did you tell the FBI that you noticed an older lady with short black hair and an accent at Epstein's residence the first time you went there with Virginia? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Who was that? 16 A. Maxwell. 17 Q. During your interview with the FBI in 2007, did you mention the other details of your interactions with Maxwell? 18 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 19 DOJ-OGR-00018725 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 128 of 264 1554 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 A. No. 2 Q. Why not? 3 A. I wasn't asked about Maxwell. 4 Q. Who was the focus of that interview? 5 A. Jeffrey Epstein. 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: Objection, your Honor. Speculation. 7 THE COURT: Sustained. 8 Q. Who did the FBI ask you questions about in 2007? 9 A. Jeffrey Epstein. 10 Q. After you stopped seeing Jeffrey Epstein when you were about 18 years old, how did you make money? 11 A. I worked for an escort service and was a stripper. 12 Q. When you worked for the escort service, did you have sex with men for money? 13 A. Sometimes. 14 Q. In or about 2009, did you bring a lawsuit against Jeffrey Epstein and Sarah Kellen? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Why did you sue Jeffrey Epstein? 17 A. Because of all the damage, emotional damage he did to me. 18 Q. Why did you sue Sarah? 19 A. Because she knew what was going on and she was -- she was older than me, so she was an adult. She knew what was happening. 20 Q. And what else did she do? 21 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013141 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 128 of 264 1554 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 A. No. 2 Q. Why not? 3 A. I wasn't asked about Maxwell. 4 Q. Who was the focus of that interview? 5 A. Jeffrey Epstein. 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: Objection, your Honor. Speculation. 7 THE COURT: Sustained. 8 Q. Who did the FBI ask you questions about in 2007? 9 A. Jeffrey Epstein. 10 Q. After you stopped seeing Jeffrey Epstein when you were about 18 years old, how did you make money? 11 A. I worked for an escort service and was a stripper. 12 Q. When you worked for the escort service, did you have sex with men for money? 13 A. Sometimes. 14 Q. In or about 2009, did you bring a lawsuit against Jeffrey Epstein and Sarah Kellen? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Why did you sue Jeffrey Epstein? 17 A. Because of all the damage, emotional damage he did to me. 18 Q. Why did you sue Sarah? 19 A. Because she knew what was going on and she was -- she was older than me, so she was an adult. She knew what was happening. 20 Q. And what else did she do? 21 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018726 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 129 of 264 1555 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Took pictures of me while I was nude. 2 Q. Without getting into the substance of any conversations, who made the decision about who to sue in that lawsuit? 3 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: Objection, your Honor. 602 without any further foundation. 5 6 THE COURT: Sustained. 7 Q. Carolyn, did you hire a lawyer in order to bring this lawsuit? 8 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Without telling me the substance, did you have conversations with that lawyer about who to sue? 11 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And ultimately, after those conversations, based on your understanding, who decided who would be sued in this lawsuit? 14 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: Objection, your Honor. Lack of foundation. 16 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 THE WITNESS: Am I -- 19 THE COURT: I sustained. It means don't answer. Jury will disregard. 20 21 Q. In 2009, were you deposed as a part of that lawsuit? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. During that deposition, were you asked about your time working for the escort service? 24 25 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 129 of 264 1555 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 A. Took pictures of me while I was nude. 2 Q. Without getting into the substance of any conversations, 3 who made the decision about who to sue in that lawsuit? 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: Objection, your Honor. 602 without any 5 further foundation. 6 THE COURT: Sustained. 7 Q. Carolyn, did you hire a lawyer in order to bring this 8 lawsuit? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Without telling me the substance, did you have 11 conversations with that lawyer about who to sue? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And ultimately, after those conversations, based on your 14 understanding, who decided who would be sued in this lawsuit? 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: Objection, your Honor. Lack of 16 foundation. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 THE WITNESS: Am I -- 19 THE COURT: I sustained. It means don't answer. Jury 20 will disregard. 21 Q. In 2009, were you deposed as a part of that lawsuit? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. During that deposition, were you asked about your time 24 working for the escort service? 25 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018727 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 130 of 264 1556 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Did you lie during your deposition, Carolyn? 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. What did you lie about? 4 A. Being an escort and a stripper. 5 Q. What did you say during the deposition? 6 A. I didn't say anything about that. 7 Q. Did you say that you worked for the escort service but didn't sleep with anyone? 8 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Was that true? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Why did you lie about that? 13 A. I was embarrassed. 14 MS. COMEY: May I have a moment, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 17 Ms. Drescher, could we please pull up, just for the Court and the witness, 3505-403 at page 1. 18 19 BY MS. COMEY: 20 Q. Carolyn, what was the date of your deposition in the lawsuit? 21 22 A. December 4th, 2009. 23 MS. COMEY: Can we now please turn in this document, 24 Ms. Drescher, to page 36. I want to go to deposition page 137, 25 lines 3 through 6. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013143 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 130 of 264 1556 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 Q. Did you lie during your deposition, Carolyn? 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. What did you lie about? 4 A. Being an escort and a stripper. 5 Q. What did you say during the deposition? 6 A. I didn't say anything about that. 7 Q. Did you say that you worked for the escort service but didn't sleep with anyone? 8 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Was that true? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Why did you lie about that? 13 A. I was embarrassed. 14 MS. COMEY: May I have a moment, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 17 Ms. Drescher, could we please pull up, just for the Court and the witness, 3505-403 at page 1. 18 19 BY MS. COMEY: 20 Q. Carolyn, what was the date of your deposition in the lawsuit? 21 22 A. December 4th, 2009. 23 MS. COMEY: Can we now please turn in this document, 24 Ms. Drescher, to page 36. I want to go to deposition page 137, 25 lines 3 through 6. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018728 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 131 of 264 1557 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 Your Honor, I would like to offer this and read it into the record pursuant to 801(d)(1)(B). 2 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: Lines 3 through 6? 4 MS. COMEY: Yes, your Honor. 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: I don't understand what this is being 6 offered for, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: You'll confer. 8 MS. COMEY: We've conferred, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Pagliuca, do you have an 10 objection? 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, your Honor -- 12 THE COURT: Just objection or no. 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. Can we approach? 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 (Continued on next page) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013144 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 131 of 264 1557 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 Your Honor, I would like to offer this and read it into the record pursuant to 801(d)(1)(B). 2 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: Lines 3 through 6? 4 MS. COMEY: Yes, your Honor. 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: I don't understand what this is being 6 offered for, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: You'll confer. 8 MS. COMEY: We've conferred, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Pagliuca, do you have an 10 objection? 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, your Honor -- 12 THE COURT: Just objection or no. 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. Can we approach? 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 (Continued on next page) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018729 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 132 of 264 1558 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 (At the sidebar) 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: This is apparently being offered as purported prior consistent statement? 3 THE COURT: Right. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: The problem is, when read in context, which really starts at line 20 on the page above and goes through probably line 16 on the next page, we're simply just parsing out two lines. 8 THE COURT: She can read the whole thing. 9 MS. COMEY: That's fine, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Okay? 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. 12 MS. COMEY: Starting at which line? 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'd say 136, line 23. 14 MS. COMEY: That's an answer. 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: So the question is going to be line 20. 16 MS. COMEY: Line 20 through line 6. 17 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. 18 (Continued on next page) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013145 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 132 of 264 1558 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 (At the sidebar) 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: This is apparently being offered as purported prior consistent statement? 3 THE COURT: Right. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: The problem is, when read in context, which really starts at line 20 on the page above and goes through probably line 16 on the next page, we're simply just parsing out two lines. 5 6 THE COURT: She can read the whole thing. 7 MS. COMEY: That's fine, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Okay? 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. 10 MS. COMEY: Starting at which line? 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'd say 136, line 23. 12 MS. COMEY: That's an answer. 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: So the question is going to be line 20. 14 MS. COMEY: Line 20 through line 6. 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. 16 (Continued on next page) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018730 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 133 of 264 1559 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Okay, Ms. Comey. 3 MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, I would like to pull up the page just a little earlier, page 136, line 20, and we're going to go through page 137, line 6. 4 BY MS. COMEY: 5 Q. Carolyn, do you see that in front of you? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. My question is, were you asked the following questions and did you give the following answers. I'm going to read this aloud. Just listen and read along with me. 8 "Q. You would agree with me that you cannot recall the specifics of each visit that you had at Mr. Epstein's home? 9 A. I don't remember the times and dates, but I can tell you everything that happened while I was there. 10 "Q. In your complaint in each count, you allege that you went to Mr. Epstein's at his request? 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 "Q. In fact, Mr. Epstein himself did not contact you on each occasion and request you to come, did he? 13 A. No, he would have Sarah or Maxwell call me." 14 Did you give that testimony in December 2009, Carolyn? 15 A. Yes. 16 MS. COMEY: I'd like to go now, please, to page 33 of the same document. 17 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 18 DOJ-OGR-00013146 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 133 of 264 1559 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Okay, Ms. Comey. 3 MS. COMEY: Ms. Drescher, I would like to pull up the page just a little earlier, page 136, line 20, and we're going to go through page 137, line 6. 4 BY MS. COMEY: 5 Q. Carolyn, do you see that in front of you? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. My question is, were you asked the following questions and did you give the following answers. I'm going to read this aloud. Just listen and read along with me. 8 "Q. You would agree with me that you cannot recall the specifics of each visit that you had at Mr. Epstein's home? 9 "A. I don't remember the times and dates, but I can tell you everything that happened while I was there. 10 "Q. In your complaint in each count, you allege that you went to Mr. Epstein's at his request? 11 "A. Uh-huh. 12 "Q. In fact, Mr. Epstein himself did not contact you on each occasion and request you to come, did he? 13 "A. No, he would have Sarah or Maxwell call me." 14 Did you give that testimony in December 2009, Carolyn? 15 A. Yes. 16 MS. COMEY: I'd like to go now, please, to page 33 of the same document. 17 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 18 (212) 805-0300 19 DOJ-OGR-00018731 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 134 of 264 1560 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 THE COURT: Page and line numbers, please. 2 MS. COMEY: We'll be doing deposition page 124, lines 3 8 through 20. 4 THE COURT: Just a moment. Mr. Pagliuca. 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: That's fine, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 7 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 8 BY MS. COMEY: 9 Q. Starting with line 8 on page 124: 10 "Q. And for what reason were you placing calls to try to get 11 Mr. Epstein? 12 "A. To go over there to see him. 13 "Q. Were you seeking the opportunity to go over and massage 14 him and get paid? 15 "A. Yes. 16 "Q. And on these occasions that you called to see if you could 17 go over there and give him a massage, did you talk to him or 18 did you talk to others at his house? 19 "A. I talked to Sarah or Maxwell. I have also talked to -- I 20 don't know if it's the cook or somebody else that was there 21 that took phone messages." 22 Carolyn, did you give that testimony in December 2009? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Other than those two exchanges we just talked about, were 25 you asked any other questions about Maxwell during your 2009 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013147 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 134 of 264 1560 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct 1 THE COURT: Page and line numbers, please. 2 MS. COMEY: We'll be doing deposition page 124, lines 3 8 through 20. 4 THE COURT: Just a moment. Mr. Pagliuca. 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: That's fine, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 7 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 8 BY MS. COMEY: 9 Q. Starting with line 8 on page 124: 10 "Q. And for what reason were you placing calls to try to get 11 Mr. Epstein? 12 "A. To go over there to see him. 13 "Q. Were you seeking the opportunity to go over and massage 14 him and get paid? 15 "A. Yes. 16 "Q. And on these occasions that you called to see if you could 17 go over there and give him a massage, did you talk to him or 18 did you talk to others at his house? 19 "A. I talked to Sarah or Maxwell. I have also talked to -- I 20 don't know if it's the cook or somebody else that was there 21 that took phone messages." 22 Carolyn, did you give that testimony in December 2009? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Other than those two exchanges we just talked about, were 25 you asked any other questions about Maxwell during your 2009 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018732 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 135 of 264 1561 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct deposition? 1 Q. 2 A. No. 3 Q. How did your lawsuit against Jeffrey and Sarah end in 2009? 4 A. I received money. 5 Q. Did you settle the case? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you remember how much money you received? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Can you approximate for us? 10 A. Like $250,000. 11 Q. Have you participated in a victim compensation fund for victims of Jeffrey Epstein? 12 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What did you do to submit a claim to that fund for the fund? 15 16 A. I -- I don't understand the question. 17 Q. Did you put in an application to the fund? 18 A. My attorneys did. 19 Q. Did you receive an award from the fund? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you know exactly how much the fund awarded you? 22 A. No. 23 Q. About how much do you remember it being? 24 A. Somewhere between $1 million and $3 million. 25 Q. Did that money come from the estate of Jeffrey Epstein? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013148 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 135 of 264 1561 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - direct deposition? 1 Q. 2 A. No. 3 Q. How did your lawsuit against Jeffrey and Sarah end in 2009? 4 A. I received money. 5 Q. Did you settle the case? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you remember how much money you received? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Can you approximate for us? 10 A. Like $250,000. 11 Q. Have you participated in a victim compensation fund for victims of Jeffrey Epstein? 12 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What did you do to submit a claim to that fund for the fund? 15 16 A. I -- I don't understand the question. 17 Q. Did you put in an application to the fund? 18 A. My attorneys did. 19 Q. Did you receive an award from the fund? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you know exactly how much the fund awarded you? 22 A. No. 23 Q. About how much do you remember it being? 24 A. Somewhere between $1 million and $3 million. 25 Q. Did that money come from the estate of Jeffrey Epstein? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018733 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 136 of 264 1562 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Has that money already been wired to you? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Are you waiting on any other money from the fund? 5 A. No. 6 Q. As part of receiving that money, did you have to sign a waiver agreeing not to sue any of Jeffrey Epstein's employees? 7 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. To your understanding, can you sue Maxwell? 10 A. No. 11 Q. To your understanding, will the jury's verdict in this case affect the award you received from that fund? 12 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you have any financial stake in the outcome of this case? 15 16 A. No. 17 MS. COMEY: May I have a moment, your Honor? 18 THE COURT: You may. 19 MS. COMEY: Nothing further. 20 THE COURT: We have about 15 minutes before lunch. 21 Mr. Pagliuca, you may begin your cross. 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Thank you. 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION 25 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013149 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 136 of 264 1562 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Has that money already been wired to you? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Are you waiting on any other money from the fund? 5 A. No. 6 Q. As part of receiving that money, did you have to sign a waiver agreeing not to sue any of Jeffrey Epstein's employees? 7 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. To your understanding, can you sue Maxwell? 10 A. No. 11 Q. To your understanding, will the jury's verdict in this case affect the award you received from that fund? 12 13 A. No. 14 Q. Do you have any financial stake in the outcome of this case? 15 16 A. No. 17 MS. COMEY: May I have a moment, your Honor? 18 THE COURT: You may. 19 MS. COMEY: Nothing further. 20 THE COURT: We have about 15 minutes before lunch. 21 Mr. Pagliuca, you may begin your cross. 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Thank you. 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION 25 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018734 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 137 of 264 1563 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. Good afternoon, Carolyn. 2 Carolyn, you had an acquaintance named Virginia Roberts that was a friend of yours in 2002, approximately; correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you met her through your then boyfriend, Sean; is that correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Sean was a friend of the man that Virginia Roberts was living with, a fellow named Tony; is that correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And Tony and your boyfriend, Sean, were older than you; correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. About four years older than you; is that right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And Ms. Roberts and Tony had an apartment together; is that right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you had been to their apartment; correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You and Sean and Virginia Roberts and Tony hung out at that apartment and smoked marijuana, for example? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. Drank alcohol; correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013150 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 137 of 264 1563 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. Good afternoon, Carolyn. 2 Carolyn, you had an acquaintance named Virginia Roberts that was a friend of yours in 2002, approximately; correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you met her through your then boyfriend, Sean; is that correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Sean was a friend of the man that Virginia Roberts was living with, a fellow named Tony; is that correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And Tony and your boyfriend, Sean, were older than you; correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. About four years older than you; is that right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And Ms. Roberts and Tony had an apartment together; is that right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you had been to their apartment; correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You and Sean and Virginia Roberts and Tony hung out at that apartment and smoked marijuana, for example? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. Drank alcohol; correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018735 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 138 of 264 1564 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 A. We didn't drink any alcohol. 2 Q. Did other drugs? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Now, as I understand it, you were at a party when Virginia Roberts approached you first about making $300; is that correct? 5 6 A. Absolutely not. 7 Q. Do you remember speaking to the FBI in 2007? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And that was the first time that you talked to any law enforcement about Mr. Epstein; correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And I'll direct -- 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: May I approach the witness, your Honor? 13 THE COURT: You may. 14 Q. If you could turn to tab 5 in that binder that I just handed you, the big one, which is 3505-005, page 1. 15 A. Sorry. In which binder? 16 Q. The big binder that I just gave you. 17 THE COURT: Ms. Comey, do you have it? 18 MS. COMEY: I do. Thank you, your Honor. 19 A. What number? I'm sorry. 20 Q. It's the first tab, it's got a 5 on it. 21 A. It's upside down. Hold on. 22 Q. The first page. 23 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013151 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 138 of 264 1564 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 A. We didn't drink any alcohol. 2 Q. Did other drugs? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Now, as I understand it, you were at a party when Virginia Roberts approached you first about making $300; is that correct? 5 6 A. Absolutely not. 7 Q. Do you remember speaking to the FBI in 2007? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And that was the first time that you talked to any law enforcement about Mr. Epstein; correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And I'll direct -- 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: May I approach the witness, your Honor? 13 THE COURT: You may. 14 Q. If you could turn to tab 5 in that binder that I just handed you, the big one, which is 3505-005, page 1. 15 A. Sorry. In which binder? 16 Q. The big binder that I just gave you. 17 THE COURT: Ms. Comey, do you have it? 18 MS. COMEY: I do. Thank you, your Honor. 19 A. What number? I'm sorry. 20 Q. It's the first tab, it's got a 5 on it. 21 A. It's upside down. Hold on. 22 Q. The first page. 23 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018736 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 139 of 264 1565 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: We can display this electronically if it's easier, your Honor. 2 it's easier, your Honor. 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. I want to direct your -- do you have the document? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Page 1, paragraph 2. 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. The fifth line down, do you see where it starts, "Virginia approached Carolyn at a party and asked her if she would like to make $300." Do you see that? 9 10 A. No, I don't. 11 12 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, may we approach? Actually, may I confer with counsel? 13 14 THE COURT: You may confer. 15 Q. Carolyn, directing your attention to that paragraph, do you see that? 16 17 A. Yeah, I see the paragraph. 18 Q. Where it says that, "Virginia approached Carolyn at a party and asked her if she would like to make $300." Do you see that? 19 20 A. Yes, I see that. 21 22 Q. Is that what you told the FBI in 2007? 23 A. No. 24 Q. The FBI got it wrong? 25 A. We weren't at a party. We were at Virginia's house when SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013152 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 139 of 264 1565 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: We can display this electronically if it's easier, your Honor. 2 it's easier, your Honor. 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. I want to direct your -- do you have the document? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Page 1, paragraph 2. 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. The fifth line down, do you see where it starts, "Virginia approached Carolyn at a party and asked her if she would like to make $300." Do you see that? 9 approached Carolyn at a party and asked her if she would like to make $300." Do you see that? 10 to make $300." Do you see that? 11 A. No, I don't. 12 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, may we approach? Actually, may I confer with counsel? 13 may I confer with counsel? 14 THE COURT: You may confer. 15 Q. Carolyn, directing your attention to that paragraph, do you see that? 16 see that? 17 A. Yeah, I see the paragraph. 18 Q. Where it says that, "Virginia approached Carolyn at a party and asked her if she would like to make $300." Do you see that? 19 and asked her if she would like to make $300." Do you see that? 20 that? 21 A. Yes, I see that. 22 Q. Is that what you told the FBI in 2007? 23 A. No. 24 Q. The FBI got it wrong? 25 A. We weren't at a party. We were at Virginia's house when SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018737 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 140 of 264 1566 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 she approached me. 2 Q. Did Virginia explain to you that you could make $300 by providing a man in Palm Beach with a massage? 3 A. She told me that we were going to be meeting a friend of 4 hers in Palm Beach. 5 6 Q. And the friend you were meeting was older; is that correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Now, when Roberts approached you about making this $500, 9 Ms. Maxwell, Ghislaine Maxwell was not there; correct? 10 A. There was no $500. 11 Q. $300. Ms. Maxwell was not there; correct? 12 A. No, it was me and Virginia. 13 Q. And Ms. Maxwell was not involved in this conversation that 14 you had with Ms. Roberts about making this $300; correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. During your conversation with Ms. Roberts, she told you 17 that you could make this $300 by massaging this older man; is 18 that right? 19 A. No. She said we were going to meet one of her friends 20 and -- I'm sorry. Repeat the question. 21 Q. She told you that you could make money by massaging an 22 older man; is that correct? 23 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, can we just classify if 24 Mr. Pagliuca is asking her about a document or her memory as 25 she sits here today. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013153 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 140 of 264 1566 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross she approached me. Q. Did Virginia explain to you that you could make $300 by providing a man in Palm Beach with a massage? A. She told me that we were going to be meeting a friend of hers in Palm Beach. Q. And the friend you were meeting was older; is that correct? A. Yes. Q. Now, when Roberts approached you about making this $500, Ms. Maxwell, Ghislaine Maxwell was not there; correct? A. There was no $500. Q. $300. Ms. Maxwell was not there; correct? A. No, it was me and Virginia. Q. And Ms. Maxwell was not involved in this conversation that you had with Ms. Roberts about making this $300; correct? A. Correct. Q. During your conversation with Ms. Roberts, she told you that you could make this $300 by massaging this older man; is that right? A. No. She said we were going to meet one of her friends and -- I'm sorry. Repeat the question. Q. She told you that you could make money by massaging an older man; is that correct? MS. COMEY: Your Honor, can we just classify if Mr. Pagliuca is asking her about a document or her memory as she sits here today. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018738 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 141 of 264 1567 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: Sure. You're asking about her memory? 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. 3 THE COURT: Start with that question. 4 THE WITNESS: Why do I have the binder? 5 THE COURT: You can close the binder. 6 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 7 Q. Ms. Roberts told you that you could make money by massaging an older man; is that correct? 8 A. No. 9 Q. If you could go back to that same exhibit, 005 at page 1, paragraph 2. 10 A. Go ahead. 11 Q. The last line, isn't it true that you told the FBI, 12 "Virginia explained that Carolyn could make $300 by providing a man in Palm Beach with a massage." Isn't it true, you told them at that time? 13 A. What paragraph are you on? 14 Q. Paragraph 2, the last sentence. 15 A. She didn't tell me anything about a massage at that time. 16 Q. So you're saying you didn't tell that to the FBI in 2007 when they interviewed you? 17 A. She told me that when we got to Mr. Epstein's house. 18 Q. Carolyn, I'm just asking you a very simple question, are you denying telling the FBI, in August of 2007, that Virginia explained that Carolyn could make $300 by providing a man in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013154 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 141 of 264 1567 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: Sure. You're asking about her memory? 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. 3 THE COURT: Start with that question. 4 THE WITNESS: Why do I have the binder? 5 THE COURT: You can close the binder. 6 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 7 Q. Ms. Roberts told you that you could make money by massaging an older man; is that correct? 8 A. No. 9 Q. If you could go back to that same exhibit, 005 at page 1, paragraph 2. 10 A. Go ahead. 11 Q. The last line, isn't it true that you told the FBI, 12 "Virginia explained that Carolyn could make $300 by providing a man in Palm Beach with a massage." Isn't it true, you told them at that time? 13 A. What paragraph are you on? 14 Q. Paragraph 2, the last sentence. 15 A. She didn't tell me anything about a massage at that time. 16 Q. So you're saying you didn't tell that to the FBI in 2007 when they interviewed you? 17 A. She told me that when we got to Mr. Epstein's house. 18 Q. Carolyn, I'm just asking you a very simple question, are you denying telling the FBI, in August of 2007, that Virginia explained that Carolyn could make $300 by providing a man in 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018739 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 142 of 264 1568 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 Palm Beach with a massage? 2 A. Yes, she told me that. 3 Q. And that's what you told the FBI? 4 A. Yes, I told the FBI that. 5 Q. It's also true that Ms. Roberts told you that you could 6 make a lot of money real fast, correct? 7 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, are we talking about a 8 document or her memory? 9 THE COURT: Can you clarify the timeframe of your 10 question, both as to whether you're asking about her current 11 memory, and if so, what time you're asking her to recall. 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm asking about current memory, unless 13 I refer the witness to the document, your Honor. 14 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, it might be helpful to have 15 the witness set the document aside. 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: That's fine. 17 THE COURT: Close the binder, please. 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: Might be easier if we use the screen. 19 THE COURT: Do that. 20 MR. PAGLIUCA: That's fine. 21 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 22 Q. Carolyn, Ms. Roberts told you, you recall, this first time 23 that you could make a lot of money real fast; isn't that true? 24 A. No. 25 Q. If we can show the witness 005, page 1, third paragraph, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013155 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 142 of 264 1568 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 Palm Beach with a massage? 2 A. Yes, she told me that. 3 Q. And that's what you told the FBI? 4 A. Yes, I told the FBI that. 5 Q. It's also true that Ms. Roberts told you that you could make a lot of money real fast, correct? 6 7 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, are we talking about a 8 document or her memory? 9 THE COURT: Can you clarify the timeframe of your 10 question, both as to whether you're asking about her current 11 memory, and if so, what time you're asking her to recall. 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm asking about current memory, unless 13 I refer the witness to the document, your Honor. 14 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, it might be helpful to have 15 the witness set the document aside. 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: That's fine. 17 THE COURT: Close the binder, please. 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: Might be easier if we use the screen. 19 THE COURT: Do that. 20 MR. PAGLIUCA: That's fine. 21 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 22 Q. Carolyn, Ms. Roberts told you, you recall, this first time 23 that you could make a lot of money real fast; isn't that true? 24 A. No. 25 Q. If we can show the witness 005, page 1, third paragraph, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018740 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 143 of 264 1569 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 first sentence, please. 2 A. Yes, I did say that. 3 Q. It's also true, Carolyn, that Ms. Roberts instructed you to dress sexy; is that correct? 4 5 A. Ms. Roberts dressed me sexy to be able to go. 6 Q. Isn't it also true that Ms. Roberts instructed you that if you didn't like something, to let her know; correct? 7 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. She also told you, before you went over to Mr. Epstein's, that you might have to remove your shirt and pants, but could keep your underwear on; is that correct? 10 11 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: We can take this down while we're asking questions. 13 14 A. She had -- she asked me if I wanted to go with her to meet a friend of hers who lived on Palm Beach and I would have to dress provocatively. so she dressed me and said that we could make money. So she drove me there and when we got there is when she told me that she would massage Mr. Epstein with me so I would not feel uncomfortable. 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. Okay. My question is, before you went over there, Ms. Roberts told you that you might have to remove your shirt and pants, but you could keep your underwear on. Is that true or not? 21 22 23 24 A. She told me that when we were in the massage room. 25 Q. Before you went over there, isn't it also true that SOUTERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013156 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 143 of 264 1569 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 first sentence, please. 2 A. Yes, I did say that. 3 Q. It's also true, Carolyn, that Ms. Roberts instructed you to dress sexy; is that correct? 4 5 A. Ms. Roberts dressed me sexy to be able to go. 6 Q. Isn't it also true that Ms. Roberts instructed you that if you didn't like something, to let her know; correct? 7 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. She also told you, before you went over to Mr. Epstein's, that you might have to remove your shirt and pants, but could keep your underwear on; is that correct? 10 11 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: We can take this down while we're asking questions. 13 14 A. She had -- she asked me if I wanted to go with her to meet a friend of hers who lived on Palm Beach and I would have to dress provocatively. so she dressed me and said that we could make money. So she drove me there and when we got there is when she told me that she would massage Mr. Epstein with me so I would not feel uncomfortable. 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q. Okay. My question is, before you went over there, Ms. Roberts told you that you might have to remove your shirt and pants, but you could keep your underwear on. Is that true or not? 21 22 23 24 A. She told me that when we were in the massage room. 25 Q. Before you went over there, isn't it also true that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 144 of 264 1570 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 Ms. Roberts told you to say that you were 17 or 18? 2 A. That is not true. 3 Q. That's not true; is that your testimony? 4 A. She said if somebody asked, I needed to say that. 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can show the witness the same document at paragraph 4. 6 7 Q. Do you see on the last two lines there, "Carolyn was previously instructed by Virginia to tell Epstein she was 17." Do you see that? 8 9 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. Is that what you told the FBI in August of 2007? 12 A. Yes, because I slipped up and told Mr. Epstein that I was 13 14. 14 Q. I'm not asking you what you told Mr. Epstein, I'm asking you first, that's what Ms. Roberts told you and, at first, you said no, and now you're saying yes? 15 16 17 A. She told me if anybody asked, I needed to say I was 17. 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: We can take that down. 19 Q. Do you remember Ms. Roberts saying that he, Epstein, was a friend of hers, we can go there, you can give him a massage, and he will pay. Do you remember that? 20 21 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Now, I want to talk about the timeframe that you've testified about. Isn't it true that the date you first went to Epstein's house at the invitation of Roberts was in May or June 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013157 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 144 of 264 1570 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 Ms. Roberts told you to say that you were 17 or 18? 2 A. That is not true. 3 Q. That's not true; is that your testimony? 4 A. She said if somebody asked, I needed to say that. 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can show the witness the same document at paragraph 4. 6 7 Q. Do you see on the last two lines there, "Carolyn was previously instructed by Virginia to tell Epstein she was 17." Do you see that? 8 9 A. Yeah. 10 11 Q. Is that what you told the FBI in August of 2007? 12 A. Yes, because I slipped up and told Mr. Epstein that I was 13 14. 14 Q. I'm not asking you what you told Mr. Epstein, I'm asking you first, that's what Ms. Roberts told you and, at first, you said no, and now you're saying yes? 15 16 A. She told me if anybody asked, I needed to say I was 17. 17 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: We can take that down. 19 Q. Do you remember Ms. Roberts saying that he, Epstein, was a friend of hers, we can go there, you can give him a massage, and he will pay. Do you remember that? 20 21 A. Yes. 22 23 Q. Now, I want to talk about the timeframe that you've testified about. Isn't it true that the date you first went to Epstein's house at the invitation of Roberts was in May or June 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018742 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 145 of 264 1571 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 of 2002? 2 A. I don't recall. 3 Q. Ms. Comey showed you your deposition testimony from 4 December 2009. Do you recall that? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And that was in connection with your civil lawsuit against 7 Jeffrey Epstein and Sarah Kellen; correct? 8 A. I don't remember. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Let's show the witness 3505-043 at page 10 33 at deposition page 125, lines 23 through 24 through 126, 11 line 2. 12 Q. Do you have that? Isn't it true that, under oath in August 13 of 2009, you were asked the question: 14 "Q. All right. So for purposes -- 15 THE COURT: I'm sorry. It's small again. 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: Can we enlarge that, please. 17 THE COURT: Can we get the page and line numbers that 18 you intend to read. 19 MR. PAGLIUCA: Certainly, your Honor. So we'll start 20 at the bottom, which is page 33, deposition page 125, lines 23 21 through 25 on that page, over to page 126, line 1, and we'll 22 continue down to line 10, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 25 Q. Isn't it true, Carolyn, that, under oath, you were asked SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013158 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 145 of 264 1571 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 of 2002? 2 A. I don't recall. 3 Q. Ms. Comey showed you your deposition testimony from 4 December 2009. Do you recall that? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And that was in connection with your civil lawsuit against 7 Jeffrey Epstein and Sarah Kellen; correct? 8 A. I don't remember. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Let's show the witness 3505-043 at page 10 33 at deposition page 125, lines 23 through 24 through 126, 11 line 2. 12 Q. Do you have that? Isn't it true that, under oath in August 13 of 2009, you were asked the question: 14 "Q. All right. So for purposes -- 15 THE COURT: I'm sorry. It's small again. 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: Can we enlarge that, please. 17 THE COURT: Can we get the page and line numbers that 18 you intend to read. 19 MR. PAGLIUCA: Certainly, your Honor. So we'll start 20 at the bottom, which is page 33, deposition page 125, lines 23 21 through 25 on that page, over to page 126, line 1, and we'll 22 continue down to line 10, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 25 Q. Isn't it true, Carolyn, that, under oath, you were asked SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018743 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 146 of 264 1572 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 the question: 2 "Q. All right. So for purposes of this case, the total period of time that you had any interaction with Mr. Epstein was between May of '02 and August of '03. 3 "A. Uh-huh." 4 5 "Q. Do you see that? 6 "A. I see the ending of that, yes." 7 8 Q. And then if we go to page 126, lines 1 through 10 is the next page -- 9 10 THE COURT: Could you pull up the mic, Mr. Pagliuca. 11 A. We're on page 126. 12 Q. Okay. And then there is another question: 13 "Q. That is another way of saying it is the first time you 14 went, is May of '02, and the last time was August of '03? 15 "A. Yeah." 16 17 Do you see that? 18 A. Yes, I do. 19 Q. And that was your testimony under oath? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. In 2009; correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 "Q. And then you were then asked the question: 24 "Q. Didn't know Mr. Epstein at all prior to May of '02 and had no contact with him after August of '03? 25 "A. Correct." SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013159 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 146 of 264 1572 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 the question: 2 "Q. All right. So for purposes of this case, the total period of time that you had any interaction with Mr. Epstein was between May of '02 and August of '03. 3 "A. Uh-huh." 4 5 "Q. Do you see that? 6 "A. I see the ending of that, yes." 7 8 Q. And then if we go to page 126, lines 1 through 10 is the next page -- 9 10 THE COURT: Could you pull up the mic, Mr. Pagliuca. 11 A. We're on page 126. 12 Q. Okay. And then there is another question: 13 "Q. That is another way of saying it is the first time you 14 went, is May of '02, and the last time was August of '03? 15 "A. Yeah." 16 Do you see that? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. And that was your testimony under oath? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. In 2009; correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And then you were then asked the question: 23 "Q. Didn't know Mr. Epstein at all prior to May of '02 and had 24 no contact with him after August of '03? 25 "A. Correct." SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018744 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 147 of 264 1573 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 Is that right? 2 A. Yes, that's right. 3 Q. So that was your deposition testimony under oath in 2009; 4 is that right? 5 A. Yes, that's right. 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: We can take that down. 7 Q. You recall that Virginia Roberts was 18 when you first met 8 her; is that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you don't recall the exact date, but sometime in May or 11 June of '02 after this conversation is when you went to 12 Mr. Epstein's house; correct? 13 A. I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question. 14 Q. Yes. You don't recall the exact date, but sometime after 15 you had this conversation with Virginia Roberts in May or June 16 of '02 is when you went to Mr. Epstein's house; correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you had never been to the house before; correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. You never met Mr. Epstein before; correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. You didn't even know the name of the person that you were 23 going to meet; correct? 24 A. She told me when we got there. 25 Q. Before you got there, you didn't even know the name of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013160 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 147 of 264 1573 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 Is that right? 2 A. Yes, that's right. 3 Q. So that was your deposition testimony under oath in 2009; 4 is that right? 5 A. Yes, that's right. 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: We can take that down. 7 Q. You recall that Virginia Roberts was 18 when you first met 8 her; is that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you don't recall the exact date, but sometime in May or 11 June of '02 after this conversation is when you went to 12 Mr. Epstein's house; correct? 13 A. I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question. 14 Q. Yes. You don't recall the exact date, but sometime after 15 you had this conversation with Virginia Roberts in May or June 16 of '02 is when you went to Mr. Epstein's house; correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you had never been to the house before; correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. You never met Mr. Epstein before; correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. You didn't even know the name of the person that you were 23 going to meet; correct? 24 A. She told me when we got there. 25 Q. Before you got there, you didn't even know the name of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018745 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 148 of 264 1574 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 person that you were going to meet; correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. And it is Roberts who arranged this meeting with 4 Mr. Epstein; correct? 5 A. I suppose. 6 Q. Well, it was just you and her that went; correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And she drove; correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And she had a white car. Do you recall that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. She picked you up at your house; right? 13 A. Nope. 14 Q. How did you get there? 15 A. We were at her house for the first time, not a party, and 16 it was only me, Sean, Tony, and Virginia, and she dressed me 17 provocatively and that's when we went to Mr. Epstein's home. 18 Q. Okay. She knew where to go; right? 19 A. Yes, she did. 20 Q. And she drove the two of you there; is that right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And it took about 30 minutes or so to get there; is that 23 fair? 24 A. I have no idea, sir. 25 Q. She parked the car; right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013161 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 148 of 264 1574 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 person that you were going to meet; correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. And it is Roberts who arranged this meeting with 4 Mr. Epstein; correct? 5 A. I suppose. 6 Q. Well, it was just you and her that went; correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And she drove; correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And she had a white car. Do you recall that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. She picked you up at your house; right? 13 A. Nope. 14 Q. How did you get there? 15 A. We were at her house for the first time, not a party, and 16 it was only me, Sean, Tony, and Virginia, and she dressed me 17 provocatively and that's when we went to Mr. Epstein's home. 18 Q. Okay. She knew where to go; right? 19 A. Yes, she did. 20 Q. And she drove the two of you there; is that right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And it took about 30 minutes or so to get there; is that 23 fair? 24 A. I have no idea, sir. 25 Q. She parked the car; right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018746 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 149 of 264 1575 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 A. Obviously. 2 Q. And then you and she walked to the front door; is that correct? 3 A. No, we walked to the kitchen door. 4 Q. You walked to a door; right? 5 A. That led into the kitchen. 6 Q. Okay. You went inside; right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Now, this is approximately 19 years ago is what we're talking about here today; correct? 9 A. Give or take. 10 Q. And you had never been inside this house before; correct? 11 A. Didn't you already ask me that question? 12 Q. I don't think I did. 13 A. That was the first time I went, was with Virginia. 14 Q. And that's the first time you were inside; correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. You had never met anyone who worked there before; correct? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. And you went inside and you were taken upstairs by Virginia Roberts; correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 THE COURT: Mr. Pagliuca, we're going to break here for lunch. 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013162 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 149 of 264 1575 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 A. Obviously. 2 Q. And then you and she walked to the front door; is that correct? 3 A. No, we walked to the kitchen door. 4 Q. You walked to a door; right? 5 A. That led into the kitchen. 6 Q. Okay. You went inside; right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Now, this is approximately 19 years ago is what we're talking about here today; correct? 9 A. Give or take. 10 Q. And you had never been inside this house before; correct? 11 A. Didn't you already ask me that question? 12 Q. I don't think I did. 13 A. That was the first time I went, was with Virginia. 14 Q. And that's the first time you were inside; correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. You had never met anyone who worked there before; correct? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. And you went inside and you were taken upstairs by Virginia Roberts; correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 THE COURT: Mr. Pagliuca, we're going to break here for lunch. 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018747 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 150 of 264 1576 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: Members of the jury, you have your lunch. We'll resume in about an hour. Thank you so much. (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013163 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 150 of 264 1576 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: Members of the jury, you have your lunch. We'll resume in about an hour. Thank you so much. 2 (Continued on next page) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018748 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 151 of 264 1577 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: The witness may step down and break for lunch. 3 lunch. 4 (Witness excused) 5 Everyone may be seated. Okay, matters to take up before the break? 6 7 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. During the morning break, 8 we had an opportunity to speak with the witness identified as Brian. I've provided a copy of the notes from that 9 conversation to defense counsel when we came back from the 10 break along with a text message that Brian provided us a copy 11 with. I'm happy to -- we haven't had a chance to stamp them 12 yet with 3500 numbers, but I'm happy to provide a copy to the 13 Court. 14 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MS. MOE: Besides that, is there a particular time 17 when the Court would like to take up that particular issue and 18 the other issue that we addressed at sidebar? 19 20 THE COURT: Let's discuss this now since that goes to 21 the defense's at least prior request was the exclusion of his 22 testimony. So I'll hear from you on that, if you're prepared 23 to be heard from that now or we break and then I hear from you. 24 MS. MOE: Your Honor, we'd be happy to take this up 25 after the break, perhaps in order to provide defense counsel an opportunity to review those further and to confer on this SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013164 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 151 of 264 1577 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: The witness may step down and break for lunch. 3 lunch. 4 (Witness excused) 5 Everyone may be seated. Okay, matters to take up before the break? 6 7 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. During the morning break, 8 we had an opportunity to speak with the witness identified as Brian. I've provided a copy of the notes from that 9 conversation to defense counsel when we came back from the 10 break along with a text message that Brian provided us a copy 11 with. I'm happy to -- we haven't had a chance to stamp them 12 yet with 3500 numbers, but I'm happy to provide a copy to the 13 Court. 14 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MS. MOE: Besides that, is there a particular time 17 when the Court would like to take up that particular issue and 18 the other issue that we addressed at sidebar? 19 20 THE COURT: Let's discuss this now since that goes to 21 the defense's at least prior request was the exclusion of his 22 testimony. So I'll hear from you on that, if you're prepared 23 to be heard from that now or we break and then I hear from you. 24 MS. MOE: Your Honor, we'd be happy to take this up 25 after the break, perhaps in order to provide defense counsel an opportunity to review those further and to confer on this SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018749 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 152 of 264 1578 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross issue. I just wanted to alert the Court that we had run this issue down and disclosed that matter and wanted to promptly alert the Court about that. THE COURT: So Ms. Menninger, the suggestion is we all look at the copy of the notes, I think we resume in about 30 minutes to address the issue. MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. I received it right as testimony was beginning, so I have not studied them. If your Honor would like to take an additional 10 minutes, I can try to do some research, but if your Honor is just wanting to address the content of the note -- THE COURT: My suggestion is we all look at the contents of the notes, do some research, and resume in 30 minutes. How is that? MS. MENNINGER: I will do my best, your Honor. THE COURT: It's all we all can do. Do you want to give a 3500 stamp or -- MS. MOE: Your Honor, I would suggest that we hand up the printed copy now and, during the break, we can stamp it and send an email copy to chambers. THE COURT: That's fine. MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. THE COURT: So it's 12:55. We'll resume in 30 minutes to discuss this. Assuming we're going forward with this witness's testimony, we'll take up, at sidebar, the issue SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013165 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 152 of 264 1578 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross issue. I just wanted to alert the Court that we had run this issue down and disclosed that matter and wanted to promptly alert the Court about that. THE COURT: So Ms. Menninger, the suggestion is we all look at the copy of the notes, I think we resume in about 30 minutes to address the issue. MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. I received it right as testimony was beginning, so I have not studied them. If your Honor would like to take an additional 10 minutes, I can try to do some research, but if your Honor is just wanting to address the content of the note -- THE COURT: My suggestion is we all look at the contents of the notes, do some research, and resume in 30 minutes. How is that? MS. MENNINGER: I will do my best, your Honor. THE COURT: It's all we all can do. Do you want to give a 3500 stamp or -- MS. MOE: Your Honor, I would suggest that we hand up the printed copy now and, during the break, we can stamp it and send an email copy to chambers. THE COURT: That's fine. MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. THE COURT: So it's 12:55. We'll resume in 30 minutes to discuss this. Assuming we're going forward with this witness's testimony, we'll take up, at sidebar, the issue SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018750 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 153 of 264 1579 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross 1 regarding a question that the defense is interested in that implicates some privacy issues. Correct? 2 3 MS. MODE: Thank you, your Honor. Yes. 4 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: We'll meet in 30. Thank you. 6 (Recess) 7 (Continued on next page) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013166 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 153 of 264 1579 LC7Cmax4 Carolyn - cross regarding a question that the defense is interested in that implicates some privacy issues. Correct? MS. MODE: Thank you, your Honor. Yes. MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: We'll meet in 30. Thank you. (Recess) (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018751 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 154 of 264 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1580 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 1:40 P.M. 2 3 THE COURT: All right. We'll take up the question of 4 the communication between the brother of Jane and Jane. 5 MR. ROHRBACH: Yes, your Honor. 6 During the break, the government did find some cases. 7 But we also learned toward the end of the break that there are 8 a small number of additional text messages. 9 The government's view at this point is that it makes 10 sense for us to fully run down and make sure we have identified 11 the universe of text messages. And we're willing to not call 12 Brian until tomorrow morning to give the parties an opportunity 13 to understand all the facts and provide an analysis of the law. 14 And so my understanding from talking to Ms. Menninger 15 is that the defense doesn't object to allowing us to brief this 16 issue tonight and call Brian and address it tomorrow morning. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. As long as the 19 factual record is still undeveloped, I don't think it makes 20 sense to start applying the law to those facts. But I repeat 21 my request that there be an actual under-oath representation by 22 this witness about the communications rather than dribbling out 23 information. 24 THE COURT: Well, I don't know if we'll need an under 25 oath prior to his testimony. Certainly it can be fully SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013167 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 154 of 264 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1580 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 1:40 P.M. 2 3 THE COURT: All right. We'll take up the question of 4 the communication between the brother of Jane and Jane. 5 MR. ROHRBACH: Yes, your Honor. 6 During the break, the government did find some cases. 7 But we also learned toward the end of the break that there are 8 a small number of additional text messages. 9 10 The government's view at this point is that it makes 11 sense for us to fully run down and make sure we have identified 12 the universe of text messages. And we're willing to not call 13 Brian until tomorrow morning to give the parties an opportunity 14 to understand all the facts and provide an analysis of the law. 15 And so my understanding from talking to Ms. Menninger 16 is that the defense doesn't object to allowing us to brief this 17 issue tonight and call Brian and address it tomorrow morning. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. As long as the 20 factual record is still undeveloped, I don't think it makes 21 sense to start applying the law to those facts. But I repeat 22 my request that there be an actual under-oath representation by 23 this witness about the communications rather than dribbling out 24 information. 25 THE COURT: Well, I don't know if we'll need an under oath prior to his testimony. Certainly it can be fully SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018752 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 155 of 264 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 explored in your cross-examination, which is under oath. But I do think in advance of that, we need a full understanding which I think includes making sure you have every text and email communication. I would think you need to have an interview with Jane, as well, to see if you're getting the same information from her. And I think you need to make sure that there are no other conduits of information regarding Jane's testimony to the brother. MR. ROHRBACH: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. And I've started to look at the law too. I think it's unlikely we're going to get to a breach of the text of the rule. I think my hypo about if somebody passed the transcript would certainly go to a violation of the spirit of the rule and not the text. And there may be some further version of full communication of her testimony, especially a witness who's being put on solely to provide prior consistent statements. I don't think the government did anything wrong. I'm a little shocked that this wasn't fully drilled into these witnesses just as a matter of best practice. I understand from the notes that it was communicated to the witnesses not to speak to other witnesses, but somehow this witness didn't understand that to mean his sister. But here we are. MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, on that point, we would just say that the notes from today reflect that the witness SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013168 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 155 of 264 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 explored in your cross-examination, which is under oath. But I do think in advance of that, we need a full understanding which I think includes making sure you have every text and email communication. I would think you need to have an interview with Jane, as well, to see if you're getting the same information from her. And I think you need to make sure that there are no other conduits of information regarding Jane's testimony to the brother. MR. ROHRBACH: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. And I've started to look at the law too. I think it's unlikely we're going to get to a breach of the text of the rule. I think my hypo about if somebody passed the transcript would certainly go to a violation of the spirit of the rule and not the text. And there may be some further version of full communication of her testimony, especially a witness who's being put on solely to provide prior consistent statements. I don't think the government did anything wrong. I'm a little shocked that this wasn't fully drilled into these witnesses just as a matter of best practice. I understand from the notes that it was communicated to the witnesses not to speak to other witnesses, but somehow this witness didn't understand that to mean his sister. But here we are. MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, on that point, we would just say that the notes from today reflect that the witness SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018753 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 156 of 264 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross recalls having been instructed by the government not to discuss his testimony with his sister. Of course, it can be very difficult not to talk about your life with your family. THE COURT: Right. That would be the kind of thing, I would think, best practices would say, Look, I know this is difficult. This is important. I imagine that is a conversation that many government lawyers have with witnesses. MR. ROHRBACH: Yes, your Honor. And my understanding is that we did have that conversation. THE COURT: Okay. Then it may be a little hard to square that that conversation was had with the statement that it was unclear that this was a transgression. There's some mismatch there. So you need to run a full investigation. We'll have those facts produced to the defense by what time? MR. ROHRBACH: We'll be working on it through the afternoon today. We will do our best to have disclosed as much as we know by the end of the court day. Understanding the breadth of the investigation the Court wants, it may take longer to complete all of -- THE COURT: Well, you should think about whether there is anything else worth pursuing to make sure that the Court and both sides have a full factual record. MR. ROHRBACH: We will certainly give that thought. THE COURT: And then, as I say, I think once we have SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013169 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 156 of 264 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross recalls having been instructed by the government not to discuss his testimony with his sister. Of course, it can be very difficult not to talk about your life with your family. THE COURT: Right. That would be the kind of thing, I would think, best practices would say, Look, I know this is difficult. This is important. I imagine that is a conversation that many government lawyers have with witnesses. MR. ROHRBACH: Yes, your Honor. And my understanding is that we did have that conversation. THE COURT: Okay. Then it may be a little hard to square that that conversation was had with the statement that it was unclear that this was a transgression. There's some mismatch there. So you need to run a full investigation. We'll have those facts produced to the defense by what time? MR. ROHRBACH: We'll be working on it through the afternoon today. We will do our best to have disclosed as much as we know by the end of the court day. Understanding the breadth of the investigation the Court wants, it may take longer to complete all of -- THE COURT: Well, you should think about whether there is anything else worth pursuing to make sure that the Court and both sides have a full factual record. MR. ROHRBACH: We will certainly give that thought. THE COURT: And then, as I say, I think once we have SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018754 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 157 of 264 1583 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 that, my quick look at the case law is that I'm very unlikely to exclude, unless there was some knowing and full violation of the sequestration spirit, if details of -- significant details of Jane's testimony. But in the absence of that, I think what we have is ripe grounds for cross-examination with an opportunity for the defense to have at it. 7 MR. ROHRBACH: Yes, your Honor. 8 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor I looked at some recent case law, and I imagine your Honor has seen similar cases. But one was Judge Engelmayer's decision in Teman. And there are some significant reasons why this case is much different than the decision he reached in that case, including the fact that was a conversation between the government and a witness rather than -- he distinguished the other cases, which were a witness speaking to another witness. 15 THE COURT: There was no order in place for witnesses not to speak. It could have been requested, I suppose. It wasn't requested. I didn't put one in place. I never have. 19 And the reason is because if witnesses speak to each other, that's going to come out on cross, and boy is that going to look bad for the witnesses. 22 So I think that's probably where we are. I have looked at Teman. I looked at the rule. We'll keep looking at cases once we have the full factual record. 25 But it seems to me we're likely to be at a point where SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013170 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 157 of 264 1583 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 that, my quick look at the case law is that I'm very unlikely to exclude, unless there was some knowing and full violation of the sequestration spirit, if details of -- significant details of Jane's testimony. But in the absence of that, I think what we have is ripe grounds for cross-examination with an opportunity for the defense to have at it. 7 MR. ROHRBACH: Yes, your Honor. 8 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor I looked at some recent case law, and I imagine your Honor has seen similar cases. But one was Judge Engelmayer's decision in Teman. And there are some significant reasons why this case is much different than the decision he reached in that case, including the fact that was a conversation between the government and a witness rather than -- he distinguished the other cases, which were a witness speaking to another witness. 15 THE COURT: There was no order in place for witnesses not to speak. It could have been requested, I suppose. It wasn't requested. I didn't put one in place. I never have. 19 And the reason is because if witnesses speak to each other, that's going to come out on cross, and boy is that going to look bad for the witnesses. 22 So I think that's probably where we are. I have looked at Teman. I looked at the rule. We'll keep looking at cases once we have the full factual record. 25 But it seems to me we're likely to be at a point where SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018755 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 158 of 264 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross we have the factual record. There's no additional record that would lead to exclusion, and so we'll do what we need to do. A hearing, an order, only to prepare further for what's going to happen is likely not necessarily. I don't see any law that supports that. But we'll get the full factual record and you'll brief it. So I would like -- if this witness is going to testify tomorrow, I think the government needs to provide the defense the results of a full factual investigation by 6 p.m. And then, Ms. Menninger, when would you like to brief the issue? MS. MENNINGER: By 9 p.m., your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. By 9 p.m. And then let's say -- Mr. Rohrbach? MR. ROHRBACH: I apologize. By 9 p.m. By midnight. I know that's late for the Court. That would be three hours for each side to write a brief. THE COURT: Okay. MR. ROHRBACH: Thank you, your Honor. Just one other point on this witness, your Honor. We understand that this witness is also a subject of a defense subpoena. And so the government would just like to know whether, in light of the defense's motion to preclude his testimony for this reason, he's still under defense subpoena. THE COURT: I suppose they might want to know the result of that motion first. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013171 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 158 of 264 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross we have the factual record. There's no additional record that would lead to exclusion, and so we'll do what we need to do. A hearing, an order, only to prepare further for what's going to happen is likely not necessarily. I don't see any law that supports that. But we'll get the full factual record and you'll brief it. So I would like -- if this witness is going to testify tomorrow, I think the government needs to provide the defense the results of a full factual investigation by 6 p.m. And then, Ms. Menninger, when would you like to brief the issue? MS. MENNINGER: By 9 p.m., your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. By 9 p.m. And then let's say -- Mr. Rohrbach? MR. ROHRBACH: I apologize. By 9 p.m. By midnight. I know that's late for the Court. That would be three hours for each side to write a brief. THE COURT: Okay. MR. ROHRBACH: Thank you, your Honor. Just one other point on this witness, your Honor. We understand that this witness is also a subject of a defense subpoena. And so the government would just like to know whether, in light of the defense's motion to preclude his testimony for this reason, he's still under defense subpoena. THE COURT: I suppose they might want to know the result of that motion first. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018756 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 159 of 264 1585 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Right? 3 MR. ROHRBACH: Yes. 4 THE COURT: Okay. In other words, let's put it this way: If I grant your motion, do you intend to call the brother? 5 6 MS. MENNINGER: It seems highly unlikely, your Honor. 7 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MS. MENNINGER: But, your Honor, two very quick factual issues. One is you may recall that when we began at the final pretrial conference on November 23rd, we specifically requested permission to share Dr. Rocchio's testimony with our two experts because we believed that this issue precluded otherwise witnesses listening in or finding out about the testimony of other witnesses, one. 10 11 12 13 14 15 The second point is -- 16 17 THE COURT: And I said talk it out, confer, and then brief me if you have disagreement. I received no briefing. 18 19 MS. MENNINGER: I think there was no objection to that process, your Honor. 20 21 MR. ROHRBACH: There was no objection. 22 23 MS. MENNINGER: And then the second point is when Jane was released from the stand and the government asked for permission to speak with her about logistical matters, I said at that time, So long as she's admonished that she's not to 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013172 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 159 of 264 1585 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Right? 3 MR. ROHRBACH: Yes. 4 THE COURT: Okay. In other words, let's put it this way: If I grant your motion, do you intend to call the brother? 5 6 MS. MENNINGER: It seems highly unlikely, your Honor. 7 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MS. MENNINGER: But, your Honor, two very quick factual issues. One is you may recall that when we began at the final pretrial conference on November 23rd, we specifically requested permission to share Dr. Rocchio's testimony with our two experts because we believed that this issue precluded otherwise witnesses listening in or finding out about the testimony of other witnesses, one. 10 11 12 13 14 15 The second point is -- 16 THE COURT: And I said talk it out, confer, and then brief me if you have disagreement. I received no briefing. 17 18 MS. MENNINGER: I think there was no objection to that process, your Honor. 19 20 MR. ROHRBACH: There was no objection. 21 22 MS. MENNINGER: And then the second point is when Jane was released from the stand and the government asked for permission to speak with her about logistical matters, I said at that time, So long as she's admonished that she's not to 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018757 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 160 of 264 1586 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 speak to other witnesses; and they said, Of course. That was a brief sidebar conversation that was had. 3 So just to the extent your Honor has brought up the fact that there wasn't an order specifically saying witnesses aren't to speak to one another, I certainly thought it was implied in the course and conduct of what had occurred and the sequestration order generally. 8 THE COURT: Okay. You'll brief it. 9 MR. ROHRBACH: Yes, we'll brief it, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 So I suppose that we can deal then in the afternoon or tomorrow with the related sub question of an area that the defense seeks to cross the witness on. 14 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. 15 Ms. Moe and I spoke briefly. We assumed, I think, as your Honor said, that the question of gatekeeping would logically come first before dealing with a side issue if he does testify. We didn't really have a chance over the break to explore the facts of that further. 20 THE COURT: Okay. So you'll confer on that and we can take it up. I suppose we could take it up in the morning. There's going to be a lot to do in the morning. But I need to hear from you on it before I resolve the question of whether Brian will testify on the theory that I think it's likely that he will testify. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013173 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 160 of 264 1586 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 speak to other witnesses; and they said, Of course. That was a brief sidebar conversation that was had. 3 So just to the extent your Honor has brought up the fact that there wasn't an order specifically saying witnesses aren't to speak to one another, I certainly thought it was implied in the course and conduct of what had occurred and the sequestration order generally. 8 THE COURT: Okay. You'll brief it. 9 MR. ROHRBACH: Yes, we'll brief it, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 So I suppose that we can deal then in the afternoon or tomorrow with the related sub question of an area that the defense seeks to cross the witness on. 14 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. 15 Ms. Moe and I spoke briefly. We assumed, I think, as your Honor said, that the question of gatekeeping would logically come first before dealing with a side issue if he does testify. We didn't really have a chance over the break to explore the facts of that further. 20 THE COURT: Okay. So you'll confer on that and we can take it up. I suppose we could take it up in the morning. There's going to be a lot to do in the morning. But I need to hear from you on it before I resolve the question of whether Brian will testify on the theory that I think it's likely that he will testify. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018758 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 161 of 264 1587 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 MS. MENNINGER: Understood, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 3 Is there anything else we can address now? 4 MS. STERNHEIM: I can raise this now or -- 5 THE COURT: Microphone please. 6 MS. STERNHEIM: I apologize. 7 THE COURT: That's okay. 8 MS. STERNHEIM: I could raise this now or we could hold off, but the government has indicated that they may call some witnesses out of order. That's not the issue. 9 10 But with regard to one of the witnesses that they may call, I have some objection to the relevance of some of the testimony. And I did not know if you wish to hear it now or wait until such time as they actually intend to call. 11 12 13 14 THE COURT: Okay. So, let's see. We have the current witness. How long do you anticipate for your cross, Mr. Pagliuca? 15 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm going to guess an hour, hour and a half, your Honor, something like that. 17 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 MR. PAGLIUCA: Some of that may depend on some issues that I think the government has opened the door on. And I don't know if you want to talk about those now or later. 20 21 22 THE COURT: Well, I don't want the jury to be sitting idly. So if it is going to happen in your cross, we should SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013174 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 161 of 264 1587 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 MS. MENNINGER: Understood, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 3 Is there anything else we can address now? 4 MS. STERNHEIM: I can raise this now or -- 5 THE COURT: Microphone please. 6 MS. STERNHEIM: I apologize. 7 THE COURT: That's okay. 8 MS. STERNHEIM: I could raise this now or we could hold off, but the government has indicated that they may call some witnesses out of order. That's not the issue. 9 10 But with regard to one of the witnesses that they may call, I have some objection to the relevance of some of the testimony. And I did not know if you wish to hear it now or wait until such time as they actually intend to call. 11 12 13 14 THE COURT: Okay. So, let's see. We have the current witness. How long do you anticipate for your cross, Mr. Pagliuca? 15 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm going to guess an hour, hour and a half, your Honor, something like that. 17 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 MR. PAGLIUCA: Some of that may depend on some issues that I think the government has opened the door on. And I don't know if you want to talk about those now or later. 20 21 22 THE COURT: Well, I don't want the jury to be sitting idly. So if it is going to happen in your cross, we should SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018759 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 162 of 264 1588 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 talk about it now. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: Sure. I don't know if you want to deal 3 with Ms. Sternheim's issue first. 4 MS. STERNHEIM: Mine should go to the back of the bus 5 on this. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: So there was direct examination 8 testimony, your Honor, concerning psychiatric issues, ongoing 9 psychiatric issues, with this witness. I think there was some 10 minimization of the ongoing psychiatric issues. And the 11 records that I have reflect much more extensive psychiatric 12 issues. 13 I believe that I should be allowed to inquire about 14 her extensive psychiatric history. There were questions on 15 direct examination about her ongoing drug abuse, and I think 16 that opens -- and I think it was minimized. And I think that 17 that opens the door to my being able to examine on the full 18 extent of her ongoing drug abuse. 19 There was also testimony raised sort of in the vein 20 of, I'm schizophrenic and I am schizophrenic about my children 21 because they're important to me, essentially, and that's why I 22 have this schizophrenia and hear voices around my children. 23 This witness has a significant history of having her 24 children taken away from her and these children living with her 25 mother or other relatives. And I think that the way that the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013175 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 162 of 264 1588 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 talk about it now. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: Sure. I don't know if you want to deal 3 with Ms. Sternheim's issue first. 4 MS. STERNHEIM: Mine should go to the back of the bus 5 on this. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: So there was direct examination 8 testimony, your Honor, concerning psychiatric issues, ongoing 9 psychiatric issues, with this witness. I think there was some 10 minimization of the ongoing psychiatric issues. And the 11 records that I have reflect much more extensive psychiatric 12 issues. 13 I believe that I should be allowed to inquire about 14 her extensive psychiatric history. There were questions on 15 direct examination about her ongoing drug abuse, and I think 16 that opens -- and I think it was minimized. And I think that 17 that opens the door to my being able to examine on the full 18 extent of her ongoing drug abuse. 19 There was also testimony raised sort of in the vein 20 of, I'm schizophrenic and I am schizophrenic about my children 21 because they're important to me, essentially, and that's why I 22 have this schizophrenia and hear voices around my children. 23 This witness has a significant history of having her 24 children taken away from her and these children living with her 25 mother or other relatives. And I think that the way that the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018760 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 163 of 264 1589 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross government has framed this allows for inquiry about that. And had the government not asked those questions, it was not my intent to get into any of the child issues. But I think the jury is left with the impression that because of what Epstein did to her, she's now schizophrenic and has all these schizophrenic concerns about her children, when, for the last 19 years, these children have been repeatedly put in different places as a result of her problems. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I think if Mr. Pagliuca is going to go into detail, we should be having this at side bar under seal, if we're going to be discussing the details of her family. THE COURT: Yes. MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. THE COURT: The court reporter requested, so she can sit, that we do it in the robing room. (Pages 1590 to 1601 SEALED) (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013176 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 163 of 264 1589 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross government has framed this allows for inquiry about that. And had the government not asked those questions, it was not my intent to get into any of the child issues. But I think the jury is left with the impression that because of what Epstein did to her, she's now schizophrenic and has all these schizophrenic concerns about her children, when, for the last 19 years, these children have been repeatedly put in different places as a result of her problems. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I think if Mr. Pagliuca is going to go into detail, we should be having this at side bar under seal, if we're going to be discussing the details of her family. THE COURT: Yes. MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. THE COURT: The court reporter requested, so she can sit, that we do it in the robing room. (Pages 1590 to 1601 SEALED) (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018761 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 164 of 264 1602 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: We'll bring in the jury. 3 Can we have the witness come back please. 4 MS. POMERANTZ: I believe Ms. Comey just went to do 5 that, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Thank you. Bring in the jury. 7 (Jury present) 8 THE COURT: Please take your seats. We're just 9 waiting for the witness to return. 10 Good afternoon, Carolyn. You may remove your mask. 11 And I remind you, you are under oath. 12 And Mr. Pagliuca, you may resume with your 13 cross-examination. 14 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 15 THE WITNESS: One second. I walked upstairs. 16 THE COURT: Sorry about that. Take your time. 17 THE WITNESS: Okay. 18 CAROLYN, resumed. 19 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 20 Q. Are you ready? 21 A. Yup. 22 Q. Okay. Carolyn, when we broke for lunch -- 23 THE COURT: Could you pull the mic up, Mr. Pagliuca? 24 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Thank you. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013177 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 164 of 264 1602 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: We'll bring in the jury. 3 Can we have the witness come back please. 4 MS. POMERANTZ: I believe Ms. Comey just went to do 5 that, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Thank you. Bring in the jury. 7 (Jury present) 8 THE COURT: Please take your seats. We're just 9 waiting for the witness to return. 10 Good afternoon, Carolyn. You may remove your mask. 11 And I remind you, you are under oath. 12 And Mr. Pagliuca, you may resume with your 13 cross-examination. 14 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 15 THE WITNESS: One second. I walked upstairs. 16 THE COURT: Sorry about that. Take your time. 17 THE WITNESS: Okay. 18 CAROLYN, resumed. 19 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 20 Q. Are you ready? 21 A. Yup. 22 Q. Okay. Carolyn, when we broke for lunch -- 23 THE COURT: Could you pull the mic up, Mr. Pagliuca? 24 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Thank you. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018762 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 165 of 264 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. -- we were talking about 2002, when you went to Mr. Epstein's house with Virginia Roberts. And I think where we stopped was you were -- you went into the house and you were taken upstairs by Ms. Roberts. Do you recall that? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Now, the only person that you saw when you entered the house, you identified as being an older lady with unknown hair and an unknown accent. Is that correct? 9 A. No. I said she had shoulder-length black hair with an accent. 11 Q. Do you recall again giving a statement to the FBI in August of 2007? 13 A. A what? A testimony? 14 Q. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI in August of 2007, Special Agents Nesbitt and Kuyrkendall? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And they met with you at your house; is that right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And they weren't there to be mean to you; they were trying to ask you questions. Correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And they introduced themselves to you, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you certainly had no reason to lie to them; correct? 25 A. Correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013178 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 165 of 264 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. -- we were talking about 2002, when you went to Mr. Epstein's house with Virginia Roberts. And I think where we stopped was you were -- you went into the house and you were taken upstairs by Ms. Roberts. Do you recall that? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Now, the only person that you saw when you entered the house, you identified as being an older lady with unknown hair and an unknown accent. Is that correct? 9 A. No. I said she had shoulder-length black hair with an accent. 11 Q. Do you recall again giving a statement to the FBI in August of 2007? 13 A. A what? A testimony? 14 Q. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI in August of 2007, Special Agents Nesbitt and Kuyrkendall? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And they met with you at your house; is that right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And they weren't there to be mean to you; they were trying to ask you questions. Correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And they introduced themselves to you, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you certainly had no reason to lie to them; correct? 25 A. Correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018763 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 166 of 264 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. You told the FBI the truth at that meeting; correct? 2 A. Some of the things I didn't mention because I was embarrassed. 3 4 Q. So let's talk about that. 5 Do you recall testifying at your deposition, this is 6 at 3505-043, page 27. 7 THE COURT: And give us the line numbers while that's 8 being brought up on the screen. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: It's actually 3505-043, 9, at 10 deposition page 37, lines 21 through 23. 11 THE COURT: I don't have anything on my screen yet. 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: 3505-043, page 9, page 27, deposition, 13 lines 21 through 23, continuing on to the next page, which is 14 28, lines 1 and 2. 15 May I, your Honor? 16 THE COURT: Ms. Comey, any objection? 17 MS. COMEY: No, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Go ahead. 19 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 20 Q. Isn't it true, Carolyn, that you testified under oath in 21 2009 to the following: 22 "Q. Whether you were under oath or not, did you tell them the 23 truth at that meeting? 24 "A. Yeah. 25 "Q. Did you tell the FBI the truth when they came to your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013179 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 166 of 264 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. You told the FBI the truth at that meeting; correct? 2 A. Some of the things I didn't mention because I was embarrassed. 3 4 Q. So let's talk about that. 5 Do you recall testifying at your deposition, this is 6 at 3505-043, page 27. 7 THE COURT: And give us the line numbers while that's 8 being brought up on the screen. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: It's actually 3505-043, 9, at 10 deposition page 37, lines 21 through 23. 11 THE COURT: I don't have anything on my screen yet. 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: 3505-043, page 9, page 27, deposition, 13 lines 21 through 23, continuing on to the next page, which is 14 28, lines 1 and 2. 15 May I, your Honor? 16 THE COURT: Ms. Comey, any objection? 17 MS. COMEY: No, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Go ahead. 19 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 20 Q. Isn't it true, Carolyn, that you testified under oath in 21 2009 to the following: 22 "Q. Whether you were under oath or not, did you tell them the 23 truth at that meeting? 24 "A. Yeah. 25 "Q. Did you tell the FBI the truth when they came to your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018764 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 167 of 264 1605 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 house? 2 "A. Yes. I have absolute no -- absolutely no reason to lie 3 about this situation." 4 Do you recall that testimony under oath? 5 A. I do not remember if I was under oath or not, but I do 6 remember the question. 7 Q. Okay. And you testified in your deposition that you told 8 the FBI the truth in 2007; correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. So let's go back to what you told the FBI. And this 11 is at 3505-005, page 1, fourth paragraph, second sentence: 12 Carolyn noticed an older lady with short black hair 13 and an unknown accent at Epstein's residence. Isn't that what 14 you told the FBI when you told them the truth in 2007? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And they didn't cut you off when you were talking to them; 17 correct? 18 A. Well, that day was a bad day for me. So it was like -- I 19 was not expecting the FBI to come to my home. 20 Q. Okay. They didn't cut you off though, they weren't rude to 21 you; correct? 22 A. No, they weren't rude. 23 Q. Okay. And they gave you the opportunity to tell them 24 whatever you wanted to tell them; correct? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013180 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 167 of 264 1605 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 house? 2 "A. Yes. I have absolute no -- absolutely no reason to lie 3 about this situation." 4 Do you recall that testimony under oath? 5 A. I do not remember if I was under oath or not, but I do 6 remember the question. 7 Q. Okay. And you testified in your deposition that you told 8 the FBI the truth in 2007; correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. So let's go back to what you told the FBI. And this 11 is at 3505-005, page 1, fourth paragraph, second sentence: 12 Carolyn noticed an older lady with short black hair 13 and an unknown accent at Epstein's residence. Isn't that what 14 you told the FBI when you told them the truth in 2007? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And they didn't cut you off when you were talking to them; 17 correct? 18 A. Well, that day was a bad day for me. So it was like -- I 19 was not expecting the FBI to come to my home. 20 Q. Okay. They didn't cut you off though, they weren't rude to 21 you; correct? 22 A. No, they weren't rude. 23 Q. Okay. And they gave you the opportunity to tell them 24 whatever you wanted to tell them; correct? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018765 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 168 of 264 1606 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. Okay. What you told them, the only thing you told them is that you saw an older lady with short black hair and an unknown accent; correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Now, at that point in your life, you knew what a British accent was, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you didn't tell them a British accent, you said an unknown accent, correct? 6 A. I didn't say an unknown accent, I said with an accent. 7 Q. Are you denying telling the FBI in 2007 that you said an unknown accent? 8 A. The day that you're talking about -- 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I'd ask that the Court -- 10 A. -- talking about -- 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'd ask that the Court direct the witness to answer the question please. 12 THE COURT: I will direct the witness to answer the specific question and then you can explain. 13 Would you like -- 14 THE WITNESS: Yeah, can I -- 15 THE COURT: Repeat the question. 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. 17 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 18 Q. You told the FBI that it was an unknown accent; correct? 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013181 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 168 of 264 1606 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. Okay. What you told them, the only thing you told them is that you saw an older lady with short black hair and an unknown accent; correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Now, at that point in your life, you knew what a British accent was, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you didn't tell them a British accent, you said an unknown accent, correct? 6 A. I didn't say an unknown accent, I said with an accent. 7 Q. Are you denying telling the FBI in 2007 that you said an unknown accent? 8 A. The day that you're talking about -- 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I'd ask that the Court -- 10 A. -- talking about -- 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'd ask that the Court direct the witness to answer the question please. 12 THE COURT: I will direct the witness to answer the specific question and then you can explain. 13 Would you like -- 14 THE WITNESS: Yeah, can I -- 15 THE COURT: Repeat the question. 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. 17 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 18 Q. You told the FBI that it was an unknown accent; correct? 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018766 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 169 of 264 1607 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Thank you. 3 Okay. You didn't say anything else about the person that you claim you saw at Epstein's house, correct, other than what is right here? 4 5 A. I guess, yeah. 6 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. I'm looking -- I don't know what I'm looking at and where you're reading from. 9 10 THE COURT: I think at this point you can close and you can ask the question again just from her memory. Go ahead. 11 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 13 Q. What you told the FBI in 2007 was that you saw an older lady with short black hair and an unknown accent, and that's all you told them at the time; correct? 14 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Thank you. 18 Now, you went in and Ms. Roberts led you upstairs; correct? 19 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. She knew where to go; correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. She instructed you to rub Mr. Epstein's legs; correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And she rubbed his back; correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013182 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 169 of 264 1607 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Thank you. 3 Okay. You didn't say anything else about the person that you claim you saw at Epstein's house, correct, other than what is right here? 4 5 A. I guess, yeah. 6 7 Q. Okay. 8 A. I'm looking -- I don't know what I'm looking at and where you're reading from. 9 10 THE COURT: I think at this point you can close and you can ask the question again just from her memory. Go ahead. 11 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 13 Q. What you told the FBI in 2007 was that you saw an older lady with short black hair and an unknown accent, and that's all you told them at the time; correct? 14 15 A. Yes. 16 17 Q. Thank you. 18 Now, you went in and Ms. Roberts led you upstairs; correct? 19 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. She knew where to go; correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. She instructed you to rub Mr. Epstein's legs; correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And she rubbed his back; correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018767 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 170 of 264 1608 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 A. Yes, but when we -- can you back up for a second? Because when we first -- 2 THE COURT: Could you talk into the mic. 3 A. When we first walked in is when Maxwell introduced herself to me. 4 Q. You didn't tell that to the FBI in 2007, did you? 5 A. No, I did not. 6 Q. Thank you. 7 So you went upstairs and Ms. Roberts directed you to rub Epstein's legs while she rubbed his back; correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Then Epstein told you to take off your shirt and your pants; correct? 10 A. Not at the first time, no. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can show the witness again 3505-005, page 1, fourth paragraph -- no, fifth paragraph, middle of the paragraph. 12 Isn't it true that you told the FBI, Epstein stated to Carolyn, take off your shirt and take off your pants? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. And then you told the FBI, Virginia got naked and Carolyn undressed to her bra and panties, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And it's after that that Virginia Roberts, who's 18 at this time, has sex with Mr. Epstein in front of you; correct? 17 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013183 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 170 of 264 1608 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 A. Yes, but when we -- can you back up for a second? Because when we first -- 3 THE COURT: Could you talk into the mic. 4 A. When we first walked in is when Maxwell introduced herself to me. 5 6 Q. You didn't tell that to the FBI in 2007, did you? 7 A. No, I did not. 8 Q. Thank you. 9 So you went upstairs and Ms. Roberts directed you to rub Epstein's legs while she rubbed his back; correct? 10 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Then Epstein told you to take off your shirt and your pants; correct? 13 14 A. Not at the first time, no. 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can show the witness again 3505-005, page 1, fourth paragraph -- no, fifth paragraph, 16 middle of the paragraph. 17 18 Isn't it true that you told the FBI, Epstein stated to Carolyn, take off your shirt and take off your pants? 19 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. And then you told the FBI, Virginia got naked and Carolyn undressed to her bra and panties, right? 22 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And it's after that that Virginia Roberts, who's 18 at this time, has sex with Mr. Epstein in front of you; correct? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018768 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 171 of 264 1609 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. And that's while you sat on a couch; correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And they were looking at you while you were sitting on a couch; correct? 5 6 A. No, they were not looking at me. 7 Q. Okay. Epstein paid you $300 directly to you; correct? 8 A. It was on the sink, but yes. 9 Q. It was from Mr. Epstein to you; correct? 10 A. I -- I don't know who it was from. It was just laying there. Anybody could have put it there. 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: Again, if we can show the witness 3505-005, page 2, paragraph 1. 14 Q. The second to the last sentence: Epstein paid Carolyn $300 at the end of the massage. Do you see that? 15 16 A. Yeah, I see that. 17 (Continued on next page) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013184 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 171 of 264 1609 LC7VMAX5 Carolyn - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. And that's while you sat on a couch; correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And they were looking at you while you were sitting on a couch; correct? 5 A. No, they were not looking at me. 6 Q. Okay. Epstein paid you $300 directly to you; correct? 7 A. It was on the sink, but yes. 8 Q. It was from Mr. Epstein to you; correct? 9 A. I -- I don't know who it was from. It was just laying there. Anybody could have put it there. 10 MR. PAGLIUCA: Again, if we can show the witness 11 3505-005, page 2, paragraph 1. 12 Q. The second to the last sentence: Epstein paid Carolyn $300 at the end of the massage. Do you see that? 13 A. Yeah, I see that. 14 (Continued on next page) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018769 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 172 of 264 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. That's what you told the FBI in 2007; correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. You then left the house with Ms. Roberts after 4 Mr. Epstein paid you $300; is that correct? 5 A. Yes, we left after. 6 Q. And then after you left, isn't it true that you got 7 Mr. Epstein's phone number from the phonebook? 8 A. No. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: We're going to show the witness, 10 please, 3505-005, page 2, third paragraph, first sentence. 11 Q. Isn't it true that you told the FBI, in 2007, "Carolyn 12 obtained Epstein's phone number from a telephone book." Do you 13 see that? 14 A. Yeah, the telephone book that you're talking about was my 15 personal book. It wasn't like a phonebook. 16 Q. Well, what you told the FBI -- 17 A. It was a telephone book with my personal numbers of friends 18 and loved ones. 19 Q. And you called to schedule a massage session by leaving a 20 message with Sarah. Do you see that? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And then Epstein returned your call; correct? 23 A. It was not Epstein who called me. 24 Q. Well, isn't it true -- 25 A. It was someone in Epstein's house that called me. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013185 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 172 of 264 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. That's what you told the FBI in 2007; correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. You then left the house with Ms. Roberts after 4 Mr. Epstein paid you $300; is that correct? 5 A. Yes, we left after. 6 Q. And then after you left, isn't it true that you got 7 Mr. Epstein's phone number from the phonebook? 8 A. No. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: We're going to show the witness, 10 please, 3505-005, page 2, third paragraph, first sentence. 11 Q. Isn't it true that you told the FBI, in 2007, "Carolyn 12 obtained Epstein's phone number from a telephone book." Do you 13 see that? 14 A. Yeah, the telephone book that you're talking about was my 15 personal book. It wasn't like a phonebook. 16 Q. Well, what you told the FBI -- 17 A. It was a telephone book with my personal numbers of friends 18 and loved ones. 19 Q. And you called to schedule a massage session by leaving a 20 message with Sarah. Do you see that? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And then Epstein returned your call; correct? 23 A. It was not Epstein who called me. 24 Q. Well, isn't it true -- 25 A. It was someone in Epstein's house that called me. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018770 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 173 of 264 1611 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross Q. Isn't it true that, in 2007, you told the FBI that Epstein returned Carolyn's call? A. I see that it says that, yes, but I don't -- at the time, the way that it's worded is not that Jeffrey Epstein himself called me. Q. Well, there is not a different name is there? It says Epstein returned Carolyn's call? MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor. A. No. Yes, that's what it says, but it wasn't Epstein himself. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. Then there was a second visit that you had shortly after you returning Mr. Epstein's call to schedule this second visit; correct? A. I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question. Q. Yes. You scheduled a second visit with Mr. Epstein after he returned your call; correct? A. I made an appointment to meet with Mr. Epstein again after I got a phone call. Q. And then your boyfriend, Sean, drove you; correct? A. Yes. Q. And Sean waited in the car; is that right? A. Yes. Q. And this second visit, first you sat in the kitchen and talked to the chef; correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013186 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 173 of 264 1611 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. Isn't it true that, in 2007, you told the FBI that Epstein returned Carolyn's call? 2 A. I see that it says that, yes, but I don't -- at the time, 3 the way that it's worded is not that Jeffrey Epstein himself 4 called me. 5 Q. Well, there is not a different name is there? It says 6 Epstein returned Carolyn's call? 7 MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor. 8 A. No. Yes, that's what it says, but it wasn't Epstein 9 himself. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 Q. Then there was a second visit that you had shortly after 12 you returning Mr. Epstein's call to schedule this second visit; 13 correct? 14 A. I'm sorry. Can you repeat the question. 15 Q. Yes. You scheduled a second visit with Mr. Epstein after 16 he returned your call; correct? 17 A. I made an appointment to meet with Mr. Epstein again after 18 I got a phone call. 19 Q. And then your boyfriend, Sean, drove you; correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And Sean waited in the car; is that right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And this second visit, first you sat in the kitchen and 24 talked to the chef; correct? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018771 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 174 of 264 1612 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 A. I don't recall if it was the second visit or a couple into going there. 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: We can show the witness 005, page 2, paragraph 4, please. 5 Q. Isn't it true that, in 2007 -- 6 MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor. Isn't this refreshing recollection at this point? 8 THE COURT: Yes. If you want to point her to the paragraph and make it larger, that's fine. 10 MR. PAGLIUCA: Sure. Fourth paragraph, please enlarge that. 12 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 13 Q. Have you had a chance to look at the fourth paragraph? 14 A. I'm reading it right now, sir. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. Does reading that paragraph refresh your recollection that you told the FBI that you sat in the kitchen and the chef asked if you were hungry? 18 19 20 A. You might be wrong on the paragraph you had me read. It mentioned nothing about a chef. It mentioned about me taking 21 22 off my panties to get $400. 23 Q. We should be at 005, page 2, paragraph 4. 24 THE COURT: You mean the fourth full paragraph? 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: Correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013187 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 174 of 264 1612 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 A. I don't recall if it was the second visit or a couple into going there. 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: We can show the witness 005, page 2, paragraph 4, please. 5 Q. Isn't it true that, in 2007 -- 6 MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor. Isn't this refreshing recollection at this point? 8 THE COURT: Yes. If you want to point her to the paragraph and make it larger, that's fine. 10 MR. PAGLIUCA: Sure. Fourth paragraph, please enlarge that. 12 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 13 Q. Have you had a chance to look at the fourth paragraph? 14 A. I'm reading it right now, sir. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. Does reading that paragraph refresh your recollection that you told the FBI that you sat in the kitchen and the chef asked if you were hungry? 19 20 A. You might be wrong on the paragraph you had me read. It mentioned nothing about a chef. It mentioned about me taking 21 22 off my panties to get $400. 23 Q. We should be at 005, page 2, paragraph 4. 24 THE COURT: You mean the fourth full paragraph? 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: Correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018772 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 175 of 264 1613 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: That's not what was said. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm sorry. The fourth line down beginning with "She." 3 4 THE COURT: That's not there. 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: 3505-005, page 2. 6 THE WITNESS: You're wrong. 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm looking at a paper copy. 8 THE COURT: Why don't you look at your paralegal's screen and make sure you're directing to the right paragraph, please. 9 10 11 I think you mean the third full paragraph. Is that what you're looking for? 12 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, the third full paragraph. 14 THE COURT: All right. We have that now. 15 Question? 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. I was waiting for the witness to finish. 17 18 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 19 Q. Carolyn, does that refresh your memory that that's what you told the FBI in 2007, that you sat in the kitchen and the chef asked if you were hungry? 20 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Isn't it also true that on that second visit, Sarah was there and led you upstairs? 23 24 A. I wasn't led upstairs by anybody. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013188 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 175 of 264 1613 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: That's not what was said. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm sorry. The fourth line down beginning with "She." 3 THE COURT: That's not there. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: 3505-005, page 2. 5 THE WITNESS: You're wrong. 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm looking at a paper copy. 7 THE COURT: Why don't you look at your paralegal's screen and make sure you're directing to the right paragraph, please. 8 I think you mean the third full paragraph. Is that what you're looking for? 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, the third full paragraph. 10 THE COURT: All right. We have that now. 11 Question? 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. I was waiting for the witness to finish. 13 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 14 Q. Carolyn, does that refresh your memory that that's what you told the FBI in 2007, that you sat in the kitchen and the chef asked if you were hungry? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Isn't it also true that on that second visit, Sarah was there and led you upstairs? 17 A. I wasn't led upstairs by anybody. 18 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018773 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 176 of 264 1614 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. Sarah was there to greet you? 2 A. The second time I had gone to Epstein's residence, Maxwell greeted me. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can direct the witness back to the third paragraph, starting with the word "Sarah" after the word "Hungry." 7 THE WITNESS: I see what you're saying. 8 Q. Does this refresh your recollection that, in 2007, you told the FBI that Sarah was there and led her - meaning you - upstairs? 11 A. A lot of it runs together because I had gone there so many times. So I'm a little confused on the timing, because the second time I went to his residence, I did not see Sarah. 14 Q. So isn't it true, though, that that's what you told the FBI in 2007? 16 A. Obviously, because it's here. 17 Q. And you also told them, in 2007, that Sarah placed towels on the massage table; correct? 19 A. Yes, that's what it states. 20 Q. And at this second time, there is no one else there that you have told the FBI about, other than Sarah and Mr. Epstein; correct? 23 A. Yes. Maxwell was not brought up. 24 Q. It's also true that Sarah was the person who would call you from New York to schedule massages; correct? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013189 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 176 of 264 1614 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. Sarah was there to greet you? 2 A. The second time I had gone to Epstein's residence, Maxwell greeted me. 3 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can direct the witness back to 5 the third paragraph, starting with the word "Sarah" after the 6 word "Hungry." 7 THE WITNESS: I see what you're saying. 8 Q. Does this refresh your recollection that, in 2007, you told 9 the FBI that Sarah was there and led her - meaning you - 10 upstairs? 11 A. A lot of it runs together because I had gone there so many 12 times. So I'm a little confused on the timing, because the 13 second time I went to his residence, I did not see Sarah. 14 Q. So isn't it true, though, that that's what you told the FBI 15 in 2007? 16 A. Obviously, because it's here. 17 Q. And you also told them, in 2007, that Sarah placed towels 18 on the massage table; correct? 19 A. Yes, that's what it states. 20 Q. And at this second time, there is no one else there that 21 you have told the FBI about, other than Sarah and Mr. Epstein; 22 correct? 23 A. Yes. Maxwell was not brought up. 24 Q. It's also true that Sarah was the person who would call you 25 from New York to schedule massages; correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018774 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 177 of 264 1615 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 A. It wasn't only Sarah, no. 2 Q. If you can look at the next paragraph, 005, page 2, second paragraph from the bottom. 3 A. Question. 4 Q. Does this refresh your memory that Sarah would call you from New York to schedule a massage appointment for Epstein? 5 A. On some occasions, yes. 6 Q. Ms. Maxwell's name does not appear in that paragraph; correct? 7 A. We were not talking about Ms. Maxwell in 2007. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. So this has nothing to do with -- 10 Q. Now, in this entire first discussion with the FBI in 2007, 11 it's true that you never said the name, Ghislaine Maxwell, once; correct? 12 A. Yes, because it's not who we were talking about. 13 Q. So is it your testimony that the FBI limited your ability to talk in some fashion? 14 A. She was not the subject of the discussion. 15 Q. You talked about Virginia Roberts, you talked about Sarah, you talked about Sean, you talked about Epstein, you talked about a cook, you talked about going there, and you never mentioned Maxwell once; correct? 16 A. Correct, because she was not topic of what they were asking me. It had nothing to do with her at the time. But, yes, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013190 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 177 of 264 1615 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 A. It wasn't only Sarah, no. 2 Q. If you can look at the next paragraph, 005, page 2, second paragraph from the bottom. 3 A. Question. 4 Q. Does this refresh your memory that Sarah would call you from New York to schedule a massage appointment for Epstein? 5 A. On some occasions, yes. 6 Q. Ms. Maxwell's name does not appear in that paragraph; correct? 7 A. We were not talking about Ms. Maxwell in 2007. 8 Q. Okay. 9 A. So this has nothing to do with -- 10 Q. Now, in this entire first discussion with the FBI in 2007, 11 it's true that you never said the name, Ghislaine Maxwell, once; correct? 12 A. Yes, because it's not who we were talking about. 13 Q. So is it your testimony that the FBI limited your ability to talk in some fashion? 14 A. She was not the subject of the discussion. 15 Q. You talked about Virginia Roberts, you talked about Sarah, you talked about Sean, you talked about Epstein, you talked about a cook, you talked about going there, and you never mentioned Maxwell once; correct? 16 A. Correct, because she was not topic of what they were asking me. It had nothing to do with her at the time. But, yes, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018775 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 178 of 264 1616 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross several occasions, she was there, but I was not asked about her. Q. You gave other information to the FBI about Sarah. Do you recall that? A. What kind -- what's the information? Q. Do you recall telling the FBI that Sarah called you from New York to tell you about the Incubus tickets? A. I believe it was Epstein who called me about the Incubus tickets. MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can direct the witness to 005, page 3, paragraph 5, the second to last sentence. THE WITNESS: What about it? Q. Does this refresh your memory that you told the FBI, in 2007, that Sarah called Carolyn to inform her that Epstein left the concert tickets for her? A. Yes. Q. And it was Sarah who called you to tell you that Epstein wanted to take photographs of you; correct? A. What does that have to do with what I'm reading? MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I think the document may still be up for the witness. THE COURT: Okay. Shut the document. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I would ask that, at the end of each question about a document, the document be brought down. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013191 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 178 of 264 1616 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross several occasions, she was there, but I was not asked about her. Q. You gave other information to the FBI about Sarah. Do you recall that? A. What kind -- what's the information? Q. Do you recall telling the FBI that Sarah called you from New York to tell you about the Incubus tickets? A. I believe it was Epstein who called me about the Incubus tickets. MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can direct the witness to 005, page 3, paragraph 5, the second to last sentence. THE WITNESS: What about it? Q. Does this refresh your memory that you told the FBI, in 2007, that Sarah called Carolyn to inform her that Epstein left the concert tickets for her? A. Yes. Q. And it was Sarah who called you to tell you that Epstein wanted to take photographs of you; correct? A. What does that have to do with what I'm reading? MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I think the document may still be up for the witness. THE COURT: Okay. Shut the document. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I would ask that, at the end of each question about a document, the document be brought down. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018776 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 179 of 264 1617 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 THE WITNESS: I'm getting confused. 2 THE COURT: Then do that. 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: We'll do that, your Honor. 4 May I re-ask the question, your Honor? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 7 Q. It was Sarah who called you to tell you -- 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. -- that Epstein wanted to take photographs of you; correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you left Florida in 2003 to go to Georgia; correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Now I want to talk about the lawsuit that you filed -- 14 A. What does that have to do with me going to Georgia? 15 Q. I'm changing the question here. Okay? 16 You filed a lawsuit against Epstein and Sarah Kellen in 2008; correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You had lawyers. One of your lawyers was a man named Jack Scarola; correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Mr. Scarola is still your lawyer; correct? 21 A. I don't believe so. 22 Q. Mr. Scarola represented you in your claim with the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund; correct? 23 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013192 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 179 of 264 1617 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 THE WITNESS: I'm getting confused. 2 THE COURT: Then do that. 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: We'll do that, your Honor. 4 May I re-ask the question, your Honor? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 7 Q. It was Sarah who called you to tell you -- 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. -- that Epstein wanted to take photographs of you; correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you left Florida in 2003 to go to Georgia; correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Now I want to talk about the lawsuit that you filed -- 14 A. What does that have to do with me going to Georgia? 15 Q. I'm changing the question here. Okay? 16 You filed a lawsuit against Epstein and Sarah Kellen in 2008; correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You had lawyers. One of your lawyers was a man named Jack Scarola; correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Mr. Scarola is still your lawyer; correct? 21 A. I don't believe so. 22 Q. Mr. Scarola represented you in your claim with the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund; correct? 23 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018777 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 180 of 264 1618 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And you also had a lawyer in 2008 named Richard Willits. 3 Do you remember Mr. Willits? 4 A. Yes, I do. 5 Q. The lawsuits that were filed in 2008 were after your first 6 discussion with the FBI in 2007; correct? 7 A. I'm not sure. 8 Q. Well, you met with the FBI in 2007 and then there was a 9 lawsuit in 2008; right? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. And before the lawsuits were filed, you had lawyers; right? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And you had meetings with lawyers about the lawsuits? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And based on those meetings, you filed not one, but two 16 civil complaints. Do you recall that? 17 A. I -- yeah. 18 Q. I want to talk about the second civil complaint first. 19 First, you read that complaint before it was filed. 20 Do you recall that? 21 A. I don't recall. 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can direct the witness to 23 3505-043, page 41, deposition page 157, lines 18 through 25. 24 If we can blow that up for the witness and the Court, please. 25 THE COURT: Okay. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013193 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 180 of 264 1618 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And you also had a lawyer in 2008 named Richard Willits. 3 Do you remember Mr. Willits? 4 A. Yes, I do. 5 Q. The lawsuits that were filed in 2008 were after your first 6 discussion with the FBI in 2007; correct? 7 A. I'm not sure. 8 Q. Well, you met with the FBI in 2007 and then there was a 9 lawsuit in 2008; right? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. And before the lawsuits were filed, you had lawyers; right? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And you had meetings with lawyers about the lawsuits? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And based on those meetings, you filed not one, but two 16 civil complaints. Do you recall that? 17 A. I -- yeah. 18 Q. I want to talk about the second civil complaint first. 19 First, you read that complaint before it was filed. 20 Do you recall that? 21 A. I don't recall. 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can direct the witness to 23 3505-043, page 41, deposition page 157, lines 18 through 25. 24 If we can blow that up for the witness and the Court, please. 25 THE COURT: Okay. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018778 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 181 of 264 1619 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 2 Q. Do you recall testifying in your deposition, under oath? 3 A. Yes. 4 THE COURT: You can leave it up for reading the 5 question. 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Go ahead. 8 Q. You were asked: 9 "Q. Did you read the complaint before it was filed? 10 "A. Yeah, I read the complaint. 11 "Q. Did you -- when you read the complaint, did you notice 12 there was anything missing from it? 13 "A. No, I trust my attorneys. That's why they're my 14 attorneys." 15 Correct? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. And moving on to the next question on the same page: 18 "Q. Did you tell anyone, your lawyers or anybody -- 19 THE COURT: Just a second. 20 MR. PAGLIUCA: That question was objected to, your 21 Honor, so I'm not going to read it. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 Q. The complaint that you filed in federal court was not 24 against Ms. Maxwell; correct? 25 A. Correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013194 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 181 of 264 1619 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 2 Q. Do you recall testifying in your deposition, under oath? 3 A. Yes. 4 THE COURT: You can leave it up for reading the 5 question. 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Go ahead. 8 Q. You were asked: 9 "Q. Did you read the complaint before it was filed? 10 "A. Yeah, I read the complaint. 11 "Q. Did you -- when you read the complaint, did you notice 12 there was anything missing from it? 13 "A. No, I trust my attorneys. That's why they're my 14 attorneys." 15 Correct? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. And moving on to the next question on the same page: 18 "Q. Did you tell anyone, your lawyers or anybody -- 19 THE COURT: Just a second. 20 MR. PAGLIUCA: That question was objected to, your 21 Honor, so I'm not going to read it. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 Q. The complaint that you filed in federal court was not 24 against Ms. Maxwell; correct? 25 A. Correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 182 of 264 1620 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't hear the answer. 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. The complaint didn't mention Ms. Maxwell's name; correct? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. The complaint was 91 pages with 209 paragraphs. Do you remember that? 6 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And not one paragraph had the word "Maxwell" in it; correct? 9 10 A. Correct. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: I would like to show the witness and 12 the Court first Exhibit C4. I provided the government a copy 13 of this exhibit. 14 THE WITNESS: Is it in the binder? 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: It's in the smaller binder. We can put 16 it on the screen, if that's easier. 17 THE WITNESS: What's the number? 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: C4. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 THE COURT: Question. 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. 22 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 23 Q. This complaint was filed by Mr. Willits on your behalf in 24 state court. Do you recall that? If you look at page 3, 25 Mr. Willits' signature is there. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013195 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 182 of 264 1620 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't hear the answer. 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. The complaint didn't mention Ms. Maxwell's name; correct? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. The complaint was 91 pages with 209 paragraphs. Do you remember that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And not one paragraph had the word "Maxwell" in it; correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 10 MR. PAGLIUCA: I would like to show the witness and 11 the Court first Exhibit C4. I provided the government a copy 12 of this exhibit. 13 14 THE WITNESS: Is it in the binder? 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: It's in the smaller binder. We can put 16 it on the screen, if that's easier. 17 THE WITNESS: What's the number? 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: C4. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 THE COURT: Question. 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. 22 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 23 Q. This complaint was filed by Mr. Willits on your behalf in 24 state court. Do you recall that? If you look at page 3, 25 Mr. Willits' signature is there. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018780 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 183 of 264 1621 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 A. I might be in the wrong -- 2 THE COURT: Could you pull up to the microphone, please, Carolyn. 3 4 A. I might be in the wrong binder. Is it this one? 5 Q. It should have -- yes, I think that's the one, and it 6 should be at C -- 7 THE COURT: Well, there is no C. I think you mean tab 8 4? 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, tab 4, which is going to be 10 Exhibit C4. 11 A. That has to do with me being arrested -- 12 THE COURT: Just a moment. Just a moment. It's not 13 what I have in my binder. 14 MR. PAGLIUCA: Can we pull up C4 electronically, 15 please. 16 Q. , if you put that one down and we have the 17 exhibit on the screen in front of you. 18 A. Yes. It's also in the binder on the next page. 19 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, can we approach? 20 (Continued on next page) 21 (Pages 1622 to 1624 SEALED) 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013196 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 183 of 264 1621 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 A. I might be in the wrong -- THE COURT: Could you pull up to the microphone, please, Carolyn. A. I might be in the wrong binder. Is it this one? Q. It should have -- yes, I think that's the one, and it should be at C -- THE COURT: Well, there is no C. I think you mean tab 4? MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, tab 4, which is going to be Exhibit C4. A. That has to do with me being arrested -- THE COURT: Just a moment. Just a moment. It's not what I have in my binder. MR. PAGLIUCA: Can we pull up C4 electronically, please. Q. ____, if you put that one down and we have the exhibit on the screen in front of you. A. Yes. It's also in the binder on the next page. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, can we approach? (Continued on next page) (Pages 1622 to 1624 SEALED) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018781 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 184 of 264 1625 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 (In open court) 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: May I resume your Honor? 3 THE COURT: You may. 4 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 5 Q. Carolyn, we were talking about the exhibit that was up on the screen which is the -- 6 7 THE COURT: It's not up there. Go ahead. 8 Q. The complaint filed by Mr. Willits in state court regarding Jeffrey Epstein and Sarah Kellen. Do you see that? 9 10 A. Yes, I do. Yes. 11 Q. And this was the complaint that was filed originally in 2008 on your behalf against those two individuals; correct? 12 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. PAGLIUCA: Did the witness say yes, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 17 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm going to move for the admission of C4, your Honor. 18 19 MS. COMEY: I'm going to object, your Honor. Not inconsistent. 20 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: I didn't hear the objection. 22 MS. COMEY: I would object, your Honor. It's not 23 inconsistent. 24 THE COURT: I'll sustain. 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: Can we have a sidebar, your Honor? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013197 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 184 of 264 1625 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 (In open court) 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: May I resume your Honor? 3 THE COURT: You may. 4 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 5 Q. Carolyn, we were talking about the exhibit that was up on the screen which is the -- 6 7 THE COURT: It's not up there. Go ahead. 8 Q. The complaint filed by Mr. Willits in state court regarding Jeffrey Epstein and Sarah Kellen. Do you see that? 9 10 A. Yes, I do. Yes. 11 Q. And this was the complaint that was filed originally in 2008 on your behalf against those two individuals; correct? 12 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. PAGLIUCA: Did the witness say yes, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 17 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm going to move for the admission of C4, your Honor. 18 19 MS. COMEY: I'm going to object, your Honor. Not inconsistent. 20 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: I didn't hear the objection. 22 MS. COMEY: I would object, your Honor. It's not 23 inconsistent. 24 THE COURT: I'll sustain. 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: Can we have a sidebar, your Honor? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018782 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 185 of 264 1626 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: We'll take it at the break. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. 3 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 4 Q. Carolyn, I'd like to ask you some questions about Exhibit C5, if we can display that for the witness, please. 5 A. Go ahead 6 Q. Thank you. Carolyn, I want to direct your attention first to paragraph 21 of exhibit -- 11 of Exhibit C5. 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. This was the complaint that you reviewed with your lawyers and testified under oath that it was complete and accurate; correct? 9 A. It wasn't accurate. 10 Q. That's what you testified to under oath; correct? 11 A. Yes, but they had it wrong. 12 Q. Paragraph 11 is a factual claim that you made against Mr. Epstein in that complaint; correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Paragraph 11 does not contain the name "Maxwell," correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I'm going to move for the admission of paragraph 11. 17 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, same objection. 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I can respond -- 19 THE COURT: No, on this one, on paragraph 11, I will 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013198 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 185 of 264 1626 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: We'll take it at the break. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. 3 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 4 Q. Carolyn, I'd like to ask you some questions about Exhibit C5, if we can display that for the witness, please. 5 A. Go ahead 6 Q. Thank you. Carolyn, I want to direct your attention first to paragraph 21 of exhibit -- 11 of Exhibit C5. 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. This was the complaint that you reviewed with your lawyers and testified under oath that it was complete and accurate; correct? 9 A. It wasn't accurate. 10 Q. That's what you testified to under oath; correct? 11 A. Yes, but they had it wrong. 12 Q. Paragraph 11 is a factual claim that you made against Mr. Epstein in that complaint; correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Paragraph 11 does not contain the name "Maxwell," correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I'm going to move for the admission of paragraph 11. 17 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, same objection. 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I can respond -- 19 THE COURT: No, on this one, on paragraph 11, I will 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018783 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 186 of 264 1627 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 overrule. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you. 3 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 4 Q. Paragraph 11 reads: "The plaintiff, Carolyn, was first brought to the defendant, Jeffrey Epstein's mansion..." 5 6 THE COURT: You skipped a word. 7 Q. "...was the first brought to the defendant, Jeffrey Epstein's mansion in late May or early June 2002 when she was 8 9 15 years old and in middle school." 10 A. Correct. I see that it says that, yes. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. But it's inaccurate. 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'd like to show the witness paragraph 14 21 of Exhibit C5. 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. Go ahead. 16 Q. Again, this is a factual statement made by your lawyers in 17 this complaint against Jeffrey Epstein and Sarah Kellen; 18 correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 MR. PAGLIUCA: I move for the admission of paragraph 21 21, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Without objection, you may read it. 23 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 24 Q. This paragraph reads: "In late May or early June of 2002, 25 Carolyn was first introduced to defendant, Jeffrey Epstein. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 186 of 264 1627 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 overrule. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you. 3 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 4 Q. Paragraph 11 reads: "The plaintiff, Carolyn, was first brought to the defendant, Jeffrey Epstein's mansion..." 5 6 THE COURT: You skipped a word. 7 Q. "...was the first brought to the defendant, Jeffrey Epstein's mansion in late May or early June 2002 when she was 8 9 15 years old and in middle school." 10 A. Correct. I see that it says that, yes. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. But it's inaccurate. 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'd like to show the witness paragraph 14 21 of Exhibit C5. 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. Go ahead. 16 Q. Again, this is a factual statement made by your lawyers in 17 this complaint against Jeffrey Epstein and Sarah Kellen; 18 correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 MR. PAGLIUCA: I move for the admission of paragraph 21 21, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Without objection, you may read it. 23 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 24 Q. This paragraph reads: "In late May or early June of 2002, 25 Carolyn was first introduced to defendant, Jeffrey Epstein. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 187 of 264 1628 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 Carolyn was brought to Jeffrey Epstein's residence by a female friend of hers. Carolyn sat on the couch while the female friend took off her own clothes, mounted Jeffrey Epstein, who was wearing only a towel and lying on a table, and performed a sexual act upon Jeffrey Epstein in the presence of Carolyn in exchange for her participation as an observer of Jeffrey Epstein's lewd and insidious conduct. Carolyn was paid $300 by Jeffrey Epstein. 2 Correct? 3 A. That's what it states. 4 Q. Paragraph 27 is another factual paragraph filed by your lawyers in federal court in this lawsuit; correct? 5 A. Sorry? 6 Q. Paragraph 27, could you look at that, please. 7 A. Okay. It's true. 8 MR. PAGLIUCA: I move for the admission of paragraph 27, your Honor. 9 MS. COMEY: No objection. 10 THE COURT: Without objection, you may read 27. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 12 Q. Paragraph 27 says: "Approximately one week after the first incident, Carolyn received a telephone call from Jeffrey Epstein requesting that she return to his residence. On this occasion, Jeffrey Epstein directed Carolyn to undress to her brassier and underwear and to provide him with a massage. At SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013200 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 187 of 264 1628 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 Carolyn was brought to Jeffrey Epstein's residence by a female friend of hers. Carolyn sat on the couch while the female friend took off her own clothes, mounted Jeffrey Epstein, who was wearing only a towel and lying on a table, and performed a sexual act upon Jeffrey Epstein in the presence of Carolyn in exchange for her participation as an observer of Jeffrey Epstein's lewd and insidious conduct. Carolyn was paid $300 by Jeffrey Epstein." Correct? A. That's what it states. Q. Paragraph 27 is another factual paragraph filed by your lawyers in federal court in this lawsuit; correct? A. Sorry? Q. Paragraph 27, could you look at that, please. A. Okay. It's true. MR. PAGLIUCA: I move for the admission of paragraph 27, your Honor. MS. COMEY: No objection. THE COURT: Without objection, you may read 27. MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. Q. Paragraph 27 says: "Approximately one week after the first incident, Carolyn received a telephone call from Jeffrey Epstein requesting that she return to his residence. On this occasion, Jeffrey Epstein directed Carolyn to undress to her brassier and underwear and to provide him with a massage. At SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018785 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 188 of 264 1629 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 the conclusion of the massage, Jeffrey Epstein masturbated himself in Carolyn's presence. Jeffrey Epstein paid Carolyn $300 for this encounter." True? A. True. But what does this have to do -- MR. PAGLIUCA: I'd like to direct the witness's attention to paragraph 33. And this will be the last exemplary, your Honor -- THE COURT: Just ask the question. MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. BY MR. PAGLIUCA: Q. Do you see paragraph 33? A. Yes. Q. And that's another factual paragraph in the complaint against Mr. Epstein, filed in federal court in 2009; correct? A. Yes. Q. And again, that's true? A. Yes. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I would object. It's not inconsistent. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, may I respond? THE COURT: I'm sustaining. Move on. We'll deal with it at the break. MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. I'm going to move for the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013201 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 188 of 264 1629 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 the conclusion of the massage, Jeffrey Epstein masturbated himself in Carolyn's presence. Jeffrey Epstein paid Carolyn $300 for this encounter." True? A. True. But what does this have to do -- MR. PAGLIUCA: I'd like to direct the witness's attention to paragraph 33. And this will be the last exemplary, your Honor -- THE COURT: Just ask the question. MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. BY MR. PAGLIUCA: Q. Do you see paragraph 33? A. Yes. Q. And that's another factual paragraph in the complaint against Mr. Epstein, filed in federal court in 2009; correct? A. Yes. Q. And again, that's true? A. Yes. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I would object. It's not inconsistent. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, may I respond? THE COURT: I'm sustaining. Move on. We'll deal with it at the break. MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. I'm going to move for the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018786 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 189 of 264 1630 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross admission of paragraph 33, your Honor. MS. COMEY: Same objection. THE COURT: Sustained. We'll take it up at the break. MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. BY MR. PAGLIUCA: Q. Carolyn, this complaint repeats these same paragraphs against Mr. Epstein two times per month up to August 2003. Do you recall that? A. I do not recall. MR. PAGLIUCA: I'd like to show the witness paragraph 206. THE WITNESS: Okay. Q. Paragraph 206 is a factual complaint against Sarah Kellen. Do you see that? A. Yes, I do. Q. And again, that was reviewed by you prior to it being filed in federal court by your lawyers; correct? A. Um, what was the question, if it was correct? Q. You reviewed this prior to it being filed in federal court by your lawyers, correct, and approved it? A. I did not. Q. Do you recall me asking you questions about your testimony under oath earlier? A. I do. Q. And you agreed that you gave that testimony under oath in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013202 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 189 of 264 1630 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross admission of paragraph 33, your Honor. MS. COMEY: Same objection. THE COURT: Sustained. We'll take it up at the break. MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. BY MR. PAGLIUCA: Q. Carolyn, this complaint repeats these same paragraphs against Mr. Epstein two times per month up to August 2003. Do you recall that? A. I do not recall. MR. PAGLIUCA: I'd like to show the witness paragraph 206. THE WITNESS: Okay. Q. Paragraph 206 is a factual complaint against Sarah Kellen. Do you see that? A. Yes, I do. Q. And again, that was reviewed by you prior to it being filed in federal court by your lawyers; correct? A. Um, what was the question, if it was correct? Q. You reviewed this prior to it being filed in federal court by your lawyers, correct, and approved it? A. I did not. Q. Do you recall me asking you questions about your testimony under oath earlier? A. I do. Q. And you agreed that you gave that testimony under oath in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018787 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 190 of 264 1631 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 2009; correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Are you disagreeing with that now? 4 A. Yes. 5 THE COURT: I think the witness is looking at the paragraph. So clarify the question. 6 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. 8 Q. Isn't this paragraph 206 of the complaint that you agreed you reviewed and agreed with; correct? 9 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. This paragraph does not contain the name Ghislaine Maxwell; correct? 12 13 A. Correct. 14 MR. PAGLIUCA: I move for the admission of paragraph 206, your Honor. 15 16 MS. COMEY: Same objection, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 Q. Paragraph 207, again, this paragraph deals with Sarah Kellen; correct? 19 20 A. I don't believe that it was to engage me in prostitution, no. 21 22 Q. My question is, is this a paragraph of the complaint that was approved -- 23 24 A. Yes. 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: Move for the admission of paragraph SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013203 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 190 of 264 1631 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 2009; correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Are you disagreeing with that now? 4 A. Yes. 5 THE COURT: I think the witness is looking at the paragraph. So clarify the question. 6 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. 8 Q. Isn't this paragraph 206 of the complaint that you agreed you reviewed and agreed with; correct? 9 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. This paragraph does not contain the name Ghislaine Maxwell; correct? 12 13 A. Correct. 14 MR. PAGLIUCA: I move for the admission of paragraph 206, your Honor. 15 16 MS. COMEY: Same objection, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 Q. Paragraph 207, again, this paragraph deals with Sarah Kellen; correct? 19 20 A. I don't believe that it was to engage me in prostitution, no. 21 22 Q. My question is, is this a paragraph of the complaint that was approved -- 23 24 A. Yes. 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: Move for the admission of paragraph SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018788 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 191 of 264 1632 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 207, your Honor. 2 MS. COMEY: Same objection, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: I'll take it at the break. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, there are a number of these that I will address with the Court at the break if that's all right. 5 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 8 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 9 Q. Do you remember, Carolyn, talking to Dr. Hall in connection with this lawsuit? 10 11 A. Who? I'm sorry. Repeat the question. 12 Q. Do you remember talking to -- 13 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Stop. You can close the 14 binder, Carolyn. Thank you. 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: May I, your Honor? 16 THE COURT: You may. 17 Q. Do you remember talking to Dr. Richard Hall for about six and a half hours in connection with this lawsuit at your lawyer's office on October 21st, 2009? 18 19 20 A. I don't have any recollection of that. 21 Q. You have no recollection of meeting with Dr. Hall for six and a half hours on October 21st, 2009? 22 23 A. No. 24 Q. Do you recall telling Dr. Hall that you started seeing Epstein in 2002? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013204 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 191 of 264 1632 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 207, your Honor. 2 MS. COMEY: Same objection, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: I'll take it at the break. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, there are a number of these that I will address with the Court at the break if that's all right. 5 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 8 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 9 Q. Do you remember, Carolyn, talking to Dr. Hall in connection with this lawsuit? 10 11 A. Who? I'm sorry. Repeat the question. 12 Q. Do you remember talking to -- 13 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Stop. You can close the 14 binder, Carolyn. Thank you. 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: May I, your Honor? 16 THE COURT: You may. 17 Q. Do you remember talking to Dr. Richard Hall for about six and a half hours in connection with this lawsuit at your lawyer's office on October 21st, 2009? 18 19 20 A. I don't have any recollection of that. 21 Q. You have no recollection of meeting with Dr. Hall for six and a half hours on October 21st, 2009? 22 23 A. No. 24 Q. Do you recall telling Dr. Hall that you started seeing Epstein in 2002? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018789 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 192 of 264 1633 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. Yes, you do? 3 A. Yes, I do. 4 Q. There were also, in connection with this lawsuit, what are called interrogatories that you answered under oath. Do you recall that? 5 6 A. That what? 7 8 Q. There were documents called interrogatories -- 9 A. I don't know what that -- what those are. 10 Q. They were questions sent by lawyers -- 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. -- to your lawyer for you to answer under oath. Do you recall that? 13 14 A. I didn't -- I don't -- don't know anything about that. 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can show the witness 3505-043, 16 page 5, deposition page 12, lines 23 through 25. 17 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review that, Carolyn? 18 THE COURT: It just came up. 19 A. Yeah. Review -- which numbers am I? 20 Q. Sure. 21 A. The whole thing? 22 Q. You should be looking at page 12, lines 19 through 25. 23 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, is the question whether this 24 refreshes recollection? 25 THE COURT: I think that is the question. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013205 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 192 of 264 1633 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. Yes, you do? 3 A. Yes, I do. 4 Q. There were also, in connection with this lawsuit, what are called interrogatories that you answered under oath. Do you recall that? 5 6 A. That what? 7 Q. There were documents called interrogatories -- 8 A. I don't know what that -- what those are. 9 Q. They were questions sent by lawyers -- 10 -- to your lawyer for you to answer under oath. Do you 11 recall that? 12 A. I didn't -- I don't -- don't know anything about that. 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can show the witness 3505-043, 14 page 5, deposition page 12, lines 23 through 25. 15 Q. Have you had an opportunity to review that, Carolyn? 16 THE COURT: It just came up. 17 A. Yeah. Review -- which numbers am I? 18 Q. Sure. 19 A. The whole thing? 20 Q. You should be looking at page 12, lines 19 through 25. 21 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, is the question whether this 22 refreshes recollection? 23 THE COURT: I think that is the question. 24 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018790 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 193 of 264 1634 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 THE WITNESS: I am confused. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: It is. 3 THE WITNESS: Very confused right now. 4 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 5 Q. Well, reviewing those questions and answers, does that refresh your recollection -- 6 A. You want me to read from 8 and 9 to 20 and 20-what? 7 Q. Deposition page 12, on that page. 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. Lines 18 through 25. 10 A. 18 through 25. Like I said, I'm so confused. 11 Okay. I read it. 12 Q. Does that refresh your recollection that you were shown your answers to interrogatories, Mr. Scarola directed you to them, and that you said to Mr. Scarola, this is what me and you did, right, then it should be correct, unless somebody messed with it? 13 MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor. I didn't think that was what -- the witness said she didn't recall. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 Q. Isn't it true that's what you said under oath in 2009? 16 MS. COMEY: A same objection. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 Q. I'd like to show you, Carolyn, the answers to 19 interrogatories that you authored and swore to under oath in 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013206 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 193 of 264 1634 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 THE WITNESS: I am confused. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: It is. 3 THE WITNESS: Very confused right now. 4 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 5 Q. Well, reviewing those questions and answers, does that refresh your recollection -- 6 A. You want me to read from 8 and 9 to 20 and 20-what? 7 Q. Deposition page 12, on that page. 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. Lines 18 through 25. 10 A. 18 through 25. Like I said, I'm so confused. 11 Okay. I read it. 12 Q. Does that refresh your recollection that you were shown your answers to interrogatories, Mr. Scarola directed you to them, and that you said to Mr. Scarola, this is what me and you did, right, then it should be correct, unless somebody messed with it? 13 MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor. I didn't think that was what -- the witness said she didn't recall. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 Q. Isn't it true that's what you said under oath in 2009? 16 MS. COMEY: A same objection. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 Q. I'd like to show you, Carolyn, the answers to 19 interrogatories that you authored and swore to under oath in 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018791 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 194 of 264 1635 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross connection with this lawsuit. Okay? MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can show the witness C8, please. It might be easier to look at C8 in the binder. THE COURT: Last time it wasn't the right exhibit. MR. PAGLIUCA: We can do it on the screen. THE WITNESS: Okay. That's correct. THE COURT: Go ahead. BY MR. PAGLIUCA: Q. Do you have C8? And if you flip to the last page, 19 of 20 on C8. Do you see that's the first part of your -- A. I do. Q. And you signed that under oath; correct? A. Yes, I believe so. That is -- that's my signature, my first name, yes. MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I move for the admission of C8. MS. COMEY: Same objection, your Honor. THE COURT: We'll take it up at the break. MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm going to have the same request, your Honor, as to C9, which we'll take up at the break, I assume? THE COURT: Yes. MR. PAGLIUCA: Would you like to take the break now? THE COURT: Do you have other matters? MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor, I have further cross SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013207 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 194 of 264 1635 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross connection with this lawsuit. Okay? MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can show the witness C8, please. It might be easier to look at C8 in the binder. THE COURT: Last time it wasn't the right exhibit. MR. PAGLIUCA: We can do it on the screen. THE WITNESS: Okay. That's correct. THE COURT: Go ahead. BY MR. PAGLIUCA: Q. Do you have C8? And if you flip to the last page, 19 of 20 on C8. Do you see that's the first part of your -- A. I do. Q. And you signed that under oath; correct? A. Yes, I believe so. That is -- that's my signature, my first name, yes. MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I move for the admission of C8. MS. COMEY: Same objection, your Honor. THE COURT: We'll take it up at the break. MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm going to have the same request, your Honor, as to C9, which we'll take up at the break, I assume? THE COURT: Yes. MR. PAGLIUCA: Would you like to take the break now? THE COURT: Do you have other matters? MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor, I have further cross SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018792 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 195 of 264 1636 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross examination of this witness. THE COURT: We'll break. Members of the jury, for the afternoon break, we'll see you in about 15 minutes. (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013208 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 195 of 264 1636 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross examination of this witness. THE COURT: We'll break. Members of the jury, for the afternoon break, we'll see you in about 15 minutes. (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018793 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 196 of 264 1637 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 (Jury not present) 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, should I sit or stand? 3 THE COURT: I don't mind. I just want to hear you. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: C4 was the state complaint, your Honor. 5 And I'm not sure what the objection was. 6 MS. COMEY: The objection was that it is not inconsistent with the witness's testimony, your Honor. I believe your Honor sustained that objection. 9 THE COURT: That's what I'm hearing you on now. 10 Mr. Pagliuca, you're seeking the admission of the whole document? 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: I am, your Honor. Alternatively, the factual paragraphs. This does not have a lot of legalese in it. It didn't seem to be too complicated to me. 15 THE COURT: Okay. So let's pick up the first factual paragraph. 17 So just by way of background, you inquired about this document and asked if Ms. Maxwell is mentioned anywhere in the complaint; correct? 20 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. 21 THE COURT: And the answer to that was no? 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: Correct. 23 THE COURT: So what I think we then need is to take individual statements to determine if there is some inconsistency with the testimony. So point me to the first SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013209 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 196 of 264 1637 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 (Jury not present) 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, should I sit or stand? 3 THE COURT: I don't mind. I just want to hear you. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: C4 was the state complaint, your Honor. 5 And I'm not sure what the objection was. 6 MS. COMEY: The objection was that it is not inconsistent with the witness's testimony, your Honor. I believe your Honor sustained that objection. 9 THE COURT: That's what I'm hearing you on now. 10 Mr. Pagliuca, you're seeking the admission of the whole document? 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: I am, your Honor. Alternatively, the factual paragraphs. This does not have a lot of legalese in it. It didn't seem to be too complicated to me. 15 THE COURT: Okay. So let's pick up the first factual paragraph. 17 So just by way of background, you inquired about this document and asked if Ms. Maxwell is mentioned anywhere in the complaint; correct? 20 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. 21 THE COURT: And the answer to that was no? 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: Correct. 23 THE COURT: So what I think we then need is to take individual statements to determine if there is some inconsistency with the testimony. So point me to the first SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018794 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 197 of 264 1638 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 factual inconsistency. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, your Honor, there are two principals at play here. 3 The first is this is what is commonly referred to as impeachment by omission, which is a subset of impeachment by contradiction. Impeachment by omission typically occurs where there is a document or a statement where the witness would likely include whatever is omitted, and this is such a document, and I am seeking to impeach by omission through this document. This is a complaint against two people that this witness claims sexually abused her. It's not only against Epstein, it's against one of Epstein's employees who is highlighted in this complaint. The entire testimony by the government here through this witness has downplayed the role of Sarah Kellen and up-played the role of Ghislaine Maxwell, and it is an impeachment by omission that, in 2008, shortly after being interviewed by the FBI about the same subject matter with counsel, there is no mention of Maxwell in this entire complaint. I think that is significant under the facts of this case. So, I think it is admissible under that theory and there is ample federal law, First Circuit, this circuit, that supports that theory of impeachment by omission. And these factual paragraphs, I believe, are also impeaching of the witness's testimony because it is inconsistent with the things that she has claimed happened to her in addition to these SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013210 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 197 of 264 1638 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 factual inconsistency. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, your Honor, there are two principals at play here. 3 The first is this is what is commonly referred to as impeachment by omission, which is a subset of impeachment by contradiction. Impeachment by omission typically occurs where there is a document or a statement where the witness would likely include whatever is omitted, and this is such a document, and I am seeking to impeach by omission through this document. This is a complaint against two people that this witness claims sexually abused her. It's not only against Epstein, it's against one of Epstein's employees who is highlighted in this complaint. The entire testimony by the government here through this witness has downplayed the role of Sarah Kellen and up-played the role of Ghislaine Maxwell, and it is an impeachment by omission that, in 2008, shortly after being interviewed by the FBI about the same subject matter with counsel, there is no mention of Maxwell in this entire complaint. I think that is significant under the facts of this case. So, I think it is admissible under that theory and there is ample federal law, First Circuit, this circuit, that supports that theory of impeachment by omission. And these factual paragraphs, I believe, are also impeaching of the witness's testimony because it is inconsistent with the things that she has claimed happened to her in addition to these SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018795 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 198 of 264 1639 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross things that are in the complaint. THE COURT: So that's a long way of getting to my -- responding to my first question. MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. THE COURT: What paragraph is inconsistent? MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, the fact that Ms. Maxwell -- THE COURT: Point me to a paragraph. MR. PAGLIUCA: All of the paragraphs, your Honor. THE COURT: On the same theory you just pronounced? MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. THE COURT: So then on your second theory, can you point to any inconsistency? MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, these are all omissions, your Honor, factual. So paragraph 8, for example, the witness has testified now that she was the subject of penetration and intercourse by Epstein. Paragraph 8 does not include that. Paragraph 9, I think, is an expansion. We have only Kellen, often calling -- excuse me. 11A is what I'm looking at. THE COURT: So other than the omission theory, is there an inconsistency you're pointing to? MR. PAGLIUCA: No. THE COURT: Is there any other? I understand your omission theory, I'll hear from Ms. Comey on that in a second, I do have a question for you on it, and I need to read the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013211 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 198 of 264 1639 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross things that are in the complaint. THE COURT: So that's a long way of getting to my -- responding to my first question. MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. THE COURT: What paragraph is inconsistent? MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, the fact that Ms. Maxwell -- THE COURT: Point me to a paragraph. MR. PAGLIUCA: All of the paragraphs, your Honor. THE COURT: On the same theory you just pronounced? MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. THE COURT: So then on your second theory, can you point to any inconsistency? MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, these are all omissions, your Honor, factual. So paragraph 8, for example, the witness has testified now that she was the subject of penetration and intercourse by Epstein. Paragraph 8 does not include that. Paragraph 9, I think, is an expansion. We have only Kellen, often calling -- excuse me. 11A is what I'm looking at. THE COURT: So other than the omission theory, is there an inconsistency you're pointing to? MR. PAGLIUCA: No. THE COURT: Is there any other? I understand your omission theory, I'll hear from Ms. Comey on that in a second, I do have a question for you on it, and I need to read the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018796 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 199 of 264 1640 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross whole thing. Let me just ask. If there were, for example, a paragraph that said these are some of the facts of what occurred, but not all of them, would your omission theory work to get everything in? MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. THE COURT: If there is a few discrepancies? MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. THE COURT: Do you have a case for that proposition? I mean, it's really a factual question whether there is a reasonable inference available from which the jury could conclude that there is an inconsistency by testifying to one thing to inclusion of facts now that were not included previously. MR. PAGLIUCA: I think that's true and it's under the circumstances -- I mean the case law, I can -- I need to pull up my computer to give you the cite here, your Honor, but I'll do that now. THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead, Ms. Comey. MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. I think the theory of omission only works where one would expect that the specific facts that are omitted would be included in the particular statement. This is a lawsuit brought against two defendants and it is containing the core allegations against those two defendants. One would not expect that to include allegations SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013212 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 199 of 264 1640 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross whole thing. Let me just ask. If there were, for example, a paragraph that said these are some of the facts of what occurred, but not all of them, would your omission theory work to get everything in? MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. THE COURT: If there is a few discrepancies? MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. THE COURT: Do you have a case for that proposition? I mean, it's really a factual question whether there is a reasonable inference available from which the jury could conclude that there is an inconsistency by testifying to one thing to inclusion of facts now that were not included previously. MR. PAGLIUCA: I think that's true and it's under the circumstances -- I mean the case law, I can -- I need to pull up my computer to give you the cite here, your Honor, but I'll do that now. THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead, Ms. Comey. MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. I think the theory of omission only works where one would expect that the specific facts that are omitted would be included in the particular statement. This is a lawsuit brought against two defendants and it is containing the core allegations against those two defendants. One would not expect that to include allegations SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018797 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 200 of 264 1641 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross against third parties. I think that's borne out by the substance of the document. Count One only talks about Jeffrey Epstein, the first defendant. Count Two only talks about Sarah Kellen, the second defendant. I think that that makes sense and it wouldn't be expected that Ghislaine Maxwell or anyone else would be included in allegations in a complaint against those two. More broadly, I think defense counsel has already gotten the point that he wants to make across to the jury. He has made very, very clear, repeatedly, that this witness sued Jeffrey Epstein and Sarah Kellen and not Ghislaine Maxwell. They have now heard that she has filed multiple court documents that are lengthy in which the defendant's name is not mentioned. So he has everything he needs to make his impeachment point. At this point, it's cumulative and risks 403 prejudice and confusion of the issues, and a sideshow about a 2009 lawsuit to put in the document itself. He has everything he needs. THE COURT: I think that he has everything he needs goes to the relevance of the contention that the exclusion is there. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I think that the point is that she wasn't included as a defendant. I don't think that it would be expected, especially in a document -- THE COURT: I think it's a redirect point, frankly, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013213 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 200 of 264 1641 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross against third parties. I think that's borne out by the substance of the document. Count One only talks about Jeffrey Epstein, the first defendant. Count Two only talks about Sarah Kellen, the second defendant. I think that that makes sense and it wouldn't be expected that Ghislaine Maxwell or anyone else would be included in allegations in a complaint against those two. More broadly, I think defense counsel has already gotten the point that he wants to make across to the jury. He has made very, very clear, repeatedly, that this witness sued Jeffrey Epstein and Sarah Kellen and not Ghislaine Maxwell. They have now heard that she has filed multiple court documents that are lengthy in which the defendant's name is not mentioned. So he has everything he needs to make his impeachment point. At this point, it's cumulative and risks 403 prejudice and confusion of the issues, and a sideshow about a 2009 lawsuit to put in the document itself. He has everything he needs. THE COURT: I think that he has everything he needs goes to the relevance of the contention that the exclusion is there. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I think that the point is that she wasn't included as a defendant. I don't think that it would be expected, especially in a document -- THE COURT: I think it's a redirect point, frankly, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018798 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 201 of 264 1642 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross counsel. And on a 401, 403, it is already in, it's a document. So it's really a cumulative argument. The point that you want to make, I presume you'll make on redirect. Since the point has already been made, I don't see that there is tremendous prejudice in including the document itself. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, my concern would be that these are crafted by lawyers in order to satisfy the elements of particular causes of action. THE COURT: Right. MS. COMEY: It will confuse the issues and it's not written in a narrative form and it wasn't offered by this witness, and I think it would confuse the issues to start putting these words in that her attorneys wrote. She did not write this. THE COURT: I think those are fine redirect points. We've already established the 401 of the omission, I don't think it causes substantial 403 prejudice, and you're going to make those redirect points in any event. So at least with respect to this document C4, I'm going to overrule the objection. C5, I think might be in a different position. I mean, 206 says, expressly, Kellen is one of defendant Epstein's employees, assistants referenced in paragraph 12. Epstein, Kellen, and others reached an agreement between themselves for the purposes of allowing defendant Epstein to commit the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013214 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 201 of 264 1642 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross counsel. And on a 401, 403, it is already in, it's a document. So it's really a cumulative argument. The point that you want to make, I presume you'll make on redirect. Since the point has already been made, I don't see that there is tremendous prejudice in including the document itself. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, my concern would be that these are crafted by lawyers in order to satisfy the elements of particular causes of action. THE COURT: Right. MS. COMEY: It will confuse the issues and it's not written in a narrative form and it wasn't offered by this witness, and I think it would confuse the issues to start putting these words in that her attorneys wrote. She did not write this. THE COURT: I think those are fine redirect points. We've already established the 401 of the omission, I don't think it causes substantial 403 prejudice, and you're going to make those redirect points in any event. So at least with respect to this document C4, I'm going to overrule the objection. C5, I think might be in a different position. I mean, 206 says, expressly, Kellen is one of defendant Epstein's employees, assistants referenced in paragraph 12. Epstein, Kellen, and others reached an agreement between themselves for the purposes of allowing defendant Epstein to commit the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018799 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 202 of 264 1643 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 illegal acts. And then if you turn back to 12, 12 says, 2 Epstein's a wealthy financier with a lavish home, wealth, a 3 network of assistants and employees used his resource and 4 influence over a vulnerable minor child to engage in a 5 systematic pattern of sexually exploited behavior. 6 I mean, on its terms, it references additional people. 7 And so, on its face, it's not exclusive and I think that puts 8 it in a different position. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, with regard to this 10 exhibit, I was simply offering discrete factual paragraphs. 11 THE COURT: Right. But 206 -- so 206 was the one that 12 we began with. I don't think that paragraph is factually 13 inconsistent with the testimony for precisely the reason I've 14 just indicated. 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: I think we left off with 206. 16 THE COURT: So what's the next paragraph? 17 MR. PAGLIUCA: I mean, I can go through it and tell 18 you all the paragraphs that I'm intending to introduce or 19 ask -- 20 THE COURT: So 206 is not inconsistent. Therefore, 21 the objection is sustained. 22 What's the next paragraph? 23 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, let me look at 206 and hopefully 24 respond to that. 25 THE COURT: That's fine. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013215 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 202 of 264 1643 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 illegal acts. And then if you turn back to 12, 12 says, 2 Epstein's a wealthy financier with a lavish home, wealth, a 3 network of assistants and employees used his resource and 4 influence over a vulnerable minor child to engage in a 5 systematic pattern of sexually exploited behavior. 6 I mean, on its terms, it references additional people. 7 And so, on its face, it's not exclusive and I think that puts 8 it in a different position. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, with regard to this 10 exhibit, I was simply offering discrete factual paragraphs. 11 THE COURT: Right. But 206 -- so 206 was the one that 12 we began with. I don't think that paragraph is factually 13 inconsistent with the testimony for precisely the reason I've 14 just indicated. 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: I think we left off with 206. 16 THE COURT: So what's the next paragraph? 17 MR. PAGLIUCA: I mean, I can go through it and tell 18 you all the paragraphs that I'm intending to introduce or 19 ask -- 20 THE COURT: So 206 is not inconsistent. Therefore, 21 the objection is sustained. 22 What's the next paragraph? 23 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, let me look at 206 and hopefully 24 respond to that. 25 THE COURT: That's fine. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018800 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 203 of 264 1644 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm fine with not admitting that, your 2 Honor. I think that's right. 3 THE COURT: They might want to get that one in. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: I agree with you. 5 THE COURT: What's next? 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, I guess the question -- I'm not 7 sure where we left off, your Honor, because I think we got to 8 about 33, and then we were going to take it up at sidebar. 9 (Continued on next page) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013216 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 203 of 264 1644 LC7Cmax6 Carolyn - cross 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm fine with not admitting that, your 2 Honor. I think that's right. 3 THE COURT: They might want to get that one in. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: I agree with you. 5 THE COURT: What's next? 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, I guess the question -- I'm not 7 sure where we left off, your Honor, because I think we got to 8 about 33, and then we were going to take it up at sidebar. 9 (Continued on next page) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018801 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 204 of 264 1645 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: Okay. Should I look at 33? 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, 33. The first inconsistency with 3 the direct testimony is the date, July of 2002. 4 THE COURT: I don't know -- so again, return to -- 5 what's the inconsistency? 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, the indictment says 2001. In her 7 direct testimony she said 2001, and on the cross-examination, 8 she admitted to 2002. 9 THE COURT: So you have to use a full sentence so I 10 can track you. She said the first incident was in 2001. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. 12 THE COURT: She then talked about 100 additional 13 incidents -- 14 MR. PAGLIUCA: Right. 15 THE COURT: -- over the course of at least a couple of 16 years. So what's inconsistent in July of 2002, she again 17 returned to? 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: This is chronological through this 19 complaint. This complaint goes from -- 2002 is the beginning 20 spot, and goes through 2003. So the entirety of the allegation 21 is that these events occurred between 2002 and 2003, not 2001 22 and 2004. And so this is impeachment on the time frame that is 23 alleged in the indictment and testified to by the witness on 24 direct examination. 25 THE COURT: Is there a paragraph that talks about the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013217 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 204 of 264 1645 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: Okay. Should I look at 33? 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, 33. The first inconsistency with 3 the direct testimony is the date, July of 2002. 4 THE COURT: I don't know -- so again, return to -- 5 what's the inconsistency? 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, the indictment says 2001. In her 7 direct testimony she said 2001, and on the cross-examination, 8 she admitted to 2002. 9 THE COURT: So you have to use a full sentence so I 10 can track you. She said the first incident was in 2001. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. 12 THE COURT: She then talked about 100 additional 13 incidents -- 14 MR. PAGLIUCA: Right. 15 THE COURT: -- over the course of at least a couple of 16 years. So what's inconsistent in July of 2002, she again 17 returned to? 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: This is chronological through this 19 complaint. This complaint goes from -- 2002 is the beginning 20 spot, and goes through 2003. So the entirety of the allegation 21 is that these events occurred between 2002 and 2003, not 2001 22 and 2004. And so this is impeachment on the time frame that is 23 alleged in the indictment and testified to by the witness on 24 direct examination. 25 THE COURT: Is there a paragraph that talks about the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018802 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 205 of 264 1646 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 first couple of incidents, which I think would be, as you're suggesting, time frame inconsistent. 2 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: I think you admitted those already, 4 your Honor. 5 THE COURT: See? I'm consistent. 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: You are. Yes, you are. Yes, you are. 7 The Court admitted paragraph 21, I think, as the -- 21 8 and 27. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. PAGLIUCA: And where we started getting -- 11 THE COURT: 21 and 27. 27 is called incident two. 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: Right. 13 THE COURT: And then 33, I'm not saying an 14 inconsistency. I'll sustain there. 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: 39 -- 16 THE COURT: And to the extent it is, because it could 17 somehow be read as part of a time frame that's off, it's 18 consistent with her -- it falls within the time frame she 19 testified to; it's not specific as to which incident this is. 20 To the extent there's 401 relevance, it's cumulative of the 21 point that you've already gotten in, which is that this -- that 22 the first incident described in this complaint took place in 23 2002, and her testimony is that it took place in 2001. 24 Next. 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: But also to that point, your Honor, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013218 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 205 of 264 1646 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 first couple of incidents, which I think would be, as you're suggesting, time frame inconsistent. 2 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: I think you admitted those already, 4 your Honor. 5 THE COURT: See? I'm consistent. 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: You are. Yes, you are. Yes, you are. 7 The Court admitted paragraph 21, I think, as the -- 21 8 and 27. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. PAGLIUCA: And where we started getting -- 11 THE COURT: 21 and 27. 27 is called incident two. 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: Right. 13 THE COURT: And then 33, I'm not saying an 14 inconsistency. I'll sustain there. 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: 39 -- 16 THE COURT: And to the extent it is, because it could 17 somehow be read as part of a time frame that's off, it's 18 consistent with her -- it falls within the time frame she 19 testified to; it's not specific as to which incident this is. 20 To the extent there's 401 relevance, it's cumulative of the 21 point that you've already gotten in, which is that this -- that 22 the first incident described in this complaint took place in 23 2002, and her testimony is that it took place in 2001. 24 Next. 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: But also to that point, your Honor, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018803 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 206 of 264 1647 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 this is inconsistent because we're not -- we're not talking about 2001, we're talking about 2002. 3 THE COURT: Right. But it doesn't specify -- she testified to incidents like these in 2002, and so it's just not -- tell me how it's inconsistent with that testimony. 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, you know, for the second time in 6 July of 2002 -- 7 THE COURT: No, it doesn't say that. 8 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Paragraph 39 is what I'm looking at. 10 THE COURT: Oh, you told me 33. I am a lot of things, 11 but I am not a mind reader. I sustained on 33. 12 I will go to 39. Go ahead. 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: So for the second time in July of 2002. 14 This is -- 15 THE COURT: I mean, that reads like more than one 16 incident in July of 2002. 17 MR. PAGLIUCA: The second, not a third, not a fourth. 18 THE COURT: For the second time. Okay. 19 MR. PAGLIUCA: And when we get through all of this, 20 the other inconsistency that tracks all of these is there is no 21 allegation of sexual intrusion or penetration. Every single 22 one of these allegations is fondling of breasts and buttocks, 23 every single one. And so we have new testimony about the acts 24 that were allegedly performed. 25 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Comey, do you want to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013219 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 206 of 264 1647 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 this is inconsistent because we're not -- we're not talking about 2001, we're talking about 2002. 3 THE COURT: Right. But it doesn't specify -- she testified to incidents like these in 2002, and so it's just not -- tell me how it's inconsistent with that testimony. 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, you know, for the second time in 6 July of 2002 -- 8 THE COURT: No, it doesn't say that. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Paragraph 39 is what I'm looking at. 10 THE COURT: Oh, you told me 33. I am a lot of things, but I am not a mind reader. I sustained on 33. 12 I will go to 39. Go ahead. 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: So for the second time in July of 2002. 14 This is -- 15 THE COURT: I mean, that reads like more than one incident in July of 2002. 17 MR. PAGLIUCA: The second, not a third, not a fourth. 18 THE COURT: For the second time. Okay. 19 MR. PAGLIUCA: And when we get through all of this, the other inconsistency that tracks all of these is there is no allegation of sexual intrusion or penetration. Every single one of these allegations is fondling of breasts and buttocks, every single one. And so we have new testimony about the acts that were allegedly performed. 25 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Comey, do you want to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018804 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 207 of 264 1648 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross respond to that for paragraph 39? MS. COMEY: So for 39, your Honor, first with respect to the time frame, I think the first clause is for the second time in that month of that year. That's not inconsistent with what the witness testified to. She testified she was going frequently, certainly at least twice a month, through 2002. So that's not inconsistent. With respect to the sex acts, I think here is part of the issue with taking a legal document and trying to suggest that the witness should have included every single detail in it. It is not necessarily the case that in order to make out the legal claims in this complaint, that a lawyer would have needed to include anything other than fondling and masturbation. So it is not to be expected that if she had told her attorneys about the other sex acts, that they would have included it. And so I don't think the theory of omissions works with respect to the sex acts. MR. PAGLIUCA: I disagree, your Honor. THE COURT: Yes, I imagine. MR. PAGLIUCA: I mean, Ms. Comey doesn't do civil work, but it is significant. And it is significant for many reasons. And in particular -- THE COURT: This one, there are details included. The one detail that was testified to is a significant detail. So with respect to 39, I'll overrule. Sorry, I'll sustain. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013220 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 207 of 264 1648 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross respond to that for paragraph 39? MS. COMEY: So for 39, your Honor, first with respect to the time frame, I think the first clause is for the second time in that month of that year. That's not inconsistent with what the witness testified to. She testified she was going frequently, certainly at least twice a month, through 2002. So that's not inconsistent. With respect to the sex acts, I think here is part of the issue with taking a legal document and trying to suggest that the witness should have included every single detail in it. It is not necessarily the case that in order to make out the legal claims in this complaint, that a lawyer would have needed to include anything other than fondling and masturbation. So it is not to be expected that if she had told her attorneys about the other sex acts, that they would have included it. And so I don't think the theory of omissions works with respect to the sex acts. MR. PAGLIUCA: I disagree, your Honor. THE COURT: Yes, I imagine. MR. PAGLIUCA: I mean, Ms. Comey doesn't do civil work, but it is significant. And it is significant for many reasons. And in particular -- THE COURT: This one, there are details included. The one detail that was testified to is a significant detail. So with respect to 39, I'll overrule. Sorry, I'll sustain. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018805 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 208 of 264 1649 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, may I clarify on that? 2 I don't think the witness testified to a particular 3 time frame when the penetration actually took place. And so I 4 don't know that we can say that any particular paragraph is 5 necessarily inconsistent, because I don't think she testified 6 to a time frame. I don't know that she would remember a 7 particular time frame. I think that this could be more readily 8 accomplished to the extent Mr. Pagliuca wants to point out that 9 this complaint does not contain a reference to that particular 10 sex act. I think he can ask her the question. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I think the document itself 12 has value -- 13 THE COURT: You're not moving the whole document. 14 We've established that. So one paragraph at a time. 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: Right. The paragraphs have value -- 16 THE COURT: And you'll respond to Ms. Comey's point 17 that it's only inconsistent if the time frame matches up with 18 the time frame that she's testified as to penetration. 19 Do you have a response to that? 20 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, she testified here that it was 21 more frequent than what's alleged. So that's one problem with 22 the argument from the government. I think she testified here 23 that it was up to four times a week that she was going. And 24 this complaint goes month by month, two times a month. That's 25 what it talks about. That's what this is. So that's another SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013221 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 208 of 264 1649 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, may I clarify on that? 2 I don't think the witness testified to a particular 3 time frame when the penetration actually took place. And so I 4 don't know that we can say that any particular paragraph is 5 necessarily inconsistent, because I don't think she testified 6 to a time frame. I don't know that she would remember a 7 particular time frame. I think that this could be more readily 8 accomplished to the extent Mr. Pagliuca wants to point out that 9 this complaint does not contain a reference to that particular 10 sex act. I think he can ask her the question. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I think the document itself 12 has value -- 13 THE COURT: You're not moving the whole document. 14 We've established that. So one paragraph at a time. 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: Right. The paragraphs have value -- 16 THE COURT: And you'll respond to Ms. Comey's point 17 that it's only inconsistent if the time frame matches up with 18 the time frame that she's testified as to penetration. 19 Do you have a response to that? 20 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, she testified here that it was 21 more frequent than what's alleged. So that's one problem with 22 the argument from the government. I think she testified here 23 that it was up to four times a week that she was going. And 24 this complaint goes month by month, two times a month. That's 25 what it talks about. That's what this is. So that's another SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018806 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 209 of 264 1650 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 inconsistency. I'm not sure where the disconnect is here on 2 the factual inconsistency where there is specific claim of 3 fondling breasts and buttocks. At the conclusion of the 4 massage, Jeffrey Epstein masturbated himself in C presence, 5 paid C in excess of $200 for this encounter, which is also 6 inconsistent with the testimony, which she's claiming 300, up 7 to 600 an encounter. So it's inconsistent. 8 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to overrule on 39 9 and I think Ms. Comey's points are fully available for cross -- 10 sorry, for redirect on this one. 11 The time frame pace is a little difficult to match up 12 exactly given that there is some -- a little bit of a shift -- 13 well, it's hard to know what time frame this is referring to, 14 but I think in light of the witness's testimony, there's an 15 inference available that paragraph 39 falls within the time 16 frame that she talked about, penetrative acts, and that's not 17 included. So I'll allow 39. 18 Next. 19 MR. PAGLIUCA: The same argument for 45, your Honor. 20 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I would just like to clarify 21 that the witness only described one penetrative act on one 22 occasion once. So it cannot be that she's inconsistent if she 23 doesn't mention it in 50 different allegations on 50 different 24 dates. 25 THE COURT: Was that the testimony, that there was SOUTERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013222 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 209 of 264 1650 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 inconsistency. I'm not sure where the disconnect is here on 2 the factual inconsistency where there is specific claim of 3 fondling breasts and buttocks. At the conclusion of the 4 massage, Jeffrey Epstein masturbated himself in C presence, 5 paid C in excess of $200 for this encounter, which is also 6 inconsistent with the testimony, which she's claiming 300, up 7 to 600 an encounter. So it's inconsistent. 8 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to overrule on 39 9 and I think Ms. Comey's points are fully available for cross -- 10 sorry, for redirect on this one. 11 The time frame pace is a little difficult to match up 12 exactly given that there is some -- a little bit of a shift -- 13 well, it's hard to know what time frame this is referring to, 14 but I think in light of the witness's testimony, there's an 15 inference available that paragraph 39 falls within the time 16 frame that she talked about, penetrative acts, and that's not 17 included. So I'll allow 39. 18 Next. 19 MR. PAGLIUCA: The same argument for 45, your Honor. 20 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I would just like to clarify 21 that the witness only described one penetrative act on one 22 occasion once. So it cannot be that she's inconsistent if she 23 doesn't mention it in 50 different allegations on 50 different 24 dates. 25 THE COURT: Was that the testimony, that there was SOUTERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018807 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 210 of 264 1651 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 only a penetrative act once? 2 MS. COMEY: Yes, your Honor. It was the second 3 incident where Jeffrey Epstein brought another female into the 4 room. She testified that he briefly penetrated her twice 5 during that incident. So he inserted his penis into her two 6 times during that one incident and that was it. So it's one 7 incident. 8 THE COURT: Okay. I'm re-persuaded. I'm going to 9 sustain on 39. But you can ask the question about are there 10 any allegations in the complaint regarding penetrative sex, 11 which is as she testified to. 12 Next paragraph. 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: 51. And this is the same -- the same 14 issue. 15 MS. COMEY: And the same objection, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: All right. So I'll sustain on 51. 17 Next. 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: 57. 19 THE COURT: And again, you can ask the question, but 20 it's not, on its face, inconsistent. And I don't think there's 21 an inference available. And to the extent there is, it would 22 be cumulative of the question that you're asking. 23 57. 24 MS. COMEY: Same objection, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013223 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 210 of 264 1651 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 only a penetrative act once? 2 MS. COMEY: Yes, your Honor. It was the second 3 incident where Jeffrey Epstein brought another female into the 4 room. She testified that he briefly penetrated her twice 5 during that incident. So he inserted his penis into her two 6 times during that one incident and that was it. So it's one 7 incident. 8 THE COURT: Okay. I'm re-persuaded. I'm going to 9 sustain on 39. But you can ask the question about are there 10 any allegations in the complaint regarding penetrative sex, 11 which is as she testified to. 12 Next paragraph. 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: 51. And this is the same -- the same 14 issue. 15 MS. COMEY: And the same objection, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: All right. So I'll sustain on 51. 17 Next. 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: 57. 19 THE COURT: And again, you can ask the question, but 20 it's not, on its face, inconsistent. And I don't think there's 21 an inference available. And to the extent there is, it would 22 be cumulative of the question that you're asking. 23 57. 24 MS. COMEY: Same objection, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018808 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 211 of 264 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 I'll sustain on 57 for the same reason. 2 Next. 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: I think I can -- I can just tell you 4 all of them, your Honor, which are going to be the same. 5 THE COURT: If they are all on that same theory, then 6 you can make the record. If there's any different theory of 7 inconsistency, either as to the specific time frame and 8 testimony or to some different inference available, I'll hear 9 it. But otherwise just make the record with respect to the 10 numbered paragraphs. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: Sure. And when I get to the place 12 where it's different, I'll stop and we'll address that. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. PAGLIUCA: Is that fair? 15 THE COURT: Fair. 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: 63. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Sustained. 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: 69, 75. 19 THE COURT: Sustained on 69. And sustained on 75. 20 MR. PAGLIUCA: 81. 21 THE COURT: Sustained. 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: 87. 23 THE COURT: Sustained. 24 MR. PAGLIUCA: 93. 25 THE COURT: Sustained. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013224 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 211 of 264 1652 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 I'll sustain on 57 for the same reason. 2 Next. 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: I think I can -- I can just tell you 4 all of them, your Honor, which are going to be the same. 5 THE COURT: If they are all on that same theory, then 6 you can make the record. If there's any different theory of 7 inconsistency, either as to the specific time frame and 8 testimony or to some different inference available, I'll hear 9 it. But otherwise just make the record with respect to the 10 numbered paragraphs. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: Sure. And when I get to the place 12 where it's different, I'll stop and we'll address that. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. PAGLIUCA: Is that fair? 15 THE COURT: Fair. 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: 63. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Sustained. 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: 69, 75. 19 THE COURT: Sustained on 69. And sustained on 75. 20 MR. PAGLIUCA: 81. 21 THE COURT: Sustained. 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: 87. 23 THE COURT: Sustained. 24 MR. PAGLIUCA: 93. 25 THE COURT: Sustained. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018809 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 212 of 264 1653 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: 99. 2 THE COURT: Sustained. 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: 105. 4 THE COURT: Sustained. 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: 111. 6 THE COURT: Sustained. 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: 117. 8 THE COURT: Sustained. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: 123. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: 129. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: 135. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: 141. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 MR. PAGLIUCA: 147. 18 THE COURT: Sustained. 19 MR. PAGLIUCA: 153. 20 THE COURT: Sustained. 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: 159. 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 MR. PAGLIUCA: 165. 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: 171. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013225 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 212 of 264 1653 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: 99. 2 THE COURT: Sustained. 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: 105. 4 THE COURT: Sustained. 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: 111. 6 THE COURT: Sustained. 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: 117. 8 THE COURT: Sustained. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: 123. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: 129. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: 135. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: 141. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 MR. PAGLIUCA: 147. 18 THE COURT: Sustained. 19 MR. PAGLIUCA: 153. 20 THE COURT: Sustained. 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: 159. 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 MR. PAGLIUCA: 165. 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: 171. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018810 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 213 of 264 1654 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: 177. 3 THE COURT: Sustained. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: 183. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: There's a slightly different argument on 189. 7 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: And 195. 10 These are the end dates of the allegations, which 11 brackets it before 2004, which is inconsistent with the 12 testimony. And so these are the last two dates alleged in this 13 complaint which does not go farther than August of 2003. 14 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I think the paragraphs 15 themselves are still consistent. I think Mr. Pagliuca can make 16 the point by asking the question of the witness about whether 17 there were any allegations contained after August 2003 in the 18 complaint. 19 THE COURT: Is there a line that says it's the final 20 contact? 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, it just says August 2003, 22 incident one and incident two. 23 THE COURT: Right. 24 MR. PAGLIUCA: And there are no further allegations in 25 the complaint. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013226 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 213 of 264 1654 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: 177. 3 THE COURT: Sustained. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: 183. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: There's a slightly different argument on 189. 7 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: And 195. 10 These are the end dates of the allegations, which brackets it before 2004, which is inconsistent with the 11 12 testimony. And so these are the last two dates alleged in this complaint which does not go farther than August of 2003. 13 14 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I think the paragraphs themselves are still consistent. I think Mr. Pagliuca can make 15 16 the point by asking the question of the witness about whether there were any allegations contained after August 2003 in the 17 complaint. 18 19 THE COURT: Is there a line that says it's the final contact? 20 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, it just says August 2003, incident one and incident two. 22 23 THE COURT: Right. 24 MR. PAGLIUCA: And there are no further allegations in 25 the complaint. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018811 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 214 of 264 1655 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: Okay. Sustained. 2 I think if it said the last incident, then fine. But 3 otherwise you can ask the question. The paragraph itself is 4 not inconsistent. 5 What else? 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, I'm offering 207 and 208 with 7 regard to Sarah Kellen. 8 THE COURT: 207. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: 207 and 208. 10 THE COURT: What's the inconsistency in 207? 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: Again, these are -- well, as to all of 12 these, I'll just make this argument as to all of the paragraphs 13 that the Court sustained. I view these as impeachment by 14 omission because Ms. Maxwell's name does not appear in any of 15 these paragraphs. 16 THE COURT: Right. So this is why this one is 17 different than the last document, which is because of paragraph 18 206 and paragraph 12, which expressly reference other unnamed 19 individual employees and assistants. So on that ground I'll 20 sustain on 207. 21 Is there something different in 208? 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: No. 23 THE COURT: Okay. So sustained on that ground, too. 24 What else? 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: The interrogatory responses, your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013227 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 214 of 264 1655 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: Okay. Sustained. 2 I think if it said the last incident, then fine. But 3 otherwise you can ask the question. The paragraph itself is 4 not inconsistent. 5 What else? 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, I'm offering 207 and 208 with 7 regard to Sarah Kellen. 8 THE COURT: 207. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: 207 and 208. 10 THE COURT: What's the inconsistency in 207? 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: Again, these are -- well, as to all of 12 these, I'll just make this argument as to all of the paragraphs 13 that the Court sustained. I view these as impeachment by 14 omission because Ms. Maxwell's name does not appear in any of 15 these paragraphs. 16 THE COURT: Right. So this is why this one is 17 different than the last document, which is because of paragraph 18 206 and paragraph 12, which expressly reference other unnamed 19 individual employees and assistants. So on that ground I'll 20 sustain on 207. 21 Is there something different in 208? 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: No. 23 THE COURT: Okay. So sustained on that ground, too. 24 What else? 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: The interrogatory responses, your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018812 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 215 of 264 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross Honor. 1 THE COURT: Which one is that tab? 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: Those are going to be C-8, I believe, starting at -- 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: -- tab 8 5 THE COURT: Okay. Is there a specific inconsistency 6 or is it the omission theory? 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. It's both. 8 THE COURT: Objection. Compound. Sustained. 9 Go ahead. 10 MR. PAGLIUCA: It's both. 11 This document, we need to read the question with the 12 answer. And so question 16: State in detail how you came to 13 be at Mr. Epstein's home on each occasion, i.e., did someone 14 bring you or ask you if you would or wanted to go. If so, 15 state the name and address of that individual and what he/she 16 told you and the purpose of your visit. 17 THE COURT: Okay. It's an open-ended question. 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: Right. The answer is limited. 19 THE COURT: Okay. So I will allow -- Ms. Comey, 20 unless you want to be heard, my inclination is to allow the 21 question and answer in 16 in. 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: The same is -- 17, your Honor, we have 23 the question: The amount of monies or anything of value you 24 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013228 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 215 of 264 1656 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 Honor. 2 THE COURT: Which one is that tab? 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: Those are going to be C-8, I believe, 4 starting at -- 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: -- tab 8. 7 THE COURT: Okay. Is there a specific inconsistency 8 or is it the omission theory? 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. It's both. 10 THE COURT: Objection. Compound. Sustained. 11 Go ahead. 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: It's both. 13 This document, we need to read the question with the 14 answer. And so question 16: State in detail how you came to 15 be at Mr. Epstein's home on each occasion, i.e., did someone 16 bring you or ask you if you would or wanted to go. If so, 17 state the name and address of that individual and what he/she 18 told you and the purpose of your visit. 19 THE COURT: Okay. It's an open-ended question. 20 MR. PAGLIUCA: Right. The answer is limited. 21 THE COURT: Okay. So I will allow -- Ms. Comey, 22 unless you want to be heard, my inclination is to allow the 23 question and answer in 16 in. 24 MR. PAGLIUCA: The same is -- 17, your Honor, we have 25 the question: The amount of monies or anything of value you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018813 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 216 of 264 1657 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross claim you were given or paid to you by Mr. Epstein or someone, yaddah, yaddah. And we have an expansive time frame here. And the question, 2000 to 2006. And then the answer again is she's only paid for May or June of 2002 to August of 2003. So we've excluded two whole years by this answer in terms of the time frame the witness testified to. THE COURT: Okay. On the time frame inconsistency, I'll allow 17, question and answer. What's next? MR. PAGLIUCA: 19 is all males who had any sexual contact with her. It says sexual assault or battery since age 10. And the answer is none. And she's testified that there were two males, I believe, that had sexual contact with her. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I believe the testimony was that they saw her naked in the massage room. I don't believe there was testimony about sexual contact. I would want to check the transcript, your Honor, but that is my recollection of the testimony. THE COURT: It's mine as well, but you'll check the transcript. In the absence of that, I don't see any inconsistency. MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, then 20 covers lewd or lascivious conduct, which would be naked people in a massage looking at a naked underage -- MS. COMEY: Again, your Honor, the testimony was just SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013229 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 216 of 264 1657 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 claim you were given or paid to you by Mr. Epstein or someone, yaddah, yaddah. And we have an expansive time frame here. And 2 the question, 2000 to 2006. And then the answer again is she's 3 only paid for May or June of 2002 to August of 2003. So we've 4 excluded two whole years by this answer in terms of the time 5 frame the witness testified to. 6 THE COURT: Okay. On the time frame inconsistency, 7 I'll allow 17, question and answer. 8 What's next? 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: 19 is all males who had any sexual 10 contact with her. It says sexual assault or battery since age 11 10. And the answer is none. And she's testified that there 12 were two males, I believe, that had sexual contact with her. 13 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I believe the testimony was 14 that they saw her naked in the massage room. I don't believe 15 there was testimony about sexual contact. I would want to 16 check the transcript, your Honor, but that is my recollection 17 of the testimony. 18 THE COURT: It's mine as well, but you'll check the 19 transcript. In the absence of that, I don't see any 20 inconsistency. 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, then 20 covers lewd or lascivious 22 conduct, which would be naked people in a massage looking at a 23 naked underage -- 24 MS. COMEY: Again, your Honor, the testimony was just 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018814 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 217 of 264 1658 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 that they saw her naked. There was no other color on it. 2 There was no suggestion that they were engaged in sex acts or 3 that they were naked. I have the same objection. 4 THE COURT: I'm going to overrule on that one, 20. 5 There's the inference available of inconsistency, so I'll allow 6 20. 7 Next. 8 MR. PAGLIUCA: 21 is a description -- 9 THE COURT: Just to spell that out, on the theory that 10 other males present in the room during conduct described could 11 be deemed lewd and lascivious conduct. 12 MS. COMEY: I just want to be clear, your Honor, that 13 the description was that they saw her naked in the massage 14 room, not that they saw her during any of the conduct. I think 15 there was testimony that she would be naked for a period before 16 Jeffrey Epstein would come in; and so it would just be them 17 seeing her nude in the room is what the testimony was, not lewd 18 and lascivious conduct. 19 THE COURT: Well, I'm going to overrule on 20. 20 Go ahead. 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: 21 is simply asking a description of 22 the lewd and lascivious exhibition, the date, and whether you 23 received money or other consideration. Answer, none. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Exhibition we did not get testimony 25 on, so I'll sustain. There's no inconsistency on 21. No SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013230 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 217 of 264 1658 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 that they saw her naked. There was no other color on it. 2 There was no suggestion that they were engaged in sex acts or 3 that they were naked. I have the same objection. 4 THE COURT: I'm going to overrule on that one, 20. 5 There's the inference available of inconsistency, so I'll allow 6 20. 7 Next. 8 MR. PAGLIUCA: 21 is a description -- 9 THE COURT: Just to spell that out, on the theory that 10 other males present in the room during conduct described could 11 be deemed lewd and lascivious conduct. 12 MS. COMEY: I just want to be clear, your Honor, that 13 the description was that they saw her naked in the massage 14 room, not that they saw her during any of the conduct. I think 15 there was testimony that she would be naked for a period before 16 Jeffrey Epstein would come in; and so it would just be them 17 seeing her nude in the room is what the testimony was, not lewd 18 and lascivious conduct. 19 THE COURT: Well, I'm going to overrule on 20. 20 Go ahead. 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: 21 is simply asking a description of 22 the lewd and lascivious exhibition, the date, and whether you 23 received money or other consideration. Answer, none. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Exhibition we did not get testimony 25 on, so I'll sustain. There's no inconsistency on 21. No SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018815 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 218 of 264 1659 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross inference available. MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. THE COURT: Anything else? MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. C-9, question 16. This is an amendment to the prior question 16 by the witness. And the witness added in this amendment: I was also transported via private car provided by Jeffrey Epstein. It's significant, your Honor, in that the witness had the opportunity to think about, reflect, add information here, and did not. And it is important in the context of this case where there's this changed memory over time. THE COURT: Okay. I see the inconsistency. MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you. THE COURT: 16 I'll allow. What else? MR. PAGLIUCA: I think that's it -- well, then there's -- well, I think that's it. THE COURT: Okay. We really need to get the jury back. MS. STERNHEIM: Can we just have five minutes, Judge? THE COURT: You can take five. MS. COMEY: And, your Honor, can I ask how long we have left on cross-examination? I think it's been longer than the direct at this point. THE COURT: I'm stepping down. You can ask the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013231 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 218 of 264 1659 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross inference available. MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. THE COURT: Anything else? MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. C-9, question 16. This is an amendment to the prior question 16 by the witness. And the witness added in this amendment: I was also transported via private car provided by Jeffrey Epstein. It's significant, your Honor, in that the witness had the opportunity to think about, reflect, add information here, and did not. And it is important in the context of this case where there's this changed memory over time. THE COURT: Okay. I see the inconsistency. MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you. THE COURT: 16 I'll allow. What else? MR. PAGLIUCA: I think that's it -- well, then there's -- well, I think that's it. THE COURT: Okay. We really need to get the jury back. MS. STERNHEIM: Can we just have five minutes, Judge? THE COURT: You can take five. MS. COMEY: And, your Honor, can I ask how long we have left on cross-examination? I think it's been longer than the direct at this point. THE COURT: I'm stepping down. You can ask the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018816 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 219 of 264 1660 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 question. 2 (Recess) 3 THE COURT: We'll bring in the jury. 4 Ms. Comey is coming? 5 MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Let's get the witness. 7 Mr. Pagliuca, if you can go to the podium. 8 MS. COMEY: I apologize, your Honor. The witness is on her way. I was looking for her. 9 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 Bring in the jury. 12 (Jury present) 13 THE COURT: Everyone may be seated. And we're getting the witness, so it will just be a second. 14 15 Members of the jury, sorry for the extended break. We were working through issues to minimize the sidebars, so thank 16 you for your patience. 17 18 While we have a second, I'll use the time to remind you of scheduling issues this week. Same as it's been. 19 20 Next week, you'll recall, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday we won't sit. That's because I have a scheduling conflict. So 21 we'll be back Thursday, Friday. 22 23 And then the following week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, then we're off for the Christmas break. 24 25 And the following week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013232 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 219 of 264 1660 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 question. 2 (Recess) 3 THE COURT: We'll bring in the jury. 4 Ms. Comey is coming? 5 MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Let's get the witness. 7 Mr. Pagliuca, if you can go to the podium. 8 MS. COMEY: I apologize, your Honor. The witness is on her way. I was looking for her. 9 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 Bring in the jury. 12 (Jury present) 13 THE COURT: Everyone may be seated. And we're getting the witness, so it will just be a second. 14 15 Members of the jury, sorry for the extended break. We were working through issues to minimize the sidebars, so thank 16 you for your patience. 17 18 While we have a second, I'll use the time to remind you of scheduling issues this week. Same as it's been. 19 20 Next week, you'll recall, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday we won't sit. That's because I have a scheduling conflict. So 21 we'll be back Thursday, Friday. 22 23 And then the following week, Monday, Tuesday, 24 Wednesday, then we're off for the Christmas break. 25 And the following week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018817 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 220 of 264 1661 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 and then we're off for the New Year's break. 2 And I'll keep you updated beyond that as soon as I 3 have it. 4 Good afternoon, Carolyn. You can take your seat. 5 And please remove your mask. Thank you. 6 I remind Carolyn she's under oath. 7 Mr. Pagliuca, you may continue with your 8 cross-examination. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 10 I'd like to direct the witness to 3505-43, page 10, 11 deposition page 31, lines 21 through 25. 12 THE COURT: Can we get them called up please. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm at page 10. 14 MR. PAGLIUCA: It will come up on the screen. 15 THE COURT: Page and lines? 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: Excuse me? Page and line, your Honor, 17 we're going to start -- 18 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I would object to this. 19 MR. PAGLIUCA: Start at page 32, line -- 31, line 18. 20 I'll have the witness to see if it refreshes -- 21 THE COURT: What are the lines? 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: 3505-043, page 10, deposition page -- 23 THE COURT: I can't hear you, Mr. Pagliuca. 24 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm trying to bend down, talk, and read 25 at the same time. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013233 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 220 of 264 1661 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 and then we're off for the New Year's break. 2 And I'll keep you updated beyond that as soon as I 3 have it. 4 Good afternoon, Carolyn. You can take your seat. 5 And please remove your mask. Thank you. 6 I remind Carolyn she's under oath. 7 Mr. Pagliuca, you may continue with your 8 cross-examination. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 10 I'd like to direct the witness to 3505-43, page 10, 11 deposition page 31, lines 21 through 25. 12 THE COURT: Can we get them called up please. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm at page 10. 14 MR. PAGLIUCA: It will come up on the screen. 15 THE COURT: Page and lines? 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: Excuse me? Page and line, your Honor, 17 we're going to start -- 18 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I would object to this. 19 MR. PAGLIUCA: Start at page 32, line -- 31, line 18. 20 I'll have the witness to see if it refreshes -- 21 THE COURT: What are the lines? 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: 3505-043, page 10, deposition page -- 23 THE COURT: I can't hear you, Mr. Pagliuca. 24 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm trying to bend down, talk, and read 25 at the same time. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018818 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 221 of 264 1662 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: Right. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: 3505-043, page 10, deposition page 31, line 19. 3 4 THE WITNESS: Is it in this binder? 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: No, it will come up on your screen 6 there. 7 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 8 THE COURT: Sustained. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I'd like the opportunity to 10 make a record on this after. 11 THE WITNESS: There is nothing on my screen. 12 THE COURT: It's okay. Next question. 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. 14 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 15 Q. Carolyn, in the 2002 to 2003 time frame, you were abusing 16 multiple substances; correct? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you recall abusing alcohol and drugs at approximately 19 the age of 13? 20 A. If you call smoking pot drugs, then I suppose so. 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can direct the witness to 22 3505-035. 23 THE WITNESS: I was also on -- 24 MR. PAGLIUCA: 47. 25 THE COURT: Pause. Go ahead. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013234 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 221 of 264 1662 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: Right. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: 3505-043, page 10, deposition page 31, line 19. 3 4 THE WITNESS: Is it in this binder? 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: No, it will come up on your screen 6 there. 7 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 8 THE COURT: Sustained. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I'd like the opportunity to 10 make a record on this after. 11 THE WITNESS: There is nothing on my screen. 12 THE COURT: It's okay. Next question. 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. 14 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 15 Q. Carolyn, in the 2002 to 2003 time frame, you were abusing 16 multiple substances; correct? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you recall abusing alcohol and drugs at approximately 19 the age of 13? 20 A. If you call smoking pot drugs, then I suppose so. 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can direct the witness to 22 3505-035. 23 THE WITNESS: I was also on -- 24 MR. PAGLIUCA: 47. 25 THE COURT: Pause. Go ahead. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018819 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 222 of 264 1663 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 THE WITNESS: I was also on my Xanax for anxiety. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: 3505-035, 47. 3 THE COURT: Lines please? 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Thank you. 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: 23 through 24. 7 MS. COMEY: No objection, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 9 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 10 Q. You indicated that you began drinking at the age 13, do you see that? 11 A. I don't. 12 13 THE COURT: Carolyn, could you please move into the mic. 14 15 A. I do not see that on the page that's in front of me at all. 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. I will move on, your Honor. 17 Q. You agree you were smoking marijuana at the age of 13; correct? 18 19 A. Yeah. 20 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'd like to direct the witness to 3505-039, page 4, the lower right box. 21 22 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 23 Q. Do you recall that during the time frame 2002 through 2003, you were using benzodiazepines three to six times a week; correct? 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013235 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 222 of 264 1663 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 THE WITNESS: I was also on my Xanax for anxiety. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: 3505-035, 47. 3 THE COURT: Lines please? 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Thank you. 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: 23 through 24. 7 MS. COMEY: No objection, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 9 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 10 Q. You indicated that you began drinking at the age 13, do you see that? 11 A. I don't. 12 13 THE COURT: Carolyn, could you please move into the mic. 14 15 A. I do not see that on the page that's in front of me at all. 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. I will move on, your Honor. 17 Q. You agree you were smoking marijuana at the age of 13; correct? 18 19 A. Yeah. 20 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'd like to direct the witness to 3505-039, page 4, the lower right box. 21 22 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 23 Q. Do you recall that during the time frame 2002 through 2003, you were using benzodiazepines three to six times a week; correct? 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018820 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 223 of 264 1664 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 A. Sir, this document that you're showing me was taken on 9/16/2005. So what does that have to do with the time frame you're asking me? 2 Q. This was an intake interview, do you recall that? 3 A. In 2005. 4 Q. Right. And if you turn to -- 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: The witness can be shown 039, page 6. 6 Q. That's your signature in October of 2005; correct? 7 A. Yes, but what does that have to do with the year 2002 and 2003? 8 Q. You were telling the intake person about your drug use; correct? 9 A. In 2005. 10 Q. And you were telling them about your history of drug use prior to 2005 in this intake; correct? 11 A. No. 12 Q. No? If we look at the intake form, the paragraph that I showed you, do you recall telling -- 13 THE COURT: Can you turn to it and enlarge it. 14 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. 15 Page 4 of the exhibit. 16 THE COURT: It's too small to read. 17 A. Okay. What's your question? 18 Q. Do you recall telling the intake interviewer that you were using benzodiazepines? 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 223 of 264 1664 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 A. Sir, this document that you're showing me was taken on 9/16/2005. So what does that have to do with the time frame you're asking me? 2 Q. This was an intake interview, do you recall that? 3 A. In 2005. 4 Q. Right. And if you turn to -- 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: The witness can be shown 039, page 6. 6 Q. That's your signature in October of 2005; correct? 7 A. Yes, but what does that have to do with the year 2002 and 2003? 8 Q. You were telling the intake person about your drug use; correct 9 A. In 2005. 10 Q. And you were telling them about your history of drug use prior to 2005 in this intake; correct? 11 A. No. 12 Q. No? If we look at the intake form, the paragraph that I showed you, do you recall telling -- 13 THE COURT: Can you turn to it and enlarge it. 14 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. 15 Page 4 of the exhibit. 16 THE COURT: It's too small to read. 17 A. Okay. What's your question? 18 Q. Do you recall telling the intake interviewer that you were using benzodiazepines? 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018821 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 224 of 264 1665 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 A. That's Xanax. 2 Q. I understand. Three to six times per week, right? 3 A. Right. At the age of 13. 4 Q. Right. 5 A. That was my anxiety medication. 6 Q. You were using alcohol three to six times per week, correct? 7 8 A. And I used it in 2005. 9 Q. Do you see that it says alcohol, three to six times a week, beginning -- 10 11 MS. COMEY: Objection. Reading from a document -- 12 THE COURT: Just a moment. Just a moment. 13 You could direct her to it and ask if that refreshes. 14 Q. Yes. I'm looking at where it says alcohol. 15 A. I see that. 16 Q. Okay. And you told them -- well, does this refresh your memory that you told them that you were using alcohol three to six times per week beginning in 2000? Do you see that? 17 18 19 A. Yes, I do see that. But that's incorrect. 20 Q. Okay. So this interviewer -- well, you signed this form, didn't you? 21 22 A. I did. 23 Q. It's also true that you were doing cocaine in 2002 and 2003; correct? 24 25 A. Absolutely not. I haven't done that. I didn't use crack SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013237 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 224 of 264 1665 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 A. That's Xanax. 2 Q. I understand. Three to six times per week, right? 3 A. Right. At the age of 13. 4 Q. Right. 5 A. That was my anxiety medication. 6 Q. You were using alcohol three to six times per week, correct? 7 8 A. And I used it in 2005. 9 Q. Do you see that it says alcohol, three to six times a week, beginning -- 10 11 MS. COMEY: Objection. Reading from a document -- 12 THE COURT: Just a moment. Just a moment. 13 You could direct her to it and ask if that refreshes. 14 Q. Yes. I'm looking at where it says alcohol. 15 A. I see that. 16 Q. Okay. And you told them -- well, does this refresh your memory that you told them that you were using alcohol three to six times per week beginning in 2000? Do you see that? 17 18 19 A. Yes, I do see that. But that's incorrect. 20 Q. Okay. So this interviewer -- well, you signed this form, didn't you? 21 22 A. I did. 23 Q. It's also true that you were doing cocaine in 2002 and 2003; correct? 24 25 A. Absolutely not. I haven't done that. I didn't use crack SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018822 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 225 of 264 1666 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 until I was 18 years old. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: We can direct the witness to -- 3 A. And it dates in 2005. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: We can take down that document, your 5 Honor. 6 THE COURT: It's down. 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: If I can direct the witness to 8 3505-043, page 28, deposition page 105, lines 7 through 11. 9 THE COURT: Just a moment. 10 A. I'm sorry, what lines? 11 Q. It will be enlarged for you. 12 A. No, I see that. I'm asking what lines of the paper you 13 would like me to look at. 14 Q. Sure. We're looking at lines 7 through 11. 15 A. Yes, I see that. 16 Q. Again, this is testimony under oath in 2009; correct? 17 A. Right. 18 MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 MR. PAGLIUCA: The basis of the objection, your Honor? 21 THE COURT: Not inconsistent. 22 Q. You also ingested something called angel trumpets when you 23 were going to Mr. Epstein's house, do you recall that? 24 A. That's a flower. I don't think you should ingest those at 25 all. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013238 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 225 of 264 1666 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 until I was 18 years old. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: We can direct the witness to -- 3 A. And it dates in 2005. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: We can take down that document, your 5 Honor. 6 THE COURT: It's down. 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: If I can direct the witness to 8 3505-043, page 28, deposition page 105, lines 7 through 11. 9 THE COURT: Just a moment. 10 A. I'm sorry, what lines? 11 Q. It will be enlarged for you. 12 A. No, I see that. I'm asking what lines of the paper you 13 would like me to look at. 14 Q. Sure. We're looking at lines 7 through 11. 15 A. Yes, I see that. 16 Q. Again, this is testimony under oath in 2009; correct? 17 A. Right. 18 MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 MR. PAGLIUCA: The basis of the objection, your Honor? 21 THE COURT: Not inconsistent. 22 Q. You also ingested something called angel trumpets when you 23 were going to Mr. Epstein's house, do you recall that? 24 A. That's a flower. I don't think you should ingest those at 25 all. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018823 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 226 of 264 1667 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can direct the witness to 3505-035, page 139. That's the deposition page, I believe. 2 3 THE COURT: I will direct the witness to answer, 4 because I don't think we got a direct answer to the question. 5 THE WITNESS: I have never taken a hallucinogenic. 6 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: 3505-035, page 139, line 10. 8 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 9 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, may I confer with counsel -- 10 THE COURT: You may. 11 MS. COMEY: -- please? 12 (Counsel conferred) 13 THE WITNESS: I have never seen this document in my 14 life. 15 THE COURT: Just one second, Carolyn. 16 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 17 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Can you orient the witness as to what 19 we're looking at. 20 MR. PAGLIUCA: Page 138. 21 THE COURT: But just the date that this is from. 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: This is from 2009, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Okay. Can you just show the first page, 24 because she said she didn't know what it was. 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: Sure. October 21st, 2009. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013239 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 226 of 264 1667 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can direct the witness to 3505-035, page 139. That's the deposition page, I believe. 2 THE COURT: I will direct the witness to answer, because I don't think we got a direct answer to the question. 3 THE WITNESS: I have never taken a hallucinogenic. 4 5 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: 3505-035, page 139, line 10. 7 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 8 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, may I confer with counsel -- 9 THE COURT: You may. 10 MS. COMEY: -- please? 11 (Counsel conferred) 12 THE WITNESS: I have never seen this document in my 13 life. 14 15 THE COURT: Just one second, Carolyn. 16 MS. COMEY: Thank you, your Honor. 17 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Can you orient the witness as to what 19 we're looking at. 20 MR. PAGLIUCA: Page 138. 21 THE COURT: But just the date that this is from. 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: This is from 2009, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Okay. Can you just show the first page, 24 because she said she didn't know what it was. 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: Sure. October 21st, 2009. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018824 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 227 of 264 1668 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: Okay. And then -- 2 THE WITNESS: Rough draft. Who's it from? 3 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 4 Q. The question is did you make that statement? 5 A. What statement? 6 Q. That you used angel trumpets -- 7 A. No, I don't even see that as a question. It was asking about hallucinogenics. 8 9 Q. You know what an angel trumpet is; correct? 10 A. I do not. I don't suggest anybody eats them. 11 Q. Your drug use continued in the 2001 through 2003 time frame; correct? 12 13 A. No. 14 Q. Isn't it true that you left the state of Florida in part because you were abusing cocaine, and you and your boyfriend wanted to go to Georgia so that you could detox? 15 16 17 A. That is not true. I went to Georgia to escape the traumatic events that were happening in my life. 18 19 Q. Well, and you went to Georgia and you were pregnant, right? 20 A. I got pregnant in Georgia. 21 Q. And you stayed there through 2003; correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. I want to ask you some questions about your testimony related to your claims about having sex with Mr. Epstein. 24 25 Do you remember testifying about that on direct SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013240 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 227 of 264 1668 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: Okay. And then -- 2 THE WITNESS: Rough draft. Who's it from? 3 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 4 Q. The question is did you make that statement? 5 A. What statement? 6 Q. That you used angel trumpets -- 7 A. No, I don't even see that as a question. It was asking about hallucinogenics. 8 9 Q. You know what an angel trumpet is; correct? 10 A. I do not. I don't suggest anybody eats them. 11 Q. Your drug use continued in the 2001 through 2003 time frame; correct? 12 13 A. No. 14 Q. Isn't it true that you left the state of Florida in part because you were abusing cocaine, and you and your boyfriend wanted to go to Georgia so that you could detox? 15 16 17 A. That is not true. I went to Georgia to escape the traumatic events that were happening in my life. 18 19 Q. Well, and you went to Georgia and you were pregnant, right? 20 A. I got pregnant in Georgia. 21 Q. And you stayed there through 2003; correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. I want to ask you some questions about your testimony related to your claims about having sex with Mr. Epstein. 24 25 Do you remember testifying about that on direct SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018825 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 228 of 264 1669 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 examination? 2 A. When, earlier? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And let me back up. 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. Isn't it true that you used cocaine while you were at Mr. Epstein's house? 8 A. No. 9 10 MR. PAGLIUCA: If I could direct the witness's attention -- 11 12 A. I saw the paper. 13 THE COURT: I will ask you to call it up. 14 MR. PAGLIUCA: I am, your Honor. I'm going to direct 15 the witness's attention to page 3505-043, 28, at page 105. 16 Let's start at page 103. 17 Does the witness have page 103? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 MR. PAGLIUCA: Let's go to line 10, start at line 11. 20 MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor. 21 THE WITNESS: What does Mr. Epstein telling me not to 22 take drugs have to do with the question? 23 THE COURT: Just a second. When there's an objection, 24 you have to wait till I rule, please. 25 THE WITNESS: Oh. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013241 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 228 of 264 1669 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 examination? 2 A. When, earlier? 3 Q. Yes. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And let me back up. 6 A. Yeah. 7 Q. Isn't it true that you used cocaine while you were at 8 Mr. Epstein's house? 9 A. No. 10 MR. PAGLIUCA: If I could direct the witness's 11 attention -- 12 A. I saw the paper. 13 THE COURT: I will ask you to call it up. 14 MR. PAGLIUCA: I am, your Honor. I'm going to direct 15 the witness's attention to page 3505-043, 28, at page 105. 16 Let's start at page 103. 17 Does the witness have page 103? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 MR. PAGLIUCA: Let's go to line 10, start at line 11. 20 MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor. 21 THE WITNESS: What does Mr. Epstein telling me not to 22 take drugs have to do with the question? 23 THE COURT: Just a second. When there's an objection, 24 you have to wait till I rule, please. 25 THE WITNESS: Oh. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018826 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 229 of 264 1670 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: It's foundational for the next question. 2 3 THE COURT: Well, then let's direct counsel and the 4 Court to the lines, and then you can expand for foundation, if 5 necessary. 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: Sure. Line 14: 7 Question: And how did Mr. Epstein -- 8 THE COURT: No, no, no. You need to tell the 9 government and me what lines to read. The government can 10 indicate objection or no objection, and then I'll rule, and 11 then you can proceed or not proceed. 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: Sure. Page 103, line 14 through 25, 13 continuing on to 104, through page -- line 25, continuing on 14 through 105, page -- line 25. 15 THE COURT: I'm still on 103 here. 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: Excuse me? 17 THE COURT: It was just on 103 so far. 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. 19 THE COURT: You need to communicate with each other 20 because it's just not working. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't understand what this has to 22 do -- 23 THE COURT: Just a minute, please. 24 Can you repeat, I guess, the line. Okay. 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: And we do have paper copies, your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013242 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 229 of 264 1670 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: It's foundational for the next question. 2 3 THE COURT: Well, then let's direct counsel and the 4 Court to the lines, and then you can expand for foundation, if 5 necessary. 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: Sure. Line 14: 7 Question: And how did Mr. Epstein -- 8 THE COURT: No, no, no. You need to tell the 9 government and me what lines to read. The government can 10 indicate objection or no objection, and then I'll rule, and 11 then you can proceed or not proceed. 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: Sure. Page 103, line 14 through 25, 13 continuing on to 104, through page -- line 25, continuing on 14 through 105, page -- line 25. 15 THE COURT: I'm still on 103 here. 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: Excuse me? 17 THE COURT: It was just on 103 so far. 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. 19 THE COURT: You need to communicate with each other 20 because it's just not working. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't understand what this has to 22 do -- 23 THE COURT: Just a minute, please. 24 Can you repeat, I guess, the line. Okay. 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: And we do have paper copies, your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018827 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 230 of 264 1671 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 Honor, if that's easier. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 So what exact lines do you propose reading? 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, I think we need to start at 14 5 and continue through that page, the next page, the next page, 6 and the next page. 7 THE COURT: Ms. Comey. 8 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I think the only potentially 9 admissible portion of this might be on pages 105 through 106. 10 THE COURT: Thank you. Let's go there. 11 That seems to get what you're getting at. 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: Sure. I was just trying to give the 13 context, your Honor. So that's fine. I'll go there. 14 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 15 Q. Looking at line 7 on page 105, does it refresh your memory 16 that you answered the question: Yes, but I have done cocaine 17 at Mr. Epstein's house also? 18 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I think we need the question 19 and then its answer, and then it needs to continue through to 20 page 106. 21 THE WITNESS: I need to know what line -- 22 THE COURT: So at this point you may read on that page 23 those indicated lines. Go ahead. 24 MR. PAGLIUCA: Fine, your Honor. 25 Starting at line 4, is that fine, Ms. Comey? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013243 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 230 of 264 1671 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 Honor, if that's easier. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 So what exact lines do you propose reading? 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, I think we need to start at 14 5 and continue through that page, the next page, the next page, 6 and the next page. 7 THE COURT: Ms. Comey. 8 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I think the only potentially 9 admissible portion of this might be on pages 105 through 106. 10 THE COURT: Thank you. Let's go there. 11 That seems to get what you're getting at. 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: Sure. I was just trying to give the 13 context, your Honor. So that's fine. I'll go there. 14 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 15 Q. Looking at line 7 on page 105, does it refresh your memory 16 that you answered the question: Yes, but I have done cocaine 17 at Mr. Epstein's house also? 18 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I think we need the question 19 and then its answer, and then it needs to continue through to 20 page 106. 21 THE WITNESS: I need to know what line -- 22 THE COURT: So at this point you may read on that page 23 those indicated lines. Go ahead. 24 MR. PAGLIUCA: Fine, your Honor. 25 Starting at line 4, is that fine, Ms. Comey? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018828 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 231 of 264 1672 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 MS. COMEY: Yes. But I would ask that counsel be cautioned not to say a last name. 2 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: Absolutely. 4 MS. COMEY: And then continuing into page 106, line 9. 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: That will be fine. 6 Does it refresh your recollection -- 7 THE COURT: You can just read. Just read it all the way through and then move on. 8 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. 10 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: (Reading) 12 "Q. And you were and he doing cocaine away from Mr. Epstein, that is what you did when you weren't at Mr. Epstein's house? 13 14 "A. Yes. But I have done cocaine at Mr. Epstein's house also. 15 "Q. When did you do cocaine at Mr. Epstein's house? 16 "A. On some occasions when I was there. 17 "Q. What occasions were those? 18 "A. I don't recall the dates and times. 19 "Q. What, where at his house were you doing cocaine? 20 "A. I would excuse myself and go to the bathroom. 21 "Q. And who was in the bathroom when you were doing cocaine? 22 "A. Myself. 23 "Q. And what form of cocaine were you doing? 24 "A. Powder. 25 "Q. And did you tell anyone you were taking cocaine? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013244 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 231 of 264 1672 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 MS. COMEY: Yes. But I would ask that counsel be cautioned not to say a last name. 2 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: Absolutely. 4 MS. COMEY: And then continuing into page 106, line 9. 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: That will be fine. 6 Does it refresh your recollection -- 7 THE COURT: You can just read. Just read it all the way through and then move on. 8 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. 10 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: (Reading) 12 "Q. And you were and he doing cocaine away from Mr. Epstein, that is what you did when you weren't at Mr. Epstein's house? 13 14 "A. Yes. But I have done cocaine at Mr. Epstein's house also. 15 "Q. When did you do cocaine at Mr. Epstein's house? 16 "A. On some occasions when I was there. 17 "Q. What occasions were those? 18 "A. I don't recall the dates and times. 19 "Q. What, where at his house were you doing cocaine? 20 "A. I would excuse myself and go to the bathroom. 21 "Q. And who was in the bathroom when you were doing cocaine? 22 "A. Myself. 23 "Q. And what form of cocaine were you doing? 24 "A. Powder. 25 "Q. And did you tell anyone you were taking cocaine? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018829 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 232 of 264 1673 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 "A. Mr. Epstein knew I was high. "Q. Did you tell Mr. Epstein that you had gone in the bathroom in his house and snorted cocaine? "A. Not per se in that form. "Q. Did you tell him that you were using drugs in his house? "A. No. "Q. So -- no. He never told you to do drugs in his house, did he? "A. No, he never told me to." A. He says he never told you to use drugs. You missed a word. Q. Okay. And then the answer was: "A. No, he never told me to." Correct? A. That's what it says. Q. And those are the answers that you gave under oath in 2009; correct? A. Yes. Q. Now, I want to ask you some questions about your testimony here today about your claim that you had intercourse with Mr. Epstein. MR. PAGLIUCA: Directing the witness's attention to the same page, 106, line 13. THE COURT: Not up yet. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I would just ask that the witness be asked to explain what she defines as "sexual SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013245 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 232 of 264 1673 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 "A. Mr. Epstein knew I was high. "Q. Did you tell Mr. Epstein that you had gone in the bathroom in his house and snorted cocaine? "A. Not per se in that form. "Q. Did you tell him that you were using drugs in his house? "A. No. "Q. So -- no. He never told you to do drugs in his house, did he? "A. No, he never told me to." A. He says he never told you to use drugs. You missed a word. Q. Okay. And then the answer was: "A. No, he never told me to." Correct? A. That's what it says. Q. And those are the answers that you gave under oath in 2009; correct? A. Yes. Q. Now, I want to ask you some questions about your testimony here today about your claim that you had intercourse with Mr. Epstein. MR. PAGLIUCA: Directing the witness's attention to the same page, 106, line 13. THE COURT: Not up yet. MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I would just ask that the witness be asked to explain what she defines as "sexual SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018830 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 233 of 264 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1674 1 intercourse." 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: I think that's -- 3 THE COURT: That's not an objection. Let me look at 4 what we're talking about. Let's do this the same way every 5 time, okay? 6 MS. COMEY: Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Page and line? 8 MR. PAGLIUCA: 106, 13, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 10 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 11 Q. (Reading) 12 "Q. Did you ever have sexual intercourse with Mr. Epstein? 13 "A. No." 14 Do you see that question and answer? 15 A. Yeah, I do. 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: Then, your Honor, I'm going to 17 continue, with the Court's permission, to the next series of 18 questions and answers. 19 THE WITNESS: Can I finish my answer? 20 THE COURT: You may. 21 THE WITNESS: You asked me the question, did you ever 22 have sexual intercourse with Mr. Epstein. And the answer says 23 that I replied no. I replied no because I was not a willing 24 participant. He had intercourse with me and I stopped it. I 25 didn't ask to have sex with him. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013246 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 233 of 264 1674 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 intercourse." 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: I think that's -- 3 THE COURT: That's not an objection. Let me look at 4 what we're talking about. Let's do this the same way every 5 time, okay? 6 MS. COMEY: Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Page and line? 8 MR. PAGLIUCA: 106, 13, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 10 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 11 Q. (Reading) 12 "Q. Did you ever have sexual intercourse with Mr. Epstein? 13 "A. No." 14 Do you see that question and answer? 15 A. Yeah, I do. 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: Then, your Honor, I'm going to 17 continue, with the Court's permission, to the next series of 18 questions and answers. 19 THE WITNESS: Can I finish my answer? 20 THE COURT: You may. 21 THE WITNESS: You asked me the question, did you ever 22 have sexual intercourse with Mr. Epstein. And the answer says 23 that I replied no. I replied no because I was not a willing 24 participant. He had intercourse with me and I stopped it. I 25 didn't ask to have sex with him. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018831 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 234 of 264 1675 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: And, your Honor, may I continue reading? 2 THE COURT: What lines? 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: Sixteen through 107, 14. 4 THE COURT: Need to see 107. 5 Through what line? 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: Five, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 8 MS. COMEY: I would object, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 10 MS. COMEY: Same objection, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Go ahead. 12 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 13 Q. (Reading) 14 "Q. Do you know what I mean by sexual intercourse or do I need to go through the various acts? 15 "A. Oh, I am pretty sure I know what sexual intercourse is being I have two children. 16 "Q. Well, I just want to make sure we're clear about some things. Did Mr. Epstein ever insert his penis into any part of your body at all? 17 "A. I just said that I've never had any sexual intercourse with Mr. Epstein, and that I knew what -- " 18 THE COURT: You misread. 19 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 21 DOJ-OGR-00013247 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 234 of 264 1675 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: And, your Honor, may I continue reading? 2 THE COURT: What lines? 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: Sixteen through 107, 14. 4 THE COURT: Need to see 107. 5 Through what line? 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: Five, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 8 MS. COMEY: I would object, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 10 MS. COMEY: Same objection, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Go ahead. 12 13 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 14 Q. (Reading) 15 "Q. Do you know what I mean by sexual intercourse or do I need to go through the various acts? 16 "A. Oh, I am pretty sure I know what sexual intercourse is being I have two children. 17 "Q. Well, I just want to make sure we're clear about some things. Did Mr. Epstein ever insert his penis into any part of your body at all? 18 "A. I just said that I've never had any sexual intercourse with Mr. Epstein, and that I knew what -- " 19 THE COURT: You misread. 20 21 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 22 23 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 24 DOJ-OGR-00018832 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 235 of 264 1676 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. (Reading) 2 A. "I just said that I've never had sexual intercourse with 3 Mr. Epstein, and that I knew what sexual intercourse was and I 4 said no. So for you to explain to me what it was, unnecessary. 5 "Q. Okay. Do you just want to answer my question now, ma'am? 6 "A. I did four times. I said no." 7 Continuing on, your Honor, to -- 8 THE WITNESS: For a spelling of that answer should 9 have been he did four times, I said no. 10 (Continued on next page) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013248 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 235 of 264 1676 LC7VMAX7 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. (Reading) 2 A. "I just said that I've never had sexual intercourse with 3 Mr. Epstein, and that I knew what sexual intercourse was and I 4 said no. So for you to explain to me what it was, unnecessary. 5 "Q. Okay. Do you just want to answer my question now, ma'am? 6 "A. I did four times. I said no." 7 Continuing on, your Honor, to -- 8 THE WITNESS: For a spelling of that answer should 9 have been he did four times, I said no. 10 (Continued on next page) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018833 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 236 of 264 1677 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: Continuing on, your Honor, to page 106, please. 2 3 THE COURT: Lines? 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: 24, 25 -- excuse me. 108, 24, 25, 109, 5 16. 6 THE COURT: Ms. Comey? 7 MS. COMEY: Same objection. 8 MR. PAGLIUCA: I need a basis. I'm going to respond. 9 THE COURT: I'm going to overrule. 10 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 11 "Q. Did you ever masturbate Mr. Epstein? 12 "A. No. 13 "Q. Did you ever touch Mr. Epstein's penis? 14 "A. No. 15 "Q. In any way? 16 "A. No. No. 17 "Q. Did you ever penetrate with any part of your body, any part of Mr. Epstein's body? 18 "A. Besides touching his nipples, no. 19 "Q. Did you ever do anything physically to Mr. Epstein, other than give him a nipple massage? 20 "A. Squeezed his nipples. 21 22 THE WITNESS: That says, "Simple massage." 23 "Q. Simple massage? 24 "A. Squeezed his nipples." 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013249 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 236 of 264 1677 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross MR. PAGLIUCA: Continuing on, your Honor, to page 106, please. THE COURT: Lines? MR. PAGLIUCA: 24, 25 -- excuse me. 108, 24, 25, 109, 16. THE COURT: Ms. Comey? MS. COMEY: Same objection. MR. PAGLIUCA: I need a basis. I'm going to respond. THE COURT: I'm going to overrule. BY MR. PAGLIUCA: "Q. Did you ever masturbate Mr. Epstein? "A. No. "Q. Did you ever touch Mr. Epstein's penis? "A. No. "Q. In any way? "A. No. No. "Q. Did you ever penetrate with any part of your body, any part of Mr. Epstein's body? "A. Besides touching his nipples, no. "Q. Did you ever do anything physically to Mr. Epstein, other than give him a nipple massage? "A. Squeezed his nipples. THE WITNESS: That says, "Simple massage." "Q. Simple massage? "A. Squeezed his nipples." SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018834 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 237 of 264 1678 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 Correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 "Q. Was that part of the massage? 4 "A. No. 5 "Q. Okay. So other than squeeze his nipples and give him a massage, did you do anything else physically to Mr. Epstein? 6 "A. No." 7 8 Correct? 9 A. Yes. But what does this have to do with what I'm here for today? 10 11 THE COURT: Mr. Pagliuca, next question. 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. 13 Q. When you spoke to the agents in 2007, you did not say 14 anything about Ghislaine Maxwell; correct? 15 A. Ms. Maxwell was not the topic of discussion at that time. 16 Q. Is the answer to my question yes? 17 A. The only thing Ms. Maxwell was involved in was fondling and 18 touching my breasts and my buttocks, and for that, my soul is 19 broken and so is my heart. 20 THE COURT: Counsel. 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I move to strike the answer 22 and ask the Court to direct the witness to answer the question 23 asked. 24 THE COURT: Carolyn, you have to follow my rules here, 25 you have to. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013250 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 237 of 264 1678 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 Correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 "Q. Was that part of the massage? 4 "A. No. 5 "Q. Okay. So other than squeeze his nipples and give him a massage, did you do anything else physically to Mr. Epstein? 6 "A. No." 7 8 Correct? 9 A. Yes. But what does this have to do with what I'm here for today? 10 11 THE COURT: Mr. Pagliuca, next question. 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. 13 Q. When you spoke to the agents in 2007, you did not say 14 anything about Ghislaine Maxwell; correct? 15 A. Ms. Maxwell was not the topic of discussion at that time. 16 Q. Is the answer to my question yes? 17 A. The only thing Ms. Maxwell was involved in was fondling and 18 touching my breasts and my buttocks, and for that, my soul is 19 broken and so is my heart. 20 THE COURT: Counsel. 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I move to strike the answer 22 and ask the Court to direct the witness to answer the question 23 asked. 24 THE COURT: Carolyn, you have to follow my rules here, 25 you have to. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018835 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 238 of 264 1679 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 Jury will disregard. I do direct the witness to 2 respond to the questions. I'll give you an opportunity to 3 explain and Ms. Comey will have an opportunity to redirect. 4 Go ahead. 5 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 6 Q. The question was, in 2007, you never said anything to the 7 FBI agents about Ms. Maxwell; correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. Your two lawsuits involving Jeffrey Epstein and Sarah 10 Kellen say nothing about Ms. Maxwell; correct? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. Your deposition testimony in 2009 says nothing about 13 Ms. Maxwell, other than the two words that Ms. Comey read; 14 correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Now, you also met with Ms.Villaflana (ph.) in Florida in 17 2007 with the government. Do you recall meeting with her? 18 A. I'm sorry, who? 19 Q. Ms. Villaflana? 20 A. I'm not -- I don't recall the name. 21 Q. Do you recall that there was a second meeting with the 22 government in 2007 in Florida which Ms.Villaflana attended? Do 23 you remember that? 24 A. I'm not sure exactly who that is. 25 Q. You never said anything to Ms.Villaflana or anyone else in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013251 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 238 of 264 1679 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 Jury will disregard. I do direct the witness to 2 respond to the questions. I'll give you an opportunity to 3 explain and Ms. Comey will have an opportunity to redirect. 4 Go ahead. 5 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 6 Q. The question was, in 2007, you never said anything to the 7 FBI agents about Ms. Maxwell; correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. Your two lawsuits involving Jeffrey Epstein and Sarah 10 Kellen say nothing about Ms. Maxwell; correct? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. Your deposition testimony in 2009 says nothing about 13 Ms. Maxwell, other than the two words that Ms. Comey read; 14 correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Now, you also met with Ms.Villaflana (ph.) in Florida in 17 2007 with the government. Do you recall meeting with her? 18 A. I'm sorry, who? 19 Q. Ms. Villaflana? 20 A. I'm not -- I don't recall the name. 21 Q. Do you recall that there was a second meeting with the 22 government in 2007 in Florida which Ms.Villaflana attended? Do 23 you remember that? 24 A. I'm not sure exactly who that is. 25 Q. You never said anything to Ms.Villaflana or anyone else in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018836 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 239 of 264 1680 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross the second meeting about Ms. Maxwell; correct? A. I don't recall. Q. Between 2002 and 2003, you were in mental health counseling. Do you recall that? A. No. Q. Do you remember Dr. Susan Pope? A. That was my therapist. Q. All right. A. I wasn't in a mental facility. Q. I said counseling. So I will use your word, your therapist. Do you recall being in therapy with Dr. Pope? A. Yes. Q. You never mentioned Ms. Maxwell in therapy with Dr. Pope; correct? A. Correct. Q. Now, you also met with Dr. Serge Thys? A. Dr. Thys. Q. Never mentioned Ms. Maxwell to him either; correct? A. Correct. Q. It's true, isn't it, Carolyn, that your story has changed significantly since 2007, 2008, and 2009; correct? A. No. Q. And isn't it true -- well, first of all, you had no contact with the government between 2007 and 2019; correct? A. I'm not sure. I don't remember the dates. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013252 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 239 of 264 1680 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross the second meeting about Ms. Maxwell; correct? A. I don't recall. Q. Between 2002 and 2003, you were in mental health counseling. Do you recall that? A. No. Q. Do you remember Dr. Susan Pope? A. That was my therapist. Q. All right. A. I wasn't in a mental facility. Q. I said counseling. So I will use your word, your therapist. Do you recall being in therapy with Dr. Pope? A. Yes. Q. You never mentioned Ms. Maxwell in therapy with Dr. Pope; correct? A. Correct. Q. Now, you also met with Dr. Serge Thys? A. Dr. Thys. Q. Never mentioned Ms. Maxwell to him either; correct? A. Correct. Q. It's true, isn't it, Carolyn, that your story has changed significantly since 2007, 2008, and 2009; correct? A. No. Q. And isn't it true -- well, first of all, you had no contact with the government between 2007 and 2019; correct? A. I'm not sure. I don't remember the dates. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018837 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 240 of 264 1681 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. Do you recall that after you met with the agents in 2007, the next time you spoke with anyone from the FBI was March 19th, 2019? Do you recall that? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And the agents contacted you and you told them that you wanted to talk to your lawyers before talking to them; correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you got a hold of Mr. Scarola, who was your lawyer from before; correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you spoke with Mr. Scarola? The government continued to try to contact you in 2019; correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. And you didn't get back to them at all in 2019, did you? 10 A. I don't recall. 11 Q. Well, do you recall that Mr. Scarola forwarded a number of emails from the government to you in 2019 and you never responded to them? 12 A. I -- I don't recall any of that. 13 Q. You don't recall getting any emails from your lawyer -- 14 A. I'm not sure. My phone number has been changed numerous times. 15 Q. My question is, do you recall getting any forwarded emails from the government from your lawyer? 16 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013253 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 240 of 264 1681 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. Do you recall that after you met with the agents in 2007, the next time you spoke with anyone from the FBI was March 19th, 2019? Do you recall that? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And the agents contacted you and you told them that you wanted to talk to your lawyers before talking to them; correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you got a hold of Mr. Scarola, who was your lawyer from before; correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you spoke with Mr. Scarola? The government continued to try to contact you in 2019; correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. And you didn't get back to them at all in 2019, did you? 10 A. I don't recall. 11 Q. Well, do you recall that Mr. Scarola forwarded a number of emails from the government to you in 2019 and you never responded to them? 12 A. I -- I don't recall any of that. 13 Q. You don't recall getting any emails from your lawyer -- 14 A. I'm not sure. My phone number has been changed numerous times. 15 Q. My question is, do you recall getting any forwarded emails from the government from your lawyer? 16 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018838 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 241 of 264 1682 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. And you didn't respond to those in 2019; correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. Mr. Scarola also left you multiple -- 4 THE COURT: Just a second. Go ahead. 5 A. I'm not sure -- the dates and everything have been run 6 together right now. 7 Q. Mr. Scarola also left multiple voice messages for you with 8 regard to the government, correct, in 2020? 9 MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: If I can direct the witness to 3505 -- 12 THE COURT: No, question. What's your question? 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: I understand. 14 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 15 Q. The question is, you were aware that Mr. Scarola was 16 leaving messages for you about contacting the government? 17 A. I -- to Mr. Scarola -- 18 THE COURT: Just a minute. 19 MS. COMEY: Objection. 20 THE COURT: I sustained the objection. That's why I 21 said go to the next question. 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: I don't understand the basis for the 23 objection, your Honor. 24 MS. COMEY: Privilege, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained. Next question. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013254 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 241 of 264 1682 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. And you didn't respond to those in 2019; correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. Mr. Scarola also left you multiple -- 4 THE COURT: Just a second. Go ahead. 5 A. I'm not sure -- the dates and everything have been run 6 together right now. 7 Q. Mr. Scarola also left multiple voice messages for you with 8 regard to the government, correct, in 2020? 9 MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: If I can direct the witness to 3505 -- 12 THE COURT: No, question. What's your question? 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: I understand. 14 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 15 Q. The question is, you were aware that Mr. Scarola was 16 leaving messages for you about contacting the government? 17 A. I -- to Mr. Scarola -- 18 THE COURT: Just a minute. 19 MS. COMEY: Objection. 20 THE COURT: I sustained the objection. That's why I 21 said go to the next question. 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: I don't understand the basis for the 23 objection, your Honor. 24 MS. COMEY: Privilege, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained. Next question. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018839 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 242 of 264 1683 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 2 Q. You never responded to the government in 2020, based on any messages that were left on your phone; correct? 3 4 A. I did speak with Mr. Scarola in 2020. 5 MS. COMEY: Your Honor -- 6 THE COURT: I'll allow that answer and now you'll move on. 7 8 MR. PAGLIUCA: I am, your Honor. 9 Q. You first responded to the government in July of 2020 through Mr. Danchuk; correct? 10 11 A. That was my attorney. 12 Q. Right. You first responded to them through Mr. Danchuk; correct? 13 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And July 1, 2020, is one month after applications to the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund were opened; correct? 16 17 MS. COMEY: Objection. Foundation. 18 THE COURT: Sustained. 19 Q. You knew that in June, one month earlier, applications were opened to the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund; correct? 20 21 A. No. 22 Q. In July 2020, your lawyer, Mr. Scarola, sent an email with a number of bullet points for the government to interview about; correct? 23 24 25 MS. COMEY: Objection. Foundation. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013255 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 242 of 264 1683 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 2 Q. You never responded to the government in 2020, based on any messages that were left on your phone; correct? 3 4 A. I did speak with Mr. Scarola in 2020. 5 MS. COMEY: Your Honor -- 6 THE COURT: I'll allow that answer and now you'll move on. 7 8 MR. PAGLIUCA: I am, your Honor. 9 Q. You first responded to the government in July of 2020 through Mr. Danchuk; correct? 10 11 A. That was my attorney. 12 Q. Right. You first responded to them through Mr. Danchuk; correct? 13 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And July 1, 2020, is one month after applications to the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund were opened; correct? 16 17 MS. COMEY: Objection. Foundation. 18 THE COURT: Sustained. 19 Q. You knew that in June, one month earlier, applications were opened to the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund; correct? 20 21 A. No. 22 Q. In July 2020, your lawyer, Mr. Scarola, sent an email with a number of bullet points for the government to interview about; correct? 23 24 25 MS. COMEY: Objection. Foundation. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018840 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 243 of 264 1684 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: Just a moment. Overruled. 2 The question is, in July 2020, did Mr. Scarola send an 3 email with a number of bullet points for the government to 4 interview about. 5 A. Anytime I talked to the government, he was present with me. 6 Q. I understand that. And those interviews with the 7 government were a followup to the email that Mr. Scarola sent 8 on your behalf as your agent on July 16th, 2020; correct? 9 MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Sustained on foundation. 11 Q. You were aware that Mr. Scarola sent the email with the 12 bullet points to the government in advance of you meeting with 13 the government; correct? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. And there are materials shown to you in advance of your 16 meeting with the government; correct? 17 MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor. We're veering into 18 privileged territory. 19 THE COURT: You need to clarify the question so I can 20 respond to that objection. 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm not asking for any communications, 22 your Honor. I'm just talking about materials shown to her -- 23 THE COURT: By her attorney, you're asking her what 24 materials her attorney showed her? 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: In advance of meeting with the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013256 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 243 of 264 1684 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: Just a moment. Overruled. 2 The question is, in July 2020, did Mr. Scarola send an 3 email with a number of bullet points for the government to 4 interview about. 5 A. Anytime I talked to the government, he was present with me. 6 Q. I understand that. And those interviews with the 7 government were a followup to the email that Mr. Scarola sent 8 on your behalf as your agent on July 16th, 2020; correct? 9 MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Sustained on foundation. 11 Q. You were aware that Mr. Scarola sent the email with the 12 bullet points to the government in advance of you meeting with 13 the government; correct? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. And there are materials shown to you in advance of your 16 meeting with the government; correct? 17 MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor. We're veering into 18 privileged territory. 19 THE COURT: You need to clarify the question so I can 20 respond to that objection. 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm not asking for any communications, 22 your Honor. I'm just talking about materials shown to her -- 23 THE COURT: By her attorney, you're asking her what 24 materials her attorney showed her? 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: In advance of meeting with the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018841 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 244 of 264 1685 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross government, yes. THE COURT: Sustained. A. I have no -- THE COURT: I sustained it. BY MR. PAGLIUCA: Q. You were present with Mr. Scarola and other lawyers on multiple occasions meeting with the government; correct? A. Yes. Q. And this was at the same time that you were submitting your Epstein Victim Compensation Fund request; correct? A. No, it's not correct. Q. Well, do you recall meeting with the government in July of 2020? THE COURT: Do you recall meeting with the government in July 2020. A. No. I'm not sure. I can't recall. THE COURT: Okay. You can say you can't recall if you can't recall. A. I can't recall. Q. Do you recall meeting with the government -- let me ask the question. How many times do you recall meeting with the government in 2020? A. I'm not sure. Q. Multiple times; correct? A. I don't recall. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013257 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 244 of 264 1685 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 government, yes. 2 THE COURT: Sustained. 3 A. I have no -- 4 THE COURT: I sustained it. 5 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 6 Q. You were present with Mr. Scarola and other lawyers on multiple occasions meeting with the government; correct? 7 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And this was at the same time that you were submitting your Epstein Victim Compensation Fund request; correct? 10 11 A. No, it's not correct. 12 Q. Well, do you recall meeting with the government in July of 2020? 13 14 THE COURT: Do you recall meeting with the government in July 2020. 15 16 A. No. I'm not sure. I can't recall. 17 THE COURT: Okay. You can say you can't recall if you can't recall. 18 19 A. I can't recall. 20 Q. Do you recall meeting with the government -- let me ask the question. How many times do you recall meeting with the government in 2020? 21 22 23 A. I'm not sure. 24 Q. Multiple times; correct? 25 A. I don't recall. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018842 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 245 of 264 1686 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. And do you recall submitting your application to the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund in October of 2020? 2 Epstein Victim Compensation Fund in October of 2020? 3 A. I'm not sure when it was admitted. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: Can we show the witness Exhibit C6, 5 electronically, please, and let's go to the last page of the 6 exhibit. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's my signature. 8 Q. And there is a date on there, which is October 14th, 2020. 9 Does that refresh your recollection as to when you submitted 10 it? 11 A. Yes, that's when it was submitted. 12 Q. And that's during the time that you were meeting with the 13 government; correct? 14 THE COURT: You could put the exhibit down? 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, please. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And your Epstein Victim Compensation Fund submission is 18 different from your two lawsuits against Epstein and Kellen; 19 correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Your Epstein Victim Compensation Fund has the date, May 22 1st, 2020, as the start date, not -- I'm sorry. 2001 as the 23 start date; correct? 24 A. I do not recall. 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can show the witness that -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013258 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 245 of 264 1686 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 Q. And do you recall submitting your application to the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund in October of 2020? 2 Epstein Victim Compensation Fund in October of 2020? 3 A. I'm not sure when it was admitted. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: Can we show the witness Exhibit C6, 5 electronically, please, and let's go to the last page of the 6 exhibit. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, that's my signature. 8 Q. And there is a date on there, which is October 14th, 2020. 9 Does that refresh your recollection as to when you submitted 10 it? 11 A. Yes, that's when it was submitted. 12 Q. And that's during the time that you were meeting with the 13 government; correct? 14 THE COURT: You could put the exhibit down? 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, please. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And your Epstein Victim Compensation Fund submission is 18 different from your two lawsuits against Epstein and Kellen; 19 correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Your Epstein Victim Compensation Fund has the date, May 22 1st, 2020, as the start date, not -- I'm sorry. 2001 as the 23 start date; correct? 24 A. I do not recall. 25 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can show the witness that -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018843 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 246 of 264 1687 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 A. Can you repeat the question. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: Sure. If we can show the witness page 3 of C6, please. THE WITNESS: What is your question now? Q. I'm looking in the middle of the page, would that refresh your memory as to what the date was you were claiming the beginning date in the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund to get compensation? A. Yes. Q. And that's May 1st, 2001; correct? A. Wait. Can you ask me the question again, because -- Q. In your Epstein victim fund compensation submission, you were claiming Epstein abused you beginning May 1, 2001; correct? A. Yes. Q. And that's different from the two lawsuits that you filed -- A. Yes. I've already answered that question for you. Q. Okay. This Epstein Victim Compensation Fund submission is also different because you added claims of vaginal penetration with fingers, sex toys, oral sex, and forged intercourse? A. Absolutely not. That's a lie. MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can show the witness page 4 of 11 in that same exhibit. Q. Does that refresh your recollection that, with the Epstein SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013259 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 246 of 264 1687 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 A. Can you repeat the question. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: Sure. If we can show the witness page 3 of C6, please. THE WITNESS: What is your question now? Q. I'm looking in the middle of the page, would that refresh your memory as to what the date was you were claiming the beginning date in the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund to get compensation? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And that's May 1st, 2001; correct? 11 A. Wait. Can you ask me the question again, because -- 12 Q. In your Epstein victim fund compensation submission, you were claiming Epstein abused you beginning May 1, 2001; correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And that's different from the two lawsuits that you filed -- 18 A. Yes. I've already answered that question for you. 19 Q. Okay. This Epstein Victim Compensation Fund submission is also different because you added claims of vaginal penetration with fingers, sex toys, oral sex, and forged intercourse? 22 A. Absolutely not. That's a lie. 23 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can show the witness page 4 of 11 in that same exhibit. 25 Q. Does that refresh your recollection that, with the Epstein SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018844 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 247 of 264 1688 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 Victim Compensation Fund, you added claims of vaginal penetration with fingers and sex toys, oral sex, forged intercourse; true? 2 A. I suppose. That's what it states. 3 Q. And that's different from your lawsuits against Epstein -- 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Kellen -- 6 THE COURT: Carolyn. Carolyn. You have to wait for the question to finish and then you may give your answer. Go ahead. 7 Q. That's different from your lawsuits filed against Epstein and Kellen in 2008 and 2009; correct? Correct? 8 A. I already answered. Yes. 9 Q. The other difference between your 2008 and 2009 lawsuits and your Epstein Victim Compensation Fund request is that you included Ms. Maxwell in this Epstein victim fund request; correct? 10 A. No, that's not correct. I did not add her. 11 Q. As part of the Epstein Victim Fund request, you were awarded $3.25 million; correct? 12 A. I'm not exactly sure. 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can show the witness C7, and the bottom of the page, the number there. 14 Q. Does that refresh your recollection -- 15 A. That does not say $3.9 million. It's $2,804,000. 16 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013260 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 247 of 264 1688 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 Victim Compensation Fund, you added claims of vaginal penetration with fingers and sex toys, oral sex, forged intercourse; true? 2 A. I suppose. That's what it states. 3 Q. And that's different from your lawsuits against Epstein -- 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Kellen -- 6 THE COURT: Carolyn. Carolyn. You have to wait for the question to finish and then you may give your answer. Go ahead. 7 Q. That's different from your lawsuits filed against Epstein and Kellen in 2008 and 2009; correct? Correct? 8 A. I already answered. Yes. 9 Q. The other difference between your 2008 and 2009 lawsuits and your Epstein Victim Compensation Fund request is that you included Ms. Maxwell in this Epstein victim fund request; correct? 10 A. No, that's not correct. I did not add her. 11 Q. As part of the Epstein Victim Fund request, you were awarded $3.25 million; correct? 12 A. I'm not exactly sure. 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: If we can show the witness C7, and the bottom of the page, the number there. 14 Q. Does that refresh your recollection -- 15 A. That does not say $3.9 million. It's $2,804,000. 16 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018845 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 248 of 264 1689 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you. We can take the exhibit down. 2 Q. You received $2,804,000; correct? 3 A. Yes. But what does that have to do with anything? 4 Q. They subtracted $446,000 which had been previously paid for 5 your claims against Mr. Epstein and Ms. Kellen; correct? 6 A. Yes, but no money will ever fix what's happened to me. So 7 why is that -- 8 MR. PAGLIUCA: Move to strike the answer, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Carolyn, you have to wait for my ruling 10 when there is an objection. 11 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 12 THE COURT: Objection sustained. Jury will disregard. 13 I will direct the witness to answer the questions of 14 Mr. Pagliuca. 15 Ms. Comey will have an opportunity to come back and 16 ask you additional questions. 17 Go ahead. 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 19 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 20 Q. As part of this compensation fund, you know that if any of 21 the information you've submitted is false, you can lose the 22 money; correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you know if any of the information you've submitted is 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013261 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 248 of 264 1689 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you. We can take the exhibit down. 2 Q. You received $2,804,000; correct? 3 A. Yes. But what does that have to do with anything? 4 Q. They subtracted $446,000 which had been previously paid for 5 your claims against Mr. Epstein and Ms. Kellen; correct? 6 A. Yes, but no money will ever fix what's happened to me. So 7 why is that -- 8 MR. PAGLIUCA: Move to strike the answer, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Carolyn, you have to wait for my ruling 10 when there is an objection. 11 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 12 THE COURT: Objection sustained. Jury will disregard. 13 I will direct the witness to answer the questions of 14 Mr. Pagliuca. 15 Ms. Comey will have an opportunity to come back and 16 ask you additional questions. 17 Go ahead. 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 19 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 20 Q. As part of this compensation fund, you know that if any of 21 the information you've submitted is false, you can lose the 22 money; correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you know if any of the information you've submitted is 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018846 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 249 of 264 1690 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 false, you can be in criminal trouble; correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. So there is an incentive for you to stick to your story; correct? 4 5 MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Sustained. 7 Q. Ms. Comey asked you some questions about your schizophrenia 8 and issues related to your children. Do you recall that? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 Q. Isn't it true that you're worried about your children being 11 taken away from you because you've lost custody in the past 12 because of substance abuse issues? 13 A. No, that is not what I said. You are wrong. 14 Q. Isn't it true -- I'm not asking what you said -- 15 A. It is not true, no. 16 THE COURT: Hang on a second. I'll direct the witness 17 to answer the question and then Ms. Comey will have an 18 opportunity to redirect. You may ask the question. 19 Q. Isn't it true that you're worried about your kids being 20 taken away because you lost custody of the children -- 21 A. No. 22 Q. -- in the past -- 23 THE COURT: You have to wait for the question. 24 Q. -- because of substance abuse issues? 25 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013262 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 249 of 264 1690 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 false, you can be in criminal trouble; correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. So there is an incentive for you to stick to your story; correct? 4 5 MS. COMEY: Objection, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Sustained. 7 Q. Ms. Comey asked you some questions about your schizophrenia 8 and issues related to your children. Do you recall that? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 Q. Isn't it true that you're worried about your children being 11 taken away from you because you've lost custody in the past 12 because of substance abuse issues? 13 A. No, that is not what I said. You are wrong. 14 Q. Isn't it true -- I'm not asking what you said -- 15 A. It is not true, no. 16 THE COURT: Hang on a second. I'll direct the witness 17 to answer the question and then Ms. Comey will have an 18 opportunity to redirect. You may ask the question. 19 Q. Isn't it true that you're worried about your kids being 20 taken away because you lost custody of the children -- 21 A. No. 22 Q. -- in the past -- 23 THE COURT: You have to wait for the question. 24 Q. -- because of substance abuse issues? 25 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018847 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 250 of 264 1691 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: Okay. Next question. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: No further questions, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Ms. Comey. 4 MS. COMEY: Briefly, your Honor. Thank you. 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: I need to confer, your Honor. 6 THE WITNESS: I didn't lose my kids. 7 THE COURT: Let's go, counsel, because it's close to the end of the day. 8 9 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I'm going to be very brief. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Pagliuca, now is your time? 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. Got it. Your Honor, 12 as I understand it, the prior testimony that's been read into the record is admitted; is that correct? 13 14 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, it's been read into the transcript. 15 16 THE COURT: Correct. 17 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 18 Q. When you were talking to the government, you recall seeing a photograph of Ms. Maxwell pregnant; is that correct? 19 20 A. Excuse me? 21 Q. One of your memories about Ms. Maxwell is you claim that you saw a photograph of her in Epstein's house, pregnant; correct? 22 23 A. Nude and pregnant laying on the -- 24 25 Q. And pregnant. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013263 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 250 of 264 1691 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - cross 1 THE COURT: Okay. Next question. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: No further questions, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Ms. Comey. 4 MS. COMEY: Briefly, your Honor. Thank you. 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: I need to confer, your Honor. 6 THE WITNESS: I didn't lose my kids. 7 THE COURT: Let's go, counsel, because it's close to the end of the day. 8 9 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, I'm going to be very brief. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Pagliuca, now is your time? 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. Got it. Your Honor, as I understand it, the prior testimony that's been read into the record is admitted; is that correct? 12 13 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, it's been read into the transcript. 14 15 THE COURT: Correct. 16 17 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 18 Q. When you were talking to the government, you recall seeing a photograph of Ms. Maxwell pregnant; is that correct? 19 20 A. Excuse me? 21 Q. One of your memories about Ms. Maxwell is you claim that you saw a photograph of her in Epstein's house, pregnant; correct? 22 23 A. Nude and pregnant laying on the -- 24 25 Q. And pregnant. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018848 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 251 of 264 1692 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - redirect 1 A. -- yes. There was multiple pictures, nude photos. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: May I approach the witness, your Honor? 3 THE COURT: Yes, but Mr. Pagliuca, you got to -- 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. 5 Your Honor, I've handed the witness Defendant's 6 Exhibit C10. The government has a copy. 7 THE WITNESS: That is not the photo. 8 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I think I understand the 9 Court's ruling that the interrogatories that we discussed are 10 admitted; is that correct? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: No further questions. 13 MS. COMEY: Three minutes, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MS. COMEY: May I inquire? 16 THE COURT: You may. 17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 18 BY MS. COMEY: 19 Q. Carolyn, did you write your civil complaint? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did you write your application to the Epstein Victim 22 Compensation Fund yourself? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Carolyn, when you were shown a report of an FBI interview, 25 had you ever seen that report before today? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013264 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 251 of 264 1692 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - redirect 1 A. -- yes. There was multiple pictures, nude photos. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: May I approach the witness, your Honor? 3 THE COURT: Yes, but Mr. Pagliuca, you got to -- 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. 5 Your Honor, I've handed the witness Defendant's Exhibit C10. The government has a copy. 6 7 THE WITNESS: That is not the photo. 8 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I think I understand the Court's ruling that the interrogatories that we discussed are admitted; is that correct? 9 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: No further questions. 13 MS. COMEY: Three minutes, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MS. COMEY: May I inquire? 16 THE COURT: You may. 17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 18 BY MS. COMEY: 19 Q. Carolyn, did you write your civil complaint? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did you write your application to the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund yourself? 22 23 A. No. 24 Q. Carolyn, when you were shown a report of an FBI interview, had you ever seen that report before today? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018849 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 252 of 264 1693 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - redirect 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did you write it yourself? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did anyone ever ask you if it was accurate? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you know how old you were when you first saw Ghislaine Maxwell? 7 8 A. I was 13. 9 Q. Do you know how old you were when you first went to Jeffrey Epstein's house? 10 11 A. I was 13. 12 Q. Do you know what year it was? 13 A. Not off the top of my head right now. 14 Q. Do you know what year it was when you were 14 years old, Carolyn? 15 16 A. I can't remember right now. 17 Q. Are you able to tell us what year it was when you were 15 years old? 18 19 A. No. 20 Q. Can you tell us what year it was when you were 13? 21 A. If I do the math, yes. 22 Q. Did anyone tell you what to say here today on the stand? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Carolyn, are you trying to get money out of testifying here today? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013265 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 252 of 264 1693 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - redirect 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did you write it yourself? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did anyone ever ask you if it was accurate? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Do you know how old you were when you first saw Ghislaine Maxwell? 7 8 A. I was 13. 9 Q. Do you know how old you were when you first went to Jeffrey Epstein's house? 10 11 A. I was 13. 12 Q. Do you know what year it was? 13 A. Not off the top of my head right now. 14 Q. Do you know what year it was when you were 14 years old, Carolyn? 15 16 A. I can't remember right now. 17 Q. Are you able to tell us what year it was when you were 15 years old? 18 19 A. No. 20 Q. Can you tell us what year it was when you were 13? 21 A. If I do the math, yes. 22 Q. Did anyone tell you what to say here today on the stand? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Carolyn, are you trying to get money out of testifying here today? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018850 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 253 of 264 1694 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - redirect 1 A. No. Money will not ever fix what that woman has done to me. 2 Q. Carolyn, why are you here today? 3 A. Because what she did was wrong and she takes vulnerable young girls and -- 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I object. 5 A. I'm so petrified that my daughters are -- 6 THE COURT: Carolyn, just a second. Just a second. I have to rule on an objection. Grounds. 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, it's a narrative and it's -- 8 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, an answer he doesn't like is not a narrative. 9 THE COURT: Counsel, both of you need to behave. 10 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm behaving, your Honor. It's a narrative -- 11 THE COURT: I understand. Just one word objection. 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: 404(b). 13 THE COURT: All right. I'll let the answer in as it is. Next question. 14 BY MS. COMEY: 15 Q. Carolyn, what have you been told by the government to do here today? 16 A. Just tell the truth. 17 MS. COMEY: No further questions. 18 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013266 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 253 of 264 1694 LC7Cmax8 Carolyn - redirect 1 A. No. Money will not ever fix what that woman has done to me. 2 Q. Carolyn, why are you here today? 3 A. Because what she did was wrong and she takes vulnerable young girls and -- 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I object. 5 A. I'm so petrified that my daughters are -- 6 THE COURT: Carolyn, just a second. Just a second. I have to rule on an objection. Grounds. 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, it's a narrative and it's -- 8 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, an answer he doesn't like is not a narrative. 9 THE COURT: Counsel, both of you need to behave. 10 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm behaving, your Honor. It's a narrative -- 11 THE COURT: I understand. Just one word objection. 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: 404(b). 13 THE COURT: All right. I'll let the answer in as it is. Next question. 14 BY MS. COMEY: 15 Q. Carolyn, what have you been told by the government to do here today? 16 A. Just tell the truth. 17 MS. COMEY: No further questions. 18 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018851 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 254 of 264 1695 LC7Cmax8 1 THE COURT: Mr. Pagliucca. 2 RECROSS EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 4 Q. The $446,000 that you received in 2009, that was gone by 2012; correct? 5 A. I don't know, sir. I have children that I take care of. 6 Q. The $446,000 was gone by 2012; correct? 7 MS. COMEY: Beyond the scope, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Overruled. 9 A. I do not recall the dates. 10 Q. You don't recall when you ran out of $446,000? 11 A. I bought a house, a car, food. I don't recall. 12 Q. And you lost all of it; correct? 13 A. Absolutely not. 14 MR. PAGLIUCA: No further questions, your Honor. 15 MS. COMEY: Nothing, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: All right. Carolyn, you may step down, you are excused. Thank you. 17 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 18 (Witness excused) 19 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we're about two minutes over. Thank you for your attention and diligence. 20 We'll resume same time tomorrow. Thank you so much. 21 (Continued on next page) 22 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 23 DOJ-OGR-00013267 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 254 of 264 1695 LC7Cmax8 1 THE COURT: Mr. Pagliucca. 2 RECROSS EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. PAGLIUCA: 4 Q. The $446,000 that you received in 2009, that was gone by 2012; correct? 5 A. I don't know, sir. I have children that I take care of. 6 Q. The $446,000 was gone by 2012; correct? 7 MS. COMEY: Beyond the scope, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Overruled. 9 A. I do not recall the dates. 10 Q. You don't recall when you ran out of $446,000? 11 A. I bought a house, a car, food. I don't recall. 12 Q. And you lost all of it; correct? 13 A. Absolutely not. 14 MR. PAGLIUCA: No further questions, your Honor. 15 MS. COMEY: Nothing, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: All right. Carolyn, you may step down, you are excused. Thank you. 17 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 18 (Witness excused) 19 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we're about two minutes over. Thank you for your attention and diligence. 20 We'll resume same time tomorrow. Thank you so much. 21 (Continued on next page) 22 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 23 DOJ-OGR-00018852 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 255 of 264 LC7Cmax8 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: You my be seated. Matters to take up. 3 MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, the government has an update on its factual development with regard to the witness, Brian. The government is not going to be able to complete a factual investigation by 6 o'clock. Specifically, Jane's counsel is not available, so the government won't be able to talk with Jane as part of this. The government will just elect not to call Brian as a witness. We'll of course produce the materials we have gathered to the defense tonight. 4 5 And I would just like to make a record that the government does not believe that any rule or order of the Court has been violated and the government's decision should not be understood in that light. 6 7 THE COURT: Anything, Ms. Menninger? 8 MS. MENNINGER: No, your Honor. 9 10 THE COURT: Any other matters to take up? 11 MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, just if we could get a bit of the preview of the witness order since I think things have shuffled a bit in light of developments today. 12 13 THE COURT: Can you give defense counsel a new witness list? 14 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor, we can that this evening. 15 16 THE COURT: I'll note, the Court did receive a request for a docketing of the witness list. The government submitted 17 18 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 19 DOJ-OGR-00013268 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 255 of 264 LC7Cmax8 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: You my be seated. Matters to take up. 3 MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, the government has an update on its factual development with regard to the witness, Brian. The government is not going to be able to complete a factual investigation by 6 o'clock. Specifically, Jane's counsel is not available, so the government won't be able to talk with Jane as part of this. The government will just elect not to call Brian as a witness. We'll of course produce the materials we have gathered to the defense tonight. 4 5 And I would just like to make a record that the government does not believe that any rule or order of the Court has been violated and the government's decision should not be understood in that light. 6 7 THE COURT: Anything, Ms. Menninger? 8 MS. MENNINGER: No, your Honor. 9 10 THE COURT: Any other matters to take up? 11 MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, just if we could get a bit of the preview of the witness order since I think things have shuffled a bit in light of developments today. 12 13 THE COURT: Can you give defense counsel a new witness list? 14 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor, we can that this evening. 15 16 THE COURT: I'll note, the Court did receive a request for a docketing of the witness list. The government submitted 17 18 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 19 DOJ-OGR-00018853 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 256 of 264 1697 LC7Cmax8 that with a request to file it under seal on the theory that it's not a judicial document, as I'm not doing anything with it, and even if it is a judicial document, it contains the names, it's identifying as to individuals who are testifying under pseudonym and individuals who haven't testified yet. For that reason, I'll permit it to be maintained under seal if you do share it with the Court. MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. With respect to scheduling -- I'm sorry, may I have just one moment? THE COURT: Yes. MS. MOE: Your Honor, with respect to scheduling, we did want to update the Court and counsel that we do anticipate that, given the current pace of scheduling, we will rest this week. So we want to let the Court know that, for scheduling purposes, giving the timing of the trial, that's our current update and estimate. THE COURT: That's helpful. I wanted to talk about the timing of the charging conference. MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: Let me just pull up my calendar. Let me ask defense counsel, in light of that and in light of the fact that I'm, due to a scheduling conflict, not sitting 13th, 14th, 15th -- let me run this as an option. I have inquired whether we can hold the charging conference on SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013269 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 256 of 264 1697 LC7Cmax8 that with a request to file it under seal on the theory that it's not a judicial document, as I'm not doing anything with it, and even if it is a judicial document, it contains the names, it's identifying as to individuals who are testifying under pseudonym and individuals who haven't testified yet. For that reason, I'll permit it to be maintained under seal if you do share it with the Court. MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. With respect to scheduling -- I'm sorry, may I have just one moment? THE COURT: Yes. MS. MOE: Your Honor, with respect to scheduling, we did want to update the Court and counsel that we do anticipate that, given the current pace of scheduling, we will rest this week. So we want to let the Court know that, for scheduling purposes, giving the timing of the trial, that's our current update and estimate. THE COURT: That's helpful. I wanted to talk about the timing of the charging conference. MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: Let me just pull up my calendar. Let me ask defense counsel, in light of that and in light of the fact that I'm, due to a scheduling conflict, not sitting 13th, 14th, 15th -- let me run this as an option. I have inquired whether we can hold the charging conference on SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018854 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 257 of 264 LC7Cmax8 1 Saturday the 18th. It is possible to have Ms. Maxwell present 2 and to make public access available on that weekend date. So 3 you can consider if you'd like to do that or not, given where 4 we are in the schedule. I'll leave it to counsel to consider 5 it and confer. Alternatively, I suppose we could talk about 6 the charging conference on the 16th after we finish with the 7 jury. Any thoughts? 8 MS. MOE: Your Honor, the government has no preference 9 between those two dates and would be available for a December 10 18th conference. I think the timing would just depend on the 11 length and pace of the defense case. For example, if the 12 defense case were to begin on Friday, depending on how long 13 that defense case were to last, it may be that we might need to 14 have that conference earlier, but we don't have a sense of the 15 length of the defense case, and so it's hard for us to gauge 16 the timing. 17 MR. EVERDELL: May we confer, your Honor? 18 THE COURT: You may. Let me ask, does the government 19 anticipate -- I know it's a little hard to predict, but do you 20 predict resting potentially by Thursday such that -- 21 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. It just depends on the 22 length of cross of the remaining witnesses, but I think it is 23 possible we will be resting on Thursday. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MS. MOE: Thursday of this week. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013270 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 257 of 264 LC7Cmax8 1 Saturday the 18th. It is possible to have Ms. Maxwell present 2 and to make public access available on that weekend date. So 3 you can consider if you'd like to do that or not, given where 4 we are in the schedule. I'll leave it to counsel to consider 5 it and confer. Alternatively, I suppose we could talk about 6 the charging conference on the 16th after we finish with the 7 jury. Any thoughts? 8 MS. MOE: Your Honor, the government has no preference 9 between those two dates and would be available for a December 10 18th conference. I think the timing would just depend on the 11 length and pace of the defense case. For example, if the 12 defense case were to begin on Friday, depending on how long 13 that defense case were to last, it may be that we might need to 14 have that conference earlier, but we don't have a sense of the 15 length of the defense case, and so it's hard for us to gauge 16 the timing. 17 MR. EVERDELL: May we confer, your Honor? 18 THE COURT: You may. Let me ask, does the government 19 anticipate -- I know it's a little hard to predict, but do you 20 predict resting potentially by Thursday such that -- 21 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. It just depends on the 22 length of cross of the remaining witnesses, but I think it is 23 possible we will be resting on Thursday. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MS. MOE: Thursday of this week. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018855 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 258 of 264 1699 LC7Cmax8 1 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, we do have witnesses, so 2 we're going to have to sort through some logistics ourselves. 3 THE COURT: I understand that. 4 MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, I think maybe if we have 5 the opportunity to confer with the government, we can report 6 tomorrow on the options. 7 THE COURT: That's fine. I wanted to make that 8 available so that we're not -- so we have time for it that 9 isn't intruding into the time of the jury next week. So I 10 think in light of what you're indicating, my thinking would be 11 either the evening of the 16th or 17th, or Saturday the 18th. 12 Again, I have inquired and there is no issue, 13 Ms. Maxwell can be here and we can have public access both in 14 the courtroom and overflow room. So you'll confer and let me 15 know your thinking as to timing. 16 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Other matters to take up? 18 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, on that point, I would 19 like to point out that we do have a younger sibling of Jane 20 under our subpoena and I would ask, because we don't have 21 communications with that witness, that when there are 22 communications with Jane and her attorney, that she be directed 23 not to communicate about her testimony with that witness in 24 light of issues that I think are apparent that I can certainly 25 make a record if need be. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013271 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 258 of 264 1699 LC7Cmax8 1 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, we do have witnesses, so 2 we're going to have to sort through some logistics ourselves. 3 THE COURT: I understand that. 4 MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, I think maybe if we have 5 the opportunity to confer with the government, we can report 6 tomorrow on the options. 7 THE COURT: That's fine. I wanted to make that 8 available so that we're not -- so we have time for it that 9 isn't intruding into the time of the jury next week. So I 10 think in light of what you're indicating, my thinking would be 11 either the evening of the 16th or 17th, or Saturday the 18th. 12 Again, I have inquired and there is no issue, 13 Ms. Maxwell can be here and we can have public access both in 14 the courtroom and overflow room. So you'll confer and let me 15 know your thinking as to timing. 16 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Other matters to take up? 18 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, on that point, I would 19 like to point out that we do have a younger sibling of Jane 20 under our subpoena and I would ask, because we don't have 21 communications with that witness, that when there are 22 communications with Jane and her attorney, that she be directed 23 not to communicate about her testimony with that witness in 24 light of issues that I think are apparent that I can certainly 25 make a record if need be. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018856 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 259 of 264 1700 LC7Cmax8 1 MS. MOE: Your Honor, I have no issue with reaching 2 out to Jane's attorney to remind him, again, about that issue. 3 Happy to do that this evening. 4 With respect to outstanding defense subpoenas, since 5 we're talking about this issue, my understanding at this 6 juncture is, because the witness identified as Matt has now 7 testified, the witness identified as Brian is no longer 8 testifying, that there will be no additional prior consistent 9 statements with respect to Jane. We want to confirm that the 10 defense is not seeking to recall Jane regarding any prior 11 consistent statements so that she can be released for recall. 12 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, we would like to just 13 think about it tonight and can certainly let the Court know 14 tomorrow. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: I'll ask you to confer and if it's an 18 issue, raise it in the morning. Thank you for raising it, 19 Ms. Moe. 20 MS. MOE: Thank you. 21 THE COURT: Any other matters? 22 MS. MOE: Not from the government, your Honor. Thank 23 you. 24 MR. PAGLIUCA: I just needed to make a record on the 25 objections. I can do that tomorrow if the Court wants me to, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013272 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 259 of 264 LC7Cmax8 1 MS. MOE: Your Honor, I have no issue with reaching 2 out to Jane's attorney to remind him, again, about that issue. 3 Happy to do that this evening. 4 With respect to outstanding defense subpoenas, since 5 we're talking about this issue, my understanding at this 6 juncture is, because the witness identified as Matt has now 7 testified, the witness identified as Brian is no longer 8 testifying, that there will be no additional prior consistent 9 statements with respect to Jane. We want to confirm that the 10 defense is not seeking to recall Jane regarding any prior 11 consistent statements so that she can be released for recall. 12 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, we would like to just 13 think about it tonight and can certainly let the Court know 14 tomorrow. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: I'll ask you to confer and if it's an 18 issue, raise it in the morning. Thank you for raising it, 19 Ms. Moe. 20 MS. MOE: Thank you. 21 THE COURT: Any other matters? 22 MS. MOE: Not from the government, your Honor. Thank 23 you. 24 MR. PAGLIUCA: I just needed to make a record on the 25 objections. I can do that tomorrow if the Court wants me to, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018857 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 260 of 264 1701 LC7Cmax8 1 if the Court wants to leave. It's very brief. 2 THE COURT: Go ahead. 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: So this is on the privilege objection, your Honor. The statement did not call for a communication. 4 This was a request about materials shown to the witness in anticipation meeting with the government. Those are not 5 privileged communications given that, whatever it is, is intended to be communicated to a third party, number 1, and 6 number 2 -- 7 THE COURT: Well, I don't think you've made a record that any -- you asked generally about any materials shown to 8 her. I don't think you've made a record that any materials shown to her were in anticipation of being -- how did you 9 phrase it? Discussed with the government in the meeting? 10 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, the Court sustained the objection and ordered me to move on, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: I understand. I'm just -- 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: There was no opportunity to further that. 13 THE COURT: Right. To be clear, I think the question was whether she was shown materials by her attorney, privilege 14 objection sustained. There may have been other questions, I suppose that would have been different than that, but I 15 sustained with respect to that question. 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: So, I'm not arguing with your Honor. 17 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 18 DOJ-OGR-00013273 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 260 of 264 LC7Cmax8 1 if the Court wants to leave. It's very brief. 2 THE COURT: Go ahead. 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: So this is on the privilege objection, your Honor. The statement did not call for a communication. 5 This was a request about materials shown to the witness in anticipation meeting with the government. Those are not 6 privileged communications given that, whatever it is, is intended to be communicated to a third party, number 1, and 7 number 2 -- 8 9 THE COURT: Well, I don't think you've made a record that any -- you asked generally about any materials shown to 10 her. I don't think you've made a record that any materials shown to her were in anticipation of being -- how did you 11 phrase it? Discussed with the government in the meeting? 12 13 MR. PAGLIUCA: Well, the Court sustained the objection and ordered me to move on, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: I understand. I'm just -- 15 16 MR. PAGLIUCA: There was no opportunity to further that. 17 18 THE COURT: Right. To be clear, I think the question was whether she was shown materials by her attorney, privilege 19 objection sustained. There may have been other questions, I suppose that would have been different than that, but I 20 sustained with respect to that question. 21 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: So, I'm not arguing with your Honor. 23 24 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018858 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 261 of 264 1702 LC7Cmax8 1 I'm just completing out the record here, which is the question does not call for a privilege communication. It's a yes-or-no answer. Yes, I was shown materials. I don't believe that's privileged because there is no communication required, number 1. 2 Number 2, in the event those materials are shown to the government in a meeting, they lose any putative privilege that they may have. 3 Number 3, to the extent that they're intended to be communicated to a third party, they are not privileged to begin with, even if they're not shown to the third party. I believe that's the status of the law and that's my record. Thank you. 4 THE COURT: Again, you might have been able to get there, but the question that you asked, I sustained on privilege. 5 Next, anything? 6 MS. MOE: Not from the government, your Honor. Thank you. 7 MR. EVERDELL: No, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Was there another issue you wanted to make a record on, Mr. Pagliuca? 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: I don't think -- 10 THE COURT: If it occurs to you, you can make it in the morning. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 12 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13 DOJ-OGR-00013274 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 261 of 264 1702 LC7Cmax8 1 I'm just completing out the record here, which is the question does not call for a privilege communication. It's a yes-or-no answer. Yes, I was shown materials. I don't believe that's privileged because there is no communication required, number 1. 2 Number 2, in the event those materials are shown to the government in a meeting, they lose any putative privilege that they may have. 3 Number 3, to the extent that they're intended to be communicated to a third party, they are not privileged to begin with, even if they're not shown to the third party. I believe that's the status of the law and that's my record. Thank you. 4 THE COURT: Again, you might have been able to get there, but the question that you asked, I sustained on privilege. 5 Next, anything? 6 MS. MOE: Not from the government, your Honor. Thank you. 7 MR. EVERDELL: No, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Was there another issue you wanted to make a record on, Mr. Pagliuca? 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: I don't think -- 10 THE COURT: If it occurs to you, you can make it in the morning. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: Thank you, your Honor. 12 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13 DOJ-OGR-00018859 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 262 of 264 1703 LC7Cmax8 1 THE COURT: I do just want to, in an admonishment, because this has gotten a little out of hand. Objection, one-word grounds. Cite a rule of evidence if a rule of evidence is available. If it's not, then you probably don't have a basis for your objection. But if a rule number can't be used, one-word basis for grounds. No more communicating to the witnesses or the jury via objections. Understood? 8 MS. COMEY: Yes, your Honor. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Thank you. Have a goodnight, everyone. I'll see you -- sorry. Sorry. 12 So we don't need any of the briefing related to the witness. So I think I'm not expecting anything tonight; is that true? It's like saying, oh, look, no traffic, but -- 15 MS. MOE: Nothing anticipated from the government, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MS. MENNINGER: Nor from us. 19 THE COURT: I thank everyone. Goodnight. 20 (Adjourned to December 8, 2021 at 8:45 a.m.) 21 * * * 24 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 25 DOJ-OGR-00013275 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 262 of 264 1703 LC7Cmax8 1 THE COURT: I do just want to, in an admonishment, because this has gotten a little out of hand. Objection, one-word grounds. Cite a rule of evidence if a rule of evidence is available. If it's not, then you probably don't have a basis for your objection. But if a rule number can't be used, one-word basis for grounds. No more communicating to the witnesses or the jury via objections. Understood? 8 MS. COMEY: Yes, your Honor. 9 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Thank you. Have a goodnight, everyone. I'll see you -- sorry. Sorry. 12 So we don't need any of the briefing related to the witness. So I think I'm not expecting anything tonight; is that true? It's like saying, oh, look, no traffic, but -- 15 MS. MOE: Nothing anticipated from the government, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MS. MENNINGER: Nor from us. 19 THE COURT: I thank everyone. Goodnight. 20 (Adjourned to December 8, 2021 at 8:45 a.m.) 21 * * * 24 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 25 DOJ-OGR-00018860 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 263 of 264 1704 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Examination of: Page 3 KIMBERLY MEDER 4 Direct By Ms. Comey . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1444 5 Cross By Ms. Menninger . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1464 6 Redirect By Ms. Comey . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1472 7 STEPHEN FLATLEY 8 Direct By Ms. Pomerantz . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1473 9 Cross By Ms. Menninger . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1496 10 Redirect By Ms. Pomerantz . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1507 11 Recross By Ms. Menninger . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1507 12 CAROLYN 13 Direct By Ms. Comey . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1512 14 Cross By Mr. Pagliuca . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1562 15 Redirect By Ms. Comey . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1692 16 Recross By Mr. Pagliuca . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1695 17 18 Exhibit No. Received 19 304 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1446 20 306 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1447 21 307 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1448 22 320 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1448 23 321 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1449 24 322 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1450 25 324 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1451 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013276 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 263 of 264 1704 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Examination of: Page 3 KIMBERLY MEDER 4 Direct By Ms. Comey . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1444 5 Cross By Ms. Menninger . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1464 6 Redirect By Ms. Comey . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1472 7 STEPHEN FLATLEY 8 Direct By Ms. Pomerantz . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1473 9 Cross By Ms. Menninger . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1496 10 Redirect By Ms. Pomerantz . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1507 11 Recross By Ms. Menninger . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1507 12 CAROLYN 13 Direct By Ms. Comey . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1512 14 Cross By Mr. Pagliuca . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1562 15 Redirect By Ms. Comey . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1692 16 Recross By Mr. Pagliuca . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1695 17 18 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS Received 19 304 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1446 20 306 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1447 21 307 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1448 22 320 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1448 23 321 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1449 24 322 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1450 25 324 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1451 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018861 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 264 of 264 1705 1 325 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1452 2 333 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1453 3 337 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1454 4 340 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1454 5 341 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1455 6 343 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1457 7 347 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1458 8 348 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1459 9 314 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1460 10 317 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1461 11 318 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1461 12 313 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1463 13 332 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1464 14 419 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1479 15 424 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1481 16 418, 418R . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1486 17 418B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1487 18 420, 421, 422 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1488 19 420B, 421B, 422B . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1489 20 20 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1517 21 104 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1526 22 608 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1529 23 24 Exhibit No. PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS Received 25 342 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1456 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013277 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 753 Filed 08/10/22 Page 264 of 264 1705 1 325 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1452 2 333 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1453 3 337 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1454 4 340 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1454 5 341 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1455 6 343 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1457 7 347 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1458 8 348 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1459 9 314 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1460 10 317 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1461 11 318 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1461 12 313 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1463 13 332 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1464 14 419 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1479 15 424 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1481 16 418, 418R . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1486 17 418B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1487 18 420, 421, 422 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1488 19 420B, 421B, 422B . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1489 20 20 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1517 21 104 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1526 22 608 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1529 23 24 Exhibit No. PLAINTIFF EXHIBITS Received 25 342 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1456 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00018862