Document 759

Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 1 of 267 2028 LCACmax1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK -------------------------------x UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, v. 20 CR 330 (AJN) GHISLAINE MAXWELL, Defendant. Jury Trial -------------------------------x New York, N.Y. December 10, 2021 8:55 a.m. Before: HON. ALISON J. NATHAN, District Judge APPEARANCES DAMIAN WILLIAMS United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York BY: MAURENE COMEY ALISON MOE LARA POMERANTZ ANDREW ROHRBACH Assistant United States Attorneys HADDON MORGAN AND FOREMAN Attorneys for Defendant BY: JEFFREY S. PAGLIUCA LAURA A. MENNINGER -and- BOBBI C. STERNHEIM -and- COHEN & GRESSER BY: CHRISTIAN R. EVERDELL Also Present: Amanda Young, FBI Paul Byrne, NYPD Sunny Drescher, Paralegal, U.S. Attorney's Office Ann Lundberg, Paralegal, Haddon Morgan and Foreman SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013592 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 1 of 267 2028 LCACmax1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK -------------------------------x UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, v. 20 CR 330 (AJN) GHISLAINE MAXWELL, Defendant. Jury Trial -------------------------------x New York, N.Y. December 10, 2021 8:55 a.m. Before: HON. ALISON J. NATHAN, District Judge APPEARANCES DAMIAN WILLIAMS United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York BY: MAURENE COMEY ALISON MOE LARA POMERANTZ ANDREW ROHRBACH Assistant United States Attorneys HADDON MORGAN AND FOREMAN Attorneys for Defendant BY: JEFFREY S. PAGLIUCA LAURA A. MENNINGER -and- BOBBI C. STERNHEIM -and- COHEN & GRESSER BY: CHRISTIAN R. EVERDELL Also Present: Amanda Young, FBI Paul Byrne, NYPD Sunny Drescher, Paralegal, U.S. Attorney's Office Ann Lundberg, Paralegal, Haddon Morgan and Foreman SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016217 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 2 of 267 2029 LCACmax1 1 THE COURT: Good morning, everyone. Good to see everyone. Matters to take up, counsel? 2 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. Thank you. Just a housekeeping matter with respect to Government Exhibit 52. We just wanted to clarify, before we offered the excerpts, that we would be offering Government Exhibit 52 and its subparts pursuant to a stipulation that they are true and accurate photocopies. I just wanted to make sure we clarified that before we offered it at the beginning of the court day. 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm not sure if we're saying the same thing. I understood that 52 was being offered foundationally, which is the entire document, and that then there are the excerpts that were being offered into evidence for the jury. That was my understanding of the process that we were doing. 4 THE COURT: Ms. Moe, it's your exhibit. 5 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. I think the way in which we're proposing handling this would be similar in the way we handled the message pads, which is part of the authentication, involves the message pads themselves. So those exhibits were offered and also the subparts as marked exhibit -- 6 THE COURT: I think you are then saying the same thing. 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. So you'll move 52 in its entirety. There is a stipulation as to the accuracy of the 8 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9 DOJ-OGR-00013593 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 2 of 267 2029 LCACmax1 1 THE COURT: Good morning, everyone. Good to see everyone. Matters to take up, counsel? 2 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. Thank you. Just a housekeeping matter with respect to Government Exhibit 52. We just wanted to clarify, before we offered the excerpts, that we would be offering Government Exhibit 52 and its subparts pursuant to a stipulation that they are true and accurate photocopies. I just wanted to make sure we clarified that before we offered it at the beginning of the court day. 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: I'm not sure if we're saying the same thing. I understood that 52 was being offered foundationally, which is the entire document, and that then there are the excerpts that were being offered into evidence for the jury. That was my understanding of the process that we were doing. 4 THE COURT: Ms. Moe, it's your exhibit. 5 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. I think the way in which we're proposing handling this would be similar in the way we handled the message pads, which is part of the authentication, involves the message pads themselves. So those exhibits were offered and also the subparts as marked exhibit -- 6 THE COURT: I think you are then saying the same thing. 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: Okay. So you'll move 52 in its entirety. There is a stipulation as to the accuracy of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016218 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 3 of 267 2030 LCACmax1 1 copies on the subset of exhibits by letter, and you'll move those, as well. 2 3 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: I guess my question, your Honor, is what's going -- 5 6 THE COURT: Hang on a second. 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: -- to the jury is really the question. 8 My belief, when we address this with the witness, was the government was not offering the entirety of 52, the government 9 was offering the photocopies of the various pages, and that was the exhibit that was being admitted to the jury, and that's, I 10 think, a significant distinction here. 11 12 THE COURT: So you're opposing movement of the -- 13 obviously, you've objected. To any event, I've overruled, but even after that, you have an objection to moving the whole 14 thing to the jury or you just think it's inconsistent with how it's been discussed or I suppose inconsistent with how it was 15 discussed at the time it was moved? 16 17 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. We had this colloquy. The government simply moved to admit the -- I think it's five 18 pages. That was the extent of the admission. My suggestion, because we were dealing with the foundation issues, was that we 19 would have that exhibit, we would agree to the copies being admitted per the government's request, but I wanted the actual 20 exhibit as part of the record for any necessary appellate 21 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013594 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 3 of 267 2030 LCACmax1 1 copies on the subset of exhibits by letter, and you'll move those, as well. 2 3 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: I guess my question, your Honor, is what's going -- 5 6 THE COURT: Hang on a second. 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: -- to the jury is really the question. 8 My belief, when we address this with the witness, was the government was not offering the entirety of 52, the government 9 was offering the photocopies of the various pages, and that was the exhibit that was being admitted to the jury, and that's, I 10 think, a significant distinction here. 11 12 THE COURT: So you're opposing movement of the -- 13 obviously, you've objected. To any event, I've overruled, but even after that, you have an objection to moving the whole 14 thing to the jury or you just think it's inconsistent with how it's been discussed or I suppose inconsistent with how it was 15 discussed at the time it was moved? 16 17 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. We had this colloquy. The government simply moved to admit the -- I think it's five 18 pages. That was the extent of the admission. My suggestion, because we were dealing with the foundation issues, was that we 19 would have that exhibit, we would agree to the copies being admitted per the government's request, but I wanted the actual 20 exhibit as part of the record for any necessary appellate SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016219 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 4 of 267 2031 LCACmax1 issues. And that's how I understood this was being addressed. THE COURT: Well, you want all of 52 as an exhibit for the appellate record, but you don't want the jury to get all of 52? MR. PAGLIUCA: I think there are a couple of problems. Certainly, we didn't cross examine on the entirety of 52, because I understood that 52, in its entirety, was not being admitted. So I think that's problem number 1. There are also problems, I think, simply with relevance related to the rest of the exhibit, and there were discrete portions that the government said the government was contending were relevant and not the other portions. So the book is however many pages it is, but I think it's outside of what was appropriate for cross examination at the time. THE COURT: My clerk is sending me the portion of the transcript. I can't tell if you're in disagreement yet or not, Ms. Moe. MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. I think the issue is more that because the weight and authenticity of this exhibit has now been put in dispute, I don't know how the jurors would evaluate the testimony about its contents, the format, in order to evaluate its authenticity or weight without the object itself. That's what we wanted to clarify about whether that would be part of the record. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013595 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 4 of 267 2031 LCACmax1 issues. And that's how I understood this was being addressed. THE COURT: Well, you want all of 52 as an exhibit for the appellate record, but you don't want the jury to get all of 52? MR. PAGLIUCA: I think there are a couple of problems. Certainly, we didn't cross examine on the entirety of 52, because I understood that 52, in its entirety, was not being admitted. So I think that's problem number 1. There are also problems, I think, simply with relevance related to the rest of the exhibit, and there were discrete portions that the government said the government was contending were relevant and not the other portions. So the book is however many pages it is, but I think it's outside of what was appropriate for cross examination at the time. THE COURT: My clerk is sending me the portion of the transcript. I can't tell if you're in disagreement yet or not, Ms. Moe. MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. I think the issue is more that because the weight and authenticity of this exhibit has now been put in dispute, I don't know how the jurors would evaluate the testimony about its contents, the format, in order to evaluate its authenticity or weight without the object itself. That's what we wanted to clarify about whether that would be part of the record. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016220 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 5 of 267 2032 LCACmax1 1 THE COURT: You say now it's been put in dispute. It 2 was certainly in dispute at the time you moved. So we'll see 3 what was moved and go from there. 4 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. Thank you. 5 THE COURT: I have the parties proposed limiting 6 instruction, which looks just right to me. So thank you. 7 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. And aside from this 8 matter, there are no additional matters this morning. 9 MS. MENNINGER: I was going to propose that your Honor 10 handle the limiting instruction for Ms. Farmer's testimony in 11 the same way that we handled it for Kate in that she would be 12 brought into the witness stand and the Court would read that 13 limiting instruction so the jury can identify the person about 14 who the limiting instruction is being given. 15 THE COURT: I think we indicated yesterday before the 16 break that we would do it the same way. 17 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: There is another issue, your Honor, to 19 a newly disclosed witness as of last night or yesterday 20 evening. The witness's name is William Brown, as I understand 21 it. He is, I would say, record custodian for DMV related to 22 the identity of an individual that has the same name. 23 THE COURT: Same first name? 24 MR. PAGLIUCA: Correct. 25 THE COURT: As Jane? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013596 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 5 of 267 2032 LCACmax1 1 THE COURT: You say now it's been put in dispute. It 2 was certainly in dispute at the time you moved. So we'll see 3 what was moved and go from there. 4 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. Thank you. 5 THE COURT: I have the parties proposed limiting 6 instruction, which looks just right to me. So thank you. 7 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. And aside from this 8 matter, there are no additional matters this morning. 9 MS. MENNINGER: I was going to propose that your Honor 10 handle the limiting instruction for Ms. Farmer's testimony in 11 the same way that we handled it for Kate in that she would be 12 brought into the witness stand and the Court would read that 13 limiting instruction so the jury can identify the person about 14 who the limiting instruction is being given. 15 THE COURT: I think we indicated yesterday before the 16 break that we would do it the same way. 17 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 18 MR. PAGLIUCA: There is another issue, your Honor, to 19 a newly disclosed witness as of last night or yesterday 20 evening. The witness's name is William Brown, as I understand 21 it. He is, I would say, record custodian for DMV related to 22 the identity of an individual that has the same name. 23 THE COURT: Same first name? 24 MR. PAGLIUCA: Correct. 25 THE COURT: As Jane? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016221 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 6 of 267 2033 LCACmax1 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. So we are objecting to the late 2 endorsement and the calling of the witness, first on simply 3 disclosure issues, but second, I'm unclear of the relevance, 4 given the lack of any, I'll call it, tying to any actual 5 testimony. 6 We're going to get a DMV record, as I understand it, from this witness that no one else who has testified has ever 8 done any comparator between whatever is in the DMV record and 9 either photographs or other information about the witness that 10 Mr. Rodgers talked about. So I don't think there has been a 11 linkup for relevance purposes. 12 So we object on the basis of relevance to this witness 13 being called, as well. 14 THE COURT: Who will handle this one? 15 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. This exhibit and this 16 evidence is directly responsive to an issue raised by the 17 defense in their cross examination of both pilots in this case. 18 As the Court may recall, defense counsel suggested 19 that the Jane in the records in the 1990s could potentially be 20 the person with the first name Jane from the 2000s. We have 21 produced in discovery, and is nontesting witness materials, 22 ample material that makes it clear that could not possibly -- 23 and in response to the suggestion that it might be this 24 different person, we now need to clarify the record on that. 25 As defense counsel knows, the second Jane from the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013597 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 6 of 267 2033 LCACmax1 1 MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes. So we are objecting to the late 2 endorsement and the calling of the witness, first on simply 3 disclosure issues, but second, I'm unclear of the relevance, 4 given the lack of any, I'll call it, tying to any actual 5 testimony. 6 We're going to get a DMV record, as I understand it, from 7 this witness that no one else who has testified has ever 8 done any comparator between whatever is in the DMV record and 9 either photographs or other information about the witness that 10 Mr. Rodgers talked about. So I don't think there has been a 11 linkup for relevance purposes. 12 So we object on the basis of relevance to this witness 13 being called, as well. 14 THE COURT: Who will handle this one? 15 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. This exhibit and this 16 evidence is directly responsive to an issue raised by the 17 defense in their cross examination of both pilots in this case. 18 As the Court may recall, defense counsel suggested 19 that the Jane in the records in the 1990s could potentially be 20 the person with the first name Jane from the 2000s. We have 21 produced in discovery, and is nontesting witness materials, 22 ample material that makes it clear that could not possibly -- 23 and in response to the suggestion that it might be this 24 different person, we now need to clarify the record on that. 25 As defense counsel knows, the second Jane from the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016222 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 7 of 267 2034 LCACmax1 2000s wasn't even in the United States in the 1990s. In fact, her date of birth and age makes clear that she could not be an adult in the 1990s on that flight -- THE COURT: It's a rebuttal witness. MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: On the disclosure front, I suppose if they want to make you wait and do it in rebuttal -- why you want to do that, I'm not sure, but on the disclosure front, it's clearly a rebuttal witness. I don't think someone that they could have anticipated needing but for the arguments put forward by the defense, you tell me if I'm wrong, but I'd certainly let -- on the disclosure front, I'd let the government call the person as a rebuttal witness. Whether we do that now or in rebuttal, I suppose, is -- I'll hear from both sides on that question. And then relevance, I think you've indicated the rebuttal relevance of the evidence you're seeking to get in? MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. On the disclosure front, I want to make clear we produced this exhibit the same day we received it. We were on equal footing with the defense here. In terms of the content of the testimony in the exhibit, it's just a picture and date of birth, which is information the defense has had or for a very long time now. It's a person that the defendant herself knows. So I don't think there is any surprise or mystery SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013598 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 7 of 267 2034 LCACmax1 1 2000s wasn't even in the United States in the 1990s. In fact, 2 her date of birth and age makes clear that she could not be an 3 adult in the 1990s on that flight -- 4 THE COURT: It's a rebuttal witness. 5 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: On the disclosure front, I suppose if they 7 want to make you wait and do it in rebuttal -- why you want to 8 do that, I'm not sure, but on the disclosure front, it's 9 clearly a rebuttal witness. I don't think someone that they 10 could have anticipated needing but for the arguments put 11 forward by the defense, you tell me if I'm wrong, but I'd 12 certainly let -- on the disclosure front, I'd let the 13 government call the person as a rebuttal witness. Whether we 14 do that now or in rebuttal, I suppose, is -- I'll hear from 15 both sides on that question. 16 And then relevance, I think you've indicated the 17 rebuttal relevance of the evidence you're seeking to get in? 18 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. On the disclosure front, I 19 want to make clear we produced this exhibit the same day we 20 received it. We were on equal footing with the defense here. 21 In terms of the content of the testimony in the exhibit, it's 22 just a picture and date of birth, which is information the 23 defense has had or for a very long time now. It's a person 24 that the defendant herself knows. 25 So I don't think there is any surprise or mystery SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016223 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 8 of 267 2035 LCACmax1 1 about a photograph of this defendant -- of this person which is 2 the same as the photograph the defense has already offered and 3 connecting that up with her date of birth, which is information 4 that is not a mystery to the defense, they've been in 5 possession of that information for a long time now through 6 discovery. So we're both on equal footing. We promptly 7 complied with our discovery obligations. There is no surprise 8 in the substance of this testimony or the exhibit. 9 10 So we would like to correct the record before the jury 11 now because there is no basis to suggest to this jury that the 12 person in the 1990s flights is Jane. That is misleading and we 13 would like to clarify that today. 14 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, if the Court is going to 16 allow it on rebuttal, it makes sense to do it now. I don't see 17 why we would need to delay the witness. So if the Court is 18 going to allow it, I would just -- 19 20 THE COURT: I'll allow it. It is rebuttal. The 21 relevance is that the defense has suggested that, with both 22 pilot witnesses, that the person they either remember to have 23 the first name -- same first name as Jane or listed on 24 Mr. Rodgers' log as having the same first name as Jane wasn't, 25 in fact, Jane. 26 27 I understand the government's proffer to be that they 28 have evidence that shows this other person who has the same 29 first name as Jane would not have been -- whose age and also 30 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013599 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 8 of 267 2035 LCACmax1 1 about a photograph of this defendant -- of this person which is 2 the same as the photograph the defense has already offered and 3 connecting that up with her date of birth, which is information 4 that is not a mystery to the defense, they've been in 5 possession of that information for a long time now through 6 discovery. So we're both on equal footing. We promptly 7 complied with our discovery obligations. There is no surprise 8 in the substance of this testimony or the exhibit. 9 10 So we would like to correct the record before the jury 11 now because there is no basis to suggest to this jury that the 12 person in the 1990s flights is Jane. That is misleading and we 13 would like to clarify that today. 14 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, if the Court is going to 16 allow it on rebuttal, it makes sense to do it now. I don't see 17 why we would need to delay the witness. So if the Court is 18 going to allow it, I would just -- 19 20 THE COURT: I'll allow it. It is rebuttal. The 21 relevance is that the defense has suggested that, with both 22 pilot witnesses, that the person they either remember to have 23 the first name -- same first name as Jane or listed on 24 Mr. Rodgers' log as having the same first name as Jane wasn't, 25 in fact, Jane. 26 27 I understand the government's proffer to be that they 28 have evidence that shows this other person who has the same 29 first name as Jane would not have been -- whose age and also 30 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016224 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 9 of 267 2036 LCACmax1 presence in the U.S. -- is that part of it or just the age? MS. MOE: Just the age. What we're offering is not a travel record. I think the photograph that was offered by defense counsel is of an adult. The testimony with that person was a person -- so her date of birth makes clear that she couldn't have been a personal assistant as an underage girl given her date of birth and given the timing. This would have been in the 2000s. THE COURT: Rebuttal relevance, I think, is apparent. So I will allow it and we can do it now. MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. THE COURT: What else can I take up? MS. MOE: Nothing from the government, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Williams will check on the juror members. While we're gathering that, I would like to speak to the parties at sidebar just as to how to address the jury about the followup from the break yesterday. (Continued on next page) (Page 2037 SEALED) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013600 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 9 of 267 2036 LCACmax1 presence in the U.S. -- is that part of it or just the age? MS. MOE: Just the age. What we're offering is not a travel record. I think the photograph that was offered by defense counsel is of an adult. The testimony with that person was a person -- so her date of birth makes clear that she couldn't have been a personal assistant as an underage girl given her date of birth and given the timing. This would have been in the 2000s. THE COURT: Rebuttal relevance, I think, is apparent. So I will allow it and we can do it now. MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. THE COURT: What else can I take up? MS. MOE: Nothing from the government, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Williams will check on the juror members. While we're gathering that, I would like to speak to the parties at sidebar just as to how to address the jury about the followup from the break yesterday. (Continued on next page) (Page 2037 SEALED) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016225 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 10 of 267 2038 LCACmax1 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: I've looked at the transcript, and the government expressly said it wasn't moving 52 in its entirety. 3 So that's what's in issue and that's what I reserved on. So 4 it's the subletters. Then 52, what's been marked for 5 identification as 52 should be part of the record for purposes 6 of the 901 issue. Okay? 7 8 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. Thank you. 9 THE COURT: But what's been moved are the sub-sheet 10 copies. 11 If nothing else, I'll step down until we have our 12 jury. 13 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Thank you. 15 (Recess) 16 THE COURT: We have our jury. Any reason not to bring 17 them in, counsel? 18 MS. MOE: No, your Honor. Thank you. 19 MS. MENNINGER: No, your Honor. Thank you. 20 THE COURT: Please bring in the jury. 21 (Continued on next page) 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013601 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 10 of 267 2038 LCACmax1 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: I've looked at the transcript, and the government expressly said it wasn't moving 52 in its entirety. 3 So that's what's in issue and that's what I reserved on. So 4 it's the subletters. Then 52, what's been marked for 5 identification as 52 should be part of the record for purposes 6 of the 901 issue. Okay? 7 8 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. Thank you. 9 THE COURT: But what's been moved are the sub-sheet 10 copies. 11 If nothing else, I'll step down until we have our 12 jury. 13 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Thank you. 15 (Recess) 16 THE COURT: We have our jury. Any reason not to bring 17 them in, counsel? 18 MS. MOE: No, your Honor. Thank you. 19 MS. MENNINGER: No, your Honor. Thank you. 20 THE COURT: Please bring in the jury. 21 (Continued on next page) 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016226 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 11 of 267 2039 LCACmax1 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Thank you so much, members of the jury. 3 Appreciate your patience yesterday. I'm very pleased to report 4 all the attorneys are here. Everyone is doing well. So we can 5 continue. 6 Ms. Moe, the government may call its next witness. 7 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. At this time, we 8 would like to read a stipulation between the parties. 9 THE COURT: Go ahead. 10 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. 11 For the record, your Honor, the stipulation is marked 12 Government Exhibit 1009. The stipulation is regarding 13 Government Exhibit 52. 14 THE COURT: Just, without objection? 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: Without objection, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Go ahead. 17 MS. MOE: It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and 18 among the United States of America, by Damien Williams, 19 States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, and 20 Maureen Comey, Alison Moe, Lara Pomerantz, and Andrew Rohrbach, 21 Assistant United States Attorneys of counsel, and defendant, 22 Ghislaine Maxwell, by and with the consent of her attorneys, 23 Christian Everdell, Laura Menninger, Jeffrey Pagliuca, and 24 Bobbi Sternheim, that Government Exhibits 52A, 52D, 52E, 52F, 25 52G, and 52H are true and correct photo copies of six pages of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013602 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 11 of 267 2039 LCACmax1 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Thank you so much, members of the jury. 3 Appreciate your patience yesterday. I'm very pleased to report 4 all the attorneys are here. Everyone is doing well. So we can 5 continue. 6 Ms. Moe, the government may call its next witness. 7 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. At this time, we 8 would like to read a stipulation between the parties. 9 THE COURT: Go ahead. 10 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. 11 For the record, your Honor, the stipulation is marked 12 Government Exhibit 1009. The stipulation is regarding 13 Government Exhibit 52. 14 THE COURT: Just, without objection? 15 MR. PAGLIUCA: Without objection, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Go ahead. 17 MS. MOE: It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and 18 among the United States of America, by Damien Williams, 19 States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, and 20 Maureen Comey, Alison Moe, Lara Pomerantz, and Andrew Rohrbach, 21 Assistant United States Attorneys of counsel, and defendant, 22 Ghislaine Maxwell, by and with the consent of her attorneys, 23 Christian Everdell, Laura Menninger, Jeffrey Pagliuca, and 24 Bobbi Sternheim, that Government Exhibits 52A, 52D, 52E, 52F, 25 52G, and 52H are true and correct photo copies of six pages of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016227 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 12 of 267 2040 LCACmax1 1 Government Exhibit 52. 2 Your Honor, pursuant to this stipulation, the government offers the following exhibits under seal: 3 Government Exhibits 52A, 52D, 52E, 52F, 52G, and 52H. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: Subject to our previous record, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. I am admitting the exhibits just indicated with a limiting instruction. 6 (Government's Exhibits 52A, 52D, 52E, 52F, 52G, and 52H received in evidence) 7 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Members of the jury, the exhibit is being offered for a limited purpose. They were not being offered for the truth of the matters asserted therein, and you may not consider it for that purpose. Rather, you may consider them only to the extent you believe it is relevant to show a link, if any, between Ms. Maxwell and the names and phone numbers listed and how, if at all, the information was organized. 9 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. And may these exhibits be received under seal to protect the identities of witnesses testifying under pseudonyms and the privacy of third parties? 10 THE COURT: No objection to the sealing? 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: No objection. 12 THE COURT: For the reasons indicated, they are SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013603 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 12 of 267 2040 LCACmax1 1 Government Exhibit 52. 2 Your Honor, pursuant to this stipulation, the government offers the following exhibits under seal: 3 Government Exhibits 52A, 52D, 52E, 52F, 52G, and 52H. 4 MR. PAGLIUCA: Subject to our previous record, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. I am admitting the exhibits just indicated with a limiting instruction. 6 (Government's Exhibits 52A, 52D, 52E, 52F, 52G, and 52H received in evidence) 7 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Members of the jury, the exhibit is being offered for a limited purpose. They were not being offered for the truth of the matters asserted therein, and you may not consider it for that purpose. Rather, you may consider them only to the extent you believe it is relevant to show a link, if any, between Ms. Maxwell and the names and phone numbers listed and how, if at all, the information was organized. 9 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. And may these exhibits be received under seal to protect the identities of witnesses testifying under pseudonyms and the privacy of third parties? 10 THE COURT: No objection to the sealing? 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: No objection. 12 THE COURT: For the reasons indicated, they are SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016228 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 13 of 267 2041 LCACmax1 1 admitted under seal. 2 MS. MOE: May the jurors turn to what's now in 3 evidence under seal as Government Exhibits 52G, which is in 4 their binders. 5 THE COURT: Without objection? 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: No objection. 7 THE COURT: Large binders, GX52G, please. 8 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. May the jurors have 9 a moment to read this exhibit. In particular, we would direct 10 the jurors' attention to the entries under massage, Florida, for -- 11 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I object to the direction 13 here. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. They can review the document. 15 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. May we give the 16 jurors a few minutes to read the document in full? 17 THE COURT: Just G? 18 MS. MOE: 52G, your Honor, yes. 19 THE COURT: They can take a moment for 52G, yes. 20 (Pause) 21 Okay. 22 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. Finally, we would 23 offer Government Exhibit 1009. This stipulation is a public 24 exhibit. 25 THE COURT: Without objection and on stipulation, 1009 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013604 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 13 of 267 2041 LCACmax1 1 admitted under seal. 2 MS. MOE: May the jurors turn to what's now in 3 evidence under seal as Government Exhibits 52G, which is in 4 their binders. 5 THE COURT: Without objection? 6 MR. PAGLIUCA: No objection. 7 THE COURT: Large binders, GX52G, please. 8 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. May the jurors have 9 a moment to read this exhibit. In particular, we would direct 10 the jurors' attention to the entries under massage, Florida, for -- 11 12 MR. PAGLIUCA: Your Honor, I object to the direction 13 here. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. They can review the document. 15 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. May we give the 16 jurors a few minutes to read the document in full? 17 THE COURT: Just G? 18 MS. MOE: 52G, your Honor, yes. 19 THE COURT: They can take a moment for 52G, yes. 20 (Pause) 21 Okay. 22 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. Finally, we would 23 offer Government Exhibit 1009. This stipulation is a public 24 exhibit. 25 THE COURT: Without objection and on stipulation, 1009 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016229 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 14 of 267 2042 LCACmax1 Brown - direct is admitted. MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: Thank you. MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. THE COURT: Jurors may put the binders down and the government may call its next witness. MR. ROHRBACH: The government calls William Brown. THE COURT: William Brown may come forward. WILLIAM BROWN, called as a witness by the Government, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Brown. You may be seated and you may remove your mask and please state and spell your name for the record. THE WITNESS: Thank you. My name is William Brown, W-i-l-l-i-a-m B-r-o-w-n. THE COURT: Mr. Rohrbach, you may inquire. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ROHRBACH: Q. Good morning. A. Good morning. Q. Mr. Brown, where do you work? A. I work for the New York State Department of Motor Vehicles, Division of Field Investigations. Q. What is your position there? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013605 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 14 of 267 2042 LCACmax1 Brown - direct is admitted. MR. PAGLIUCA: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: Thank you. MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. THE COURT: Jurors may put the binders down and the government may call its next witness. MR. ROHRBACH: The government calls William Brown. THE COURT: William Brown may come forward. WILLIAM BROWN, called as a witness by the Government, having been duly sworn, testified as follows: THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Brown. You may be seated and you may remove your mask and please state and spell your name for the record. THE WITNESS: Thank you. My name is William Brown, W-i-l-l-i-a-m B-r-o-w-n. THE COURT: Mr. Rohrbach, you may inquire. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ROHRBACH: Q. Good morning. A. Good morning. Q. Mr. Brown, where do you work? A. I work for the New York State Department of Motor Vehicles, Division of Field Investigations. Q. What is your position there? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016230 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 15 of 267 2043 LCACmax1 Brown - direct 1 A. My position is a supervisor/investigator. 2 Q. As part of your job, are you familiar with the process by 3 which people obtain identification cards? 4 A. Yes, I am. 5 Q. Are you familiar with the Department of Motor Vehicles' business practices around the issuing of identification card? 6 A. Yes, I am. 7 Q. How does someone get an identification card? 8 A. A person would have to go to a DMV office, fill out an application, take a picture, then provide original documentation to their identification to the motor vehicle representative. 9 Q. What sort of information do they provide to the Department of Motor Vehicles? 10 A. They provide name, date of birth, social security number. 11 Q. And what, if anything, does the Department of Motor Vehicles do to verify that information? 12 A. We verify the original documents' security features. 13 Q. What original documents do you look at? 14 A. Social security cards, possible U.S. passport, birth certificate. 15 Q. Does that happen at or near the time the information is provided? 16 A. Yes, it does. 17 Q. You mentioned that a photograph is taken. Who takes that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013606 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 15 of 267 2043 LCACmax1 Brown - direct 1 A. My position is a supervisor/investigator. 2 Q. As part of your job, are you familiar with the process by 3 which people obtain identification cards? 4 A. Yes, I am. 5 Q. Are you familiar with the Department of Motor Vehicles' business practices around the issuing of identification card? 6 A. Yes, I am. 7 Q. How does someone get an identification card? 8 A. A person would have to go to a DMV office, fill out an application, take a picture, then provide original documentation to their identification to the motor vehicle representative. 9 Q. What sort of information do they provide to the Department of Motor Vehicles? 10 A. They provide name, date of birth, social security number. 11 Q. And what, if anything, does the Department of Motor Vehicles do to verify that information? 12 A. We verify the original documents' security features. 13 Q. What original documents do you look at? 14 A. Social security cards, possible U.S. passport, birth certificate. 15 Q. Does that happen at or near the time the information is provided? 16 A. Yes, it does. 17 Q. You mentioned that a photograph is taken. Who takes that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016231 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 16 of 267 2044 LCACmax1 Brown - direct 1 photograph? 2 A. A motor vehicle representative will take that photograph at 3 the counter. 4 Q. Is making identification cards a regular practice of the 5 Department of Motor Vehicles? 6 A. Yes, it is. 7 Q. I'd like you to pick up the folder next to you. Would you 8 please look at what's been marked for identification as 9 Government Exhibit 21. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. Do you recognize this? 12 A. Yes, I do. 13 Q. Have you reviewed it before today? 14 A. Yes, I have. 15 Q. Without saying any names, what is it? 16 A. It is a database -- New York State DMV compass database. 17 Q. What is the compass database or what records are stored? 18 A. ID cards, driver's licenses. 19 Q. Is this a fair and accurate report from the compass 20 database? 21 A. Yes, it is. 22 Q. Is the data stored in the compass database kept in the 23 ordinary course of business? 24 A. Yes, it is. 25 MR. ROHRBACH: The government offers Government SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013607 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 16 of 267 2044 LCACmax1 Brown - direct 1 photograph? 2 A. A motor vehicle representative will take that photograph at 3 the counter. 4 Q. Is making identification cards a regular practice of the 5 Department of Motor Vehicles? 6 A. Yes, it is. 7 Q. I'd like you to pick up the folder next to you. Would you 8 please look at what's been marked for identification as 9 Government Exhibit 21. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. Do you recognize this? 12 A. Yes, I do. 13 Q. Have you reviewed it before today? 14 A. Yes, I have. 15 Q. Without saying any names, what is it? 16 A. It is a database -- New York State DMV compass database. 17 Q. What is the compass database or what records are stored? 18 A. ID cards, driver's licenses. 19 Q. Is this a fair and accurate report from the compass 20 database? 21 A. Yes, it is. 22 Q. Is the data stored in the compass database kept in the 23 ordinary course of business? 24 A. Yes, it is. 25 MR. ROHRBACH: The government offers Government SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016232 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 17 of 267 2045 LCACmax1 Brown - direct 1 Exhibit 21 as a sealed exhibit to protect the identities of 2 witnesses testifying under pseudonyms. 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: Subject to the previous record, your 4 Honor. 5 THE COURT: GX21 is admitted for the reasons I 6 previously indicated under seal to protect the identity of the 7 witnesses. 8 BY MR. ROHRBACK: 9 Q. Supervisory Investigator Brown, would you please turn to 10 what's been marked for identification in your folder as 11 Government Exhibit 22. 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. Do you recognize this? 14 A. Yes, I do. 15 Q. Have you reviewed it before today? 16 A. Yes, I have. 17 Q. What is it? 18 A. This is an image capture that was taken of the person who 19 received an ID card. 20 Q. Is it the same person as the person in Government Exhibit 21 21 that we were just looking at? 22 A. Yes, it is. 23 Q. How is this record stored at the DMV? 24 A. This record is stored in a photosystem database. 25 Q. Is it kept in the regular courts of business? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013608 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 17 of 267 2045 LCACmax1 Brown - direct 1 Exhibit 21 as a sealed exhibit to protect the identities of 2 witnesses testifying under pseudonyms. 3 MR. PAGLIUCA: Subject to the previous record, your 4 Honor. 5 THE COURT: GX21 is admitted for the reasons I 6 previously indicated under seal to protect the identity of the 7 witnesses. 8 BY MR. ROHRBACK: 9 Q. Supervisory Investigator Brown, would you please turn to 10 what's been marked for identification in your folder as 11 Government Exhibit 22. 12 A. Okay. 13 Q. Do you recognize this? 14 A. Yes, I do. 15 Q. Have you reviewed it before today? 16 A. Yes, I have. 17 Q. What is it? 18 A. This is an image capture that was taken of the person who 19 received an ID card. 20 Q. Is it the same person as the person in Government Exhibit 21 21 that we were just looking at? 22 A. Yes, it is. 23 Q. How is this record stored at the DMV? 24 A. This record is stored in a photosystem database. 25 Q. Is it kept in the regular courts of business? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016233 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 18 of 267 2046 LCACmax1 Brown - direct 1 A. Yes, it is. 2 Q. Is that document a fair and accurate copy of the image from 3 the DMV's database? 4 A. Yes, it is. 5 MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, the government offers 6 Government Exhibit 22 under seal for the pseudonym reason. 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: Subject to the previous record, your 8 Honor. 9 THE COURT: Okay. For the reasons indicated, I will 10 admit Government Exhibit 22. It's admitted under seal to 11 protect the identity of the testifying witness. 12 MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, with the Court's 13 permission, I would ask the jurors first turn in their binders 14 what's already in evidence under seal as Defense Exhibit LV3A. 15 THE COURT: Without objection, Mr. Pagliuca? Without 16 objection to directing the jurors to turn to LV3A? 17 MR. PAGLIUCA: That's fine, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: It's in the binder or the folder? 19 MR. ROHRBACH: Front of the binder. 20 THE COURT: Front of the binder, LV3A. 21 MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, now with the Court's 22 permission, I direct the jurors and the witness to turn to 23 what's in evidence under seal as Government Exhibit 22. 24 THE COURT: Just admitted GX22, so you may turn to 25 that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013609 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 18 of 267 2046 LCACmax1 Brown - direct 1 A. Yes, it is. 2 Q. Is that document a fair and accurate copy of the image from 3 the DMV's database? 4 A. Yes, it is. 5 MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, the government offers 6 Government Exhibit 22 under seal for the pseudonym reason. 7 MR. PAGLIUCA: Subject to the previous record, your 8 Honor. 9 THE COURT: Okay. For the reasons indicated, I will 10 admit Government Exhibit 22. It's admitted under seal to 11 protect the identity of the testifying witness. 12 MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, with the Court's 13 permission, I would ask the jurors first turn in their binders 14 what's already in evidence under seal as Defense Exhibit LV3A. 15 THE COURT: Without objection, Mr. Pagliucca? Without 16 objection to directing the jurors to turn to LV3A? 17 MR. PAGLIUCA: That's fine, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: It's in the binder or the folder? 19 MR. ROHRBACH: Front of the binder. 20 THE COURT: Front of the binder, LV3A. 21 MR. ROHRBACH: Your Honor, now with the Court's 22 permission, I direct the jurors and the witness to turn to 23 what's in evidence under seal as Government Exhibit 22. 24 THE COURT: Just admitted GX22, so you may turn to 25 that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016234 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 19 of 267 2047 LCACmax1 Brown - direct 1 Q. Supervisory Investigator Brown, what is the date that this photo was taken? 2 A. This photo was taken on April 28th of 2004. 3 MR. ROHRBACH: Now, your Honor, I would ask that the 4 witness and the jury turn to Government Exhibit 21. 5 THE COURT: I just admitted GX21, so you may turn to 6 that, members of the jury. 7 8 Q. Directing your attention to the middle of the page, what is 9 the box titled nondriver ID history? 10 A. This box states the date that the nondriver ID was issued 11 and the date that it expires. 12 Q. What is the date that this nondriver ID was issued? 13 A. It was issued on April 28th of 2004. 14 Q. And is that the same date as the date on the photograph we 15 just looked at? 16 A. Yes, it is. 17 Q. Directing your attention to the top of the page, again, 18 without saying any names, do you see where it says DOB? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What does that stand for? 21 A. Date of birth. 22 Q. What is the year of this date of birth? 23 A. The year of this date of birth is 1985. 24 Q. How old was someone born in 1985 in 1996? 25 A. Someone born in 1985 in 1996 would be 11 years old. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013610 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 19 of 267 2047 LCACmax1 Brown - direct 1 Q. Supervisory Investigator Brown, what is the date that this photo was taken? 2 A. This photo was taken on April 28th of 2004. 3 MR. ROHRBACH: Now, your Honor, I would ask that the 4 witness and the jury turn to Government Exhibit 21. 5 THE COURT: I just admitted GX21, so you may turn to 6 that, members of the jury. 7 8 Q. Directing your attention to the middle of the page, what is 9 the box titled nondriver ID history? 10 A. This box states the date that the nondriver ID was issued 11 and the date that it expires. 12 Q. What is the date that this nondriver ID was issued? 13 A. It was issued on April 28th of 2004. 14 Q. And is that the same date as the date on the photograph we 15 just looked at? 16 A. Yes, it is. 17 Q. Directing your attention to the top of the page, again, 18 without saying any names, do you see where it says DOB? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What does that stand for? 21 A. Date of birth. 22 Q. What is the year of this date of birth? 23 A. The year of this date of birth is 1985. 24 Q. How old was someone born in 1985 in 1996? 25 A. Someone born in 1985 in 1996 would be 11 years old. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016235 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 20 of 267 2048 LCACmax1 Brown - direct 1 MR. ROHRBACH: No further questions, your Honor. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: I have no questions of this witness, your Honor. 3 4 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Brown. You may step down. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 6 (Witness excused) 7 8 THE COURT: Government may call its next witness. 9 MS. POMERANTZ: The government calls Annie Farmer. 10 THE COURT: Annie Farmer may come forward. Good morning, Ms. Farmer. 11 ANNIE FARMER, 12 called as a witness by the Government, 13 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 14 15 THE COURT: You may be seated. You can remove your mask and please state and spell your name for the record. 16 17 THE WITNESS: My name is Annie Farmer, A-n-n-i-e F-a-r-m-e-r. 18 19 THE COURT: Members of the jury, I have a limiting instruction. 20 21 I anticipate that you'll hear testimony from the next witness about physical contact that she says she had with 22 Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell in New Mexico. I instruct you that 23 the alleged physical contact she says occurred with Mr. Epstein 24 and Ms. Maxwell in New Mexico was not, quote, illegal sexual activity, end quote, as the government has charged in the 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013611 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 20 of 267 2048 LCACmax1 Brown - direct 1 MR. ROHRBACH: No further questions, your Honor. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: I have no questions of this witness, your Honor. 3 4 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Brown. You may step down. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 6 (Witness excused) 7 8 THE COURT: Government may call its next witness. 9 MS. POMERANTZ: The government calls Annie Farmer. 10 THE COURT: Annie Farmer may come forward. Good morning, Ms. Farmer. 11 ANNIE FARMER, 12 called as a witness by the Government, 13 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 14 15 THE COURT: You may be seated. You can remove your mask and please state and spell your name for the record. 16 17 THE WITNESS: My name is Annie Farmer, A-n-n-i-e F-a-r-m-e-r. 18 19 THE COURT: Members of the jury, I have a limiting instruction. 20 21 I anticipate that you'll hear testimony from the next witness about physical contact that she says she had with 22 Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell in New Mexico. I instruct you that 23 the alleged physical contact she says occurred with Mr. Epstein 24 and Ms. Maxwell in New Mexico was not, quote, illegal sexual activity, end quote, as the government has charged in the 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016236 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 21 of 267 2049 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct indictment. I'll give you more instructions on the legal term, quote, illegal sexual activity, end quote, at the end of the case. However, to the extent you conclude that her testimony is relevant to the issues before you, you may consider it, but you may not consider this testimony as any kind of reflection on Mr. Epstein's nor Ms. Maxwell's character or propensity to commit any of the crimes charged in the document. Ms. Pomerantz, you may inquire. MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Good morning. A. Good morning. Q. How old are you? A. I'm 42 years old. MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, at this time, I would ask that the jurors be permitted to take out their binders and turn to Government Exhibit 13, which is in evidence under seal, and I would ask that the witness also look at Government Exhibit 13. THE COURT: Ms. Menninger, without objection? MS. MENNINGER: Sorry, your Honor. One moment. THE COURT: That's okay. MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Members of the jury, you could open your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013612 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 21 of 267 2049 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct indictment. I'll give you more instructions on the legal term, quote, illegal sexual activity, end quote, at the end of the case. However, to the extent you conclude that her testimony is relevant to the issues before you, you may consider it, but you may not consider this testimony as any kind of reflection on Mr. Epstein's nor Ms. Maxwell's character or propensity to commit any of the crimes charged in the document. Ms. Pomerantz, you may inquire. MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Good morning. A. Good morning. Q. How old are you? A. I'm 42 years old. MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, at this time, I would ask that the jurors be permitted to take out their binders and turn to Government Exhibit 13, which is in evidence under seal, and I would ask that the witness also look at Government Exhibit 13. THE COURT: Ms. Menninger, without objection? MS. MENNINGER: Sorry, your Honor. One moment. THE COURT: That's okay. MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Members of the jury, you could open your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016237 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 22 of 267 2050 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct binder to GX13 and direct the witness to open to GX13. Q. What is Government Exhibit 13? A. It's a copy of my birth certificate. Q. Directing your attention on the first line towards the top right, is that the date of your birth? A. Yes, that's correct. MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, we can put that away now. THE COURT: You can put down your binders. Thank you. Q. In what state were you born? A. Missouri. Q. Where did you grow up? A. I moved around a bit when I was young, but when I was 8 years old, I moved to Arizona and lived there until I graduated from high school. Q. How far did you go in school? A. I completed my Ph.D. Q. Where did you go to college? A. I went to the University of Pennsylvania for my undergraduate. Q. Where did you get your Ph.D.? A. University of Texas at Austin. Q. What is your Ph.D. in? A. Educational psychology. Q. What kind of work do you do now? A. I'm a psychologist and I work primarily as a therapist. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013613 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 22 of 267 2050 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct binder to GX13 and direct the witness to open to GX13. Q. What is Government Exhibit 13? A. It's a copy of my birth certificate. Q. Directing your attention on the first line towards the top right, is that the date of your birth? A. Yes, that's correct. MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, we can put that away now. THE COURT: You can put down your binders. Thank you. Q. In what state were you born? A. Missouri. Q. Where did you grow up? A. I moved around a bit when I was young, but when I was 8 years old, I moved to Arizona and lived there until I graduated from high school. Q. How far did you go in school? A. I completed my Ph.D. Q. Where did you go to college? A. I went to the University of Pennsylvania for my undergraduate. Q. Where did you get your Ph.D.? A. University of Texas at Austin. Q. What is your Ph.D. in? A. Educational psychology. Q. What kind of work do you do now? A. I'm a psychologist and I work primarily as a therapist. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016238 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 23 of 267 2051 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct 1 Q. Now, Annie, could you please look around the courtroom and let us know, you do you see anyone in this courtroom who has ever given you a massage? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. Could you please describe where the person you recognize is sitting and describe an item of clothing the person is wearing. 4 A. She's wearing a brown sweater. She's seated to my right at the end of the table next to you. 5 MS. POMERANTZ: Let the record reflect that the witness has identified the defendant. 6 THE COURT: Record may so reflect. 7 Q. How old were you when Maxwell gave you a massage? 8 A. I was 16 years old. 9 Q. We'll talk about that more later, but I want to switch gears and take a step back. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. Where did you go to high school? 12 A. I went to high school in Phoenix, Arizona. 13 Q. And when you were about 16 years old, in what state were you living? 14 A. In Arizona. 15 Q. When you were 16 years old, who did you live with at home? 16 A. I lived with my mom and my little sister, Ashley, and our dog. 17 Q. Did your dad live with you? 18 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013614 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 23 of 267 2051 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct 1 Q. Now, Annie, could you please look around the courtroom and let us know, you do you see anyone in this courtroom who has ever given you a massage? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. Could you please describe where the person you recognize is sitting and describe an item of clothing the person is wearing. 4 A. She's wearing a brown sweater. She's seated to my right at the end of the table next to you. 5 MS. POMERANTZ: Let the record reflect that the witness has identified the defendant. 6 THE COURT: Record may so reflect. 7 Q. How old were you when Maxwell gave you a massage? 8 A. I was 16 years old. 9 Q. We'll talk about that more later, but I want to switch gears and take a step back. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. Where did you go to high school? 12 A. I went to high school in Phoenix, Arizona. 13 Q. And when you were about 16 years old, in what state were you living? 14 A. In Arizona. 15 Q. When you were 16 years old, who did you live with at home? 16 A. I lived with my mom and my little sister, Ashley, and our dog. 17 Q. Did your dad live with you? 18 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016239 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 24 of 267 2052 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. No. My parents are divorced. 2 Q. Was your mother employed? 3 A. She was. 4 Q. What kind of work did she do? 5 A. She was a sales rep for Owen Company, and she worked for herself -- worked with a couple of different companies. 6 7 Q. What was your understanding of your family's financial circumstances when you were 16 years old? 8 9 A. Money was tight. It had often been a stressor since my parents were divorced and my mom was supporting my sisters and 10 11 I pretty much on her own without much help at all from my father. So I was in high school and looking forward to college 12 13 and worried about money and how that would work out. 14 Q. You mentioned that you lived with your mom and your younger sister. Do you have any other siblings? 15 16 A. Yes, I have an older sister. 17 Q. What is your older sister's name? 18 A. Maria Farmer. 19 Q. About how much older than you is your sister? 20 A. She is a little more than nine years older than me. 21 Q. When you were 16 years old, where did Maria live? 22 A. She lived in Manhattan. 23 Q. What did Maria do for a living? 24 A. She had just completed her graduate school in painting and she was working as a painter, but her employment was with 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013615 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 24 of 267 2052 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. No. My parents are divorced. 2 Q. Was your mother employed? 3 A. She was. 4 Q. What kind of work did she do? 5 A. She was a sales rep for Owen Company, and she worked for herself -- worked with a couple of different companies. 6 7 Q. What was your understanding of your family's financial circumstances when you were 16 years old? 8 9 A. Money was tight. It had often been a stressor since my parents were divorced and my mom was supporting my sisters and 10 I pretty much on her own without much help at all from my father. So I was in high school and looking forward to college 11 and worried about money and how that would work out. 12 13 14 Q. You mentioned that you lived with your mom and your younger sister. Do you have any other siblings? 15 16 A. Yes, I have an older sister. 17 Q. What is your older sister's name? 18 A. Maria Farmer. 19 Q. About how much older than you is your sister? 20 A. She is a little more than nine years older than me. 21 Q. When you were 16 years old, where did Maria live? 22 A. She lived in Manhattan. 23 Q. What did Maria do for a living? 24 A. She had just completed her graduate school in painting and she was working as a painter, but her employment was with 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016240 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 25 of 267 2053 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct 1 Jeffrey Epstein. 2 Q. Did you talk to Maria while she was working for Jeffrey Epstein? 3 A. I did. 4 Q. How did you speak with Maria? 5 A. We would talk on the phone. 6 Q. Did there come a time when you visited Maria in New York? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Approximately when did you visit Maria in New York? 9 A. It was December 1995. 10 Q. Had you visited Maria in New York before December 1995? 11 A. I had not. 12 Q. Why not? 13 A. Money was, as I said, tight for us. So she had graduated, 14 but we had not been able to attend that. And just affording a 15 plane ticket was a big deal. So I had not gone to visit her. 16 Q. How was it that you were able to afford this trip in December 1995 to New York? 17 A. Jeffrey Epstein purchased a ticket for me. 18 Q. What were you hoping to do on this trip to New York? 19 A. I was hoping, one, to see my sister. I was very excited to 20 see her. It had been some time. I was also hoping to be 21 acquainted with Jeffrey Epstein. He had said that he was 22 interested in helping -- 23 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor. It 24 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013616 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 25 of 267 2053 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct 1 Jeffrey Epstein. 2 Q. Did you talk to Maria while she was working for Jeffrey Epstein? 3 4 A. I did. 5 Q. How did you speak with Maria? 6 A. We would talk on the phone. 7 Q. Did there come a time when you visited Maria in New York? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Approximately when did you visit Maria in New York? 10 A. It was December 1995. 11 Q. Had you visited Maria in New York before December 1995? 12 A. I had not. 13 Q. Why not? 14 A. Money was, as I said, tight for us. So she had graduated, 15 but we had not been able to attend that. And just affording a 16 plane ticket was a big deal. So I had not gone to visit her. 17 Q. How was it that you were able to afford this trip in December 1995 to New York? 18 19 A. Jeffrey Epstein purchased a ticket for me. 20 Q. What were you hoping to do on this trip to New York? 21 A. I was hoping, one, to see my sister. I was very excited to 22 see her. It had been some time. I was also hoping to be 23 acquainted with Jeffrey Epstein. He had said that he was 24 interested in helping -- 25 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor. It SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016241 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 26 of 267 2054 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct wasn't directly to her. THE COURT: Just a moment. Sustained. Q. Annie, did there come a time when your sister spoke to you about a trip to New York? A. Yes. Q. And what did she tell you about this trip to New York? MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor. MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, effect on the listener. THE COURT: Just a moment. Is this the issue we've discussed? MS. POMERANTZ: I believe so, yes. THE COURT: Okay. Overruled. MS. MENNINGER: If that's the question -- THE COURT: I'll listen to the testimony and if it's beyond that, I'll hear the objection. MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor. THE COURT: Go ahead. Do you need the question repeated? THE WITNESS: Yes. Could you repeat that. BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. What had your sister, Maria, told you about the trip to New York? A. She had said that Epstein was interested in possibly helping me with my education, and this was one of the reasons that he was purchasing my ticket. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013617 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 26 of 267 2054 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct wasn't directly to her. THE COURT: Just a moment. Sustained. Q. Annie, did there come a time when your sister spoke to you about a trip to New York? A. Yes. Q. And what did she tell you about this trip to New York? MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor. MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, effect on the listener. THE COURT: Just a moment. Is this the issue we've discussed? MS. POMERANTZ: I believe so, yes. THE COURT: Okay. Overruled. MS. MENNINGER: If that's the question -- THE COURT: I'll listen to the testimony and if it's beyond that, I'll hear the objection. MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor. THE COURT: Go ahead. Do you need the question repeated? THE WITNESS: Yes. Could you repeat that. BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. What had your sister, Maria, told you about the trip to New York? A. She had said that Epstein was interested in possibly helping me with my education, and this was one of the reasons that he was purchasing my ticket. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016242 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 27 of 267 2055 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct 1 MS. MENNINGER: I renew my objection, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: So I'll overrule the objection, but I will 3 tell the jury that the testimony that Ms. Farmer just provided 4 about what was told to her is not being offered for the truth, 5 but for the limited purpose of the effect on the listener, 6 Ms. Farmer. 7 Go ahead. 8 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 9 Q. How did you travel to New York? 10 A. I flew, commercially. 11 Q. Who, if anyone, did you travel with to New York? 12 A. No one. I flew by myself. 13 Q. Who paid for your flight to New York? 14 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Foundation, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: All right. Sustained. 16 Q. Did you pay for your flight to New York? 17 A. I did not. 18 Q. When you were in New York, who, if anyone, did you think 19 bought you the ticket? 20 A. When I met Epstein -- 21 MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. Hearsay. It's 22 being offered for that purpose. 23 THE COURT: Additional foundation questions are 24 required. 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I'll move on for now. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013618 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 27 of 267 2055 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct 1 MS. MENNINGER: I renew my objection, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: So I'll overrule the objection, but I will 3 tell the jury that the testimony that Ms. Farmer just provided 4 about what was told to her is not being offered for the truth, 5 but for the limited purpose of the effect on the listener, 6 Ms. Farmer. 7 Go ahead. 8 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 9 Q. How did you travel to New York? 10 A. I flew, commercially. 11 Q. Who, if anyone, did you travel with to New York? 12 A. No one. I flew by myself. 13 Q. Who paid for your flight to New York? 14 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Foundation, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: All right. Sustained. 16 Q. Did you pay for your flight to New York? 17 A. I did not. 18 Q. When you were in New York, who, if anyone, did you think 19 bought you the ticket? 20 A. When I met Epstein -- 21 MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. Hearsay. It's 22 being offered for that purpose. 23 THE COURT: Additional foundation questions are 24 required. 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I'll move on for now. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016243 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 28 of 267 2056 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct 1 Thank you. 2 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 3 Q. Where did you stay in New York? 4 A. I stayed with my sister in her apartment. 5 Q. Approximately how long were you in New York? 6 A. I believe it was about a week. 7 Q. When did you go to New York? 8 A. After Christmas in 1995. 9 Q. Did there come a time when you met Jeffrey Epstein during that trip? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you meet Maxwell during this trip to New York? 12 A. I did not. 13 Q. How many times did you see Jeffrey Epstein during this trip in New York? 14 A. There were two different occasions that I recall. 15 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up for just the witness, the parties, and the Court, what has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 101. 16 Q. Annie, do you recognize this? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What is it? 19 A. It's my high school photo from my junior year in high school. 20 Q. Is this a fair and accurate depiction of your physical 21 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013619 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 28 of 267 2056 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct 1 Thank you. 2 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 3 Q. Where did you stay in New York? 4 A. I stayed with my sister in her apartment. 5 Q. Approximately how long were you in New York? 6 A. I believe it was about a week. 7 Q. When did you go to New York? 8 A. After Christmas in 1995. 9 Q. Did there come a time when you met Jeffrey Epstein during that trip? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you meet Maxwell during this trip to New York? 12 A. I did not. 13 Q. How many times did you see Jeffrey Epstein during this trip in New York? 14 A. There were two different occasions that I recall. 15 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up for just the witness, the parties, and the Court, what has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 101. 16 Q. Annie, do you recognize this? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What is it? 19 A. It's my high school photo from my junior year in high school. 20 Q. Is this a fair and accurate depiction of your physical 21 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016244 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 29 of 267 2057 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct 1 appearance around the time you met Jeffrey Epstein? 2 A. It is. 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers 4 Government Exhibit 101 in evidence. 5 MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Thank you. GX101 is admitted. You may publish. 7 8 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 9 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 10 Q. How old were you at the time this photograph was taken? 11 A. I was 16 years old. 12 Q. How old were you on the trip to New York? 13 A. I was 16 years old. 14 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, can you please pull up 15 what's already in evidence as Government Exhibit 112. 16 Q. Annie, do you recognize the person in this photograph? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Who is it? 19 A. It's Jeffrey Epstein. 20 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can take that down. 21 Thanks very much. 22 Q. Can you please describe for the jury what happened the 23 first time you met Jeffrey Epstein. 24 A. Yes. My sister and I went to his home. He had purchased 25 tickets for us to attend the Phantom of the Opera. So we met SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013620 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 29 of 267 2057 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct 1 appearance around the time you met Jeffrey Epstein? 2 A. It is. 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers 4 Government Exhibit 101 in evidence. 5 MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Thank you. GX101 is admitted. You may publish. 7 8 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 9 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 10 Q. How old were you at the time this photograph was taken? 11 A. I was 16 years old. 12 Q. How old were you on the trip to New York? 13 A. I was 16 years old. 14 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, can you please pull up 15 what's already in evidence as Government Exhibit 112. 16 Q. Annie, do you recognize the person in this photograph? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Who is it? 19 A. It's Jeffrey Epstein. 20 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can take that down. 21 Thanks very much. 22 Q. Can you please describe for the jury what happened the 23 first time you met Jeffrey Epstein. 24 A. Yes. My sister and I went to his home. He had purchased 25 tickets for us to attend the Phantom of the Opera. So we met SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016245 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 30 of 267 2058 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct with him at his home. He was very -- he seemed very friendly and kind of down to earth, he was dressed casually. We were dressed up because we were going to the theater and this was a big deal because I had been very excited about seeing this production, and he invited us into his home and we talked and served us champagne. And then, later on, his driver took us to the play. Q. Just to unpack that a little bit. Where did you meet Epstein? A. At his home. Q. Can you describe for the jury what the home looked like. A. Yeah, it was a very grand home. I was staying with my sister in her apartment, which is about, I think, 500 square feet. So I had never been in a private residence that was so large in the city before. It was full of very nice things. I remember sitting across a desk from him, like, you know, a beautiful large wooden desk in this kind of library room. And, yeah, it was just a very, you know, a very fancy home. THE COURT: Ms. Farmer, could I ask you to move the microphone a little bit closer to you if you speak directly into it. THE WITNESS: Yes. Sorry. THE COURT: Thank you. Q. What, if anything, did Epstein ask you about? A. Well, one thing he asked me about was my plans for after SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013621 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 30 of 267 2058 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct with him at his home. He was very -- he seemed very friendly and kind of down to earth, he was dressed casually. We were dressed up because we were going to the theater and this was a big deal because I had been very excited about seeing this production, and he invited us into his home and we talked and served us champagne. And then, later on, his driver took us to the play. Q. Just to unpack that a little bit. Where did you meet Epstein? A. At his home. Q. Can you describe for the jury what the home looked like. A. Yeah, it was a very grand home. I was staying with my sister in her apartment, which is about, I think, 500 square feet. So I had never been in a private residence that was so large in the city before. It was full of very nice things. I remember sitting across a desk from him, like, you know, a beautiful large wooden desk in this kind of library room. And, yeah, it was just a very, you know, a very fancy home. THE COURT: Ms. Farmer, could I ask you to move the microphone a little bit closer to you if you speak directly into it. THE WITNESS: Yes. Sorry. THE COURT: Thank you. Q. What, if anything, did Epstein ask you about? A. Well, one thing he asked me about was my plans for after SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016246 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 31 of 267 2059 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct high school, and we talked a bit about colleagues and he asked me where I was considering. I remember he suggested that I should look at UCLA, that that was a place that he liked or had some connection. And then, yeah, just made, you know, made small talk. Q. What, if anything, did Epstein talk to you about in terms of your summer? A. We'd talked about the idea of me going on a trip that summer, something that would help sort of boost my application for college, that would look good. So a lot of people at that time were doing international trips and he said that was something he thought would be a good idea for me to do and he would be willing to help me with that. Q. How did you feel when you first met Epstein? A. I was excited. He was, again, very friendly with me, he seemed down to earth. I had been sort of intimidated by what I heard of him, but he seemed, you know, very nice when I met him. What he said about wanting to help me was, of course, exciting, reassuring. (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013622 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 31 of 267 2059 LCACmax1 A. Farmer - direct high school, and we talked a bit about colleagues and he asked me where I was considering. I remember he suggested that I should look at UCLA, that that was a place that he liked or had some connection. And then, yeah, just made, you know, made small talk. Q. What, if anything, did Epstein talk to you about in terms of your summer? A. We'd talked about the idea of me going on a trip that summer, something that would help sort of boost my application for college, that would look good. So a lot of people at that time were doing international trips and he said that was something he thought would be a good idea for me to do and he would be willing to help me with that. Q. How did you feel when you first met Epstein? A. I was excited. He was, again, very friendly with me, he seemed down to earth. I had been sort of intimidated by what I heard of him, but he seemed, you know, very nice when I met him. What he said about wanting to help me was, of course, exciting, reassuring. (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016247 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 32 of 267 2060 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 2 Q. After you met Epstein in his home, where did you go? 3 A. His driver took my sister and I to see The Phantom of the Opera. 4 5 Q. And who -- just to be clear, who went to the theater? 6 A. My sister Maria and I. 7 Q. Did you see Jeffrey Epstein again during this trip to New 8 York? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Where did you see him again? 11 A. We met him one evening to go see a movie. 12 Q. Who went to the movies? 13 A. My sister, myself, and Jeffrey Epstein. 14 Q. What movie did you see? 15 A. The movie Five Monkeys. 16 Q. Who did you sit next to at the movie theater? 17 A. I sat next to Epstein. 18 Q. And where was Maria seated? 19 A. She was seated on his other side. 20 Q. What happened during the movie? 21 A. Initially, when the lights went down, watching the movie. 22 And then at some point he reaches over and puts his hand on the 23 armrest in between our seats and starts to reach for my hand. 24 And then, you know, caressed my hand; and then, you know, 25 interlocked his hand with mine, holding my hand. And then also SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013623 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 32 of 267 2060 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 2 Q. After you met Epstein in his home, where did you go? 3 A. His driver took my sister and I to see The Phantom of the Opera. 4 5 Q. And who -- just to be clear, who went to the theater? 6 A. My sister Maria and I. 7 Q. Did you see Jeffrey Epstein again during this trip to New 8 York? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Where did you see him again? 11 A. We met him one evening to go see a movie. 12 Q. Who went to the movies? 13 A. My sister, myself, and Jeffrey Epstein. 14 Q. What movie did you see? 15 A. The movie Five Monkeys. 16 Q. Who did you sit next to at the movie theater? 17 A. I sat next to Epstein. 18 Q. And where was Maria seated? 19 A. She was seated on his other side. 20 Q. What happened during the movie? 21 A. Initially, when the lights went down, watching the movie. 22 And then at some point he reaches over and puts his hand on the 23 armrest in between our seats and starts to reach for my hand. 24 And then, you know, caressed my hand; and then, you know, 25 interlocked his hand with mine, holding my hand. And then also SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016248 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 33 of 267 2061 LCAVMAX2 was rubbing my -- I think I had my, you know, legs crossed, so he was rubbing the bottom of my shoe and then rubbing my foot and my leg. Q. When he was doing that, what was your reaction? A. I was very surprised. I was very nervous and anxious. I felt sick to my stomach. It was not something that I was at all expecting. And I noticed that when he would interact in some way with my sister, that he would stop doing that. And then when he -- when the interaction was over, we were watching -- he was looking forward again, he would return to touching me. Q. What happened after the movie ended? A. When the movie ended, we got up, left the theater. And he said good-bye and walked -- my sister and I walked back. Q. Did you tell your sister about what had happened in the movie theater? A. I did not. Q. Why not? A. I was, number one, very confused about what had happened. And I knew that she was very protective. And if I told her that he had done something that aimed to touch me and make me so uncomfortable, that she would be upset. And that was her employer. And I thought that would -- you know, she could possibly lose her job. It would be bad for her. And so I just -- I decided not to say anything. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013624 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 33 of 267 2061 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct was rubbing my -- I think I had my, you know, legs crossed, so he was rubbing the bottom of my shoe and then rubbing my foot and my leg. Q. When he was doing that, what was your reaction? A. I was very surprised. I was very nervous and anxious. I felt sick to my stomach. It was not something that I was at all expecting. And I noticed that when he would interact in some way with my sister, that he would stop doing that. And then when he -- when the interaction was over, we were watching -- he was looking forward again, he would return to touching me. Q. What happened after the movie ended? A. When the movie ended, we got up, left the theater. And he said good-bye and walked -- my sister and I walked back. Q. Did you tell your sister about what had happened in the movie theater? A. I did not. Q. Why not? A. I was, number one, very confused about what had happened. And I knew that she was very protective. And if I told her that he had done something that aimed to touch me and make me so uncomfortable, that she would be upset. And that was her employer. And I thought that would -- you know, she could possibly lose her job. It would be bad for her. And so I just -- I decided not to say anything. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016249 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 34 of 267 2062 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 Q. When you left the movie theater, did you see Epstein again while you were in New York? 2 A. No, I did not. 3 Q. At the time you were visiting Epstein when you were 16 4 years old, what were you hoping to do the following summer? 5 A. I was hoping to go on a trip, to go on an international 6 trip to help me with maybe getting into a good school. 7 Q. During this time period, did you write in a journal? 8 A. I did. 9 Q. Can you describe your journaling practice at this time. 10 A. I was -- I was not a consistent journaler, but I would just 11 from time to time write about things happening in my life, 12 write about my thoughts and feelings about different things, 13 yeah. 14 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up 15 for just the witness, the parties, and the Court what's been 16 marked for identification as Government Exhibit 601. 17 Q. Annie, do you recognize this? 18 A. Yes, this is a notebook I used as a journal at that time in 19 my life. 20 Q. Is that the cover of the journal? 21 A. That's the cover, yes. 22 Q. Is that a fair and accurate depiction of the cover of your 23 journal? 24 A. It is. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013625 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 34 of 267 2062 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 Q. When you left the movie theater, did you see Epstein again while you were in New York? 2 A. No, I did not. 3 Q. At the time you were visiting Epstein when you were 16 years old, what were you hoping to do the following summer? 4 A. I was hoping to go on a trip, to go on an international trip to help me with maybe getting into a good school. 5 Q. During this time period, did you write in a journal? 6 A. I did. 7 Q. Can you describe your journaling practice at this time. 8 A. I was -- I was not a consistent journaler, but I would just from time to time write about things happening in my life, write about my thoughts and feelings about different things, yeah. 9 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up for just the witness, the parties, and the Court what's been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 601. 10 Q. Annie, do you recognize this? 11 A. Yes, this is a notebook I used as a journal at that time in my life. 12 Q. Is that the cover of the journal? 13 A. That's the cover, yes. 14 Q. Is that a fair and accurate depiction of the cover of your journal? 15 A. It is. 16 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016250 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 35 of 267 2063 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers 2 Government Exhibit 601 in evidence. 3 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, subject to our request 4 under Rule 106, we have no objection. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 601 is admitted. 6 (Government's Exhibit 601 received in evidence) 7 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 8 I would ask if that could be published, please. 9 THE COURT: You may. 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up 11 for just the witness, the parties, and the Court what has been 12 marked for identification as Government Exhibit 603. 13 Q. Annie, do you recognize this? 14 A. Yes. 15 MS. POMERANTZ: We could scroll to -- I believe there 16 are two pages. If we could just scroll to the second page. 17 Thank you. 18 Q. What is this? 19 A. It is an entry from that journal. 20 Q. Is this a fair and accurate depiction of an entry from your 21 journal? 22 A. It is. 23 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers 24 Government Exhibit 603. 25 MS. MENNINGER: Same objection under Rule 106. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013626 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 35 of 267 2063 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers 2 Government Exhibit 601 in evidence. 3 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, subject to our request 4 under Rule 106, we have no objection. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 601 is admitted. 6 (Government's Exhibit 601 received in evidence) 7 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 8 I would ask if that could be published, please. 9 THE COURT: You may. 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up 11 for just the witness, the parties, and the Court what has been 12 marked for identification as Government Exhibit 603. 13 Q. Annie, do you recognize this? 14 A. Yes. 15 MS. POMERANTZ: We could scroll to -- I believe there 16 are two pages. If we could just scroll to the second page. 17 Thank you. 18 Q. What is this? 19 A. It is an entry from that journal. 20 Q. Is this a fair and accurate depiction of an entry from your 21 journal? 22 A. It is. 23 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers 24 Government Exhibit 603. 25 MS. MENNINGER: Same objection under Rule 106. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016251 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 36 of 267 2064 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 THE COURT: GX-603 is admitted. 2 (Government's Exhibit 603 received in evidence) 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I would ask that we 4 publish it at this time. 5 THE COURT: You may. 6 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 7 Q. Annie, what is the date of this entry? 8 A. January 7th, 1996. 9 Q. Can you please read the entry for the jury. 10 A. Yes. 11 I got back from my trip to New York today. I had such 12 a great time. It is really depressing to be back home. I feel 13 like it was a trip that changed my whole outlook on life. I 14 guess I always feel that way a little bit when I get back 15 home -- when I get from trips. But it is overwhelming this 16 time. 17 Continue reading? 18 I am so ready to be out of high school and in college. 19 Everything seems so silly, going out, etc. It did a little 20 before anyway. I even feel a little isolated from my friends. 21 Before I left, I was on a high of how great my friends were. I 22 still realize how wonderful they are, but I feel more 23 independent, like they aren't necessary. 24 Q. You can keep reading. 25 A. Okay. I felt like this when I got back from Mexico, and it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013627 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 36 of 267 2064 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 THE COURT: GX-603 is admitted. 2 (Government's Exhibit 603 received in evidence) 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I would ask that we 4 publish it at this time. 5 THE COURT: You may. 6 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 7 Q. Annie, what is the date of this entry? 8 A. January 7th, 1996. 9 Q. Can you please read the entry for the jury. 10 A. Yes. 11 I got back from my trip to New York today. I had such 12 a great time. It is really depressing to be back home. I feel 13 like it was a trip that changed my whole outlook on life. I 14 guess I always feel that way a little bit when I get back 15 home -- when I get from trips. But it is overwhelming this 16 time. 17 Continue reading? 18 I am so ready to be out of high school and in college. 19 Everything seems so silly, going out, etc. It did a little 20 before anyway. I even feel a little isolated from my friends. 21 Before I left, I was on a high of how great my friends were. I 22 still realize how wonderful they are, but I feel more 23 independent, like they aren't necessary. 24 Q. You can keep reading. 25 A. Okay. I felt like this when I got back from Mexico, and it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016252 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 37 of 267 2065 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct faded quickly, but I have a feeling it is different this time. New York is such an amazing city. I felt really comfortable there, like I know that I belong there and would live there at some point, hopefully soon. I miss Maria so much already. It seems unfair that I can't see her more often. I feel like I'm missing so much. There is so much to tell about the trip, but I don't know where to begin. The best night was when Maria and I saw Phantom of the Opera. We went to Jeff Epstein's house and had champagne with him. I found him down-to-earth and easy to talk to. I thanked him so much for the trip, etc. We then took his car. His driver actually took us to Phantom. I didn't know any play could be so moving. I had seen it before, but still couldn't believe it. I bawled. It was fantastic. After the play, we walked around the plaza and went home. It was so much fun. MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up for just the witness, the parties, and the Court what has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 604. You can scroll to the second page. Thank you. And we can go back up to the top. Thank you, Ms. Drescher. Q. Annie, do you recognize this? A. Yes. It's another entry from the same journal. Q. Is this a fair and accurate depiction of an entry from your journal? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013628 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 37 of 267 2065 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct faded quickly, but I have a feeling it is different this time. New York is such an amazing city. I felt really comfortable there, like I know that I belong there and would live there at some point, hopefully soon. I miss Maria so much already. It seems unfair that I can't see her more often. I feel like I'm missing so much. There is so much to tell about the trip, but I don't know where to begin. The best night was when Maria and I saw Phantom of the Opera. We went to Jeff Epstein's house and had champagne with him. I found him down-to-earth and easy to talk to. I thanked him so much for the trip, etc. We then took his car. His driver actually took us to Phantom. I didn't know any play could be so moving. I had seen it before, but still couldn't believe it. I bawled. It was fantastic. After the play, we walked around the plaza and went home. It was so much fun. MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up for just the witness, the parties, and the Court what has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 604. You can scroll to the second page. Thank you. And we can go back up to the top. Thank you, Ms. Drescher. Q. Annie, do you recognize this? A. Yes. It's another entry from the same journal. Q. Is this a fair and accurate depiction of an entry from your journal? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016253 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 38 of 267 2066 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. It is. 2 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers Government Exhibit 604. 3 MS. MENNINGER: Same 106 objection, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Okay. Overruled. 5 GX-604 is admitted. 6 (Government's Exhibit 604 received in evidence) 7 Q. What is the date of this entry? 8 MS. POMERANTZ: Oh, your Honor, I'm sorry. Can we please publish it? 9 THE COURT: You may. 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you. 11 Q. Annie, what is the date of this entry? 12 A. January 25th, 1996. 13 Q. Can you please read the entry for the jury. 14 A. It has been a couple of weeks since I got back, and I have gotten back into the swing of things. A couple of quick details about New York I didn't mention earlier. Went to see The Dutchess, a decent play, and Blue Man Group tubes Off Broadway. A really cool production. 15 Went to the flea market, where I got some cool stuff. 16 Went to Jeffrey Epstein's mansion. Went to The Met, a pretty fun New Year's Eve party. Went to thrift stores where I got an amazing dress for prom. It's from the '50s, laced with pink flowers with rhinestones in the middle all over it. It is my 17 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013629 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 38 of 267 2066 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. It is. 2 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers Government Exhibit 604. 3 MS. MENNINGER: Same 106 objection, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Okay. Overruled. 5 GX-604 is admitted. 6 (Government's Exhibit 604 received in evidence) 7 Q. What is the date of this entry? 8 MS. POMERANTZ: Oh, your Honor, I'm sorry. Can we please publish it? 9 THE COURT: You may. 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you. 11 Q. Annie, what is the date of this entry? 12 A. January 25th, 1996. 13 Q. Can you please read the entry for the jury. 14 A. It has been a couple of weeks since I got back, and I have gotten back into the swing of things. A couple of quick details about New York I didn't mention earlier. Went to see The Dutchess, a decent play, and Blue Man Group tubes Off Broadway. A really cool production. 15 Went to the flea market, where I got some cool stuff. 16 Went to Jeffrey Epstein's mansion. Went to The Met, a pretty fun New Year's Eve party. Went to thrift stores where I got an amazing dress for prom. It's from the '50s, laced with pink flowers with rhinestones in the middle all over it. It is my 17 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016254 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 39 of 267 2067 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct dream dress. One night we went to the movies with Jeffrey Epstein. It was -- it was a little weird; one of those things that is hard to explain. We were sitting next to each other, and he put out his hand for me to hold, and we were holding hands. Not weird. Normal. Fine. Then he kind of caressed, rubbed my arm and shoe, foot. It was one of those things that just gave me a weird feeling, but wasn't that weird and probably normal. The one thing that kind of weirded me out about it was he let go of my hand when he was talking to Maria. Oh, well, I decided it was no big deal. It just made me mad because he's being so amazing, paying for a summer program for me and helping me with college. He's so nice and so generous with everyone. I just didn't want to have any weird feelings about it. I didn't/couldn't say anything to Maria about it because she worships him and it would just create problems. I couldn't tell anyone else because it is not a big deal and I didn't want to portray him in a bad light. I really don't think it is a big deal. I think he is just a relaxed guy and likes to flirt or was being fatherly or something. I know this sounds like me trying to justify him doing something weird, but it isn't. Continue reading? Q. Let me just pause you right there. Can you explain how you were feeling about Epstein at the time you were writing about him in your journal? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013630 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 39 of 267 2067 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct dream dress. One night we went to the movies with Jeffrey Epstein. It was -- it was a little weird; one of those things that is hard to explain. We were sitting next to each other, and he put out his hand for me to hold, and we were holding hands. Not weird. Normal. Fine. Then he kind of caressed, rubbed my arm and shoe, foot. It was one of those things that just gave me a weird feeling, but wasn't that weird and probably normal. The one thing that kind of weirdded me out about it was he let go of my hand when he was talking to Maria. Oh, well, I decided it was no big deal. It just made me mad because he's being so amazing, paying for a summer program for me and helping me with college. He's so nice and so generous with everyone. I just didn't want to have any weird feelings about it. I didn't/couldn't say anything to Maria about it because she worships him and it would just create problems. I couldn't tell anyone else because it is not a big deal and I didn't want to portray him in a bad light. I really don't think it is a big deal. I think he is just a relaxed guy and likes to flirt or was being fatherly or something. I know this sounds like me trying to justify him doing something weird, but it isn't. Continue reading? Q. Let me just pause you right there. Can you explain how you were feeling about Epstein at the time you were writing about him in your journal. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016255 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 40 of 267 2068 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct A. Yeah. I think that I was obviously very conflicted because I knew what had happened in the movie theater was not normal or right. And but it had made me feel very uncomfortable. But I was trying to come up with excuses or justifications in my mind to make it seem okay, because of what I saw as, you know, him being such a generous, nice person. And so, you know, I'm trying to -- I'm trying to make sense of it and I'm having a hard time. Q. I'll ask you to continue reading from where it says "Right now." A. Right now my big concern is what I am going to do this summer. There are so many cools things to do and amazing places to go. Right now I'm really thinking about doing something in Africa. It would be incredible. So different, so beautiful, all the different people. I would love it. I think I will really be happy doing almost anything. MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can take that down. Your Honor, may I have just one moment please? THE COURT: You may. (Counsel conferred) BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Annie, after meeting Epstein in New York, did you and Epstein stay in touch? A. Yes. Q. How did you and Epstein communicate? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013631 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 40 of 267 2068 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct A. Yeah. I think that I was obviously very conflicted because I knew what had happened in the movie theater was not normal or right. And but it had made me feel very uncomfortable. But I was trying to come up with excuses or justifications in my mind to make it seem okay, because of what I saw as, you know, him being such a generous, nice person. And so, you know, I'm trying to -- I'm trying to make sense of it and I'm having a hard time. Q. I'll ask you to continue reading from where it says "Right now." A. Right now my big concern is what I am going to do this summer. There are so many cools things to do and amazing places to go. Right now I'm really thinking about doing something in Africa. It would be incredible. So different, so beautiful, all the different people. I would love it. I think I will really be happy doing almost anything. MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can take that down. Your Honor, may I have just one moment please? THE COURT: You may. (Counsel conferred) BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Annie, after meeting Epstein in New York, did you and Epstein stay in touch? A. Yes. Q. How did you and Epstein communicate? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016256 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 41 of 267 2069 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. We spoke on the phone. 2 Q. Approximately how many times did you speak with Epstein by 3 phone after your trip to New York? 4 A. Approximately two or three times. 5 Q. Did there come a time when you saw Jeffrey Epstein in 6 person again? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Approximately when did you see him? 9 A. In April of 1996, the spring of 1996, I think it was April. 10 Q. Where did you see Epstein? 11 A. In New Mexico. 12 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up 13 for just the parties, the witness, and the Court what has been 14 marked for identification as Government Exhibit 102. 15 Q. Annie, do you recognize this? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What is this? 18 A. It's a photo of me getting ready for prom. 19 Q. Is this a fair and accurate depiction of your physical 20 appearance during the spring of 1996? 21 A. Yes. 22 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers 23 Government Exhibit 102. 24 MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Thank you. GX-102 is admitted. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013632 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 41 of 267 2069 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. We spoke on the phone. 2 Q. Approximately how many times did you speak with Epstein by 3 phone after your trip to New York? 4 A. Approximately two or three times. 5 Q. Did there come a time when you saw Jeffrey Epstein in 6 person again? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Approximately when did you see him? 9 A. In April of 1996, the spring of 1996, I think it was April. 10 Q. Where did you see Epstein? 11 A. In New Mexico. 12 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up 13 for just the parties, the witness, and the Court what has been 14 marked for identification as Government Exhibit 102. 15 Q. Annie, do you recognize this? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What is this? 18 A. It's a photo of me getting ready for prom. 19 Q. Is this a fair and accurate depiction of your physical 20 appearance during the spring of 1996? 21 A. Yes. 22 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers 23 Government Exhibit 102. 24 MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Thank you. GX-102 is admitted. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016257 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 42 of 267 2070 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct (Government's Exhibit 102 received in evidence) MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may we publish at this time? THE COURT: You may. Q. Annie, how old were you at the time this photograph was taken? A. I was 16 years old. Q. Where was the photograph taken? A. In my apartment. Q. Who invited you on this trip to New Mexico? A. Epstein invited me. Q. How did you learn you were going to be allowed to go on this trip to New Mexico? A. My best recollection is from my mom, that we had talked about it. Q. Who, if anyone, did you understand you would be seeing in New Mexico? MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Foundation, your Honor, hearsay or not. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. In the spring of 1996, did there come a time when you learned that you would be going to New Mexico? A. Yes. Q. I think you mentioned you learned about that from your mother; is that right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013633 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 42 of 267 2070 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 (Government's Exhibit 102 received in evidence) 2 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may we publish at this 3 time? 4 THE COURT: You may. 5 Q. Annie, how old were you at the time this photograph was 6 taken? 7 A. I was 16 years old. 8 Q. Where was the photograph taken? 9 A. In my apartment. 10 Q. Who invited you on this trip to New Mexico? 11 A. Epstein invited me. 12 Q. How did you learn you were going to be allowed to go on 13 this trip to New Mexico? 14 A. My best recollection is from my mom, that we had talked 15 about it. 16 Q. Who, if anyone, did you understand you would be seeing in 17 New Mexico? 18 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. 19 Foundation, your Honor, hearsay or not. 20 THE COURT: Sustained. 21 Q. In the spring of 1996, did there come a time when you 22 learned that you would be going to New Mexico? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. I think you mentioned you learned about that from your 25 mother; is that right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016258 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 43 of 267 2071 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Based on your conversations with your mother, who did you 3 understand you would be seeing in New Mexico? 4 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. 5 Hearsay, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Sustained. 7 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, this is not being offered 8 for the truth. 9 THE COURT: Sustained. 10 MS. POMERANTZ: May I have one moment? 11 THE COURT: You may. 12 (Counsel conferred) 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may we approach? 14 THE COURT: You may. 15 (Continued on next page) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013634 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 43 of 267 2071 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. Based on your conversations with your mother, who did you 3 understand you would be seeing in New Mexico? 4 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. 5 Hearsay, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Sustained. 7 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, this is not being offered 8 for the truth. 9 THE COURT: Sustained. 10 MS. POMERANTZ: May I have one moment? 11 THE COURT: You may. 12 (Counsel conferred) 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may we approach? 14 THE COURT: You may. 15 (Continued on next page) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016259 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 44 of 267 2072 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 (At sidebar) 2 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 3 This information is being asked not for the truth of 4 the matter being asserted, but for her state of mind for what 5 was in her mind at the time that she was going to New Mexico, 6 why she felt comfortable, why she felt more comfortable going 7 to this trip. It's not being offered for the truth of the 8 matter; it's being offered for what her state of mind was when 9 she was going on this trip to New Mexico. 10 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, this is backdoor hearsay. 11 THE COURT: It is backdoor hearsay. 12 You can ask her about going on the trip, why she went 13 and why she was comfortable. But to the extent you're 14 eliciting -- which you clearly are -- hearsay as to what her 15 mother told her about who would be there, objection sustained. 16 MS. POMERANTZ: Okay. 17 MS. MENNINGER: Her mother is testifying; so if 18 there's a conversation between Epstein and her mother, I 19 understand that that would perhaps come in through the mother. 20 THE COURT: Right. 21 MS. POMERANTZ: Okay. Thank you, your Honor. 22 23 THE COURT: Counsel, the other thing you can say is 24 after you had your conversation with your mother, did you then 25 go to New Mexico. And again, you can ask her about her own experience, but not elicit the hearsay of what her mother told SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013635 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 44 of 267 2072 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 (At sidebar) 2 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 3 This information is being asked not for the truth of 4 the matter being asserted, but for her state of mind for what 5 was in her mind at the time that she was going to New Mexico, 6 why she felt comfortable, why she felt more comfortable going 7 to this trip. It's not being offered for the truth of the 8 matter; it's being offered for what her state of mind was when 9 she was going on this trip to New Mexico. 10 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, this is backdoor hearsay. 11 THE COURT: It is backdoor hearsay. 12 You can ask her about going on the trip, why she went 13 and why she was comfortable. But to the extent you're 14 eliciting -- which you clearly are -- hearsay as to what her 15 mother told her about who would be there, objection sustained. 16 MS. POMERANTZ: Okay. 17 MS. MENNINGER: Her mother is testifying; so if 18 there's a conversation between Epstein and her mother, I 19 understand that that would perhaps come in through the mother. 20 THE COURT: Right. 21 MS. POMERANTZ: Okay. Thank you, your Honor. 22 23 THE COURT: Counsel, the other thing you can say is 24 after you had your conversation with your mother, did you then 25 go to New Mexico. And again, you can ask her about her own experience, but not elicit the hearsay of what her mother told SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016260 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 45 of 267 2073 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 her. 2 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, just to the extent it's 3 why she went, it's, I understand after the conversation with 4 the mother, I went to New Mexico. But if it's the content from 5 the mother to her, that's where it gets into the hearsay piece. 6 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, just to clarify, the jury just 7 heard this witness say she felt uncomfortable around Jeffrey 8 Epstein; and that she knew something was wrong. The point of 9 this is not to give the truth of what the mother said, but to 10 explain why she was willing to go back to see Jeffrey Epstein 11 again. That is all we're trying to elicit. 12 THE COURT: You're trying to elicit that her mother 13 told her that Maxwell would be there, which is for the truth 14 and hearsay. In any event, because it is central to the 15 question coming in as hearsay, there's a 403 issue. I think 16 you can get this -- you can get who was there, etc., but not 17 what her mother told her for the truth, which is, I think, 18 plainly what you're trying to do. 19 MS. MOE: Your Honor, I can be more precise. 20 I think the questions would be, Did you feel 21 comfortable going to New Mexico? Why did you feel comfortable 22 going to New Mexico? And then we wouldn't object to a limiting 23 instruction. It's not offered for the truth, it's to explain 24 the progress of events and why she would feel comfortable doing 25 something like that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013636 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 45 of 267 2073 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 her. 2 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, just to the extent it's 3 why she went, it's, I understand after the conversation with 4 the mother, I went to New Mexico. But if it's the content from 5 the mother to her, that's where it gets into the hearsay piece. 6 MS. COMEY: Your Honor, just to clarify, the jury just 7 heard this witness say she felt uncomfortable around Jeffrey 8 Epstein; and that she knew something was wrong. The point of 9 this is not to give the truth of what the mother said, but to 10 explain why she was willing to go back to see Jeffrey Epstein 11 again. That is all we're trying to elicit. 12 THE COURT: You're trying to elicit that her mother 13 told her that Maxwell would be there, which is for the truth 14 and hearsay. In any event, because it is central to the 15 question coming in as hearsay, there's a 403 issue. I think 16 you can get this -- you can get who was there, etc., but not 17 what her mother told her for the truth, which is, I think, 18 plainly what you're trying to do. 19 MS. MOE: Your Honor, I can be more precise. 20 I think the questions would be, Did you feel 21 comfortable going to New Mexico? Why did you feel comfortable 22 going to New Mexico? And then we wouldn't object to a limiting 23 instruction. It's not offered for the truth, it's to explain 24 the progress of events and why she would feel comfortable doing 25 something like that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016261 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 46 of 267 2074 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 THE COURT: Counsel, there's a limit, and hearsay is the limit, and this is a central question. You have the witness, you have Maria Farmer coming to testify. I presume, although I don't know, that she can testify Ms. Farmer was there in New Mexico; correct? MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: And then you can ask her how she felt about that. But you can't do it through hearsay. Sustained. (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013637 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 46 of 267 2074 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 THE COURT: Counsel, there's a limit, and hearsay is the limit, and this is a central question. You have the witness, you have Maria Farmer coming to testify. I presume, although I don't know, that she can testify Ms. Farmer was there in New Mexico; correct? MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: And then you can ask her how she felt about that. But you can't do it through hearsay. Sustained. (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016262 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 47 of 267 2075 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 (In open court) 2 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 3 Q. Annie, did you travel to New Mexico? 4 A. I did. 5 Q. How did you travel to New Mexico? 6 A. I flew commercially. 7 Q. Did you pay for your ticket to New Mexico? 8 A. I did not. 9 Q. Did you thank anyone for paying for your ticket to New Mexico? 11 MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. 12 Foundation. Hearsay. 13 THE COURT: Foundation, overruled. Overruled. 14 A. I thanked Epstein when I got to New Mexico. 15 Q. Who, if anyone, did you travel with to New Mexico? 16 A. I traveled alone. 17 Q. Approximately when did you go to New Mexico? 18 A. The spring of 1996; I believe it was April. 19 Q. And approximately how long were you in New Mexico? 20 A. It was a weekend trip. 21 Q. When you landed in New Mexico, what happened next? 22 A. There was a man at the airport that had a sign with my name on it, and so I went with him. He was a driver. And he drove me out to the ranch. 24 Q. You mentioned the ranch. Can you describe the ranch for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013638 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 47 of 267 2075 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 (In open court) 2 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 3 Q. Annie, did you travel to New Mexico? 4 A. I did. 5 Q. How did you travel to New Mexico? 6 A. I flew commercially. 7 Q. Did you pay for your ticket to New Mexico? 8 A. I did not. 9 Q. Did you thank anyone for paying for your ticket to New Mexico? 11 MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. Foundation. Hearsay. 12 THE COURT: Foundation, overruled. Overruled. 14 A. I thanked Epstein when I got to New Mexico. 15 Q. Who, if anyone, did you travel with to New Mexico? 16 A. I traveled alone. 17 Q. Approximately when did you go to New Mexico? 18 A. The spring of 1996; I believe it was April. 19 Q. And approximately how long were you in New Mexico? 20 A. It was a weekend trip. 21 Q. When you landed in New Mexico, what happened next? 22 A. There was a man at the airport that had a sign with my name on it, and so I went with him. He was a driver. And he drove me out to the ranch. 25 Q. You mentioned the ranch. Can you describe the ranch for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016263 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 48 of 267 2076 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 the jury. 2 A. Yeah. It was a large -- a large piece of property in New 3 Mexico, so kind of a desert landscape. And there were 4 different sections. And there was one that had like an old 5 movie set, like a western movie set on it. And then there was 6 a portion where we were staying where there's a small 7 residence. 8 THE COURT: I'd ask you again, Ms. Farmer, if you can 9 maybe shift it a little bit closer to you. 10 Thank you. Perfect. Thank you. 11 Q. Who, if anyone, did you meet at the ranch? 12 A. When I arrived, I had met -- I mean, I saw Epstein, and 13 then I met Ghislaine Maxwell. 14 Q. What did Maxwell look like? 15 A. She was trim, attractive woman, well-dressed, dark hair. 16 Q. About how old did Maxwell seem? 17 A. I believe she was in her thirties, so at the time she was 18 an adult. 19 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, can we please pull up 20 what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 115. 21 Q. Annie, do you recognize the person in this photograph? 22 A. I do. 23 Q. Who is it? 24 A. Ghislaine Maxwell. 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can pull that down. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013639 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 48 of 267 2076 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 the jury. 2 A. Yeah. It was a large -- a large piece of property in New 3 Mexico, so kind of a desert landscape. And there were 4 different sections. And there was one that had like an old 5 movie set, like a western movie set on it. And then there was 6 a portion where we were staying where there's a small 7 residence. 8 THE COURT: I'd ask you again, Ms. Farmer, if you can 9 maybe shift it a little bit closer to you. 10 Thank you. Perfect. Thank you. 11 Q. Who, if anyone, did you meet at the ranch? 12 A. When I arrived, I had met -- I mean, I saw Epstein, and 13 then I met Ghislaine Maxwell. 14 Q. What did Maxwell look like? 15 A. She was trim, attractive woman, well-dressed, dark hair. 16 Q. About how old did Maxwell seem? 17 A. I believe she was in her thirties, so at the time she was 18 an adult. 19 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, can we please pull up 20 what's in evidence as Government Exhibit 115. 21 Q. Annie, do you recognize the person in this photograph? 22 A. I do. 23 Q. Who is it? 24 A. Ghislaine Maxwell. 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can pull that down. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016264 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 49 of 267 2077 L CAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 Thank you. 2 Q. What did Maxwell sound like? 3 A. She had a British accent and she was well-spoken and articulate. And she was enthusiastic in greeting me and speaking with me. 4 5 Q. Annie, had you wanted to go to New Mexico at the time? 6 A. No, I was not eager to go to New Mexico. 7 Q. What, if anything, made you feel more comfortable about going to New Mexico? 8 9 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: I'm going to overrule here and I'll adopt a limiting instruction. 11 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 12 A. I had been told that Maxwell would be in New Mexico with Epstein; and so that made me feel more comfortable. Basically, after what had happened in the movie theater in New York, I did not want to be alone with him. But I thought that Ghislaine was his romantic partner, and I didn't think he would do anything like that while they were together. 13 14 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I think we need to say who told her that. 15 THE COURT: Okay. You may ask and then I'll give the instruction. 16 Q. Who told you that? 17 A. I was told by my mother. 18 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 19 DOJ-OGR-00013640 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 49 of 267 2077 L CAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 Thank you. 2 Q. What did Maxwell sound like? 3 A. She had a British accent and she was well-spoken and articulate. And she was enthusiastic in greeting me and speaking with me. 4 5 6 Q. Annie, had you wanted to go to New Mexico at the time? 7 A. No, I was not eager to go to New Mexico. 8 Q. What, if anything, made you feel more comfortable about going to New Mexico? 9 10 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: I'm going to overrule here and I'll adopt a limiting instruction. 12 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 14 A. I had been told that Maxwell would be in New Mexico with Epstein; and so that made me feel more comfortable. Basically, after what had happened in the movie theater in New York, I did not want to be alone with him. But I thought that Ghislaine was his romantic partner, and I didn't think he would do anything like that while they were together. 15 16 17 18 19 20 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I think we need to say who told her that. 21 22 THE COURT: Okay. You may ask and then I'll give the instruction. 23 24 Q. Who told you that? 25 A. I was told by my mother. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016265 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 50 of 267 2078 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 THE COURT: Members of the jury, the testimony the witness provided about what her mother told her is not being offered for the truth, but for the limited purposes of the effect on the listener. 2 Go ahead. 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 4 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 5 Q. Based on your observations that weekend, what was your understanding at the time of the relationship between Epstein and Maxwell? 6 A. I believed that they were romantic partners. They were very intimate with each other in terms of touching each other and the way that they spoke with each other and interacted; it was what I had seen from couples. 7 Q. What happened after you got to the ranch? 8 A. When I first arrived, I remember we did a little bit of a tour, where I saw this portion I mentioned where there was this western movie set and, I believe, some horses. And, you know, I was, I guess, oriented a little bit to the property. 9 Q. Where did you stay at the ranch? 10 A. In a small residence. 11 Q. Who else stayed in that residence? 12 A. Epstein and Maxwell. 13 Q. Was anyone else staying in that area of the ranch? 14 A. No. 15 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 16 DOJ-OGR-00013641 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 50 of 267 2078 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 THE COURT: Members of the jury, the testimony the witness provided about what her mother told her is not being offered for the truth, but for the limited purposes of the effect on the listener. 2 Go ahead. 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 4 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 5 Q. Based on your observations that weekend, what was your understanding at the time of the relationship between Epstein and Maxwell? 6 A. I believed that they were romantic partners. They were very intimate with each other in terms of touching each other and the way that they spoke with each other and interacted; it was what I had seen from couples. 7 Q. What happened after you got to the ranch? 8 A. When I first arrived, I remember we did a little bit of a tour, where I saw this portion I mentioned where there was this western movie set and, I believe, some horses. And, you know, I was, I guess, oriented a little bit to the property. 9 Q. Where did you stay at the ranch? 10 A. In a small residence. 11 Q. Who else stayed in that residence? 12 A. Epstein and Maxwell. 13 Q. Was anyone else staying in that area of the ranch? 14 A. No. 15 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 16 DOJ-OGR-00016266 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 51 of 267 2079 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 Q. Did you see staff at the ranch that weekend? 2 A. Yes, I did see like a couple of men that I believe were 3 ranch hands or caretakers for the property; and the driver, you 4 know, I mentioned who took me to the airport. 5 Q. Apart from staff and Epstein and Maxwell, was anyone else 6 staying at the residence? 7 A. No. 8 Q. What was your reaction at the time about being at the ranch 9 with only Epstein and Maxwell? 10 A. I think it was -- you know, it seemed unusual in a way, 11 being that I was a teenager, to be spending this time with 12 them. But I also -- there is a way in which it sort of made me 13 feel special that they would want to spend this time with me. 14 So I think it was a mixed bag. 15 Q. Based on your initial conversations with Maxwell, did you 16 have the impression that she was surprised to see you or did 17 she seem to expect you? 18 A. She did not seem surprised to see me at all. She -- yeah, 19 she seemed to know who I was and be excited to be meeting me. 20 Q. What was your impression of Maxwell? 21 A. She was very outgoing and talked a bit of engaging with me, 22 so I enjoyed meeting with her and talking with her. 23 Q. What, if anything, did you and Maxwell talk about? 24 A. She was just, you know, making conversation with me about 25 my life, asking me -- I remember we talked a bit about my SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013642 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 51 of 267 2079 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 Q. Did you see staff at the ranch that weekend? 2 A. Yes, I did see like a couple of men that I believe were 3 ranch hands or caretakers for the property; and the driver, you 4 know, I mentioned who took me to the airport. 5 Q. Apart from staff and Epstein and Maxwell, was anyone else 6 staying at the residence? 7 A. No. 8 Q. What was your reaction at the time about being at the ranch 9 with only Epstein and Maxwell? 10 A. I think it was -- you know, it seemed unusual in a way, 11 being that I was a teenager, to be spending this time with 12 them. But I also -- there is a way in which it sort of made me 13 feel special that they would want to spend this time with me. 14 So I think it was a mixed bag. 15 Q. Based on your initial conversations with Maxwell, did you 16 have the impression that she was surprised to see you or did 17 she seem to expect you? 18 A. She did not seem surprised to see me at all. She -- yeah, 19 she seemed to know who I was and be excited to be meeting me. 20 Q. What was your impression of Maxwell? 21 A. She was very outgoing and talked a bit of engaging with me, 22 so I enjoyed meeting with her and talking with her. 23 Q. What, if anything, did you and Maxwell talk about? 24 A. She was just, you know, making conversation with me about 25 my life, asking me -- I remember we talked a bit about my SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016267 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 52 of 267 2080 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct school, and I was writing a paper about some British authors. And I remember bringing this up to her and talking to her about that. And I think just, you know, kind of general life things, what I was doing. Q. You mentioned that Epstein and Maxwell gave you a tour of the ranch. Did you leave the ranch that weekend? A. We did. Q. Where did you go? A. We went into town, and I remember we did a little bit of shopping. We went to a natural food store of some sort. And Ghislaine offered to buy me some product. I remember she bought me this henna hair lightening cream of some kind. And then on that same outing, we went to a western wear store where they had me try on cowboy boots and purchased a pair of cowboy boots for me. Q. When you said "we went shopping," who went shopping? A. Epstein, Maxwell, and myself. Q. What did the cowboy boots look like? A. They were black leather pointy standard cowboy boots. Q. Who bought the boots for you? A. Epstein. Q. And who was present at the time of the boots being purchased? A. Maxwell as well. Q. Did you keep the cowboy boots? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013643 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 52 of 267 2080 LCAVMAX2 1 school, and I was writing a paper about some British authors. 2 And I remember bringing this up to her and talking to her about 3 that. And I think just, you know, kind of general life things, 4 what I was doing. 5 Q. You mentioned that Epstein and Maxwell gave you a tour of 6 the ranch. Did you leave the ranch that weekend? 7 A. We did. 8 Q. Where did you go? 9 A. We went into town, and I remember we did a little bit of 10 shopping. We went to a natural food store of some sort. And 11 Ghislaine offered to buy me some product. I remember she 12 bought me this henna hair lightening cream of some kind. And 13 then on that same outing, we went to a western wear store where 14 they had me try on cowboy boots and purchased a pair of cowboy 15 boots for me. 16 Q. When you said "we went shopping," who went shopping? 17 A. Epstein, Maxwell, and myself. 18 Q. What did the cowboy boots look like? 19 A. They were black leather pointy standard cowboy boots. 20 Q. Who bought the boots for you? 21 A. Epstein. 22 Q. And who was present at the time of the boots being 23 purchased? 24 A. Maxwell as well. 25 Q. Did you keep the cowboy boots? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016268 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 53 of 267 2081 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. I -- yes, I did. 2 Q. What was your reaction at the time that the cowboy boots were purchased for you? 3 A. It was -- I remember it seemed -- because they cost over 4 $100, it seemed they were very expensive to me. And so, you 5 know, I was very grateful; although I didn't really have any 6 reason to be wearing cowboy boots, so it wasn't something I had 7 been seeking out or wanting. But the -- you know, I was 8 gracious about it. 9 10 Q. Did there come a time when you left the ranch again? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Where did you go? 13 A. We went to the movies. 14 Q. Who went to the movies? 15 A. Sorry. Maxwell, Epstein, and I. 16 Q. Did you want to go to the movies? 17 A. No. I think because of what had happened in the movie 18 theater in New York, I was -- that was not something I was 19 eager to do. But I imagined it would be different this time 20 because Maxwell was there. 21 Q. What, if anything, happened before you went in to watch the 22 movie? 23 A. Oh, so the movie theater is in sort of a mall area, and 24 we -- there was a ticket counter and they purchased tickets and 25 we were waiting to go in. And Epstein and Maxwell were being SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013644 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 53 of 267 2081 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. I -- yes, I did. 2 Q. What was your reaction at the time that the cowboy boots were purchased for you? 3 A. It was -- I remember it seemed -- because they cost over 4 $100, it seemed they were very expensive to me. And so, you 5 know, I was very grateful; although I didn't really have any 6 reason to be wearing cowboy boots, so it wasn't something I had 7 been seeking out or wanting. But the -- you know, I was 8 gracious about it. 9 10 Q. Did there come a time when you left the ranch again? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Where did you go? 13 A. We went to the movies. 14 Q. Who went to the movies? 15 A. Sorry. Maxwell, Epstein, and I. 16 Q. Did you want to go to the movies? 17 A. No. I think because of what had happened in the movie 18 theater in New York, I was -- that was not something I was 19 eager to do. But I imagined it would be different this time 20 because Maxwell was there. 21 Q. What, if anything, happened before you went in to watch the 22 movie? 23 A. Oh, so the movie theater is in sort of a mall area, and 24 we -- there was a ticket counter and they purchased tickets and 25 we were waiting to go in. And Epstein and Maxwell were being SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016269 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 54 of 267 2082 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct very, like, playful with each other and kind of grabbing each other. And Maxwell went to, like, pull Epstein's pants down a little bit and, you know, sort of like depantsing someone, which seemed very odd to me at the time because they were adults and this is the kind of thing, you know, I would expect more from younger people. And so I was kind of, you know, just caught off guard by it and thought it seemed odd. Q. What movie did you see? A. We saw Primal Fear. Q. How were you, Epstein, and Maxwell seated during the movie? A. I was seated next to Epstein, and I believe Maxwell was on his other side. Q. What, if anything, happened during the movie? A. It was very similar to the first time that I went to the movies with Epstein in that he right away began to hold my hand and caress it and, you know -- and rub on my -- on my foot and on my arm. Q. For approximately how much of the movie did Epstein touch you in the way you just described? A. Throughout the majority of the movie. And he also had popcorn, I think, and was, you know, eating. But it was -- he did not -- unlike in New York, he didn't seem to be concerned about hiding those behaviors. He was very blatant in doing it throughout the film. Q. How did what Epstein do in the movie theater in New Mexico SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013645 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 54 of 267 2082 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct very, like, playful with each other and kind of grabbing each other. And Maxwell went to, like, pull Epstein's pants down a little bit and, you know, sort of like depantsing someone, which seemed very odd to me at the time because they were adults and this is the kind of thing, you know, I would expect more from younger people. And so I was kind of, you know, just caught off guard by it and thought it seemed odd. Q. What movie did you see? A. We saw Primal Fear. Q. How were you, Epstein, and Maxwell seated during the movie? A. I was seated next to Epstein, and I believe Maxwell was on his other side. Q. What, if anything, happened during the movie? A. It was very similar to the first time that I went to the movies with Epstein in that he right away began to hold my hand and caress it and, you know -- and rub on my -- on my foot and on my arm. Q. For approximately how much of the movie did Epstein touch you in the way you just described? A. Throughout the majority of the movie. And he also had popcorn, I think, and was, you know, eating. But it was -- he did not -- unlike in New York, he didn't seem to be concerned about hiding those behaviors. He was very blatant in doing it throughout the film. Q. How did what Epstein do in the movie theater in New Mexico SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016270 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 55 of 267 2083 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 compare with what he did in the movie theater in New York? 2 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. 3 Asked and answered, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Overruled. 5 A. Yeah. I'd say it was very similar, except for more 6 blatant -- like not -- he wasn't -- he wasn't stopping. It was 7 just this is what he was doing. 8 Q. What else do you recall happening in New Mexico? 9 A. So we were at the movies. 10 Another experience after we were back at the residence 11 was that it was decided that I would learn how to give Epstein 12 a foot massage. Maxwell wanted to show me how to rub his feet; 13 and so that was something I should learn how to do. And so she 14 sat and held one of his feet, and then instructed me to hold 15 his other foot and showed me how to rub it. 16 Q. Where were you when this took place? 17 A. In the same little area. There was a couch. I think it 18 was kind of like a den type room. And yeah. 19 Q. Was this back at the ranch? 20 A. Back at the ranch, yeah. Sorry. 21 Q. Did you know how to give foot massages at that point? 22 A. No, I'd never been shown how to do that. 23 Q. What, if anything, did Epstein have on his feet during the 24 massage? 25 A. He was not wearing any socks or anything; it was just SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013646 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 55 of 267 2083 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 compare with what he did in the movie theater in New York? 2 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. 3 Asked and answered, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Overruled. 5 A. Yeah. I'd say it was very similar, except for more 6 blatant -- like not -- he wasn't -- he wasn't stopping. It was 7 just this is what he was doing. 8 Q. What else do you recall happening in New Mexico? 9 A. So we were at the movies. 10 Another experience after we were back at the residence 11 was that it was decided that I would learn how to give Epstein 12 a foot massage. Maxwell wanted to show me how to rub his feet; 13 and so that was something I should learn how to do. And so she 14 sat and held one of his feet, and then instructed me to hold 15 his other foot and showed me how to rub it. 16 Q. Where were you when this took place? 17 A. In the same little area. There was a couch. I think it 18 was kind of like a den type room. And yeah. 19 Q. Was this back at the ranch? 20 A. Back at the ranch, yeah. Sorry. 21 Q. Did you know how to give foot massages at that point? 22 A. No, I'd never been shown how to do that. 23 Q. What, if anything, did Epstein have on his feet during the 24 massage? 25 A. He was not wearing any socks or anything; it was just SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016271 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 56 of 267 2084 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct his -- his bare feet. Q. How did you know how to give him a massage? A. I just -- you know, I watched what she was doing. And she instructed me, you know, you pull back his big toe, rub this part of his foot, you know. And so I did what she told me. Q. What did Epstein do while you were rubbing his feet? A. He seemed, you know, to be enjoying it. He sort of made like groaning noises like he was -- it felt good to him. Q. How did you feel while you were rubbing his feet? A. I felt very uncomfortable. I did not want to be touching his feet. And also just the whole situation made -- I wanted to stop and I was hoping it would be over quickly. Q. What, if anything, did Maxwell ask you about your experience with massages during this trip? A. She asked me if I'd ever had a professional massage and, you know, talked about what a lovely experience it was and how enjoyable it was to get a massage. Q. What, if anything, did Maxwell do next? A. She said that, you know, she wanted me to have that experience, and she would be happy to give me a massage. And so encouraged me to say that, yes, okay, I would get a massage from her. Q. Did Maxwell give you a massage? A. She did. Q. Where in the house did Maxwell give you a massage? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 56 of 267 2084 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct his -- his bare feet. Q. How did you know how to give him a massage? A. I just -- you know, I watched what she was doing. And she instructed me, you know, you pull back his big toe, rub this part of his foot, you know. And so I did what she told me. Q. What did Epstein do while you were rubbing his feet? A. He seemed, you know, to be enjoying it. He sort of made like groaning noises like he was -- it felt good to him. Q. How did you feel while you were rubbing his feet? A. I felt very uncomfortable. I did not want to be touching his feet. And also just the whole situation made -- I wanted to stop and I was hoping it would be over quickly. Q. What, if anything, did Maxwell ask you about your experience with massages during this trip? A. She asked me if I'd ever had a professional massage and, you know, talked about what a lovely experience it was and how enjoyable it was to get a massage. Q. What, if anything, did Maxwell do next? A. She said that, you know, she wanted me to have that experience, and she would be happy to give me a massage. And so encouraged me to say that, yes, okay, I would get a massage from her. Q. Did Maxwell give you a massage? A. She did. Q. Where in the house did Maxwell give you a massage? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016272 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 57 of 267 2085 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. My best recollection is that she set up a table in the room where I was staying. 2 Q. You said she set up a table. Can you describe the table. 3 A. It was, I think, a standard kind of massage table that's portable that has the legs that, you know, can be extended and has padding on top. 4 Q. What were you wearing during the massage? 5 A. Nothing. 6 Q. Why did you -- why were you wearing nothing during the massage? 7 A. She told me to get undressed. 8 Q. When you say "she," who are you referring to? 9 A. I'm sorry. Maxwell. 10 Q. What happened during the massage? 11 A. She, you know, said to get undressed and lay under the sheet on the massage table. And I did. And then she, you know, started rubbing my body and rubbing my back and my legs. And while she's doing this, she's just making -- you know, making small talk. And then at some point in the massage she had me roll over so I was laying on my back. 12 Q. And what happened once you were laying on your back? 13 A. She pulled the sheet down and exposed my breasts and started rubbing on my chest and on my -- on my upper breasts. 14 Q. When she touched your breasts, what was your reaction? 15 A. I mean, once she pulled down the sheet, I felt like kind of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013648 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 57 of 267 2085 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. My best recollection is that she set up a table in the room where I was staying. 2 Q. You said she set up a table. Can you describe the table. 3 A. It was, I think, a standard kind of massage table that's portable that has the legs that, you know, can be extended and has padding on top. 4 Q. What were you wearing during the massage? 5 A. Nothing. 6 Q. Why did you -- why were you wearing nothing during the massage? 7 A. She told me to get undressed. 8 Q. When you say "she," who are you referring to? 9 A. I'm sorry. Maxwell. 10 Q. What happened during the massage? 11 A. She, you know, said to get undressed and lay under the sheet on the massage table. And I did. And then she, you know, started rubbing my body and rubbing my back and my legs. And while she's doing this, she's just making -- you know, making small talk. And then at some point in the massage she had me roll over so I was laying on my back. 12 Q. And what happened once you were laying on your back? 13 A. She pulled the sheet down and exposed my breasts and started rubbing on my chest and on my -- on my upper breasts. 14 Q. When she touched your breasts, what was your reaction? 15 A. I mean, once she pulled down the sheet, I felt like kind of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016273 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 58 of 267 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 frozen; because I knew that that was very -- just, it didn't 2 make sense to me that that would happen, and I was surprised. 3 And, you know, I just wanted to -- badly to get off of the 4 table and have this massage be done. 5 Q. Who was present during the massage? 6 A. It was Maxwell and I. But the door to the room was open. 7 And I was fearful, especially at that moment, that Epstein -- I 8 just had the sense that he could see me. But I don't have a 9 memory of him standing nearby or of seeing his face, but I 10 just -- I had this sense that he might be able to. 11 Q. What else, if anything, happened during your weekend in New 12 Mexico? 13 A. I guess the other memory that stands out the most is being 14 in bed in the morning, and suddenly Epstein kind of opening my 15 door and sort of bounding into the room in this sort of playful 16 way and saying that he wanted to cuddle. And so he climbed 17 into bed with me and kind of laid behind me and reached his 18 arms around me and he pressed his body into me. 19 Q. Did you want to cuddle with Epstein? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did you tell him you did not want to cuddle with him? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Why not? 24 A. I was very aware at that time that I was, you know, very 25 isolated; that, you know, I was on this ranch with these two SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013649 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 58 of 267 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 frozen; because I knew that that was very -- just, it didn't 2 make sense to me that that would happen, and I was surprised. 3 And, you know, I just wanted to -- badly to get off of the 4 table and have this massage be done. 5 Q. Who was present during the massage? 6 A. It was Maxwell and I. But the door to the room was open. 7 And I was fearful, especially at that moment, that Epstein -- I 8 just had the sense that he could see me. But I don't have a 9 memory of him standing nearby or of seeing his face, but I 10 just -- I had this sense that he might be able to. 11 Q. What else, if anything, happened during your weekend in New 12 Mexico? 13 A. I guess the other memory that stands out the most is being 14 in bed in the morning, and suddenly Epstein kind of opening my 15 door and sort of bounding into the room in this sort of playful 16 way and saying that he wanted to cuddle. And so he climbed 17 into bed with me and kind of laid behind me and reached his 18 arms around me and he pressed his body into me. 19 Q. Did you want to cuddle with Epstein? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did you tell him you did not want to cuddle with him? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Why not? 24 A. I was very aware at that time that I was, you know, very 25 isolated; that, you know, I was on this ranch with these two SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016274 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 59 of 267 2087 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct people and, you know, no one's safe for a great distance. And so I just had thought, like, I just need to get through this and then it will be fine. And so I just -- you know, I didn't say anything. Q. Did Epstein cuddle you? A. Yeah. Q. Can you explain what happened. A. Yeah. He just -- you know, as I said, he kind of had his arms around me and I felt, again, kind of frozen. And then I thought I have to have an excuse to get out of this. And so I just said I needed to go to the bathroom. And it was in my bedroom area and there was a bathroom near. And so I just made the excuse and got out of bed and went into the bathroom and shut the door. Q. What did you do while you were in the bathroom? A. I just, you know, waited. And I don't remember how long I was in there, you know, I just remember thinking, like, I wanted to be in there long enough that this hopefully situation would be over. Q. What was your reaction to the series of events in New Mexico that you've just testified about culminating with Epstein getting into bed with you? A. My reaction at that time? Q. At that time. A. Yeah, I just wanted -- I wanted the weekend to be over. I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013650 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 59 of 267 2087 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct people and, you know, no one's safe for a great distance. And so I just had thought, like, I just need to get through this and then it will be fine. And so I just -- you know, I didn't say anything. Q. Did Epstein cuddle you? A. Yeah. Q. Can you explain what happened. A. Yeah. He just -- you know, as I said, he kind of had his arms around me and I felt, again, kind of frozen. And then I thought I have to have an excuse to get out of this. And so I just said I needed to go to the bathroom. And it was in my bedroom area and there was a bathroom near. And so I just made the excuse and got out of bed and went into the bathroom and shut the door. Q. What did you do while you were in the bathroom? A. I just, you know, waited. And I don't remember how long I was in there, you know, I just remember thinking, like, I wanted to be in there long enough that this hopefully situation would be over. Q. What was your reaction to the series of events in New Mexico that you've just testified about culminating with Epstein getting into bed with you? A. My reaction at that time? Q. At that time. A. Yeah, I just wanted -- I wanted the weekend to be over. I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016275 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 60 of 267 2088 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 felt very -- like, I thought I had been brought there because of, you know, one set of reasons; like, I thought that he was interested and they were both interested in me as, like, a student; that they may want to help in an academic way. So I was trying to be sort of impressive in that way and talk about things that they wanted to hear about. And all these experiences made me feel that they had a very different interest in me. And so it was extremely kind of disorienting and I just was wanted to be done with it. Q. What, if anything, did you discuss with Maxwell during your last day on the ranch in New Mexico? A. What I remember about that, just this final conversation was that I was sort of trying to reengage with her around, like, this academic stuff. And I had brought, like, three by five note cards for this paper that I was writing where I had little, like, facts on them. And we were sitting outside on what seemed like kind of a deck area. And I was going through them and I was trying to get her to talk to me about them, I think, in a way, like, to make myself feel better, like, maybe they did care about that. And she just seemed like very disinterested and kind of like, you know, she didn't care. Q. Did you say good-bye to Epstein and Maxwell before you left New Mexico? A. Yes. Q. Where did you go when you left New Mexico? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013651 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 60 of 267 2088 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 felt very -- like, I thought I had been brought there because 2 of, you know, one set of reasons; like, I thought that he was 3 interested and they were both interested in me as, like, a 4 student; that they may want to help in an academic way. So I 5 was trying to be sort of impressive in that way and talk about 6 things that they wanted to hear about. And all these 7 experiences made me feel that they had a very different 8 interest in me. And so it was extremely kind of disorienting 9 and I just was wanted to be done with it. 10 Q. What, if anything, did you discuss with Maxwell during your 11 last day on the ranch in New Mexico? 12 A. What I remember about that, just this final conversation 13 was that I was sort of trying to reengage with her around, 14 like, this academic stuff. And I had brought, like, three by 15 five note cards for this paper that I was writing where I had 16 little, like, facts on them. And we were sitting outside on 17 what seemed like kind of a deck area. And I was going through 18 them and I was trying to get her to talk to me about them, I 19 think, in a way, like, to make myself feel better, like, maybe 20 they did care about that. And she just seemed like very 21 disinterested and kind of like, you know, she didn't care. 22 Q. Did you say good-bye to Epstein and Maxwell before you left 23 New Mexico? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Where did you go when you left New Mexico? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016276 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 61 of 267 2089 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. I flew home to Phoenix. 2 Q. How did you get to the airport? 3 A. I think it was the same driver, but a driver drove me back to the airport. 4 5 Q. How did you fly home to Arizona? 6 A. Commercially by myself. 7 Q. Who picked you up from the airport? 8 A. My mom. 9 Q. You testified earlier about your journal. Did you write in your journal about your trip to New Mexico? 10 11 A. No. 12 Q. Why not? 13 A. I think I just really didn't want to think about it; and, you know, writing would be a way of, like, me having to think more about what had happened. And I just wanted to put it out of my mind. 14 15 16 17 Q. You testified earlier about boots that Maxwell and Epstein purchased for you during a shopping trip in New Mexico. You said that you had kept the boots; is that right? 18 19 A. Yes. Yeah. 20 21 Q. Why did you keep the boots? 22 A. I think initially I just sort of got home and shoved them to the back of my closet. And then when I graduated from high school, my mom moved. And everything in my closet I just packed into boxes. And they were in her storage for a number 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013652 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 61 of 267 2089 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. I flew home to Phoenix. 2 Q. How did you get to the airport? 3 A. I think it was the same driver, but a driver drove me back to the airport. 4 5 Q. How did you fly home to Arizona? 6 A. Commercially by myself. 7 Q. Who picked you up from the airport? 8 A. My mom. 9 Q. You testified earlier about your journal. Did you write in your journal about your trip to New Mexico? 10 11 A. No. 12 Q. Why not? 13 A. I think I just really didn't want to think about it; and, you know, writing would be a way of, like, me having to think more about what had happened. And I just wanted to put it out of my mind. 14 15 16 17 Q. You testified earlier about boots that Maxwell and Epstein purchased for you during a shopping trip in New Mexico. You said that you had kept the boots; is that right? 18 19 A. Yes. Yeah. 20 21 Q. Why did you keep the boots? 22 A. I think initially I just sort of got home and shoved them to the back of my closet. And then when I graduated from high school, my mom moved. And everything in my closet I just packed into boxes. And they were in her storage for a number 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016277 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 62 of 267 2090 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 of years. 2 And then when I interviewed with agents about this in, 3 I think, late 2006/early 2007, they asked me if I still had 4 those, and I didn't know. So at some point I found them next 5 time I visited my mom. And I held onto them for some time, 6 hoping maybe, you know, they would want them. And then when 7 that didn't seem to come to pass, I just thought, I live in 8 Texas, now I have these boots, and I'm going to kind of reclaim 9 them and use these boots. 10 Q. Did you start wearing those boots? 11 A. I did wear those boots. 12 Q. I want to change topics. 13 Where, if anywhere, did you go during the summer of 14 1996? 15 A. I went on a trip to Thailand and Vietnam. 16 Q. How long were you in Thailand and Vietnam? 17 A. For six weeks. 18 Q. What were you doing in Thailand and Vietnam? 19 A. It was like a cultural emerging trip/service trip. So we 20 built like a community building, and we did some teaching in 21 schools, and then just did some hiking and kind of fun things. 22 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up 23 for just the witness, the parties, and the Court what has been 24 marked for identification as Government Exhibit 103. 25 Q. Annie, do you recognize this? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013653 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 62 of 267 2090 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 of years. 2 And then when I interviewed with agents about this in, 3 I think, late 2006/early 2007, they asked me if I still had 4 those, and I didn't know. So at some point I found them next 5 time I visited my mom. And I held onto them for some time, 6 hoping maybe, you know, they would want them. And then when 7 that didn't seem to come to pass, I just thought, I live in 8 Texas, now I have these boots, and I'm going to kind of reclaim 9 them and use these boots. 10 Q. Did you start wearing those boots? 11 A. I did wear those boots. 12 Q. I want to change topics. 13 Where, if anywhere, did you go during the summer of 14 1996? 15 A. I went on a trip to Thailand and Vietnam. 16 Q. How long were you in Thailand and Vietnam? 17 A. For six weeks. 18 Q. What were you doing in Thailand and Vietnam? 19 A. It was like a cultural emerging trip/service trip. So we 20 built like a community building, and we did some teaching in 21 schools, and then just did some hiking and kind of fun things. 22 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, would you please pull up 23 for just the witness, the parties, and the Court what has been 24 marked for identification as Government Exhibit 103. 25 Q. Annie, do you recognize this? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016278 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 63 of 267 2091 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. Yes, it's a photo of me on that trip to Thailand. 2 Q. Is this a fair and accurate depiction of your physical appearance during the summer of 1996? 3 4 A. It is. 5 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers Government Exhibit 103 in evidence. 6 7 MS. MENNINGER: No objection. 8 THE COURT: GX-103 is admitted. You may publish. 9 (Government's Exhibit 103 received in evidence) 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 11 Q. Annie, how old were you at the time this photograph was taken? 12 13 A. I was 17. 14 Q. Had you turned 17 over the summer? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And where was this photograph taken? 17 A. It was in Thailand. 18 MS. POMERANTZ: We can take that down, Ms. Drescher. 19 Thank you. 20 Q. Who paid for your trip to Thailand and Vietnam? 21 A. Epstein. 22 Q. When you left Thailand and Vietnam, where did you go? 23 A. I went back to Phoenix. 24 Q. And when you got back, did you want to see Maxwell and Epstein again? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013654 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 63 of 267 2091 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. Yes, it's a photo of me on that trip to Thailand. 2 Q. Is this a fair and accurate depiction of your physical appearance during the summer of 1996? 3 A. It is. 4 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government offers 5 Government Exhibit 103 in evidence. 6 MS. MENNINGER: No objection. 7 THE COURT: GX-103 is admitted. You may publish. 8 (Government's Exhibit 103 received in evidence) 9 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 10 Q. Annie, how old were you at the time this photograph was taken? 11 A. I was 17. 12 Q. Had you turned 17 over the summer? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And where was this photograph taken? 15 A. It was in Thailand. 16 MS. POMERANTZ: We can take that down, Ms. Drescher. 17 Thank you. 18 Q. Who paid for your trip to Thailand and Vietnam? 19 A. Epstein. 20 Q. When you left Thailand and Vietnam, where did you go? 21 A. I went back to Phoenix. 22 Q. And when you got back, did you want to see Maxwell and 23 Epstein again? 24 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016279 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 64 of 267 2092 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. No. 2 Q. At that point, how were you feeling about Maxwell and Epstein? 3 4 A. I think, you know, again, I felt conflicted because I had had -- I had been on this trip, which is something I never could have done without, you know, Epstein's support. But I -- so I felt I should be grateful for that. 5 6 But the experience that I had with Maxwell and Epstein in New Mexico was so uncomfortable that I didn't -- you know, I was very much hoping I would never have to be around them again. Then I felt sort of guilty about that because of -- you know, again, because they had paid for this trip. 7 8 Q. From that point on, did you have any contact with Maxwell and Epstein? 9 10 A. I did not. 11 Q. Did there come a time when you told someone about your experiences with Maxwell and Epstein? 12 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Who did you first tell? 15 16 A. I had a brief conversation with my mom just acknowledging that something uncomfortable had happened, but I didn't go into any details with her about that. 17 18 Q. What did you tell your mom? 19 20 MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. Hearsay. 21 THE COURT: I'll hear from you, counsel. 22 23 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 24 DOJ-OGR-00013655 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 64 of 267 2092 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. No. 2 Q. At that point, how were you feeling about Maxwell and Epstein? 3 4 A. I think, you know, again, I felt conflicted because I had had -- I had been on this trip, which is something I never could have done without, you know, Epstein's support. But I -- so I felt I should be grateful for that. 5 6 But the experience that I had with Maxwell and Epstein in New Mexico was so uncomfortable that I didn't -- you know, I was very much hoping I would never have to be around them again. Then I felt sort of guilty about that because of -- you know, again, because they had paid for this trip. 7 8 Q. From that point on, did you have any contact with Maxwell and Epstein? 9 10 A. I did not. 11 Q. Did there come a time when you told someone about your experiences with Maxwell and Epstein? 12 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Who did you first tell? 15 16 A. I had a brief conversation with my mom just acknowledging that something uncomfortable had happened, but I didn't go into any details with her about that. 17 18 Q. What did you tell your mom? 19 20 MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. Hearsay. 21 THE COURT: I'll hear from you, counsel. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016280 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 65 of 267 2093 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 (At sidebar) 2 THE COURT: Is this not a prior consistent statement 3 that was litigated or discussed? 4 MS. POMERANTZ: This is a prior consistent statement, 5 your Honor. 6 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I don't believe that we 7 have impeached her yet or called her story into question in 8 opening about this issue. So I'm a little -- I understand that 9 eventually it may be, if I do impeach her. 10 THE COURT: The opening questioned the veracity of all 11 of the accusers. 12 MS. MENNINGER: Not on every point, your Honor. I 13 mean -- 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MS. MENNINGER: Not that she was there, for example, 16 or anything like that. So I don't believe that it's been 17 opened, and I think it's just bolstering. 18 THE COURT: Well, is the statement just that she's 19 going to be there or what's -- what is the anticipated 20 statement? 21 MS. MENNINGER: Actually, my reading of the discovery 22 is that she told her mom, I wasn't raped. And so if that's 23 what is planned to be elicited, that's going to be a problem 24 for a lot of other reasons that have been litigated. 25 THE COURT: Is that what she's going to say? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013656 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 65 of 267 2093 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 (At sidebar) 2 THE COURT: Is this not a prior consistent statement 3 that was litigated or discussed? 4 MS. POMERANTZ: This is a prior consistent statement, 5 your Honor. 6 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I don't believe that we 7 have impeached her yet or called her story into question in 8 opening about this issue. So I'm a little -- I understand that 9 eventually it may be, if I do impeach her. 10 THE COURT: The opening questioned the veracity of all 11 of the accusers. 12 MS. MENNINGER: Not on every point, your Honor. I 13 mean -- 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MS. MENNINGER: Not that she was there, for example, 16 or anything like that. So I don't believe that it's been 17 opened, and I think it's just bolstering. 18 THE COURT: Well, is the statement just that she's 19 going to be there or what's -- what is the anticipated 20 statement? 21 MS. MENNINGER: Actually, my reading of the discovery 22 is that she told her mom, I wasn't raped. And so if that's 23 what is planned to be elicited, that's going to be a problem 24 for a lot of other reasons that have been litigated. 25 THE COURT: Is that what she's going to say? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016281 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 66 of 267 2094 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct MS. POMERANTZ: My understanding, your Honor, of what she's going to say is that she didn't want to talk about it; that something had happened. There are times where she has used that word. In our several last meetings she has not used that word. But she has said, I didn't want to get into details with my mom. I told her something had happened. MS. MENNINGER: The quote in discovery is, I told her I wasn't raped, and I don't want this to ruin my life. So I'm a little worried about the "rape" word being used by the witness in this context, especially because we've litigated extensively that consent and -- MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the defense has put the memory of the witnesses, of the victims, at issue from the start at their opening, and they are incentitives. THE COURT: I'm overruling. It's an anticipated prior consistent statement based on the clear attack on the credibility of the allegations of all of the alleged victims. We'll see what comes. A statement that she wasn't raped is not suggesting that she was raped; that's suggesting the opposite. MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, if I might add, it's the use of the word and knowing how inflammatory it is and the restrictions put on it to now allow them to even suggest, that is extremely loaded and extraordinarily prejudicial. This has nothing to do with the opening with regard to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013657 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 66 of 267 2094 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 MS. POMERANTZ: My understanding, your Honor, of what she's going to say is that she didn't want to talk about it; that something had happened. There are times where she has used that word. In our several last meetings she has not used that word. But she has said, I didn't want to get into details with my mom. I told her something had happened. 6 MS. MENNINGER: The quote in discovery is, I told her I wasn't raped, and I don't want this to ruin my life. 8 So I'm a little worried about the "rape" word being used by the witness in this context, especially because we've litigated extensively that consent and -- 11 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the defense has put the memory of the witnesses, of the victims, at issue from the start at their opening, and they are incentitives. 14 THE COURT: I'm overruling. 15 It's an anticipated prior consistent statement based on the clear attack on the credibility of the allegations of all of the alleged victims. We'll see what comes. A statement that she wasn't raped is not suggesting that she was raped; that's suggesting the opposite. 20 MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, if I might add, it's the use of the word and knowing how inflammatory it is and the restrictions put on it to now allow them to even suggest, that is extremely loaded and extraordinarily prejudicial. 24 This has nothing to do with the opening with regard to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016282 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 67 of 267 2095 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct this witness at all, and it's extremely far afield. MS. MENNINGER: I can tell your Honor we're not challenging the statements that she had a foot massage, a body massage, and so forth. So there may be some of the details of her memory that are off, but we did not put in to challenge that she had those contacts. That's why we worded the limiting instruction "the physical contact." And to use the word "rape," when she's above the age of consent -- THE COURT: She's saying not raped. It's the opposite of raped. It's not raped. MS. MENNINGER: Well, your Honor -- THE COURT: I'll allow the question as a prior -- I'm overruling the objection because it's an anticipated prior consistent statement in which the credibility of all of the witnesses as to what occurred has been attacked. I don't think this needs to be sealed. MS. POMERANTZ: No. THE COURT: Okay. Not sealed. (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013658 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 67 of 267 2095 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct this witness at all, and it's extremely far afield. MS. MENNINGER: I can tell your Honor we're not challenging the statements that she had a foot massage, a body massage, and so forth. So there may be some of the details of her memory that are off, but we did not put in to challenge that she had those contacts. That's why we worded the limiting instruction "the physical contact." And to use the word "rape," when she's above the age of consent -- THE COURT: She's saying not raped. It's the opposite of raped. It's not raped. MS. MENNINGER: Well, your Honor -- THE COURT: I'll allow the question as a prior -- I'm overruling the objection because it's an anticipated prior consistent statement in which the credibility of all of the witnesses as to what occurred has been attacked. I don't think this needs to be sealed. MS. POMERANTZ: No. THE COURT: Okay. Not sealed. (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016283 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 68 of 267 2096 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct (In open court) BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Annie, what did you tell your mom? A. I had told my mom that I was not raped and I didn't want to talk about it. Q. When did this conversation happen? A. This was shortly after I returned from the trip from Thailand and Vietnam, so late summer of 1996. Q. If I could just ask you to speak into the microphone. A. Yeah. Sorry. Late summer of 1996. Q. Thank you. Who else, if anyone, did you tell what had happened to you with Maxwell and Epstein? A. Later in that fall, I started dating someone named Dave Mulligan. And I talked to him at some point a little bit about what had happened at the ranch. Q. When did you meet Dave? A. I met him at prom, actually, my junior year; so earlier in the spring of 1996. Q. And when did you start dating him? A. In that fall, I think maybe September/October. Q. And did you tell Dave about what had happened with Maxwell and Epstein? A. I did. Q. Did there come a time when you spoke with members of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013659 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 68 of 267 2096 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct (In open court) BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Annie, what did you tell your mom? A. I had told my mom that I was not raped and I didn't want to talk about it. Q. When did this conversation happen? A. This was shortly after I returned from the trip from Thailand and Vietnam, so late summer of 1996. Q. If I could just ask you to speak into the microphone. A. Yeah. Sorry. Late summer of 1996. Q. Thank you. Who else, if anyone, did you tell what had happened to you with Maxwell and Epstein? A. Later in that fall, I started dating someone named Dave Mulligan. And I talked to him at some point a little bit about what had happened at the ranch. Q. When did you meet Dave? A. I met him at prom, actually, my junior year; so earlier in the spring of 1996. Q. And when did you start dating him? A. In that fall, I think maybe September/October. Q. And did you tell Dave about what had happened with Maxwell and Epstein? A. I did. Q. Did there come a time when you spoke with members of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016284 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 69 of 267 2097 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 media about your experiences with Epstein and Maxwell? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you speak with the media once or more than once? 4 A. More than one time. 5 Q. Approximately when was the first time you spoke with the media? 6 A. In 2002. 7 Q. Did there come a time when you were interviewed by law enforcement agents about your experiences with Maxwell and Epstein? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And approximately when was this? 10 A. In 2006 -- or late 2006/early 2007. 11 Q. During that interview, did you tell the FBI about your experiences with Maxwell and Epstein? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you tell the FBI that Maxwell had given you a massage? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did you tell the FBI that Epstein got into bed with you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You said earlier that you wanted to reclaim the cowboy boots. 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. What do you mean by "reclaim"? 20 A. I think it was just, you know, obviously something I -- it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013660 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 69 of 267 2097 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 media about your experiences with Epstein and Maxwell? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you speak with the media once or more than once? 4 A. More than one time. 5 Q. Approximately when was the first time you spoke with the media? 6 A. In 2002. 7 Q. Did there come a time when you were interviewed by law enforcement agents about your experiences with Maxwell and Epstein? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And approximately when was this? 10 A. In 2006 -- or late 2006/early 2007. 11 Q. During that interview, did you tell the FBI about your experiences with Maxwell and Epstein? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you tell the FBI that Maxwell had given you a massage? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Did you tell the FBI that Epstein got into bed with you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You said earlier that you wanted to reclaim the cowboy boots. 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. What do you mean by "reclaim"? 20 A. I think it was just, you know, obviously something I -- it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016285 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 70 of 267 2098 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 was a dark memory, and I felt so taken advantage of by them both. And I think I was just a little older, and I just saw them as a symbol of, you know, this hard thing that happened to me; but that I could -- you know, by using them, it was some -- by using the boots, I mean, it was somehow like changing that, reclaiming it in some way. 7 Q. In the years after you spoke with FBI in late 2006 or early 2007, have you spoken with the media about your experiences with Maxwell and Epstein? 10 A. I have. 11 Q. Were you interviewed on television? 12 A. I was. 13 Q. Did you participate in other interviews? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Approximately when? 16 A. I believe -- well, I first spoke with another reporter, I think, in maybe 2016 off the record. And then later on the record in the summer of 2019. And I think then in the -- yeah, and then later into the fall. 20 Q. Were you paid for those interviews? 21 A. I was not. 22 Q. Did you struggle with the decision to talk publicly about your experiences with Maxwell and Epstein? 24 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Relevance, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Overruled. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013661 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 70 of 267 2098 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 was a dark memory, and I felt so taken advantage of by them both. And I think I was just a little older, and I just saw them as a symbol of, you know, this hard thing that happened to me; but that I could -- you know, by using them, it was some -- by using the bots, I mean, it was somehow like changing that, reclaiming it in some way. 7 Q. In the years after you spoke with FBI in late 2006 or early 2007, have you spoken with the media about your experiences with Maxwell and Epstein? 10 A. I have. 11 Q. Were you interviewed on television? 12 A. I was. 13 Q. Did you participate in other interviews? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Approximately when? 16 A. I believe -- well, I first spoke with another reporter, I think, in maybe 2016 off the record. And then later on the record in the summer of 2019. And I think then in the -- yeah, and then later into the fall. 20 Q. Were you paid for those interviews? 21 A. I was not. 22 Q. Did you struggle with the decision to talk publicly about your experiences with Maxwell and Epstein? 24 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Relevance, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Overruled. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016286 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 71 of 267 2099 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Can you explain. 3 A. Yeah. I think most people probably can understand that 4 it's not the kind of thing that you would want -- I mean, it 5 sort of feels like a shameful memory and is not the kind of 6 thing you want a lot of attention on. But at a certain point, 7 I felt compelled because I, you know -- 8 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Narrative, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. 10 A. I wanted to -- if I could help there be any accountability 11 or these people being stopped in some way, it felt like it was 12 worth it, even if it was uncomfortable. 13 Q. Did there come a time when you were interviewed by law 14 enforcement in New York? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Approximately when was that? 17 A. That was in 2019, I believe, in the late summer/early fall. 18 Q. Since that time, have you been interviewed by the 19 government? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Approximately how many times have you met with the 22 government? 23 A. I'd say approximately five or six times. 24 Q. Did there come a time when you sued Maxwell and Epstein? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013662 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 71 of 267 2099 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Can you explain. 3 A. Yeah. I think most people probably can understand that 4 it's not the kind of thing that you would want -- I mean, it 5 sort of feels like a shameful memory and is not the kind of 6 thing you want a lot of attention on. But at a certain point, 7 I felt compelled because I, you know -- 8 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Narrative, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. 10 A. I wanted to -- if I could help there be any accountability 11 or these people being stopped in some way, it felt like it was 12 worth it, even if it was uncomfortable. 13 Q. Did there come a time when you were interviewed by law 14 enforcement in New York? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Approximately when was that? 17 A. That was in 2019, I believe, in the late summer/early fall. 18 Q. Since that time, have you been interviewed by the 19 government? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Approximately how many times have you met with the 22 government? 23 A. I'd say approximately five or six times. 24 Q. Did there come a time when you sued Maxwell and Epstein? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016287 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 72 of 267 2100 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 Q. Approximately when did you sue them? 2 A. That was, I believe, the fall of 2019. 3 Q. Was that before or after you had met with law enforcement in New York? 4 A. After. 5 Q. After you filed that lawsuit, did you participate in a victim compensation fund for victims of Jeffrey Epstein? 6 A. I did. 7 Q. Do you remember what year that fund started accepting applications? 8 A. I believe that was in early 2020. 9 Q. What did you do as part of that fund? 10 A. I, with my attorneys, there was an application process. They interviewed me and they put together some materials about, you know, my story. 11 Q. How much money did the fund award you? 12 A. $1.5 million. 13 Q. Did that money come from the Estate of Jeffrey Epstein? 14 A. It came, yeah, from the victims' compensation fund. 15 Q. Did your attorneys receive any portion of that award? 16 A. They did not. 17 Q. Why not? 18 A. They agreed to work with me pro bono. 19 Q. Has that money been wired to you already? 20 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013663 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 72 of 267 2100 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 Q. Approximately when did you sue them? 2 A. That was, I believe, the fall of 2019. 3 Q. Was that before or after you had met with law enforcement in New York? 4 A. After. 5 Q. After you filed that lawsuit, did you participate in a victim compensation fund for victims of Jeffrey Epstein? 6 A. I did. 7 Q. Do you remember what year that fund started accepting applications? 8 A. I believe that was in early 2020. 9 Q. What did you do as part of that fund? 10 A. I, with my attorneys, there was an application process. They interviewed me and they put together some materials about, you know, my story. 11 Q. How much money did the fund award you? 12 A. $1.5 million. 13 Q. Did that money come from the Estate of Jeffrey Epstein? 14 A. It came, yeah, from the victims' compensation fund. 15 Q. Did your attorneys receive any portion of that award? 16 A. They did not. 17 Q. Why not? 18 A. They agreed to work with me pro bono. 19 Q. Has that money been wired to you already? 20 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016288 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 73 of 267 2101 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 Q. And just to back up, when you said "pro bono," what do you mean by that? 2 A. I mean they have not received any of that money. 3 Q. As part of the settlement that you received from the fund, were you required to dismiss your lawsuit against Maxwell and Epstein? 4 A. I was. 5 Q. To be clear, is your civil case over? 6 A. It is. 7 Q. Are you hoping or expecting to get any more money for what happened to you with Maxwell and Epstein? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Based on your understanding, will the jury's verdict in this case affect the award that you received from the fund? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Just to be clear, do you have any financial stake in the outcome of this trial? 12 A. I do not. 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have one moment? 14 THE COURT: You may. 15 (Counsel conferred) 16 MS. POMERANTZ: No further questions. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Menninger. 18 MS. MENNINGER: Would your Honor like to take the morning break now or -- I'm happy to start. 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 20 DOJ-OGR-00013664 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 73 of 267 2101 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - direct 1 Q. And just to back up, when you said "pro bono," what do you mean by that? 2 A. I mean they have not received any of that money. 3 Q. As part of the settlement that you received from the fund, were you required to dismiss your lawsuit against Maxwell and Epstein? 4 A. I was. 5 Q. To be clear, is your civil case over? 6 A. It is. 7 Q. Are you hoping or expecting to get any more money for what happened to you with Maxwell and Epstein? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Based on your understanding, will the jury's verdict in this case affect the award that you received from the fund? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Just to be clear, do you have any financial stake in the outcome of this trial? 12 A. I do not. 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have one moment? 14 THE COURT: You may. 15 (Counsel conferred) 16 MS. POMERANTZ: No further questions. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Menninger. 18 MS. MENNINGER: Would your Honor like to take the morning break now or -- I'm happy to start. 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 20 DOJ-OGR-00016289 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 74 of 267 2102 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - cross 1 THE COURT: I think 15 minutes and then break. 2 MS. MENNINGER: Okay. Sure. 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION 4 BY MS. MENNINGER: 5 Q. Good morning, Ms. Farmer. 6 Sorry. Let me get the microphone. 7 A. Good morning. 8 Q. When you were a junior in high school, you traveled to New York? 9 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. You were 16 years old? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Your older sister lived in New York? 14 A. Yes, she did. 15 (Continued on next page) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013665 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 74 of 267 2102 LCAVMAX2 A. Farmer - cross 1 THE COURT: I think 15 minutes and then break. 2 MS. MENNINGER: Okay. Sure. 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION 4 BY MS. MENNINGER: 5 Q. Good morning, Ms. Farmer. 6 Sorry. Let me get the microphone. 7 A. Good morning. 8 Q. When you were a junior in high school, you traveled to New York? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. You were 16 years old? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Your older sister lived in New York? 13 A. Yes, she did. 14 (Continued on next page) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016290 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 75 of 267 2103 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 BY MS. MENNINGER: 2 Q. She's about 10 years older than you? 3 A. Yeah, nine and a half. 4 Q. She was 25 at the time? 5 A. I believe that's correct. 6 Q. You stayed with her while you were in New York? 7 A. I did. I stayed at her apartment. 8 Q. She lived there? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Your sister is the one who communicated with you about your travel to New York? 11 A. Yes, I believe that is correct. 12 Q. You flew out by yourself? 13 A. I did. 14 Q. That was not abnormal for you to travel out by yourself? 15 A. Well, I would travel sometimes with my younger sister to see my dad or my grandparents, not usually by myself. 16 Q. When you spoke with law enforcement in September of 2019, you told them that you flew alone, which was not abnormal for you; correct? 17 A. I don't recall saying that. But, as I mentioned, I did have to fly to see my dad because he lived across the country. 18 So that's probably what I was referring to. Usually, though, my sister would be with me, my little sister. 19 Q. But what you said was, you flew alone, which was not SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013666 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 75 of 267 2103 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 BY MS. MENNINGER: 2 Q. She's about 10 years older than you? 3 A. Yeah, nine and a half. 4 Q. She was 25 at the time? 5 A. I believe that's correct. 6 Q. You stayed with her while you were in New York? 7 A. I did. I stayed at her apartment. 8 Q. She lived there? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Your sister is the one who communicated with you about your travel to New York? 11 A. Yes, I believe that is correct. 12 Q. You flew out by yourself? 13 A. I did. 14 Q. That was not abnormal for you to travel out by yourself? 15 A. Well, I would travel sometimes with my younger sister to see my dad or my grandparents, not usually by myself. 16 Q. When you spoke with law enforcement in September of 2019, you told them that you flew alone, which was not abnormal for you; correct? 17 A. I don't recall saying that. But, as I mentioned, I did have to fly to see my dad because he lived across the country. 18 So that's probably what I was referring to. Usually, though, my sister would be with me, my little sister. 19 Q. But what you said was, you flew alone, which was not SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016291 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 76 of 267 2104 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 abnormal for you; correct? 2 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. Asked and answered. 3 THE COURT: Sustained. 4 Q. If I could show you what's been marked as 3514-006, page 2 5 in the overflow photograph. 6 MS. MENNINGER: I think we can put that on the screen 7 for counsel and the Court and the witness. The overflow 8 paragraph at the top, if we could call that out. My screen 9 went blank. 10 THE COURT: I hit something. 11 MS. MENNINGER: Happens to all of us. 12 THE COURT: Ms. Williams will make it right. 13 MS. MENNINGER: Okay. Mine is back. 14 THE COURT: She made it better. Go ahead. 15 BY MS. MENNINGER: 16 Q. What you told the government on that occasion is you flew 17 alone which is not abnormal for you; correct? 18 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. Asked and answered. 19 THE COURT: You can ask if it refreshes. 20 Q. Does looking at this report refresh your memory that you 21 told the government, in September much 2019, that you flew 22 alone which was not abnormal for you? 23 A. I see, yeah, that's what they noted. I'm assuming that was 24 based on exactly as I've explained, that I would fly to see my 25 family. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013667 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 76 of 267 2104 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 abnormal for you; correct? 2 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. Asked and answered. 3 THE COURT: Sustained. 4 Q. If I could show you what's been marked as 3514-006, page 2 5 in the overflow photograph. 6 MS. MENNINGER: I think we can put that on the screen 7 for counsel and the Court and the witness. The overflow 8 paragraph at the top, if we could call that out. My screen 9 went blank. 10 THE COURT: I hit something. 11 MS. MENNINGER: Happens to all of us. 12 THE COURT: Ms. Williams will make it right. 13 MS. MENNINGER: Okay. Mine is back. 14 THE COURT: She made it better. Go ahead. 15 BY MS. MENNINGER: 16 Q. What you told the government on that occasion is you flew 17 alone which is not abnormal for you; correct? 18 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. Asked and answered. 19 THE COURT: You can ask if it refreshes. 20 Q. Does looking at this report refresh your memory that you 21 told the government, in September much 2019, that you flew 22 alone which was not abnormal for you? 23 A. I see, yeah, that's what they noted. I'm assuming that was 24 based on exactly as I've explained, that I would fly to see my 25 family. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016292 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 77 of 267 2105 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. You didn't say anything about your little sister? 2 A. I guess not, but at that -- but what would happen. 3 Q. It was your understanding that Mr. Epstein purchased your plane ticket for you to fly to New York? 4 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You understood Mr. Epstein to be Maria's boss; correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. You understood that he had been connecting her to people in the art world; correct? 9 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And she was 25; correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. You understood that he was very wealthy? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. You understood or hoped that he might help get you into college; correct? 16 17 A. And pay for college, yes. 18 Q. And you understood and hoped that he might help you pay for college; correct? 19 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. He did not pay for your college? 22 A. He did not. 23 Q. You were planning to go away for the summer, correct, to an international trip? 24 25 A. I had hopes. I didn't have any plans at that point. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013668 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 77 of 267 2105 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. You didn't say anything about your little sister? 2 A. I guess not, but at that -- but what would happen. 3 Q. It was your understanding that Mr. Epstein purchased your plane ticket for you to fly to New York? 4 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You understood Mr. Epstein to be Maria's boss; correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. You understood that he had been connecting her to people in the art world; correct? 9 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And she was 25; correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. You understood that he was very wealthy? 14 A. That's correct. 15 Q. You understood or hoped that he might help get you into college; correct? 16 17 A. And pay for college, yes. 18 Q. And you understood and hoped that he might help you pay for college; correct? 19 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. He did not pay for your college? 22 A. He did not. 23 Q. You were planning to go away for the summer, correct, to an international trip? 24 25 A. I had hopes. I didn't have any plans at that point. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016293 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 78 of 267 2106 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. And you hoped that he might help pay for that trip; correct? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Ghislaine Maxwell had no role in the logistics of your travel to New York; correct? 4 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. She did not fly you there? 7 A. No. 8 Q. She didn't buy you a ticket to go here? 9 A. She did not. 10 Q. She didn't arrange for your travel? 11 A. No. 12 Q. She didn't call your mother before you traveled to New York? 13 14 A. To New York, no. 15 Q. She didn't encourage you to travel to New York? 16 A. She did not. 17 Q. She did not transport you to New York? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. You had never seen her before you came to New York? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. You had never talked to her before you came to New York? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You didn't even know about her before you came to New York; correct? 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013669 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 78 of 267 2106 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. And you hoped that he might help pay for that trip; correct? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. Ghislaine Maxwell had no role in the logistics of your travel to New York; correct? 4 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. She did not fly you there? 7 A. No. 8 Q. She didn't buy you a ticket to go here? 9 A. She did not. 10 Q. She didn't arrange for your travel? 11 A. No. 12 Q. She didn't call your mother before you traveled to New York? 13 14 A. To New York, no. 15 Q. She didn't encourage you to travel to New York? 16 A. She did not. 17 Q. She did not transport you to New York? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. You had never seen her before you came to New York? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. You had never talked to her before you came to New York? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You didn't even know about her before you came to New York; correct? 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016294 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 79 of 267 2107 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. I'm not -- I don't recall whether I heard -- I think I may have, but I don't remember when I first learned about her. 3 Q. The purpose of your trip was to visit your sister; correct? 4 A. And to meet Epstein, correct. 5 Q. Well, you believed that Mr. Epstein purchased you a ticket for you to come see Maria in New York; right? 6 A. Yes, that was part of the purpose. 8 Q. You testified that you stayed with your sister at her apartment in the Village; right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You did not stay at Mr. Epstein's home? 12 A. No, I did not. 13 Q. You went to see several live performances while you were in town; correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You went to see those with your sister? 17 A. Yes, at least two of them, yeah. 18 Q. Well, you went to see the Blue Man Group tubes; right? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. You went to see The Dutchess, a play; correct? 21 A. Yeah, I think -- Blue Man Group, I don't think Maria was there for that, but yeah. 23 Q. You went to stay in a ski cabin while you were here; correct? 25 A. That's correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013670 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 79 of 267 2107 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. I'm not -- I don't recall whether I heard -- I think I may have, but I don't remember when I first learned about her. 3 Q. The purpose of your trip was to visit your sister; correct? 4 A. And to meet Epstein, correct. 5 Q. Well, you believed that Mr. Epstein purchased you a ticket for you to come see Maria in New York; right? 6 A. Yes, that was part of the purpose. 8 Q. You testified that you stayed with your sister at her apartment in the Village; right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You did not stay at Mr. Epstein's home? 12 A. No, I did not. 13 Q. You went to see several live performances while you were in town; correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You went to see those with your sister? 17 A. Yes, at least two of them, yeah. 18 Q. Well, you went to see the Blue Man Group tubes; right? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. You went to see The Dutchess, a play; correct? 21 A. Yeah, I think -- Blue Man Group, I don't think Maria was there for that, but yeah. 23 Q. You went to stay in a ski cabin while you were here; correct? 25 A. That's correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016295 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 80 of 267 2108 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. You stayed overnight there? 2 A. I think that's correct. 3 Q. With your sister? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And with your sister's boyfriend and his brother were at that cabin; correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. You went shopping with your sister; right? 8 A. I did. 9 Q. You went to flea markets? 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 Q. Thrift stores? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. You went to see some bands with your sister? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You did all of those things on this trip in New York with your sister; right? 16 A. I did. 17 Q. She was with you, I think you said without the exception of perhaps Blue Man Group, she was with you the entire time; right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Now, when you arrived in New York, Ghislaine Maxwell didn't pick you up at the airport? 20 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013671 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 80 of 267 2108 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. You stayed overnight there? 2 A. I think that's correct. 3 Q. With your sister? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And with your sister's boyfriend and his brother were at that cabin; correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. You went shopping with your sister; right? 8 A. I did. 9 Q. You went to flea markets? 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 Q. Thrift stores? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. You went to see some bands with your sister? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You did all of those things on this trip in New York with your sister; right? 16 A. I did. 17 Q. She was with you, I think you said without the exception of perhaps Blue Man Group, she was with you the entire time; right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Now, when you arrived in New York, Ghislaine Maxwell didn't pick you up at the airport? 20 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016296 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 81 of 267 2109 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. She didn't drive you anywhere while you were in New York? 2 A. No, I didn't see her during that trip. 3 Q. She didn't take you to any of these live performances? 4 A. No. 5 Q. She didn't take you to see The Lion King, for example? 6 A. No. 7 Q. She didn't take you shopping or to a ski cabin; right? 8 A. No. 9 Q. She didn't take you to the movies? 10 A. No. 11 Q. She didn't engage you in any conversation about your interests; right? 12 A. No. 13 Q. She didn't offer to pay for your college or a trip in the summer; right? 14 A. She did not. 15 Q. Didn't invite you to her home? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Didn't give you champaign? 18 A. No. 19 Q. She didn't buy you any clothing while you were in New York? 20 A. No. 21 Q. No preppy clothes or underwear; right? 22 A. No. 23 Q. She simply was not here the entire time you were in New York. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013672 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 81 of 267 2109 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. She didn't drive you anywhere while you were in New York? 2 A. No, I didn't see her during that trip. 3 Q. She didn't take you to any of these live performances? 4 A. No. 5 Q. She didn't take you to see The Lion King, for example? 6 A. No. 7 Q. She didn't take you shopping or to a ski cabin; right? 8 A. No. 9 Q. She didn't take you to the movies? 10 A. No. 11 Q. She didn't engage you in any conversation about your interests; right? 12 A. No. 13 Q. She didn't offer to pay for your college or a trip in the summer; right? 14 A. She did not. 15 Q. Didn't invite you to her home? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Didn't give you champaign? 18 A. No. 19 Q. She didn't buy you any clothing while you were in New York? 20 A. No. 21 Q. No preppy clothes or underwear; right? 22 A. No. 23 Q. She simply was not here the entire time you were in New SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016297 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 82 of 267 2110 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 York; right? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. When you went to Epstein's house, you were there the whole time with your sister; correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And it was there that Mr. Epstein spoke with you about college applications? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And discussed the college application process; right? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. He urged you to consider UCLA, I think it was? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. He talked to you about traveling abroad for the summer? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And how that might help your college applications? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You did ultimately go to an ivy league school; right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And he surprised you with tickets to the Phantom of the Opera; right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You said you were really excited about seeing the Phantom of the Opera; right? 20 A. I was. 21 Q. It wasn't the first time you had seen it? 22 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013673 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 82 of 267 2110 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 York; right? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. When you went to Epstein's house, you were there the whole time with your sister; correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And it was there that Mr. Epstein spoke with you about college applications? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And discussed the college application process; right? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. He urged you to consider UCLA, I think it was? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. He talked to you about traveling abroad for the summer? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And how that might help your college applications? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You did ultimately go to an ivy league school; right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And he surprised you with tickets to the Phantom of the Opera; right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You said you were really excited about seeing the Phantom of the Opera; right? 20 A. I was. 21 Q. It wasn't the first time you had seen it? 22 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016298 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 83 of 267 2111 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. No. 2 Q. You had seen it before? 3 A. Yeah, a friend invited me in Phoenix. 4 Q. And it was better this time in New York? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And, again, Ghislaine Maxwell wasn't a part of this conversation at Epstein's home; right? 7 8 A. She was not. 9 Q. He didn't even mention her during this trip to his home; correct? 10 11 A. That, I don't remember. 12 Q. Well, you've spoken to the government a number of times; correct? 13 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You filed a civil lawsuit against Ms. Maxwell; right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You submitted a claim to the Victims Compensation Fund; right? 18 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And on none of those occasions have you said that Mr. Epstein's conversation with you at his home involved Ghislaine Maxwell; right? 21 22 A. It did not center on her. I don't remember if she was mentioned. I was trying to be accurate, yeah. 23 24 Q. And if you didn't remember it, you didn't tell someone 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013674 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 83 of 267 2111 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. No. 2 Q. You had seen it before? 3 A. Yeah, a friend invited me in Phoenix. 4 Q. And it was better this time in New York? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And, again, Ghislaine Maxwell wasn't a part of this conversation at Epstein's home; right? 7 8 A. She was not. 9 Q. He didn't even mention her during this trip to his home; correct? 10 11 A. That, I don't remember. 12 Q. Well, you've spoken to the government a number of times; correct? 13 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You filed a civil lawsuit against Ms. Maxwell; right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You submitted a claim to the Victims Compensation Fund; right? 18 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And on none of those occasions have you said that Mr. Epstein's conversation with you at his home involved Ghislaine Maxwell; right? 21 22 A. It did not center on her. I don't remember if she was mentioned. I was trying to be accurate, yeah. 23 24 Q. And if you didn't remember it, you didn't tell someone else about it; right? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016299 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 84 of 267 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 about it; right? 2 A. I did not, right. 3 Q. You said, I believe, that you had visited with Mr. Epstein 4 in the office of his home; correct? 5 A. I remember there being a desk there. That's why I was 6 assuming it was an office, but -- 7 MS. MENNINGER: Just one moment. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 Q. You were sitting at a desk; right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You don't know whether his home was under renovation at the 12 time you were there; correct? 13 A. I believe it was. 14 Q. And you believe this was at the beginning of 1996; correct? 15 A. As I said, late 1995, early 1996. 16 Q. Well, your journal entry is dated January 7th; right? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. And you had just gotten back that day; right? 19 A. I don't know if it says that day. I know I recently 20 returned. 21 Q. And you thought you were there about a week; right? 22 A. I know I left after Christmas. So in that time. 23 MS. MENNINGER: If we could -- 24 THE COURT: We're at about a quarter after, 25 Ms. Menninger. Should we break here? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013675 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 84 of 267 2112 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 about it; right? 2 A. I did not, right. 3 Q. You said, I believe, that you had visited with Mr. Epstein in the office of his home; correct? 4 5 A. I remember there being a desk there. That's why I was 6 assuming it was an office, but -- 7 MS. MENNINGER: Just one moment. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 Q. You were sitting at a desk; right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You don't know whether his home was under renovation at the time you were there; correct? 12 13 A. I believe it was. 14 Q. And you believe this was at the beginning of 1996; correct? 15 A. As I said, late 1995, early 1996. 16 Q. Well, your journal entry is dated January 7th; right? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. And you had just gotten back that day; right? 19 A. I don't know if it says that day. I know I recently returned. 20 21 Q. And you thought you were there about a week; right? 22 A. I know I left after Christmas. So in that time. 23 MS. MENNINGER: If we could -- 24 THE COURT: We're at about a quarter after, 25 Ms. Menninger. Should we break here? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 85 of 267 2113 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 MS. MENNINGER: Sure. 2 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take our 3 morning break. See you in about 15 minutes. 4 (Continued on next page) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013676 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 85 of 267 2113 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 MS. MENNINGER: Sure. 2 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take our 3 morning break. See you in about 15 minutes. 4 (Continued on next page) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016301 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 86 of 267 2114 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: The witness can step down while we break. 3 (Witness not present) 4 Counsel, are there matters to take up before we break? 5 MS. POMERANTZ: Not from the government, your Honor. 6 MS. MENNINGER: Not from me, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: See you in about ten minutes. Let me know 8 if there is anything you need. Thank you. 9 (Recess) 10 Matters to take up? 11 MS. MENNINGER: No, your Honor. 12 MS. POMERANTZ: Not from the government. Thank you, 13 your Honor. 14 THE COURT: We'll bring back the witness and bring in 15 the jury. 16 (Witness present) 17 You can take your seat, Ms. Farmer. Thank you. You 18 may remove your mask. 19 (Continued on next page) 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013677 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 86 of 267 2114 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: The witness can step down while we break. 3 (Witness not present) 4 Counsel, are there matters to take up before we break? 5 MS. POMERANTZ: Not from the government, your Honor. 6 MS. MENNINGER: Not from me, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: See you in about ten minutes. Let me know 8 if there is anything you need. Thank you. 9 (Recess) 10 Matters to take up? 11 MS. MENNINGER: No, your Honor. 12 MS. POMERANTZ: Not from the government. Thank you, 13 your Honor. 14 THE COURT: We'll bring back the witness and bring in 15 the jury. 16 (Witness present) 17 You can take your seat, Ms. Farmer. Thank you. You 18 may remove your mask. 19 (Continued on next page) 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016302 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 87 of 267 2115 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross (Jury present) Thank you so much, members of the jury. Ms. Menninger, you may continue with your cross examination. MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor. BY MS. MENNINGER: Q. I think when we left off, I was asking you about the dates of your trip. MS. MENNINGER: If I could pull up Government Exhibit 603. As this is in evidence, your Honor, if I could also publish it to the jury. THE COURT: You may. Q. So this is your journal; right? A. It is, yes. I see what you're referring to. Q. In your journal, you gave a date of January 7th, 1996; correct? A. Yes. Q. And what you wrote is, I got back from my trip to New York today? A. Yes, I was right on top of that journal entry, yes. Q. So it's now your memory that you got back on January 7th; right? A. Correct. Q. And you had been there for about a week; correct? A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013678 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 87 of 267 2115 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 (Jury present) 2 Thank you so much, members of the jury. 3 Ms. Menninger, you may continue with your cross examination. 4 5 MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor. 6 BY MS. MENNINGER: 7 Q. I think when we left off, I was asking you about the dates of your trip. 8 9 MS. MENNINGER: If I could pull up Government Exhibit 603. As this is in evidence, your Honor, if I could also publish it to the jury. 10 11 THE COURT: You may. 12 13 Q. So this is your journal; right? 14 A. It is, yes. I see what you're referring to. 15 Q. In your journal, you gave a date of January 7th, 1996; correct? 16 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And what you wrote is, I got back from my trip to New York today? 19 20 A. Yes, I was right on top of that journal entry, yes. 21 Q. So it's now your memory that you got back on January 7th; right? 22 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. And you had been there for about a week; correct? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016303 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 88 of 267 2116 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. And you had been there for a New Year's eve party, I think you said? 2 A. Yes. So it may be that the trip was a little longer than a week, because I'm seeing that date, yeah. 3 Q. You know it was after Christmas of '95; right? 4 A. Yeah. 5 MS. MENNINGER: We can take that down now, thank you. 6 Q. Back in your time at Mr. Epstein's home, you believe it was under renovation while you were there; correct? 7 A. It may have been. I don't know. I have heard, but I don't remember from that time. I don't have a memory of it being under renovation, but I have heard that that's possible. 8 Q. And I won't ask you where you heard that. I'm not asking you where you heard that. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. You do know that there was no sexual activity that occurred while you were in Mr. Epstein's home; correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. No one physically touched you there? 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. Just to clarify which home we're talking about. 14 MS. MENNINGER: The New York home. Sorry. I thought that was the general topic here. 15 Q. I'm talking about your time in the New York home that was possibly under renovation in early of 1996; right? 16 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013679 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 88 of 267 2116 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. And you had been there for a New Year's eve party, I think you said? 2 A. Yes. So it may be that the trip was a little longer than a week, because I'm seeing that date, yeah. 3 Q. You know it was after Christmas of '95; right? 4 A. Yeah. 5 MS. MENNINGER: We can take that down now, thank you. 6 Q. Back in your time at Mr. Epstein's home, you believe it was under renovation while you were there; correct? 7 A. It may have been. I don't know. I have heard, but I don't remember from that time. I don't have a memory of it being under renovation, but I have heard that that's possible. 8 Q. And I won't ask you where you heard that. I'm not asking you where you heard that. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. You do know that there was no sexual activity that occurred while you were in Mr. Epstein's home; correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. No one physically touched you there? 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. Just to clarify which home we're talking about. 14 MS. MENNINGER: The New York home. Sorry. I thought that was the general topic here. 15 Q. I'm talking about your time in the New York home that was possibly under renovation in early of 1996; right? 16 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016304 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 89 of 267 2117 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Sorry. What was the question about that? 2 Q. I'm just orienting you to make sure you and I are talking about the same thing. 3 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And I understand us to be talking about a time in early January 1996 when you were in Mr. Epstein's -- 6 7 A. We're on the same page, yes. 8 Q. -- New York home; right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. No physical contact happened with you in that home? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. No one showed you any vibrators or massagers or anything like that in that home? 13 14 A. No. 15 Q. And regardless, Ghislaine Maxwell was not present in Mr. Epstein's home while you were there; right? 16 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. You just talked about later going to the movie theater with Epstein and your sister during the same trip in New York in early 1996? 19 20 A. Yes. 21 22 Q. And Ghislaine Maxwell was not at the movie theater; right? 23 A. That's right. 24 Q. And you talked about how he held your hand and rubbed your arm during that time in the movie theater; right? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013680 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 89 of 267 2117 LCACmax3 1 A. Sorry. What was the question about that? 2 Q. I'm just orienting you to make sure you and I are talking about the same thing. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And I understand us to be talking about a time in early January 1996 when you were in Mr. Epstein's -- 6 A. We're on the same page, yes. 7 Q. -- New York home; right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. No physical contact happened with you in that home? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. No one showed you any vibrators or massagers or anything like that in that home? 12 A. No. 13 Q. And regardless, Ghislaine Maxwell was not present in Mr. Epstein's home while you were there; right? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. You just talked about later going to the movie theater with Epstein and your sister during the same trip in New York in early 1996? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And Ghislaine Maxwell was not at the movie theater; right? 18 A. That's right. 19 Q. And you talked about how he held your hand and rubbed your arm during that time in the movie theater; right? 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016305 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 90 of 267 2118 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. You told this to the FBI when you first met with them in 3 relation to this case, in September of 2019; correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And before you met with the FBI in September of 2019 and 6 talked about the movie theater incident, you actually refreshed 7 your memory by looking at your journal; right? 8 A. I had seen my journal, yes. 9 Q. And you told them that you knew about this experience in 10 the movie theater because you had looked at your journal and 11 refreshed your memory; correct? 12 A. I knew about the experience apart from that, but I had 13 looked in my journal, yes. 14 Q. What you told the prosecutors and the FBI in 2019, after 15 telling them about the movie theater incident, is that you 16 recalled your memory was refreshed of the incident by looking 17 at your journal; right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You had looked at the journal before you had the meeting 20 with them in September of 2019? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you also refreshed your memory about the age you were 23 when you took the trip by looking at your journal in 2019? 24 A. The age when I took the trip to New Mexico -- 25 Q. New York. New York. I'm sorry. I'm just talking about SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013681 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 90 of 267 2118 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. You told this to the FBI when you first met with them in 3 relation to this case, in September of 2019; correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And before you met with the FBI in September of 2019 and 6 talked about the movie theater incident, you actually refreshed 7 your memory by looking at your journal; right? 8 A. I had seen my journal, yes. 9 Q. And you told them that you knew about this experience in 10 the movie theater because you had looked at your journal and 11 refreshed your memory; correct? 12 A. I knew about the experience apart from that, but I had 13 looked in my journal, yes. 14 Q. What you told the prosecutors and the FBI in 2019, after 15 telling them about the movie theater incident, is that you 16 recalled your memory was refreshed of the incident by looking 17 at your journal; right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You had looked at the journal before you had the meeting 20 with them in September of 2019? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you also refreshed your memory about the age you were 23 when you took the trip by looking at your journal in 2019? 24 A. The age when I took the trip to New Mexico -- 25 Q. New York. New York. I'm sorry. I'm just talking about SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016306 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 91 of 267 2119 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 New York. I apologize if it wasn't clear. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. You refreshed your memory about the age you were when you 4 took the trip to New York by looking at your journal? 5 A. I don't remember saying that, but that's possible, yes. I 6 mean, I knew it was in my junior year, so I don't think it 7 would have been that hard for me to determine my age, but -- 8 MS. MENNINGER: If I could have the witness and 9 counsel look at 3514-006, page 1, third full paragraph about 10 five lines down. 11 Q. If you could just read that bottom half of that paragraph 12 to yourself and tell me if that refreshes your memory about 13 what you told the government in 2019. 14 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: She can look at it. 16 A. I'm sorry. Just read it but to myself, is that what you 17 said? 18 Q. Yes. And do you now recall that, in September of 2019, you 19 had looked at your journal and refreshed your memory about the 20 age you were when you took the trip before you met with the 21 government then? 22 A. I think it -- the sentence is a summary. I don't know if 23 that's what it -- that's not my interpretation of it. I see 24 that they wrote a note about that. I think I knew I was 16, 25 but I do know that I refreshed my memory about the experience SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013682 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 91 of 267 2119 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 New York. I apologize if it wasn't clear. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. You refreshed your memory about the age you were when you 4 took the trip to New York by looking at your journal? 5 A. I don't remember saying that, but that's possible, yes. I 6 mean, I knew it was in my junior year, so I don't think it 7 would have been that hard for me to determine my age, but -- 8 MS. MENNINGER: If I could have the witness and 9 counsel look at 3514-006, page 1, third full paragraph about 10 five lines down. 11 Q. If you could just read that bottom half of that paragraph 12 to yourself and tell me if that refreshes your memory about 13 what you told the government in 2019. 14 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: She can look at it. 16 A. I'm sorry. Just read it but to myself, is that what you 17 said? 18 Q. Yes. And do you now recall that, in September of 2019, you 19 had looked at your journal and refreshed your memory about the 20 age you were when you took the trip before you met with the 21 government then? 22 A. I think it -- the sentence is a summary. I don't know if 23 that's what it -- that's not my interpretation of it. I see 24 that they wrote a note about that. I think I knew I was 16, 25 but I do know that I refreshed my memory about the experience SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 92 of 267 2120 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 by reading the journal. 2 MS. MENNINGER: Okay, clear. So we can take that down. 3 4 Q. So we know that you refreshed your memory with the journal before you met with the government in September of 2019? 5 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And we do that sometimes in this courtroom, too. I ask you to take a look at a document to refresh your memory because it helps people remember things that they wrote down a long time ago? 8 9 10 A. Of course. 11 12 Q. And that's kind of what you had done before you met with the government in September of 2019; right? 13 14 A. I had had that journal with me, and so I had looked at it over the years, yes. 15 16 Q. And it helped you remember things from a long time ago? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Because you had written it down at the time; right? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. The government introduced some pages from that journal - I think it was 603 and 604, if memory serves - and they asked you a little bit about the journal on direct. I want to ask you a few more questions about the journal. 21 22 23 24 A. Oh, sure. 25 Q. The cover of the journal - SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013683 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 92 of 267 2120 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 by reading the journal. 2 MS. MENNINGER: Okay, clear. So we can take that down. 3 Q. So we know that you refreshed your memory with the journal before you met with the government in September of 2019? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And we do that sometimes in this courtroom, too. I ask you to take a look at a document to refresh your memory because it helps people remember things that they wrote down a long time ago? 6 A. Of course. 7 Q. And that's kind of what you had done before you met with the government in September of 2019; right? 8 A. I had had that journal with me, and so I had looked at it over the years, yes. 9 Q. And it helped you remember things from a long time ago? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Because you had written it down at the time; right? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. The government introduced some pages from that journal - I think it was 603 and 604, if memory serves - and they asked you a little bit about the journal on direct. I want to ask you a few more questions about the journal. 14 A. Oh, sure. 15 Q. The cover of the journal - SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016308 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 93 of 267 2121 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 MS. MENNINGER: Is that 603? Sorry. 601. If we 2 could show that to counsel and the witness. 3 Q. This is the cover of one of your journals from high school; 4 correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. It's the one that contains the pages that we've been 7 looking at; right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Now, you had several journals during high school; right? 10 A. Yes, I did have other journals in high school. 11 Q. You kept a journal throughout high school? 12 A. I know, like, I journaled when I went to Thailand in a 13 separate journal on that trip. And I've had journals starting 14 in elementary school, off and on, but again, I'm not very 15 consistent, so I don't know that I journaled throughout high 16 school. I think there were chunks of time that I would do it 17 and then I would put it aside for a while. 18 Q. And when you spoke to the government in September of 2019, 19 you said throughout high school, you maintained a journal; 20 right? 21 A. Yeah. I'm trying to elaborate on that, yeah. 22 Q. So you had this journal from around the time you went to 23 New York? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. And then you had another journal from the time you went to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013684 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 93 of 267 2121 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 MS. MENNINGER: Is that 603? Sorry. 601. If we 2 could show that to counsel and the witness. 3 Q. This is the cover of one of your journals from high school; 4 correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. It's the one that contains the pages that we've been 7 looking at; right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Now, you had several journals during high school; right? 10 A. Yes, I did have other journals in high school. 11 Q. You kept a journal throughout high school? 12 A. I know, like, I journaled when I went to Thailand in a 13 separate journal on that trip. And I've had journals starting 14 in elementary school, off and on, but again, I'm not very 15 consistent, so I don't know that I journaled throughout high 16 school. I think there were chunks of time that I would do it 17 and then I would put it aside for a while. 18 Q. And when you spoke to the government in September of 2019, 19 you said throughout high school, you maintained a journal; 20 right? 21 A. Yeah. I'm trying to elaborate on that, yeah. 22 Q. So you had this journal from around the time you went to 23 New York? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. And then you had another journal from the time you went to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016309 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 94 of 267 2122 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 Thailand in the summer? 2 A. Yeah. That was only about that trip. Yes. 3 Q. And then you had other journals thereafter; right? 4 A. I don't recall if I journaled again in my senior year, but 5 I know I journaled again in college and other times. 6 Q. And this particular journal that we've been looking at and 7 the government had you read from, you actually read from it 8 during some of your media appearances; right? 9 A. I did. 10 Q. On a documentary or a 2020 special or something; right? 11 A. I did. 12 MS. MENNINGER: And if I could ask to turn to page 2 13 of 603, I believe it is. I'm sorry. It's not. 14 Let me back up. I would like to introduce Defendant's 15 Exhibit AF1, which I think there was a page omitted from the 16 government's exhibit. If I could confer with counsel. 17 THE COURT: You want to indicate the identification 18 mark and then pull it up for me, please. 19 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. And I apologize, 20 your Honor, if I may approach, I do have a paper binder I could 21 give to the Court and the witness because it's multiple pages. 22 There is just a different page than the government's exhibit. 23 THE COURT: Okay. When you get back, the tab number 24 and then, again, just the mark for identification. 25 MS. MENNINGER: AF1, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013685 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 94 of 267 2122 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 Thailand in the summer? 2 A. Yeah. That was only about that trip. Yes. 3 Q. And then you had other journals thereafter; right? 4 A. I don't recall if I journaled again in my senior year, but 5 I know I journaled again in college and other times. 6 Q. And this particular journal that we've been looking at and 7 the government had you read from, you actually read from it 8 during some of your media appearances; right? 9 A. I did. 10 Q. On a documentary or a 2020 special or something; right? 11 A. I did. 12 MS. MENNINGER: And if I could ask to turn to page 2 13 of 603, I believe it is. I'm sorry. It's not. 14 Let me back up. I would like to introduce Defendant's 15 Exhibit AF1, which I think there was a page omitted from the 16 government's exhibit. If I could confer with counsel. 17 THE COURT: You want to indicate the identification 18 mark and then pull it up for me, please. 19 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. And I apologize, 20 your Honor, if I may approach, I do have a paper binder I could 21 give to the Court and the witness because it's multiple pages. 22 There is just a different page than the government's exhibit. 23 THE COURT: Okay. When you get back, the tab number 24 and then, again, just the mark for identification. 25 MS. MENNINGER: AF1, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016310 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 95 of 267 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 THE COURT: And that's behind tab 1? 2 MS. MENNINGER: I think we have the 3500 material 3 first, your Honor. So it's about halfway through the binder is 4 when the AF exhibits start. 5 THE COURT: I see. Thank you. 6 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I've marked for 7 identification AF1. What I would like to do is to draw the 8 witness's attention -- 9 THE COURT: You want to direct the witness to a page? 10 MS. MENNINGER: Page 2, exactly, of that entry. 11 THE COURT: Of AF1? 12 MS. MENNINGER: Yes. 13 BY MS. MENNINGER: 14 Q. Do you see that entry? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you recognize this was another entry in the same 17 journal? 18 A. Yes. 19 MS. MENNINGER: And I don't believe it was in the 20 government's exhibit, and that's why I'm asking to introduce 21 this page, and I can work out with the government later if 22 there is any redactions. I don't think any are appropriate, 23 but -- 24 MS. POMERANTZ: No objection, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: AF1 is admitted temporarily under seal so SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013686 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 95 of 267 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 THE COURT: And that's behind tab 1? 2 MS. MENNINGER: I think we have the 3500 material 3 first, your Honor. So it's about halfway through the binder is 4 when the AF exhibits start. 5 THE COURT: I see. Thank you. 6 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I've marked for 7 identification AF1. What I would like to do is to draw the 8 witness's attention -- 9 THE COURT: You want to direct the witness to a page? 10 MS. MENNINGER: Page 2, exactly, of that entry. 11 THE COURT: Of AF1? 12 MS. MENNINGER: Yes. 13 BY MS. MENNINGER: 14 Q. Do you see that entry? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you recognize this was another entry in the same 17 journal? 18 A. Yes. 19 MS. MENNINGER: And I don't believe it was in the 20 government's exhibit, and that's why I'm asking to introduce 21 this page, and I can work out with the government later if 22 there is any redactions. I don't think any are appropriate, 23 but -- 24 MS. POMERANTZ: No objection, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: AF1 is admitted temporarily under seal so SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016311 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 96 of 267 2124 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross the government can propose any redactions. (Defendant's Exhibit AF1 received in evidence) BY MS. MENNINGER: Q. Thank you. This page 2 is actually is an entry that you made before you went to New York; right? A. Right. Q. And it doesn't have a date on it? A. Right. Q. But you're describing your excitement at going to see your sister in New York; right? A. Yeah. Q. And you're describing your excitement about meeting Epstein; correct? A. Right. Maria, I'm excited about getting this ticket that he bought me, yeah. Q. And you refer to him -- MS. MENNINGER: Could we publish to the jury that page. Is that a problem? MS. POMERANTZ: No, not at all. MS. MENNINGER: If we could publish to the jury that page, your Honor? THE COURT: Do you have it on paper? MS. MENNINGER: I don't think that the government thinks that there is any proposed redactions to this page. THE COURT: Let's just give them a minute. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013687 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 96 of 267 2124 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross the government can propose any redactions. (Defendant's Exhibit AF1 received in evidence) BY MS. MENNINGER: Q. Thank you. This page 2 is actually is an entry that you made before you went to New York; right? A. Right. Q. And it doesn't have a date on it? A. Right. Q. But you're describing your excitement at going to see your sister in New York; right? A. Yeah. Q. And you're describing your excitement about meeting Epstein; correct? A. Right. Maria, I'm excited about getting this ticket that he bought me, yeah. Q. And you refer to him -- MS. MENNINGER: Could we publish to the jury that page. Is that a problem? MS. POMERANTZ: No, not at all. MS. MENNINGER: If we could publish to the jury that page, your Honor? THE COURT: Do you have it on paper? MS. MENNINGER: I don't think that the government thinks that there is any proposed redactions to this page. THE COURT: Let's just give them a minute. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016312 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 97 of 267 2125 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 MS. MENNINGER: Of course. 2 THE COURT: And if not, we can unseal it. 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, as long as we're referring 4 to just page 2, then the government does not believe any 5 redactions are necessary. So it can be published. 6 THE COURT: Why don't we do that. Why don't we make 7 page 2 AF1. 8 MS. MENNINGER: That's fine. 9 THE COURT: Page 2 of what I'm looking at will be now 10 marked as AF1 and, without objection, I'll admit AF1, which is 11 only page 2. 12 Let me just give the Bates that's at the bottom. You 13 want to just give that -- 14 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. It's Bates labeled 15 AFarmer10472. 16 THE COURT: That is the single page that I'm admitting 17 as AF1. And no objection to it being published? 18 MS. POMERANTZ: No objection, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: You may publish. 20 MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor. 21 BY MS. MENNINGER: 22 Q. So this is, I think as we just said, an entry that you made 23 in the same journal before you went to New York? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. So it's your handwriting, et cetera? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013688 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 97 of 267 2125 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 MS. MENNINGER: Of course. 2 THE COURT: And if not, we can unseal it. 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, as long as we're referring 4 to just page 2, then the government does not believe any 5 redactions are necessary. So it can be published. 6 THE COURT: Why don't we do that. Why don't we make 7 page 2 AF1. 8 MS. MENNINGER: That's fine. 9 THE COURT: Page 2 of what I'm looking at will be now 10 marked as AF1 and, without objection, I'll admit AF1, which is 11 only page 2. 12 Let me just give the Bates that's at the bottom. You 13 want to just give that -- 14 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. It's Bates labeled 15 AFarmer10472. 16 THE COURT: That is the single page that I'm admitting 17 as AF1. And no objection to it being published? 18 MS. POMERANTZ: No objection, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: You may publish. 20 MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor. 21 BY MS. MENNINGER: 22 Q. So this is, I think as we just said, an entry that you made 23 in the same journal before you went to New York? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. So it's your handwriting, et cetera? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016313 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 98 of 267 2126 LCACmax3 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. You referred to Epstein as Maria's boss; right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. You didn't use his name at that point in time? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. And you described that you were hoping that he might help pay for your college; right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And you were hoping that he might help you get into college; right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you didn't want to get your hopes up because you might be disappointed? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And that's sort of what you had written down before you went to New York? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Nothing in there about Ghislaine Maxwell? 15 A. Correct. 16 MS. MENNINGER: And now we'll use the Government Exhibit 603, which picks up, I believe, on the next entry that we have. 17 THE COURT: And that's a public exhibit? 18 MS. MENNINGER: Right. 19 MS. POMERANTZ: That's correct, your Honor. 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013689 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 98 of 267 2126 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. You referred to Epstein as Maria's boss; right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. You didn't use his name at that point in time? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. And you described that you were hoping that he might help pay for your college; right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And you were hoping that he might help you get into college; right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you didn't want to get your hopes up because you might be disappointed? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And that's sort of what you had written down before you went to New York? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Nothing in there about Ghislaine Maxwell? 15 A. Correct. 16 MS. MENNINGER: And now we'll use the Government Exhibit 603, which picks up, I believe, on the next entry that we have. 17 THE COURT: And that's a public exhibit? 18 MS. MENNINGER: Right. 19 MS. POMERANTZ: That's correct, your Honor. 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016314 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 99 of 267 2127 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 BY MS. MENNINGER: 2 Q. And I think we looked at this just a moment ago? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And you can look at it on your screen now. 5 A. It's a little easier to read. 6 Q. You can put that down. Thank you. 7 8 And as we discussed, this is the first entry that you made when you got back from New York; right? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. And this is the entry in which you talked about going to Phantom of the Opera? 11 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And going to Mr. Epstein's home; right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You called the Phantom of the Opera the best night of your trip; correct? 16 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You talked about meeting Maria's boyfriend and so forth in this same entry; correct? 19 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You talked about going cross country skiing at some point during the trip? 22 23 A. Yes. 24 MS. MENNINGER: On the next page, if we could. 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, can we take this down for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013690 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 99 of 267 2127 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 BY MS. MENNINGER: 2 Q. And I think we looked at this just a moment ago? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And you can look at it on your screen now. 5 A. It's a little easier to read. 6 Q. You can put that down. Thank you. 7 8 And as we discussed, this is the first entry that you made when you got back from New York; right? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. And this is the entry in which you talked about going to Phantom of the Opera? 11 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And going to Mr. Epstein's home; right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You called the Phantom of the Opera the best night of your trip; correct? 16 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You talked about meeting Maria's boyfriend and so forth in this same entry; correct? 19 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You talked about going cross country skiing at some point during the trip? 22 23 A. Yes. 24 MS. MENNINGER: On the next page, if we could. 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, can we take this down for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016315 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 100 of 267 2128 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross just a moment, please. If I can just have a moment to confer with defense counsel? THE COURT: Yes. (Pause) MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, there is a bit of a disagreement about the redactions, but I don't want to hold up the presentation for the jury. So we can take that up later. THE COURT: Sure. MS. MENNINGER: But I do want to ask the witness a couple of questions. So if I could direct her attention to what we have marked as AF1, and it's going to be page 4 of that exhibit. THE COURT: We have a terminological issue, because that was originally AF1, but we just admitted the one page as AF1. How about this, we'll go back, I'll admit under seal, again, temporarily, AF1 as a seven-page document. MS. MENNINGER: Thank you. THE COURT: Recognizing there is overlap between some of the pages of the AF1 and Government Exhibit 603. MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor. We can work that out. THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz. MS. POMERANTZ: That's fine, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013691 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 100 of 267 2128 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross just a moment, please. If I can just have a moment to confer with defense counsel? THE COURT: Yes. (Pause) MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, there is a bit of a disagreement about the redactions, but I don't want to hold up the presentation for the jury. So we can take that up later. THE COURT: Sure. MS. MENNINGER: But I do want to ask the witness a couple of questions. So if I could direct her attention to what we have marked as AF1, and it's going to be page 4 of that exhibit. THE COURT: We have a terminological issue, because that was originally AF1, but we just admitted the one page as AF1. How about this, we'll go back, I'll admit under seal, again, temporarily, AF1 as a seven-page document. MS. MENNINGER: Thank you. THE COURT: Recognizing there is overlap between some of the pages of the AF1 and Government Exhibit 603. MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor. We can work that out. THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz. MS. POMERANTZ: That's fine, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016316 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 101 of 267 2129 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 THE COURT: Let me just talk to the record for a moment. 2 I retract that I'm only admitting the single page of 3 AF1 as AF1. Instead, I am temporarily admitting under seal a 4 seven-page document marked as AF1. Counsel will work out 5 limited redactions We'll turn that into a public document 6 with limited redactions. 7 8 Go ahead. 9 MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor. 10 BY MS. MENNINGER: 11 Q. So I just wanted to ask you, in this journal entry, you 12 wrote about going to a ski cabin and going cross country 13 skiing; right? 14 A. Yeah. I'm sorry. I think I got lost. Are we back in the 15 binder now? 16 Q. You can testify from memory right now. If you need to look 17 at it, we can show it to you again. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. But you, I believe, would recall that you wrote about going 20 to a cross country skiing cabin? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you also wrote about going to see a movie or watching a 23 movie while you were in that cabin, and the name of the movie 24 was Sleuth? 25 A. Okay. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013692 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 101 of 267 2129 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 THE COURT: Let me just talk to the record for a moment. 2 I retract that I'm only admitting the single page of 3 AF1 as AF1. Instead, I am temporarily admitting under seal a 4 seven-page document marked as AF1. Counsel will work out 5 limited redactions We'll turn that into a public document 6 with limited redactions. 7 8 Go ahead. 9 MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor. 10 BY MS. MENNINGER: 11 Q. So I just wanted to ask you, in this journal entry, you 12 wrote about going to a ski cabin and going cross country 13 skiing; right? 14 A. Yeah. I'm sorry. I think I got lost. Are we back in the 15 binder now? 16 Q. You can testify from memory right now. If you need to look 17 at it, we can show it to you again. 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. But you, I believe, would recall that you wrote about going 20 to a cross country skiing cabin? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you also wrote about going to see a movie or watching a 23 movie while you were in that cabin, and the name of the movie 24 was Sleuth? 25 A. Okay. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016317 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 102 of 267 2130 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. And you talked about going to see bands and going to a bar and other things that you did during your trip? 2 A. Okay. Yes. 3 Q. Is that right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You recall that's in your journal entry? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You've reviewed that journal entry a few times; right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And significantly, in this journal entry, you really talked about your emotions that you were feeling after you returned from your trip to New York; right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You talked about how you had such a great time, it was really depressing to be home; right? 12 A. I did. 13 Q. The trip changed your whole outlook on life; right? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. You say you always feel that way when I get back from trips; right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You had been on other trips? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. I think you mentioned that you felt similarly when you got back from Mexico? 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013693 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 102 of 267 2130 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. And you talked about going to see bands and going to a bar and other things that you did during your trip? 2 A. Okay. Yes. 3 Q. Is that right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You recall that's in your journal entry? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You've reviewed that journal entry a few times; right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And significantly, in this journal entry, you really talked about your emotions that you were feeling after you returned from your trip to New York; right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You talked about how you had such a great time, it was really depressing to be home; right? 12 A. I did. 13 Q. The trip changed your whole outlook on life; right? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. You say you always feel that way when I get back from trips; right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You had been on other trips? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. I think you mentioned that you felt similarly when you got back from Mexico? 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016318 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 103 of 267 2131 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. You've been to Mexico? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. It was really overwhelming this time because you felt more independent and things along those lines; right? 5 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. You also talked about how you felt really comfortable here 8 in New York? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you felt like you belonged here? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You hoped to live here some day? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And this was after your entire trip was over; right? 15 A. That's right. 16 Q. You wrote this after you got back home; right? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. After the movie theater incident? 19 A. That's right. 20 Q. You also had your impressions of Epstein recorded in this journal entry; right? 21 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. You found him down to earth and easy to talk to; right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. In this journal entry, after you got back from New York, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013694 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 103 of 267 2131 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. You've been to Mexico? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. It was really overwhelming this time because you felt more independent and things along those lines; right? 5 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. You also talked about how you felt really comfortable here 8 in New York? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you felt like you belonged here? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You hoped to live here some day? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And this was after your entire trip was over; right? 15 A. That's right. 16 Q. You wrote this after you got back home; right? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. After the movie theater incident? 19 A. That's right. 20 Q. You also had your impressions of Epstein recorded in this journal entry; right? 21 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. You found him down to earth and easy to talk to; right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. In this journal entry, after you got back from New York, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016319 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 104 of 267 2132 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 again, there is no mention of Ghislaine Maxwell; correct? 2 A. That's right. 3 Q. And this, what we've been looking at, is only a portion of 4 your January 7th journal entry; right? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. But you have no reason to believe Ghislaine Maxwell is 7 mentioned in the rest of the entry that we don't have? 8 A. No. 9 Q. I want to talk about the next journal entry, which I 10 believe is Government Exhibit 604. 11 MS. MENNINGER: And we may have the same issue, but 12 I'll try to be sensitive to it, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 14 Q. This one is dated January 25th of 1996; right? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. And that's about three weeks after the last one; right? 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. And were there any entries between January 6th and January 19 25th? 20 A. I don't believe so. 21 Q. And when you wrote this entry a few weeks later, you wanted 22 to go back and fill in some details that you hadn't mentioned 23 the first time; right? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. And that's when you wrote about go going to see a play SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013695 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 104 of 267 2132 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 again, there is no mention of Ghislaine Maxwell; correct? 2 A. That's right. 3 Q. And this, what we've been looking at, is only a portion of 4 your January 7th journal entry; right? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. But you have no reason to believe Ghislaine Maxwell is 7 mentioned in the rest of the entry that we don't have? 8 A. No. 9 Q. I want to talk about the next journal entry, which I 10 believe is Government Exhibit 604. 11 MS. MENNINGER: And we may have the same issue, but 12 I'll try to be sensitive to it, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 14 Q. This one is dated January 25th of 1996; right? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. And that's about three weeks after the last one; right? 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. And were there any entries between January 6th and January 19 25th? 20 A. I don't believe so. 21 Q. And when you wrote this entry a few weeks later, you wanted 22 to go back and fill in some details that you hadn't mentioned 23 the first time; right? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. And that's when you wrote about go going to see a play SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016320 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 105 of 267 2133 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 called the Dutchess? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. The Blue Man Group and the flea market and that kind of thing? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You went to the Met; right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And a pretty fun New Year's Eve party and the thrift stores? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And it was after your discussion about all of those things that you wrote about your experience in the movie theater; right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. During your entire trip in New York, you didn't write about Ghislaine Maxwell in your journal; right? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. And you would agree with me that having been able to refresh your memory with these journal entries has brought back some of the details that you may not have remembered if you didn't have a journal entry; right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You may not have remembered the Dutchess or -- 16 A. Right. 17 Q. What your emotions were; right? 18 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013696 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 105 of 267 2133 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 called the Dutchess? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. The Blue Man Group and the flea market and that kind of thing? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You went to the Met; right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And a pretty fun New Year's Eve party and the thrift stores? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And it was after your discussion about all of those things that you wrote about your experience in the movie theater; right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. During your entire trip in New York, you didn't write about Ghislaine Maxwell in your journal; right? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. And you would agree with me that having been able to refresh your memory with these journal entries has brought back some of the details that you may not have remembered if you didn't have a journal entry; right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You may not have remembered the Dutchess or -- 16 A. Right. 17 Q. What your emotions were; right? 18 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016321 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 106 of 267 2134 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Right. 2 Q. But having written them down in this journal, it's easy for you to now recall them? 3 A. Yeah, it helps with the frame of mind -- remind myself -- of the frame of mind. 4 5 Q. In your journal entry related to the movie theater incident - and I think you talked about this on direct - you 6 made a number of statements like, it wasn't weird, it wasn't that weird, probably normal, it's a little back and forth; is 7 that fair? 8 A. Oh, yeah. 9 Q. You even said to yourself, it sounds like I'm justifying it, but I'm not justifying it; right? 10 A. Yes. 11 (Continued on next page) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013697 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 106 of 267 2134 LCACmax3 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Right. 2 Q. But having written them down in this journal, it's easy for you to now recall them? 3 A. Yeah, it helps with the frame of mind -- remind myself -- of the frame of mind. 4 5 Q. In your journal entry related to the movie theater incident - and I think you talked about this on direct - you 6 made a number of statements like, it wasn't weird, it wasn't that weird, probably normal, it's a little back and forth; is 7 that fair? 8 A. Oh, yeah. 9 Q. You even said to yourself, it sounds like I'm justifying it, but I'm not justifying it; right? 10 A. Yes. 11 (Continued on next page) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016322 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 107 of 267 2135 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 BY MS. MENNINGER: 2 Q. And as you sit here today, you now find Epstein's behavior 3 in that movie theater weird? 4 A. I think I found it weird then too, which is why I used that 5 word so many times. But I do now, yes. 6 Q. You said it was not weird, it was normal and fine, in your 7 journal entry, right? 8 A. Yeah. I also said it weirded me out. 9 Q. And then you said, It's not a big deal. Right? 10 A. I did say that. 11 Q. And "I really don't think it is a big deal." Right? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. So you used both versions: It's weird, it's not weird. 14 Right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. As you sit here today, you find it weird, right? 17 A. I still find it weird. 18 Q. And at points in this journal entry, you did not find it 19 weird, but at other points you did, right? 20 A. That's what I wrote. 21 Q. And that's based on your today looking back on it in 22 hindsight; correct? You're looking back on your emotions on 23 January 25th, 1996; correct? 24 A. I am reflecting on that. 25 Q. You have your memories today, and you have the emotions you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013698 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 107 of 267 2135 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 BY MS. MENNINGER: 2 Q. And as you sit here today, you now find Epstein's behavior 3 in that movie theater weird? 4 A. I think I found it weird then too, which is why I used that 5 word so many times. But I do now, yes. 6 Q. You said it was not weird, it was normal and fine, in your 7 journal entry, right? 8 A. Yeah. I also said it weirded me out. 9 Q. And then you said, It's not a big deal. Right? 10 A. I did say that. 11 Q. And "I really don't think it is a big deal." Right? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. So you used both versions: It's weird, it's not weird. 14 Right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. As you sit here today, you find it weird, right? 17 A. I still find it weird. 18 Q. And at points in this journal entry, you did not find it 19 weird, but at other points you did, right? 20 A. That's what I wrote. 21 Q. And that's based on your today looking back on it in 22 hindsight; correct? You're looking back on your emotions on 23 January 25th, 1996; correct? 24 A. I am reflecting on that. 25 Q. You have your memories today, and you have the emotions you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016323 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 108 of 267 2136 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 wrote down in January of 1996, right? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. And your memories today are colored by hindsight; correct? 4 A. Of course. 5 Q. And you are colored in your memories of hindsight by what 6 happened to you in New Mexico, for example? 7 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Overruled. 9 Q. Right? 10 A. Does that affect how I perceive what happened to me in New 11 York? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. Yes, I'm sure it does in some ways. 14 Q. Right. Because what may not have seemed weird in one 15 moment, if it happened again with him, may become weirdER, 16 right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. In your journal entry, after describing the movie theater 19 incident, you continue on to talk about mundane teen 20 activities, right? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. And we don't need to talk about your friends' names, but 23 you started talking about, excuse me, who you were friends with 24 or -- 25 A. Very high school stuff, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013699 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 108 of 267 2136 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 wrote down in January of 1996, right? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. And your memories today are colored by hindsight; correct? 4 A. Of course. 5 Q. And you are colored in your memories of hindsight by what 6 happened to you in New Mexico, for example? 7 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Overruled. 9 Q. Right? 10 A. Does that affect how I perceive what happened to me in New 11 York? 12 Q. Yes. 13 A. Yes, I'm sure it does in some ways. 14 Q. Right. Because what may not have seemed weird in one 15 moment, if it happened again with him, may become weirdder, 16 right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. In your journal entry, after describing the movie theater 19 incident, you continue on to talk about mundane teen 20 activities, right? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. And we don't need to talk about your friends' names, but 23 you started talking about, excuse me, who you were friends with 24 or -- 25 A. Very high school stuff, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016324 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 109 of 267 2137 L CAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. Okay. And you even said you were in a pretty happy place at the time you wrote this entry; correct? 2 A. I did say that. 3 Q. And you were excited for the future, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And for the avoidance of all doubt, there is no entry in any of your journals that relate to Ghislaine Maxwell? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. And that is true with respect to a journal you wrote in Thailand after you claimed the New Mexico event happened; correct? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. And that's true if you had other journals from your senior year; no mention of Ghislaine Maxwell, right? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. 604 that we looked at with the government is the last journal entry that you gave to the government for this case; correct? 12 A. Sorry. Should I pull up the binder? 13 MS. MENNINGER: Actually, if Ms. Drescher could pull up 604. I just don't have that version in our computer. 14 THE COURT: Okay. It is admitted, so you may publish, please, Ms. Drescher. Thank you. 15 MS. MENNINGER: If we could go to the next page. Thank you, Ms. Drescher. And then is the back cover admitted? 16 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013700 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 109 of 267 2137 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. Okay. And you even said you were in a pretty happy place at the time you wrote this entry; correct? 2 A. I did say that. 3 Q. And you were excited for the future, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And for the avoidance of all doubt, there is no entry in any of your journals that relate to Ghislaine Maxwell? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. And that is true with respect to a journal you wrote in Thailand after you claimed the New Mexico event happened; correct? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. And that's true if you had other journals from your senior year; no mention of Ghislaine Maxwell, right? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. 604 that we looked at with the government is the last journal entry that you gave to the government for this case; correct? 12 A. Sorry. Should I pull up the binder? 13 MS. MENNINGER: Actually, if Ms. Drescher could pull up 604. I just don't have that version in our computer. 14 THE COURT: Okay. It is admitted, so you may publish, please, Ms. Drescher. Thank you. 15 MS. MENNINGER: If we could go to the next page. Thank you, Ms. Drescher. And then is the back cover admitted? 16 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016325 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 110 of 267 2138 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 Sorry, your Honor. 2 BY MS. MENNINGER: 3 Q. Is this page that you see here in front of you from 604 the last page of your journal that you gave to the government in connection with this case? 4 5 A. I don't recall, but if it's entered that way, then yes, I'm assuming it is. 6 Q. Okay. 7 MS. MENNINGER: We could pull up AF-1, page 7, just for counsel and the witness. 8 THE COURT: That's fine. 9 MS. MENNINGER: I believe it's noncontroversial. And the government has a copy of it now. 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor, we have a copy. 11 Q. So this is the back of the journal, right? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And you gave a copy of this picture of the back of this journal to the government? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. And so that's what we have. 16 A. Oh, yeah. Okay. 17 Q. We've covered everything that you gave to the government in relationship to this journal? 18 A. Okay. Yes 19 Q. Correct? 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013701 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 110 of 267 2138 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 Sorry, your Honor. 2 BY MS. MENNINGER: 3 Q. Is this page that you see here in front of you from 604 the last page of your journal that you gave to the government in connection with this case? 4 5 6 A. I don't recall, but if it's entered that way, then yes, I'm assuming it is. 7 8 Q. Okay. 9 MS. MENNINGER: We could pull up AF-1, page 7, just for counsel and the witness. 10 THE COURT: That's fine. 11 12 MS. MENNINGER: I believe it's noncontroversial. And the government has a copy of it now. 13 14 MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor, we have a copy. 15 Q. So this is the back of the journal, right? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. And you gave a copy of this picture of the back of this journal to the government? 18 19 A. Right. 20 Q. And so that's what we have. 21 A. Oh, yeah. Okay. 22 Q. We've covered everything that you gave to the government in relationship to this journal? 23 24 A. Okay. Yes. 25 Q. Correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016326 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 111 of 267 2139 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. So we have photocopied pages from within the journal? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. We have a picture of the front of the journal, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And a picture of the back of the journal? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Just to be clear, the government has never received a physical copy of the journal; correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. You have never given that to them? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. So since you -- these are all the pages we have; you do not have a journal entry that reflects your trip to New Mexico? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. We don't have "I'm excited about going to New Mexico," right? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. We don't have "I'm excited to go to New Mexico to see Maria's boss" or something like that? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. We don't have how we felt when you got home from New Mexico? 19 A. There's no journal entries about New Mexico. 20 Q. And where is the physical journal right now? 21 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013702 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 111 of 267 2139 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. So we have photocopied pages from within the journal? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. We have a picture of the front of the journal, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And a picture of the back of the journal? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Just to be clear, the government has never received a physical copy of the journal; correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. You have never given that to them? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. So since you -- these are all the pages we have; you do not have a journal entry that reflects your trip to New Mexico? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. We don't have "I'm excited about going to New Mexico," right? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. We don't have "I'm excited to go to New Mexico to see Maria's boss" or something like that? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. We don't have how we felt when you got home from New Mexico? 19 A. There's no journal entries about New Mexico. 20 Q. And where is the physical journal right now? 21 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016327 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 112 of 267 2140 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. It's in the City of New York. 2 Q. Without a journal entry from the New Mexico trip, we can't confirm with a piece of paper who invited you there, right? 3 A. With a piece of paper? No. 4 Q. Or why you were going, right? 5 A. Yes, there's no journal and record of any of that. 6 Q. There's no piece of paper that you know of, right? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. Journal or otherwise, right? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. We don't have a document that tells us when you went, right? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. And because we don't have an entry from after the trip to New Mexico, we can't tell with a piece of paper what happened to you while you were there; correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. Or who was there, right? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Or what you talked about while you were there? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. How you felt about the trip? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. Right? 21 And because we don't have a piece of paper or a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013703 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 112 of 267 2140 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. It's in the City of New York. 2 Q. Without a journal entry from the New Mexico trip, we can't confirm with a piece of paper who invited you there, right? 3 A. With a piece of paper? No. 4 Q. Or why you were going, right? 5 A. Yes, there's no journal and record of any of that. 6 Q. There's no piece of paper that you know of, right? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. Journal or otherwise, right? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. We don't have a document that tells us when you went, right? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. And because we don't have an entry from after the trip to New Mexico, we can't tell with a piece of paper what happened to you while you were there; correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. Or who was there, right? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Or what you talked about while you were there? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. How you felt about the trip? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. Right? 21 And because we don't have a piece of paper or a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016328 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 113 of 267 2141 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 journal entry, it is harder for you to remember the events in 2 the New Mexico trip versus the New York trip? 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Overruled. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You've told the government it was harder for you to 7 disaggregate discussions about those two trips? 8 A. I'm sorry, to disaggregate discussions with who? 9 Q. You had discussions about going to New York with certain 10 people, your sister, I think you said? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. You had discussions about going to New Mexico with people, 13 I think you said, before you went? 14 A. Before I went. 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You said you spoke with Mr. Epstein on the phone; correct? 18 A. About going to Thailand. I don't remember about going to 19 New Mexico. 20 Q. You spoke to him between the time you went to New York and 21 the time you went to New Mexico. 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. You spoke with him on the phone? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You did not ever speak with Ghislaine Maxwell on the phone? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013704 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 113 of 267 2141 L CAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 journal entry, it is harder for you to remember the events in 2 the New Mexico trip versus the New York trip? 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Overruled. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You've told the government it was harder for you to 7 disaggregate discussions about those two trips? 8 A. I'm sorry, to disaggregate discussions with who? 9 Q. You had discussions about going to New York with certain 10 people, your sister, I think you said? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. You had discussions about going to New Mexico with people, 13 I think you said, before you went? 14 A. Before I went. 15 Q. Yes. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You said you spoke with Mr. Epstein on the phone; correct? 18 A. About going to Thailand. I don't remember about going to 19 New Mexico. 20 Q. You spoke to him between the time you went to New York and 21 the time you went to New Mexico. 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. You spoke with him on the phone? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You did not ever speak with Ghislaine Maxwell on the phone? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016329 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 114 of 267 2142 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. I did not. 2 Q. And you spoke to your mother about going to New Mexico? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. And when you were talking to the government about all these various conversations, you told them it was harder for you to disaggregate the discussions about those two different trips, right? 8 A. I don't recall saying that, but I -- I understand what you're saying. 10 Q. Okay. And you have very little memory of how the New Mexico trip was planned; correct? 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. And you have very little memory because you have no journal entries from that time period, right? 15 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 16 THE COURT: Overruled. 17 A. I have not had a journal to help me refresh my memories of how that was planned. 19 Q. Thank you. 20 Now, you testified on direct that you believe you went in the -- to New Mexico in the spring of '96, right? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. And you also said you believe it was April of '96? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. And you're going off of your memory for that? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013705 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 114 of 267 2142 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. I did not. 2 Q. And you spoke to your mother about going to New Mexico? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. And when you were talking to the government about all these various conversations, you told them it was harder for you to disaggregate the discussions about those two different trips, right? 5 6 7 8 A. I don't recall saying that, but I -- I understand what you're saying. 9 10 Q. Okay. And you have very little memory of how the New Mexico trip was planned; correct? 11 12 A. That's correct. 13 Q. And you have very little memory because you have no journal entries from that time period, right? 14 15 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 16 THE COURT: Overruled. 17 A. I have not had a journal to help me refresh my memories of how that was planned. 18 19 Q. Thank you. 20 Now, you testified on direct that you believe you went in the -- to New Mexico in the spring of '96, right? 21 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. And you also said you believe it was April of '96? 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. And you're going off of your memory for that? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016330 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 115 of 267 2143 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Because we don't have a journal entry, right? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. And actually it's a bit of a reconstructed memory, right? 5 A. About the timeline? 6 Q. Of when you went to New Mexico. 7 A. Certain things stand out that help me to remember what the timeline would have been, yes. 8 9 Q. Okay. You remember certain things about the trip, like going to see Primal Fear, right? 10 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And what you did is you got on the internet and researched when Primal Fear was released, right? 13 14 A. I remember going to see Primal Fear. And I did at some point check to make sure that that was -- when that came out. 15 16 And that confirmed that, yes, that was the correct time that I had remembered. 17 18 Q. You confirmed the time Primal Fear was released and then placed your memory of the trip relative to that date; correct? 19 20 A. I don't think I would say it that way. 21 Q. Okay. 22 MS. MENNINGER: I'd like to show the witness what 23 we've marked for identification as AF-8. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, this is the first time SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013706 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 115 of 267 2143 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Because we don't have a journal entry, right? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. And actually it's a bit of a reconstructed memory, right? 5 A. About the timeline? 6 Q. Of when you went to New Mexico. 7 A. Certain things stand out that help me to remember what the timeline would have been, yes. 8 9 Q. Okay. You remember certain things about the trip, like 10 going to see Primal Fear, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And what you did is you got on the internet and researched 13 when Primal Fear was released, right? 14 A. I remember going to see Primal Fear. And I did at some 15 point check to make sure that that was -- when that came out. 16 And that confirmed that, yes, that was the correct time that I 17 had remembered. 18 Q. You confirmed the time Primal Fear was released and then 19 placed your memory of the trip relative to that date; correct? 20 A. I don't think I would say it that way. 21 Q. Okay. 22 MS. MENNINGER: I'd like to show the witness what 23 we've marked for identification as AF-8. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, this is the first time SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016331 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 116 of 267 2144 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 we're seeing this, so I'd ask for just a moment to review. 2 THE COURT: You may. 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Go ahead. 5 MS. MENNINGER: May I show AF-8 to the witness, your Honor? 6 7 THE COURT: You may. 8 MS. MENNINGER: Can you please put it on counsel's screen. 9 10 BY MS. MENNINGER: 11 Q. Ms. Farmer, you recall having email communications with a journalist? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And that journalist's name is Mike Baker? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. He works for The New York Times? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. You gave an interview with Mr. Baker relative to your experiences; correct? 18 A. I did. 19 Q. And before you did that, Mr. Baker had some emails where he was confirming certain dates with you? 20 A. That's right. 21 Q. And one of the communications Mr. Baker asked about is the timing of your trip to New Mexico? 22 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013707 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 116 of 267 2144 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross we're seeing this, so I'd ask for just a moment to review. THE COURT: You may. MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. THE COURT: Go ahead. MS. MENNINGER: May I show AF-8 to the witness, your Honor? THE COURT: You may. MS. MENNINGER: Can you please put it on counsel's screen. BY MS. MENNINGER: Q. Ms. Farmer, you recall having email communications with a journalist? A. Yes. Q. And that journalist's name is Mike Baker? A. Correct. Q. He works for The New York Times? A. That's correct. Q. You gave an interview with Mr. Baker relative to your experiences; correct? A. I did. Q. And before you did that, Mr. Baker had some emails where he was confirming certain dates with you? A. That's right. Q. And one of the communications Mr. Baker asked about is the timing of your trip to New Mexico? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016332 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 117 of 267 2145 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. And he cited your recollection that it was in the spring? 3 A. Sorry. I just read the first part. I'm looking at the bottom. 4 5 Q. If you look at the bottom full paragraph -- 6 A. Oh, yeah. 7 Q. -- does that refresh your memory -- 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. -- he's asking you? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And he said he understood it was in the spring, maybe April, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. And you wrote him back and told him that you had looked up the release date of Primal Fear? 15 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Right? 18 And you told him it wasn't out until April 3rd, right? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. And you told him that you also had talked to some of your friends, right? 21 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. About when prom was? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. And that was in late April, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013708 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 117 of 267 2145 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. That's right. 2 Q. And he cited your recollection that it was in the spring? 3 A. Sorry. I just read the first part. I'm looking at the bottom. 4 5 Q. If you look at the bottom full paragraph -- 6 A. Oh, yeah. 7 Q. -- does that refresh your memory -- 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. -- he's asking you? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And he said he understood it was in the spring, maybe April, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 14 Q. And you wrote him back and told him that you had looked up the release date of Primal Fear? 15 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Right? 18 And you told him it wasn't out until April 3rd, right? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. And you told him that you also had talked to some of your friends, right? 21 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. About when prom was? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. And that was in late April, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016333 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 118 of 267 2146 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. That's correct. Q. And so after looking up Primal Fear and talking to your friends, you told him you're feeling pretty confident that it was April? 3 friends, you told him you're feeling pretty confident that it was April? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. So you took some memory fragments that you had, Primal Fear and prom, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you looked up things on the internet, right? 8 A. Yeah, I wanted to be accurate. I had just said the spring, 9 and so I wanted to, you know, provide more detail. 10 Q. And so you compared it to the release date of Primal Fear, right? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. You compared it to your friends' memories of when prom was, right? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. And that led you to be pretty confident that the trip occurred in April of '96, right? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. And that's how you reconstructed your memory that it was April of 1996? 17 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: What are the grounds? One-word grounds. 19 MS. POMERANTZ: Just mischaracterization. 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013709 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 118 of 267 2146 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. That's correct. Q. And so after looking up Primal Fear and talking to your friends, you told him you're feeling pretty confident that it was April? A. Yes. Q. So you took some memory fragments that you had, Primal Fear and prom, right? A. Yes. Q. And you looked up things on the internet, right? A. Yeah, I wanted to be accurate. I had just said the spring, and so I wanted to, you know, provide more detail. Q. And so you compared it to the release date of Primal Fear, right? A. Right. Q. You compared it to your friends' memories of when prom was, right? A. Right. Q. And that led you to be pretty confident that the trip occurred in April of '96, right? A. Right. Q. And that's how you reconstructed your memory that it was April of 1996? MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. THE COURT: What are the grounds? One-word grounds. MS. POMERANTZ: Just mischaracterization. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016334 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 119 of 267 2147 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 THE COURT: Overruled. 2 Q. Right? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. You wanted to be accurate? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So you checked it against dates and you checked it against other people's memories, right? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. That's how you make sure it's accurate? 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Overruled. 12 Q. Right? 13 A. That's how I make sure -- 14 Q. Your memory is accurate. 15 A. In general? 16 Q. In this case. 17 A. In this case that's what I did, yes. I said that, yes. 18 Q. Talking about things that happened 25 years ago, right? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. You also were trying to figure out or you were telling him about the dates of your trip to Thailand, Mr. Baker? 22 A. That's right. 23 Q. And you were able to tell Mr. Baker the dates of your trip to Thailand because you always remember you went on your birthday? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013710 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 119 of 267 2147 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 THE COURT: Overruled. 2 Q. Right? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. You wanted to be accurate? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So you checked it against dates and you checked it against other people's memories, right? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. That's how you make sure it's accurate? 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Overruled. 12 Q. Right? 13 A. That's how I make sure -- 14 Q. Your memory is accurate. 15 A. In general? 16 Q. In this case. 17 A. In this case that's what I did, yes. I said that, yes. 18 Q. Talking about things that happened 25 years ago, right? 19 A. Right. 20 Q. You also were trying to figure out or you were telling him about the dates of your trip to Thailand, Mr. Baker? 22 A. That's right. 23 Q. And you were able to tell Mr. Baker the dates of your trip to Thailand because you always remember you went on your birthday? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016335 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 120 of 267 2148 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Right. 2 Q. And you have pegged your memory of going to Thailand with your birthday, which was in early July? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. And so you were able to remember the dates of your trip to Thailand by reference to your birthday? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. And you're sure that you went to Thailand in the summer of 1996, right? 7 A. Right. 8 MS. MENNINGER: And we can take that down now. 9 Q. There would be records of you going to Thailand in the summer of 1996 presumably; correct? 10 A. What kind of -- I mean -- 11 Q. You traveled abroad. 12 A. I'm sure they are somewhere. This was before digital records, but -- 13 Q. You had a passport? 14 A. Yes, yes, for sure. 15 Q. You crossed borders? 16 A. Yeah, those records, yeah. I don't have those, but yeah. 17 Q. You went with a school organization? 18 A. Global Roots, yeah; it was a nonprofit. 19 Q. So presumably there are records somewhere that substantiate the date of your trip. 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 21 DOJ-OGR-00013711 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 120 of 267 2148 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Right. 2 Q. And you have pegged your memory of going to Thailand with your birthday, which was in early July? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. And so you were able to remember the dates of your trip to Thailand by reference to your birthday? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. And you're sure that you went to Thailand in the summer of 1996, right? 7 A. Right. 8 MS. MENNINGER: And we can take that down now. 9 Q. There would be records of you going to Thailand in the summer of 1996 presumably; correct? 10 A. What kind of -- I mean -- 11 Q. You traveled abroad. 12 A. I'm sure they are somewhere. This was before digital records, but -- 13 Q. You had a passport? 14 A. Yes, yes, for sure. 15 Q. You crossed borders? 16 A. Yeah, those records, yeah. I don't have those, but yeah. 17 Q. You went with a school organization? 18 A. Global Roots, yeah; it was a nonprofit. 19 Q. So presumably there are records somewhere that substantiate the date of your trip. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016336 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 121 of 267 2149 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Right. 2 MS. MENNINGER: Can I have one moment, your Honor? 3 THE COURT: You may. 4 (Counsel conferred) 5 BY MS. MENNINGER: 6 Q. You talked on direct about the fact that you -- let me make sure I've got my quote accurate. You talked generally about once you got to New Mexico, that Ghislaine did not seem surprised to see you there. 7 A. Right. 8 Q. And that you felt more comfortable because she was there. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Originally, your sister Maria was going to accompany you on this trip to New Mexico; correct? 11 A. I don't remember that. 12 Q. Well, do you remember meeting with the FBI in 2006? 13 A. I do remember that meeting. 14 Q. Okay. And just as a side note, you I think, testified on direct that you believed the meeting with the FBI was in either 2006 or 2007? 15 A. Yeah. I had holiday decorations up, so I remember it was that late in the year. 16 Q. Well, earlier you have said that you remembered it was 2007 because you remembered it being hot out. Do you remember that statement? 17 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 18 DOJ-OGR-00013712 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 121 of 267 2149 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Right. 2 MS. MENNINGER: Can I have one moment, your Honor? 3 THE COURT: You may. 4 (Counsel conferred) 5 BY MS. MENNINGER: 6 Q. You talked on direct about the fact that you -- let me make sure I've got my quote accurate. You talked generally about once you got to New Mexico, that Ghislaine did not seem surprised to see you there. 7 A. Right. 8 Q. And that you felt more comfortable because she was there. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Originally, your sister Maria was going to accompany you on this trip to New Mexico; correct? 11 A. I don't remember that. 12 Q. Well, do you remember meeting with the FBI in 2006? 13 A. I do remember that meeting. 14 Q. Okay. And just as a side note, you I think, testified on direct that you believed the meeting with the FBI was in either 2006 or 2007? 15 A. Yeah. I had holiday decorations up, so I remember it was that late in the year. 16 Q. Well, earlier you have said that you remembered it was 2007 because you remembered it being hot out. Do you remember that statement? 17 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 18 DOJ-OGR-00016337 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 122 of 267 2150 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Time frame. 3 You're talking about her testimony on direct? 4 MS. MENNINGER: Well, no, your Honor, I apologize. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. 6 MS. MENNINGER: Let me be more clear. 7 BY MS. MENNINGER: 8 Q. In past interviews, you were trying to reconstruct the date of your interview with the FBI, do you remember that? You were asked to talk about when that meeting was? 9 10 A. Do you remember what interview -- what -- 11 Q. Let me come back to it just to make sure I'm accurate. 12 But, in any event, you spoke to them in 2006 or 2007 is your 13 memory now? 14 15 A. Right. 16 MS. MENNINGER: And so if I could have the witness 17 look at 3514-001. 18 Q. And if you look at this document, does that refresh your 19 memory about when your first meeting with the FBI was? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And that was in November of 2006? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And the actual interview was on November 15th, 2006 at the 24 bottom of the page; correct? 25 THE COURT: Can you make it larger please? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013713 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 122 of 267 2150 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Time frame. 3 You're talking about her testimony on direct? 4 MS. MENNINGER: Well, no, your Honor, I apologize. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. 6 MS. MENNINGER: Let me be more clear. 7 BY MS. MENNINGER: 8 Q. In past interviews, you were trying to reconstruct the date of your interview with the FBI, do you remember that? You were asked to talk about when that meeting was? 9 10 A. Do you remember what interview -- what -- 11 Q. Let me come back to it just to make sure I'm accurate. But, in any event, you spoke to them in 2006 or 2007 is your memory now? 12 13 A. Right. 14 15 MS. MENNINGER: And so if I could have the witness look at 3514-001. 16 17 Q. And if you look at this document, does that refresh your memory about when your first meeting with the FBI was? 18 19 A. Yes. 20 21 Q. And that was in November of 2006? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And the actual interview was on November 15th, 2006 at the bottom of the page; correct? 24 25 THE COURT: Can you make it larger please? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016338 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 123 of 267 2151 L CAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 MS. MENNINGER: Yes. 2 Q. The interview was on November 15th of 2006 at your home in Austin, Texas; correct? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. And then the date of the report was a couple of weeks later. If we could look at the top of the page. November 28th. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And so on page 2 of that document, in the second full paragraph, the last sentence of that paragraph, what you told the FBI in November of 2006 is that originally Maria was going to accompany Annie to New Mexico; correct? 7 A. I see it says that. 8 Q. And that's what you told the FBI in November of 2006; correct? 9 A. I don't recall that, but I see that that's written here. 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I would ask that the next sentence be read. It's for completeness of the record. 11 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, that's what redirect is for. 12 THE COURT: You can ask your next question. 13 BY MS. MENNINGER: 14 Q. You don't recall telling the FBI in November of 2006 that originally Maria was going to accompany you to New Mexico; correct? 15 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013714 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 123 of 267 2151 L CAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 MS. MENNINGER: Yes. 2 Q. The interview was on November 15th of 2006 at your home in Austin, Texas; correct? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. And then the date of the report was a couple of weeks later. If we could look at the top of the page. November 5 28th. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And so on page 2 of that document, in the second full paragraph, the last sentence of that paragraph, what you told 8 the FBI in November of 2006 is that originally Maria was going to accompany Annie to New Mexico; correct? 9 A. I see it says that. 10 Q. And that's what you told the FBI in November of 2006; correct? 11 A. I don't recall that, but I see that that's written here. 12 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I would ask that the next sentence be read. It's for completeness of the record. 13 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, that's what redirect is for. 14 THE COURT: You can ask your next question. 15 BY MS. MENNINGER: 16 Q. You don't recall telling the FBI in November of 2006 that originally Maria was going to accompany you to New Mexico; correct? 17 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016339 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 124 of 267 2152 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. That's correct. MS. MENNINGER: We can take it down. Q. You did meet with agents at your home in November of 2006; correct? A. Correct. Q. Agent Rykkendall and Slater? A. That's correct. Q. And they sat down and talked to you for some time; correct? A. They did. Q. They were taking notes when they talked to you? A. They were. Q. And they are FBI agents; correct? A. Yes. Q. They represented themselves to be? A. They did. Q. And they apparently wrote a report about the interview, right? A. Right. Q. And they wrote in their report that originally Maria was going to accompany you, right? A. They wrote that, yes. THE COURT: We're going to break for lunch shortly, if this is a breaking point. MS. MENNINGER: It's fine, your Honor. THE COURT: Members of the jury, we'll break for about SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013715 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 124 of 267 2152 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. That's correct. MS. MENNINGER: We can take it down. 2 Q. You did meet with agents at your home in November of 2006; correct? 3 A. Correct. 4 Q. Agent Rayyrkendall and Slater? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. And they sat down and talked to you for some time; correct? 7 A. They did. 8 Q. They were taking notes when they talked to you? 9 A. They were. 10 Q. And they are FBI agents; correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. They represented themselves to be? 13 A. They did. 14 Q. And they apparently wrote a report about the interview, right? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. And they wrote in their report that originally Maria was going to accompany you, right? 17 A. They wrote that, yes. 18 THE COURT: We're going to break for lunch shortly, if 19 this is a breaking point. 20 MS. MENNINGER: It's fine, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Members of the jury, we'll break for about 22 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016340 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 125 of 267 2153 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross an hour. See you then. Enjoy your lunch. (Jury not present) THE COURT: Are there matters to take up before the break? MS. POMERANTZ: Not from the government. MS. MENNINGER: Not from us, your Honor. Thank you. THE COURT: Okay. We'll reconvene in 45. And you'll let me know if there's anything to take up. Thank you. Have a good lunch. MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you. (Luncheon recess) (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013716 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 125 of 267 2153 LCAVMAX4 A. Farmer - cross an hour. See you then. Enjoy your lunch. (Jury not present) THE COURT: Are there matters to take up before the break? MS. POMERANTZ: Not from the government. MS. MENNINGER: Not from us, your Honor. Thank you. THE COURT: Okay. We'll reconvene in 45. And you'll let me know if there's anything to take up. Thank you. Have a good lunch. MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you. (Luncheon recess) (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016341 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 126 of 267 2154 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross AFTERNOON SESSION 1:30 p.m. THE COURT: All right. Matters to take up, counsel? MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, just briefly from the government, my not amazing math skills, but I note that I think that the witness who's been on cross examination now for about the same amount of time that she was on direct examination, it would be helpful for scheduling purposes to know when we can expect to have the next witness ready. MS. MENNINGER: I don't know, your Honor. An hour. MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. And the other question, I just -- rather not a question, just one thing I wanted to flag. I believe that, on cross examination, the witness was asked some questions about hindsight bias, which I expect to be a subject of expert testimony, and this witness, as she testified earlier on direct examination, is a psychologist. I'm not saying that there is anything to take up at this moment, but before she had taken the stand and the parties had conferred, we were asked that she wasn't going to be -- we were asked by Ms. Menninger to make sure that she wasn't going to be testifying about things in that area. So I just wanted to flag that she is testifying as a lay witness and that she shouldn't be asked questions on cross examination that would be the subject of expert testimony. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013717 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 126 of 267 2154 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross AFTERNOON SESSION 1:30 p.m. THE COURT: All right. Matters to take up, counsel? MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, just briefly from the government, my not amazing math skills, but I note that I think that the witness who's been on cross examination now for about the same amount of time that she was on direct examination, it would be helpful for scheduling purposes to know when we can expect to have the next witness ready. MS. MENNINGER: I don't know, your Honor. An hour. MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. And the other question, I just -- rather not a question, just one thing I wanted to flag. I believe that, on cross examination, the witness was asked some questions about hindsight bias, which I expect to be a subject of expert testimony, and this witness, as she testified earlier on direct examination, is a psychologist. I'm not saying that there is anything to take up at this moment, but before she had taken the stand and the parties had conferred, we were asked that she wasn't going to be -- we were asked by Ms. Menninger to make sure that she wasn't going to be testifying about things in that area. So I just wanted to flag that she is testifying as a lay witness and that she shouldn't be asked questions on cross examination that would be the subject of expert testimony. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016342 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 127 of 267 2155 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 Again, I'm happy to take it up as it comes, but I just wanted to flag that for the Court. 2 3 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I most definitely did not ask her about hindsight bias. I asked her about her impressions of situations factually in hindsight. Even when we litigated expert issues around hindsight bias, there was a clear distinction made between what is obvious to a lay juror as seeing things in hindsight versus currently. I did not use any of the expert language associated with hindsight bias. So I disagree with any characterization that was somehow related to an opinion under 702. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 THE COURT: All right. Are there further questions in that regard? 13 14 MS. MENNINGER: There are not. 15 THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Pomerantz. 16 MS. POMERANTZ: That's fine. Thank you, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Anything else to take up? 18 MS. POMERANTZ: Not from the government. Thank you. 19 MS. MENNINGER: Not from the defense. Thank you. 20 THE COURT: We can bring the witness back, please. 21 (Witness present) 22 You may take your seat and you're welcome to remove your mask, please. Thank you. 23 24 We can bring the jury back in. 25 (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013718 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 127 of 267 2155 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 Again, I'm happy to take it up as it comes, but I just wanted to flag that for the Court. 2 3 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I most definitely did not ask her about hindsight bias. I asked her about her impressions of situations factually in hindsight. Even when we litigated expert issues around hindsight bias, there was a clear distinction made between what is obvious to a lay juror as seeing things in hindsight versus currently. I did not use any of the expert language associated with hindsight bias. So I disagree with any characterization that was somehow related to an opinion under 702. 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 THE COURT: All right. Are there further questions in that regard? 13 14 MS. MENNINGER: There are not. 15 THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Pomerantz. 16 MS. POMERANTZ: That's fine. Thank you, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Anything else to take up? 18 MS. POMERANTZ: Not from the government. Thank you. 19 MS. MENNINGER: Not from the defense. Thank you. 20 THE COURT: We can bring the witness back, please. 21 (Witness present) 22 You may take your seat and you're welcome to remove your mask, please. Thank you. 23 24 We can bring the jury back in. 25 (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016343 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 128 of 267 2156 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Good afternoon, members of the jury. Hope 3 you had a good lunch. Appreciate your continued attention, 4 diligence, and patience. 5 Ms. Menninger, you may continue with your cross 6 examination. 7 Ms. Farmer, I remind you, you are under oath. 8 You may inquire. 9 MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor. 10 BY MS. MENNINGER: 11 Q. Before you traveled from Arizona to New Mexico, I believe 12 you testified you did not talk to Jeffrey Epstein about the 13 trip to New Mexico; correct? 14 A. That's right. 15 Q. So, because you did not talk to him about the trip, 16 Mr. Epstein did not tell you that Ms. Maxwell would be in New 17 Mexico; correct? 18 A. Mr. Epstein did not. 19 Q. Mr. Epstein. I apologize. Thank you. Did not tell you 20 Ms. Maxwell would be there? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. And you did not talk to Ms. Maxwell ever before you arrived 23 in New Mexico; correct? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. The information about the New Mexico trip came from your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013719 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 128 of 267 2156 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Good afternoon, members of the jury. Hope you had a good lunch. Appreciate your continued attention, diligence, and patience. 5 Ms. Menninger, you may continue with your cross examination. 7 Ms. Farmer, I remind you, you are under oath. You may inquire. 9 MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor. 10 BY MS. MENNINGER: 11 Q. Before you traveled from Arizona to New Mexico, I believe you testified you did not talk to Jeffrey Epstein about the trip to New Mexico; correct? 13 A. That's right. 15 Q. So, because you did not talk to him about the trip, 16 Mr. Epstein did not tell you that Ms. Maxwell would be in New Mexico; correct? 18 A. Mr. Epstein did not. 19 Q. Mr. Epstein. I apologize. Thank you. Did not tell you Ms. Maxwell would be there? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. And you did not talk to Ms. Maxwell ever before you arrived in New Mexico; correct? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. The information about the New Mexico trip came from your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016344 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 129 of 267 2157 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 mother? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. As far as planning for the trip to New Mexico, you don't 4 know how you got the ticket or things like that, the logistics? 5 A. How the ticket was delivered, no, I don't know. 6 Q. When you arrived in New Mexico, you do not recall Ghislaine 7 ever saying to you she knew you would be there; correct? 8 A. I don't have a memory of her saying those words. 9 Q. And you don't remember her saying anything to you about the 10 travel or the trip; right? 11 A. About the actual, like, logistical travel? 12 Q. Right. 13 A. I don't have a memory of that. 14 Q. And that's consistent with her perhaps thinking that your 15 sister was going to be coming with you, correct? 16 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 Q. You have no personal knowledge that Ghislaine made any of 19 your travel plans; correct? 20 A. I do not. 21 Q. And you have no personal knowledge that she encouraged you 22 to travel to New Mexico; right? 23 A. I do not. 24 Q. Or enticed you to travel to New Mexico? 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013720 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 129 of 267 2157 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 mother? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. As far as planning for the trip to New Mexico, you don't 4 know how you got the ticket or things like that, the logistics? 5 A. How the ticket was delivered, no, I don't know. 6 Q. When you arrived in New Mexico, you do not recall Ghislaine 7 ever saying to you she knew you would be there; correct? 8 A. I don't have a memory of her saying those words. 9 Q. And you don't remember her saying anything to you about the 10 travel or the trip; right? 11 A. About the actual, like, logistical travel? 12 Q. Right. 13 A. I don't have a memory of that. 14 Q. And that's consistent with her perhaps thinking that your 15 sister was going to be coming with you, correct? 16 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 Q. You have no personal knowledge that Ghislaine made any of 19 your travel plans; correct? 20 A. I do not. 21 Q. And you have no personal knowledge that she encouraged you 22 to travel to New Mexico; right? 23 A. I do not. 24 Q. Or enticed you to travel to New Mexico? 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016345 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 130 of 267 2158 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 Q. Transported you to New Mexico? 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 4 THE COURT: I'll allow it. 5 A. Do I have personal knowledge that Maxwell -- sorry. 6 Q. Ghislaine transported you to New Mexico. 7 A. No. 8 Q. You have no knowledge that she did; correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. The trip that you took to New Mexico was from a Friday to a Sunday; right? 11 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. That was over a weekend? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. It wasn't in the middle of the week? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. It wasn't Wednesday to Friday, for example? 18 A. That's right. 19 Q. And you and your mother have discussed this and you both recall that it was over a weekend; right? 20 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. And you told the government that you had talked with your mother about that topic? 23 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. And you and your mother have the same memory of it being SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013721 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 130 of 267 2158 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 Q. Transported you to New Mexico? 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 4 THE COURT: I'll allow it. 5 A. Do I have personal knowledge that Maxwell -- sorry. 6 Q. Ghislaine transported you to New Mexico. 7 A. No. 8 Q. You have no knowledge that she did; correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. The trip that you took to New Mexico was from a Friday to a Sunday; right? 11 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. That was over a weekend? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. It wasn't in the middle of the week? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. It wasn't Wednesday to Friday, for example? 18 A. That's right. 19 Q. And you and your mother have discussed this and you both recall that it was over a weekend; right? 20 21 A. That's correct. 22 Q. And you told the government that you had talked with your mother about that topic? 23 24 A. That's right. 25 Q. And you and your mother have the same memory of it being SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016346 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 131 of 267 2159 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 over the weekend? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You have seen flight logs that are held in connection with this case; correct? 4 A. I do not recall seeing flight logs about this. Flight logs about me going to New Mexico? 5 Q. I want to be very clear. You're not on any flight logs, to your knowledge; right? 6 A. I don't know of being on any flight logs. 7 Q. You never told anyone that you traveled on Epstein's private plane? 8 A. No. Sorry. I was confused. 9 Q. Right? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. You and I have to be careful not to speak over one another. I will try. 12 You have no reason to believe you were on a flight log related to Mr. Epstein's private plane; right? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. Because you never traveled on Mr. Epstein's private plane; correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Have you ever reviewed the flight logs related to Mr. Epstein's private plane in connection with anything? 17 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013722 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 131 of 267 2159 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 over the weekend? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You have seen flight logs that are held in connection with this case; correct? 4 A. I do not recall seeing flight logs about this. Flight logs 5 about me going to New Mexico? 6 Q. I want to be very clear. You're not on any flight logs, to 7 your knowledge; right? 8 A. I don't know of being on any flight logs. 9 Q. You never told anyone that you traveled on Epstein's 10 private plane? 11 A. No. Sorry. I was confused. 12 Q. Right? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. You and I have to be careful not to speak over one another. 15 I will try. 16 You have no reason to believe you were on a flight log 17 related to Mr. Epstein's private plane; right? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. Because you never traveled on Mr. Epstein's private plane; 20 correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. Have you ever reviewed the flight logs related to 23 Mr. Epstein's private plane in connection with anything? 24 A. No. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016347 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 132 of 267 2160 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. So you don't know whether there is a flight log entry showing either Ghislaine Maxwell or Jeffrey Epstein traveling to New Mexico over a weekend in April of 1996; right? 2 A. I do not. 3 Q. While you were at the ranch, there were other people there, I believe you testified? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. There was a driver that took you to and from the airport? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. There were other ranch hands working there? 8 A. There were. 9 Q. There was actually, I think you did not mention on direct a chef who was present; correct? 10 A. I -- I don't have a lot of memories of that. 11 Q. You don't recall a chef who made meals for you while you were at the ranch? 12 A. I don't recall a person doing that, but that makes sense to me, that there was a chef there. 13 Q. If I could refresh your memory by having you look at 3514-001, and this is the same 2006 document we looked at earlier, page 3. 14 A. Is this in the binder? 15 Q. We're going to show it to you on the screen because it will be easier than you flipping to it. But if you want to see the whole document, let us know. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013723 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 132 of 267 2160 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. So you don't know whether there is a flight log entry showing either Ghislaine Maxwell or Jeffrey Epstein traveling to New Mexico over a weekend in April of 1996; right? 2 A. I do not. 3 Q. While you were at the ranch, there were other people there, I believe you testified? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. There was a driver that took you to and from the airport? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. There were other ranch hands working there? 8 A. There were. 9 Q. There was actually, I think you did not mention on direct a chef who was present; correct? 10 A. I -- I don't have a lot of memories of that. 11 Q. You don't recall a chef who made meals for you while you were at the ranch? 12 A. I don't recall a person doing that, but that makes sense to me, that there was a chef there. 13 Q. If I could refresh your memory by having you look at 3514-001, and this is the same 2006 document we looked at earlier, page 3. 14 A. Is this in the binder? 15 Q. We're going to show it to you on the screen because it will be easier than you flipping to it. But if you want to see the whole document, let us know. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016348 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 133 of 267 2161 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 So if we can look at the second full paragraph, in other words the last paragraph on that page and call that out. If you could take a look just at this paragraph, Ms. Farmer, and see if this refreshes your memory about a chef. A. Yes. Q. And this is -- A. Sorry. Q. And this is from your conversation with the FBI in 2006? A. Right. I still don't have, like, an image in my mind of the chef, but I see that that is a part of the notes from that interview, yes. Q. And so, understanding all of this is taking place a long time ago, is it your belief that, in 2006, you had a memory of a chef preparing dinner for all three of you? A. Yes. MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. THE COURT: Just a minute. Overruled. Q. You may answer. Do you want me to rephrase it? A. I think I got it. Yes. Q. As you sit here now, you believe that, in 2006, you had a memory of a chef who prepared a meal for all three of you? A. That's what I'm taking from reading this. Q. But you don't have that memory today? A. Right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013724 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 133 of 267 2161 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 So if we can look at the second full paragraph, in other words the last paragraph on that page and call that out. If you could take a look just at this paragraph, Ms. Farmer, and see if this refreshes your memory about a chef. A. Yes. Q. And this is -- A. Sorry. Q. And this is from your conversation with the FBI in 2006? A. Right. I still don't have, like, an image in my mind of the chef, but I see that that is a part of the notes from that interview, yes. Q. And so, understanding all of this is taking place a long time ago, is it your belief that, in 2006, you had a memory of a chef preparing dinner for all three of you? A. Yes. MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. THE COURT: Just a minute. Overruled. Q. You may answer. Do you want me to rephrase it? A. I think I got it. Yes. Q. As you sit here now, you believe that, in 2006, you had a memory of a chef who prepared a meal for all three of you? A. That's what I'm taking from reading this. Q. But you don't have that memory today? A. Right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016349 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 134 of 267 2162 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 MS. MENNINGER: We can take that down. Thank you. 2 Q. There were other people on the ranch that were working there; right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. You don't have a memory of their names or things like that? 5 A. I do not. 6 Q. Their faces? 7 A. Not really. I mean, I have a little better image in my mind of, like, the ranch hand I was talking about, but I don't -- I couldn't identify him. 8 Q. During your involvement with this case, the government has never shown you photographs of people who worked on the ranch to see if that refreshed your memory; correct? 9 A. Not that I recall. 10 Q. So you don't have a refreshed memory about the people that worked on the ranch? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. You testified on direct that there was a small residence that you were staying in at the ranch? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. The ranch is a large piece of land; correct? 15 A. That's right. Yes. 16 Q. When you referred to the ranch, you're talking about the large piece of land? 17 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013725 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 134 of 267 2162 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross MS. MENNINGER: We can take that down. Thank you. Q. There were other people on the ranch that were working there; right? A. Yes. Q. You don't have a memory of their names or things like that? A. I do not. Q. Their faces? A. Not really. I mean, I have a little better image in my mind of, like, the ranch hand I was talking about, but I don't -- I couldn't identify him. Q. During your involvement with this case, the government has never shown you photographs of people who worked on the ranch to see if that refreshed your memory; correct? A. Not that I recall. Q. So you don't have a refreshed memory about the people that worked on the ranch? A. Right. Q. You testified on direct that there was a small residence that you were staying in at the ranch? A. Right. Q. The ranch is a large piece of land; correct? A. That's right. Yes. Q. When you referred to the ranch, you're talking about the large piece of land? A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016350 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 135 of 267 2163 LCACmax5 Q. And on that large piece of land, I think you testified there was a movie set that you visited, an old movie set? A. Right. Q. And there was a small residence and that's where you stayed? A. Right. Q. You did not stay at the big, glorious Zorro Ranch that Mr. Epstein owned later; correct? A. Correct. Q. You did not see the big, glorious Zorro Ranch while you were there; right? A. No. Q. And you certainly didn't stay in the big, glorious Zorro Ranch while you were there; right? A. I did not. Q. You've seen those photos on news accounts since then; right? A. I've seen a couple photos of that, yes. Q. And so that big, huge mansion-like place is not what you saw? A. Correct. Q. And it's not where you stayed? A. Correct. Q. So if another witness said that they saw a big, glorious ranch in '94, '95, that's inconsistent with your memory of the ranch in '94, '95? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013726 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 135 of 267 2163 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. And on that large piece of land, I think you testified there was a movie set that you visited, an old movie set? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. And there was a small residence and that's where you 4 stayed? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. You did not stay at the big, glorious Zorro Ranch that 7 Mr. Epstein owned later; correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. You did not see the big, glorious Zorro Ranch while you 10 were there; right? 11 A. No. 12 Q. And you certainly didn't stay in the big, glorious Zorro 13 Ranch while you were there; right? 14 A. I did not. 15 Q. You've seen those photos on news accounts since then; 16 right? 17 A. I've seen a couple photos of that, yes. 18 Q. And so that big, huge mansion-like place is not what you 19 saw? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. And it's not where you stayed? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. So if another witness said that they saw a big, glorious 24 ranch in '94, '95, that's inconsistent with your memory of the 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016351 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 136 of 267 2164 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 buildings on the ranch? 2 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 3 THE COURT: Sustained. 4 Q. You have no memory of a big glorious mansion on the ranch? 5 A. I know there were other buildings, as I said, but I don't 6 have much memory about what the others were because we weren't 7 spending time in them. 8 Q. You took a tour of the whole ranch while you were there; right? 9 10 A. I took a tour out to the movie set. It was more of an 11 outdoor -- as I said, we were seeing the horses and we were 12 seeing the movie set. 13 Q. No one took you on a tour by a place under construction? 14 A. I don't -- I have no memory of that. 15 Q. You went on a shopping trip that you talked about on direct 16 examine; correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. You went to a natural grocery store? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. You went to a western wear store? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. That's where Epstein bought you cowboy boots? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. I don't think you mentioned on direct, but you also went 25 horseback riding while you were on the ranch; correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013727 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 136 of 267 2164 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 buildings on the ranch? 2 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 3 THE COURT: Sustained. 4 Q. You have no memory of a big glorious mansion on the ranch? 5 A. I know there were other buildings, as I said, but I don't 6 have much memory about what the others were because we weren't 7 spending time in them. 8 Q. You took a tour of the whole ranch while you were there; right? 9 10 A. I took a tour out to the movie set. It was more of an 11 outdoor -- as I said, we were seeing the horses and we were 12 seeing the movie set. 13 Q. No one took you on a tour by a place under construction? 14 A. I don't -- I have no memory of that. 15 Q. You went on a shopping trip that you talked about on direct 16 examine; correct? 17 A. That's correct. 18 Q. You went to a natural grocery store? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. You went to a western wear store? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. That's where Epstein bought you cowboy boots? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. I don't think you mentioned on direct, but you also went 25 horseback riding while you were on the ranch; correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016352 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 137 of 267 2165 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. That does sound familiar, yes. That did happen. 2 Q. Well, you actually spent a significant amount of time horseback riding while you were at the ranch? 3 A. A significant amount of time? 4 Q. Horseback riding while were you at the ranch. 5 A. Is that a question? 6 Q. Yes. Did you spend a significant amount of time horseback riding while were you at the ranch? 7 A. I wouldn't say significant. I don't remember going on more than one occasion. 8 MS. MENNINGER: If I could direct the witness's attention to 3514-001, page 2, the last paragraph on that page. 9 This, again, is from the 2006 interview. 10 Q. What you relayed to the FBI agents in 2006 is that you spent a significant amount of time horseback riding on the ranch; correct? 11 A. That's this document, yes. 12 Q. That the FBI took notes of in 2006? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And you told them that right after you told them about buying cowboy boots? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. And you told them that right after you told them about going shopping at the store for the natural food products; right? 17 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013728 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 137 of 267 2165 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. That does sound familiar, yes. That did happen. 2 Q. Well, you actually spent a significant amount of time horseback riding while you were at the ranch? 3 A. A significant amount of time? 4 Q. Horseback riding while were you at the ranch. 5 A. Is that a question? 6 Q. Yes. Did you spend a significant amount of time horseback riding while were you at the ranch? 7 A. I wouldn't say significant. I don't remember going on more than one occasion. 8 MS. MENNINGER: If I could direct the witness's attention to 3514-001, page 2, the last paragraph on that page. 9 This, again, is from the 2006 interview. 10 Q. What you relayed to the FBI agents in 2006 is that you spent a significant amount of time horseback riding on the ranch; correct? 11 A. That's this document, yes. 12 Q. That the FBI took notes of in 2006? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And you told them that right after you told them about buying cowboy boots? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. And you told them that right after you told them about going shopping at the store for the natural food products; right? 17 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016353 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 138 of 267 2166 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Right. 2 Q. So you went shopping at the store, you went and bought cowboy boots, and then you went horseback riding? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. For a significant amount of time? 5 A. That's what this says, yes. 6 Q. And you needed the cowboy boots to go horseback riding -- 7 A. Horseback riding -- 8 Q. Right -- 9 A. I mean, you can go horseback riding without cowboy boots, but I'm sure that was the purpose, yes. 10 Q. I want to talk about the boots a little bit more. You said Epstein bought you those boots; correct? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. And you kept the boots; right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You kept them for 25 years? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Quarter of a century; right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you chose to wear the boots? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You wore them a lot? 21 A. In more recent years, yes. 22 Q. We'll talk about that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013729 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 138 of 267 2166 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Right. 2 Q. So you went shopping at the store, you went and bought cowboy boots, and then you went horseback riding? 3 A. Right. 4 Q. For a significant amount of time? 5 A. That's what this says, yes. 6 Q. And you needed the cowboy boots to go horseback riding -- 7 A. Horseback riding -- 8 Q. Right -- 9 A. I mean, you can go horseback riding without cowboy boots, 10 but I'm sure that was the purpose, yes. 11 Q. I want to talk about the boots a little bit more. You said Epstein bought you those boots; correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. And you kept the boots; right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You kept them for 25 years? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Quarter of a century; right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you chose to wear the boots? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You wore them a lot? 22 A. In more recent years, yes. 23 Q. We'll talk about that. 24 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016354 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 139 of 267 2167 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 At some point in the course of this case, you handed those boots over to the government; correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. That actually happened earlier this year? 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. The FBI agent came to your house and picked up the boots from you there in Texas; right? 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. That was in or about June 29th? 8 A. Yes. 9 MS. MENNINGER: I would like to have the witness identify what we would mark for identification as AF9. I believe an agent or detective has those boots. If they could be handed to the witness. 10 THE COURT: Showing the witness what's been marked for identification as AF9. 11 MS. MENNINGER: May I approach the witness, your Honor? 12 THE COURT: You may. 13 BY MS. MENNINGER: 14 Q. Ms. Farmer, do you know what's in the bag? 15 A. I do. 16 Q. What is it? 17 A. Cowboy boots. 18 Q. Are those the boots that Mr. Epstein bought you? 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013730 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 139 of 267 2167 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 At some point in the course of this case, you handed those boots over to the government; correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. That actually happened earlier this year? 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. The FBI agent came to your house and picked up the boots from you there in Texas; right? 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. That was in or about June 29th? 8 A. Yes. 9 MS. MENNINGER: I would like to have the witness identify what we would mark for identification as AF9. I believe an agent or detective has those boots. If they could be handed to the witness. 10 THE COURT: Showing the witness what's been marked for identification as AF9. 11 MS. MENNINGER: May I approach the witness, your Honor? 12 THE COURT: You may. 13 BY MS. MENNINGER: 14 Q. Ms. Farmer, do you know what's in the bag? 15 A. I do. 16 Q. What is it? 17 A. Cowboy boots. 18 Q. Are those the boots that Mr. Epstein bought you? 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016355 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 140 of 267 2168 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Could you remove them from the bag, please. 3 THE COURT: Are you moving them? 4 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. May I move for the admission of AF9? 5 6 MS. POMERANTZ: No objection. 7 THE COURT: AF9 are admitted. 8 (Defendant's Exhibit AF9 received in evidence) 9 Q. So those boots are in your size; right? 10 A. I think they're a little smaller than my current size, but yes. 11 12 Q. And those are the same boots that you recall having been purchased in 1996; right? 13 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And fair to say that the heels are worn down on the boots? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. Fair to say that the toes of the boots are pretty well scuffed; right? 18 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And the leather looks like it's been worn a couple times; right? 21 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Now, you testified on direct that you reclaimed the boots; right? 24 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013731 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 140 of 267 2168 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Could you remove them from the bag, please. 3 THE COURT: Are you moving them? 4 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. May I move for the admission of AF9? 5 6 MS. POMERANTZ: No objection. 7 THE COURT: AF9 are admitted. 8 (Defendant's Exhibit AF9 received in evidence) 9 Q. So those boots are in your size; right? 10 A. I think they're a little smaller than my current size, but yes. 11 12 Q. And those are the same boots that you recall having been purchased in 1996; right? 13 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And fair to say that the heels are worn down on the boots? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. Fair to say that the toes of the boots are pretty well scuffed; right? 18 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And the leather looks like it's been worn a couple times; right? 21 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Now, you testified on direct that you reclaimed the boots; right? 24 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016356 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 141 of 267 2169 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. And you said that you reclaimed them after the government and you spoke in 2006? 2 A. That's right. 3 Q. So in 2006, you knew that the boots were evidence of your interactions with Mr. Epstein; right? 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. And the government didn't ask you for them then? 6 A. They asked if I had them. 7 Q. And what did you tell them? 8 A. I wasn't sure. 9 Q. And you later found them? 10 A. I did. 11 Q. And you did not send them to the FBI when you found them; right? 12 A. No. At the time I had them, it didn't seem there was further -- the case did not seem to be developing. 13 Q. So you did not -- 14 A. I did not send them to them. 15 Q. And you chose to wear the evidence of your contact with Mr. Epstein; right? 16 A. I did. 17 Q. And the first time you've told anyone about this reclaiming of the boots is in court today; correct? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Well, you've met with the government, I think you said five SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013732 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 141 of 267 2169 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. And you said that you reclaimed them after the government and you spoke in 2006? 2 A. That's right. 3 Q. So in 2006, you knew that the boots were evidence of your interactions with Mr. Epstein; right? 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. And the government didn't ask you for them then? 6 A. They asked if I had them. 7 Q. And what did you tell them? 8 A. I wasn't sure. 9 Q. And you later found them? 10 A. I did. 11 Q. And you did not send them to the FBI when you found them; right? 12 A. No. At the time I had them, it didn't seem there was further -- the case did not seem to be developing. 13 Q. So you did not -- 14 A. I did not send them to them. 15 Q. And you chose to wear the evidence of your contact with Mr. Epstein; right? 16 A. I did. 17 Q. And the first time you've told anyone about this reclaiming of the boots is in court today; correct? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Well, you've met with the government, I think you said five SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016357 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 142 of 267 2170 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 or six times; right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And you've never told the government that you reclaimed the boots by wearing them after 2006; right? 4 5 A. I believe that we have spoken about that. I mean -- I don't know if I used the term "reclaim," but that I explained why they were not used previously and then I did wear them. 6 7 MS. MENNINGER: I'll raise this under Rule 16 later, your Honor. 8 9 Q. So you believe you've told that to the government? 10 11 A. I believe that I -- that part that I just said, yes, that I did not wear the boots and then I did wear the boots. 12 13 Q. And you wore them a lot? 14 A. I mean, because that's the general term. I didn't wear them to work or things, but I did wear them when I would go two-stepping. 15 16 Q. So you went dancing in the boots that Mr. Epstein bought for you? 17 18 A. That's correct. 19 20 Q. To the point where the heels are worn down and the toes are scuffed; right? 21 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You can put that back in the bag. If it's in your way, I can come move it. If it's okay up -- 24 25 A. No, it's -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013733 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 142 of 267 2170 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 or six times; right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And you've never told the government that you reclaimed the boots by wearing them after 2006; right? 4 A. I believe that we have spoken about that. I mean -- I don't know if I used the term "reclaim," but that I explained why they were not used previously and then I did wear them. 8 MS. MENNINGER: I'll raise this under Rule 16 later, your Honor. 10 Q. So you believe you've told that to the government? 11 A. I believe that I -- that part that I just said, yes, that I did not wear the boots and then I did wear the boots. 13 Q. And you wore them a lot? 14 A. I mean, because that's the general term. I didn't wear them to work or things, but I did wear them when I would go two-stepping. 17 Q. So you went dancing in the boots that Mr. Epstein bought for you? 18 A. That's correct. 20 Q. To the point where the heels are worn down and the toes are scuffed; right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You can put that back in the bag. If it's in your way, I can come move it. If it's okay up -- 25 A. No, it's -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016358 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 143 of 267 2171 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. Thank you. We talked a little bit about this conversation you had with the agents in 2006, and I believe you testified that you recall having Christmas lights up? 2 A. I said holiday decorations. I was selling some holiday products and I remember having them out when the agents came. 3 MS. MENNINGER: Just one moment. Your Honor, after the government has had a chance to look at it, I would like to show the witness what's been marked as AF10. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 MS. MENNINGER: Has the government had a chance? 6 MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor, and we object to this. 7 THE COURT: I'll hear from you. 8 (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013734 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 143 of 267 2171 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. Thank you. We talked a little bit about this conversation you had with the agents in 2006, and I believe you testified that you recall having Christmas lights up? 2 A. I said holiday decorations. I was selling some holiday 3 products and I remember having them out when the agents came. 4 MS. MENNINGER: Just one moment. Your Honor, after 5 the government has had a chance to look at it, I would like to 6 show the witness what's been marked as AF10. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 MS. MENNINGER: Has the government had a chance? 9 MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor, and we object to 10 this. 11 THE COURT: I'll hear from you. 12 (Continued on next page) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016359 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 144 of 267 2172 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 (At the sidebar) 2 THE COURT: I think what I'm looking at is an email 3 from August of 2019, in which she recounts to the New York 4 Times reporter that she thinks when they came - meaning the FBI 5 agents - it was in spring-summer of 2007. Grounds. 6 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, this is a collateral 7 matter. She's been testifying about the interview itself, but 8 there is no grounds to bring in extrinsic evidence on this 9 matter with the date of the interview itself. 10 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, my point is simply that 11 she refreshed her memory about when the meeting was by talking 12 to her husband and thinking about other points, like it was hot 13 and sunny. She did testify that it was -- 14 THE COURT: But what's in issue is her memory of when 15 she met with the FBI agents? What does that matter? 16 MS. MENNINGER: It's her memories now of things that 17 she -- yes, about things that happened a decade ago, which, by 18 inference, goes to the strength of her memory about things that 19 happened in '96. 20 THE COURT: So the theory is anything testing her 21 memory from years ago is relevant. 22 MS. MENNINGER: I wouldn't go that far, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: This is two steps removed and I'll 24 sustain. 25 (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013735 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 144 of 267 2172 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 (At the sidebar) 2 THE COURT: I think what I'm looking at is an email 3 from August of 2019, in which she recounts to the New York 4 Times reporter that she thinks when they came - meaning the FBI 5 agents - it was in spring-summer of 2007. Grounds. 6 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, this is a collateral 7 matter. She's been testifying about the interview itself, but 8 there is no grounds to bring in extrinsic evidence on this 9 matter with the date of the interview itself. 10 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, my point is simply that 11 she refreshed her memory about when the meeting was by talking 12 to her husband and thinking about other points, like it was hot 13 and sunny. She did testify that it was -- 14 THE COURT: But what's in issue is her memory of when 15 she met with the FBI agents? What does that matter? 16 MS. MENNINGER: It's her memories now of things that 17 she -- yes, about things that happened a decade ago, which, by 18 inference, goes to the strength of her memory about things that 19 happened in '96. 20 THE COURT: So the theory is anything testing her 21 memory from years ago is relevant. 22 MS. MENNINGER: I wouldn't go that far, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: This is two steps removed and I'll 24 sustain. 25 (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016360 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 145 of 267 2173 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Sustained, 401 and 403. Go ahead. 3 BY MS. MENNINGER: 4 Q. I want to talk about the incident in the movie theater in New Mexico. 5 6 A. Okay. 7 Q. You testified that Epstein held your hand in the movie theater in New Mexico; right? 8 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. And it was, in your words, more blatant than in New York? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. You don't actually know that Ghislaine Maxwell saw Epstein holding your hand; correct? 13 14 A. I don't. 15 Q. You just said she was present on the other side of him? 16 A. That's right. 17 Q. And afterwards, she didn't say anything to you about it; right? 18 19 A. She did not. 20 Q. She did not say, hey, were you holding his hand or anything like that? 21 22 A. No. 23 Q. In the movie theater, there was no touching of your breasts? 24 25 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013736 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 145 of 267 2173 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Sustained, 401 and 403. Go ahead. 3 BY MS. MENNINGER: 4 Q. I want to talk about the incident in the movie theater in New Mexico. 5 6 A. Okay. 7 Q. You testified that Epstein held your hand in the movie theater in New Mexico; right? 8 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. And it was, in your words, more blatant than in New York? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. You don't actually know that Ghislaine Maxwell saw Epstein holding your hand; correct? 13 14 A. I don't. 15 Q. You just said she was present on the other side of him? 16 A. That's right. 17 Q. And afterwards, she didn't say anything to you about it; right? 18 19 A. She did not. 20 Q. She did not say, hey, were you holding his hand or anything like that? 21 22 A. No. 23 Q. In the movie theater, there was no touching of your breasts? 24 25 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016361 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 146 of 267 2174 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. There was no touching of your genitalia or private parts? 2 A. No. 3 Q. I want to talk to you about the foot massage that you 4 described on direct. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You said that Ms. Maxwell -- Ghislaine was massaging one of 7 Jeffrey's feet; correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. And she gave you instructions on how to massage the other 10 foot; right? 11 A. That's right. 12 Q. And at the time, you do not remember the specifics of what 13 Epstein was saying during the foot massage; right? 14 A. No, I don't. 15 Q. You don't remember it going beyond the massaging of his 16 foot; right? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. And you do not remember the foot massage being sexualized; 19 right? 20 A. I guess I would consider all of that sexualized. I 21 don't -- it was not -- they were not touching my private body 22 parts and I was not touching his. 23 MS. MENNINGER: If I could have the witness look at 24 3514-12. I'll just show the first page to orient you in the 25 upper right-hand corner. This is an interview in May -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013737 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 146 of 267 2174 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. There was no touching of your genitalia or private parts? 2 A. No. 3 Q. I want to talk to you about the foot massage that you 4 described on direct. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You said that Ms. Maxwell -- Ghislaine was massaging one of 7 Jeffrey's feet; correct? 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. And she gave you instructions on how to massage the other 10 foot; right? 11 A. That's right. 12 Q. And at the time, you do not remember the specifics of what 13 Epstein was saying during the foot massage; right? 14 A. No, I don't. 15 Q. You don't remember it going beyond the massaging of his 16 foot; right? 17 A. Correct. 18 Q. And you do not remember the foot massage being sexualized; 19 right? 20 A. I guess I would consider all of that sexualized. I 21 don't -- it was not -- they were not touching my private body 22 parts and I was not touching his. 23 MS. MENNINGER: If I could have the witness look at 24 3514-12. I'll just show the first page to orient you in the 25 upper right-hand corner. This is an interview in May -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016362 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 147 of 267 2175 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 2 MS. MENNINGER: I don't know how to orient the witness 3 to the time, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: I'll allow you to -- it's been expanded 5 now, so she can look at the document. 6 BY MS. MENNINGER: 7 Q. You recall speaking to the government in May of 2020; 8 right? 9 A. Right. Yes. 10 Q. May 9th of 2020; right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you were there with some prosecutors and FBI agents; 13 right? 14 A. Don't remember if this was in person or over the phone, but 15 I remember having a communication, yes. 16 Q. And your attorney, Ms. McCauley, was also there? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. If I could direct your attention to the second page, there 19 is a section three-quarters of the way down, a paragraph. If 20 we can call out that section that has a label. 21 If I can have you take a look at these notes. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What you told the government on that occasion is you do not 24 remember it, meaning the foot massage, being sexualized; 25 correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013738 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 147 of 267 2175 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 2 MS. MENNINGER: I don't know how to orient the witness 3 to the time, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: I'll allow you to -- it's been expanded 5 now, so she can look at the document. 6 BY MS. MENNINGER: 7 Q. You recall speaking to the government in May of 2020; 8 right? 9 A. Right. Yes. 10 Q. May 9th of 2020; right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you were there with some prosecutors and FBI agents; 13 right? 14 A. Don't remember if this was in person or over the phone, but 15 I remember having a communication, yes. 16 Q. And your attorney, Ms. McCauley, was also there? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. If I could direct your attention to the second page, there 19 is a section three-quarters of the way down, a paragraph. If 20 we can call out that section that has a label. 21 If I can have you take a look at these notes. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What you told the government on that occasion is you do not 24 remember it, meaning the foot massage, being sexualized; 25 correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016363 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 148 of 267 2176 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. I see that that is the note, that that's how it was described. I would say, just as what I said a minute ago, is that, in my mind, all of this was sexualized to some degree, but it did not go to touching my private body parts or me touching his. 6 O. Ms. Farmer, what you told the government is you do not remember the foot massage being sexualized. Yes or no? 8 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. Asked and answered. 9 THE COURT: Sustained. 10 MS. MENNINGER: I don't think I got an answer to the yes or no. 11 12 THE COURT: You did, and then the witness elaborated, and that's permissible, and the question has been asked and answered. So, next question. 15 Q. The notes say you do not remember -- 16 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 Q. You said a minute ago that the notes say you do not remember it being sexualized? 20 THE COURT: Sustained. 21 Q. You also do not remember the specifics of what Mr. Epstein was saying during the foot massage; correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. And that was in May of 2020; right? 25 A. Right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013739 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 148 of 267 2176 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. I see that that is the note, that that's how it was described. I would say, just as what I said a minute ago, is that, in my mind, all of this was sexualized to some degree, but it did not go to touching my private body parts or me touching his. 6 O. Ms. Farmer, what you told the government is you do not remember the foot massage being sexualized. Yes or no? 8 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. Asked and answered. 9 THE COURT: Sustained. 10 MS. MENNINGER: I don't think I got an answer to the yes or no. 11 12 THE COURT: You did, and then the witness elaborated, and that's permissible, and the question has been asked and answered. So, next question. 14 15 Q. The notes say you do not remember -- 16 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 Q. You said a minute ago that the notes say you do not remember it being sexualized? 20 THE COURT: Sustained. 21 Q. You also do not remember the specifics of what Mr. Epstein was saying during the foot massage; correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. And that was in May of 2020; right? 25 A. Right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016364 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 149 of 267 2177 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. I want to talk about the full body massage that you described. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You testified on direct that you had nothing on during that massage? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. I want to direct your attention to what's been marked as 6 AF8. 7 THE COURT: The government has it? 8 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, we spoke about it earlier in this 9 cross examination, your Honor. 10 I gave it to you earlier in the cross examination. 11 (Continued on next page) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013740 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 149 of 267 2177 LCACmax5 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. I want to talk about the full body massage that you described. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You testified on direct that you had nothing on during that massage? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. I want to direct your attention to what's been marked as 6 AF8. 7 THE COURT: The government has it? 8 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, we spoke about it earlier in this 9 cross examination, your Honor. 10 I gave it to you earlier in the cross examination. 11 (Continued on next page) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016365 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 150 of 267 2178 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 BY MS. MENNINGER: 2 Q. If I could direct your attention to the paragraph that's third from the bottom, begins with I. 3 4 A. Yes. 5 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, objection. 6 This is not inconsistent. 7 MS. MENNINGER: What? I can't hear. 8 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 9 THE COURT: All right. Just a minute. 10 Let me read it. 11 Sustained. 12 MS. MENNINGER: I did not hear the basis for the 13 objection, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Not a prior inconsistent statement. I've 15 ruled, Ms. Menninger. Sustained. 16 MS. MENNINGER: I'm not allowed to ask about this 17 document at all? 18 THE COURT: You can ask the next question, but what 19 you just drew to I've sustained. 20 BY MS. MENNINGER: 21 Q. I draw your attention to the second paragraph from the top. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And while you testified on direct that you had nothing on 24 during the massage, what you told Mr. Baker from The New York 25 Times -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 150 of 267 2178 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 BY MS. MENNINGER: 2 Q. If I could direct your attention to the paragraph that's third from the bottom, begins with I. 3 4 A. Yes. 5 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, objection. 6 This is not inconsistent. 7 MS. MENNINGER: What? I can't hear. 8 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 9 THE COURT: All right. Just a minute. 10 Let me read it. 11 Sustained. 12 MS. MENNINGER: I did not hear the basis for the 13 objection, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Not a prior inconsistent statement. I've 15 ruled, Ms. Menninger. Sustained. 16 MS. MENNINGER: I'm not allowed to ask about this 17 document at all? 18 THE COURT: You can ask the next question, but what 19 you just drew to I've sustained. 20 BY MS. MENNINGER: 21 Q. I draw your attention to the second paragraph from the top. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And while you testified on direct that you had nothing on 24 during the massage, what you told Mr. Baker from The New York 25 Times -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016366 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 151 of 267 2179 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Just a moment. 3 Q. -- is that -- 4 THE COURT: Just a moment, please. There's an objection. You'll pause until I rule. Did you not hear it? 5 6 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor -- 7 THE COURT: Did you not hear it? 8 MS. MENNINGER: I did not hear the objection. I'm sorry, I can't hear from in here. 9 10 THE COURT: I understand. We'll make sure -- 11 Ms. Pomerantz, you'll speak loudly into the mic because it is difficult to hear in the box, all right? 12 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Thank you. 15 All right. I will overrule. 16 You may ask your question. 17 BY MS. MENNINGER: 18 Q. What you told Mr. Baker from The New York Times in August 2019 is that you were not wearing a bra during the massage, that is clear in your memory; correct? 19 20 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And what was not clear in your memory in August of 2019 is whether you had your underwear on; correct? 23 24 A. What I remember saying is that she asked me to undress and -- 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013742 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 151 of 267 2179 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Just a moment. 3 Q. -- is that -- 4 THE COURT: Just a moment, please. There's an 5 objection. You'll pause until I rule. Did you not hear it? 6 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor -- 7 THE COURT: Did you not hear it? 8 MS. MENNINGER: I did not hear the objection. I'm 9 sorry, I can't hear from in here. 10 THE COURT: I understand. We'll make sure -- 11 Ms. Pomerantz, you'll speak loudly into the mic because it is 12 difficult to hear in the box, all right? 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Thank you. 15 All right. I will overrule. 16 You may ask your question. 17 BY MS. MENNINGER: 18 Q. What you told Mr. Baker from The New York Times in August 19 2019 is that you were not wearing a bra during the massage, 20 that is clear in your memory; correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And what was not clear in your memory in August of 2019 is 23 whether you had your underwear on; correct? 24 A. What I remember saying is that she asked me to undress 25 and -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016367 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 152 of 267 2180 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. I'm asking you about the 29th. 2 THE COURT: You may answer. 3 A. That's the conversation I remember having with Mike Baker, 4 is saying that Maxwell asked me to undress, and I did so. And 5 I remember very clearly -- because the part of my body that was 6 exposed during the massage was my breast. That was very clear 7 in my memory that that was exposed. 8 Q. You were not clear in your memory whether you had your 9 underwear on; correct? 10 A. I was not clear. You're saying in 2019, when I spoke with 11 Mike Baker, I was not clear in my memory if I had my underwear 12 on. I said that I remember her asking me to undress. I don't 13 remember her saying whether or not I could leave my underwear 14 on. And but I do remember for sure that my breasts were 15 exposed. 16 Q. When you spoke to Mike Baker, you told him you were unsure 17 if you had your underwear on; correct? 18 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Just a moment. 20 Overruled. I'll allow the question. You may answer. 21 A. Okay. Sorry, can you say it one more time? 22 Q. When you spoke with Mike Baker of The New York Times, you 23 said that you were unsure if you had your underwear on during 24 the massage; correct? 25 A. Yes, I said that this -- I remember very clearly part of my SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013743 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 152 of 267 2180 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. I'm asking you about the 29th. 2 THE COURT: You may answer. 3 A. That's the conversation I remember having with Mike Baker, 4 is saying that Maxwell asked me to undress, and I did so. And 5 I remember very clearly -- because the part of my body that was 6 exposed during the massage was my breast. That was very clear 7 in my memory that that was exposed. 8 Q. You were not clear in your memory whether you had your 9 underwear on; correct? 10 A. I was not clear. You're saying in 2019, when I spoke with 11 Mike Baker, I was not clear in my memory if I had my underwear 12 on. I said that I remember her asking me to undress. I don't 13 remember her saying whether or not I could leave my underwear 14 on. And but I do remember for sure that my breasts were 15 exposed. 16 Q. When you spoke to Mike Baker, you told him you were unsure 17 if you had your underwear on; correct? 18 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Just a moment. 20 Overruled. I'll allow the question. You may answer. 21 A. Okay. Sorry, can you say it one more time? 22 Q. When you spoke with Mike Baker of The New York Times, you 23 said that you were unsure if you had your underwear on during 24 the massage; correct? 25 A. Yes, I said that this -- I remember very clearly part of my SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016368 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 153 of 267 2181 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross body being exposed. And I don't remember 100 percent if my underwear was on; that my best recollection is that I was undressed. Q. And today you've testified that you had nothing on during the massage. A. That's correct. Q. So between 2019 and today, you now have a memory that you did not have your underwear on; correct? A. My best recollection, as I've said, is that I was undressed. When he asked me further, I tried to clarify to him that it was a very clear memory of me not having my top on; that the other part was not as clear because that part of my body was not exposed. Q. And you were clear you didn't have a bra on, that was clear in your memory? A. Yes. Q. That's what you told him? A. That is what I told him. Q. You've told this jury you didn't have your underwear on, right? MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. You testified on direct that Ghislaine massaged your chest and upper breast; correct? A. That's correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013744 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 153 of 267 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 body being exposed. And I don't remember 100 percent if my underwear was on; that my best recollection is that I was undressed. 2 3 4 Q. And today you've testified that you had nothing on during the massage. 5 6 A. That's correct. 7 8 Q. So between 2019 and today, you now have a memory that you did not have your underwear on; correct? 9 10 A. My best recollection, as I've said, is that I was undressed. When he asked me further, I tried to clarify to him that it was a very clear memory of me not having my top on; that the other part was not as clear because that part of my body was not exposed. 11 12 13 14 Q. And you were clear you didn't have a bra on, that was clear in your memory? 15 16 A. Yes. 17 18 Q. That's what you told him? A. That is what I told him. 19 20 Q. You've told this jury you didn't have your underwear on, right? 21 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 24 Q. You testified on direct that Ghislaine massaged your chest and upper breast; correct? 25 A. That's correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016369 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 154 of 267 2182 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. In the area of your pectoral muscles; correct? 2 A. Yeah, I guess that's all part of the breast, right? 3 Q. Ghislaine did not touch your nipples? 4 A. She did not touch my nipples. 5 Q. She did not touch your nipple area, right? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. She did not massage that part of your breast; correct? 8 A. Yes, that's correct. 9 Q. And the part that she massaged is the part that was exposed; correct? 10 A. My entire breast was exposed. 11 Q. You don't have a journal entry about that; correct? 12 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 Q. You have no written recollection of what happened in the massage at all; correct? 15 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 16 THE COURT: Asked and answered. Sustained. 17 Q. When you think back on this massage, you do not believe it was explicitly sexual; correct? 18 A. That's not correct. 19 MS. MENNINGER: I'd like to draw the witness's attention to 3514-12, page 4. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MS. MENNINGER: I'm sorry, page 3. 22 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 23 DOJ-OGR-00013745 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 154 of 267 2182 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. In the area of your pectoral muscles; correct? 2 A. Yeah, I guess that's all part of the breast, right? 3 Q. Ghislaine did not touch your nipples? 4 A. She did not touch my nipples. 5 Q. She did not touch your nipple area, right? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. She did not massage that part of your breast; correct? 8 A. Yes, that's correct. 9 Q. And the part that she massaged is the part that was exposed; correct? 10 A. My entire breast was exposed. 11 Q. You don't have a journal entry about that; correct? 12 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 Q. You have no written recollection of what happened in the massage at all; correct? 15 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 16 THE COURT: Asked and answered. Sustained. 17 Q. When you think back on this massage, you do not believe it was explicitly sexual; correct? 18 A. That's not correct. 19 MS. MENNINGER: I'd like to draw the witness's attention to 3514-12, page 4. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MS. MENNINGER: I'm sorry, page 3. 22 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 23 DOJ-OGR-00016370 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 155 of 267 2183 LCAVMAX6 1 A. Farmer - cross 2 THE COURT: Where are we looking? 3 MS. MENNINGER: The bottom third of the page, I think. 4 If we could call that out and expand it for everyone's benefit. 5 Q. You recall speaking with the government and the agents on May 9th of 2020, right, Ms. Farmer? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you described for them this massage that you're talking about now, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And what you told the agents and the government in May of 2020 is that the body massage was awkward and uncomfortable, but not explicitly sexual; correct? 10 A. I don't believe those are my words; I think that's what's noted here. It says no touching of nipples, genitals, etc., and I did clarify that, but that did not happen. 11 Q. "Not explicitly sexual" is what you said; correct? 12 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 Q. Is it your belief that the prosecutor wrote that down wrong in May of -- 15 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 Q. You talked about during this massage you had a sense that Epstein would be able to see you; correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 20 DOJ-OGR-00013746 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 155 of 267 2183 LCAVMAX6 1 A. Farmer - cross 2 THE COURT: Where are we looking? 3 MS. MENNINGER: The bottom third of the page, I think. 4 If we could call that out and expand it for everyone's benefit. 5 Q. You recall speaking with the government and the agents on May 9th of 2020, right, Ms. Farmer? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you described for them this massage that you're talking about now, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And what you told the agents and the government in May of 2020 is that the body massage was awkward and uncomfortable, but not explicitly sexual; correct? 10 A. I don't believe those are my words; I think that's what's noted here. It says no touching of nipples, genitals, etc., and I did clarify that, but that did not happen. 11 Q. "Not explicitly sexual" is what you said; correct? 12 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 Q. Is it your belief that the prosecutor wrote that down wrong in May of -- 15 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 Q. You talked about during this massage you had a sense that Epstein would be able to see you; correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 20 DOJ-OGR-00016371 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 156 of 267 2184 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. That you have no memory of him seeing you, right? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. He was not in the room for this massage, right? 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. I want to talk to you about what you said happened in the 6 bed the next morning or something. Is that the right time 7 frame, the next morning? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. You said that Epstein entered your room; correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Ghislaine Maxwell did not enter your room? 12 A. She did not. 13 Q. She was not in there the whole time this happened, right? 14 A. She was not in there. 15 Q. After it happened, you got up and went to the bathroom and 16 stayed in the bathroom awhile, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Before you went to the bathroom, Epstein laid on the bed 19 with you right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You were not sure whether he was over the covers or under 22 the covers, right? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. He kind of had his arms around you, right? 25 A. Yeah. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013747 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 156 of 267 2184 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. That you have no memory of him seeing you, right? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. He was not in the room for this massage, right? 4 A. That's right. 5 Q. I want to talk to you about what you said happened in the 6 bed the next morning or something. Is that the right time 7 frame, the next morning? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. You said that Epstein entered your room; correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Ghislaine Maxwell did not enter your room? 12 A. She did not. 13 Q. She was not in there the whole time this happened, right? 14 A. She was not in there. 15 Q. After it happened, you got up and went to the bathroom and 16 stayed in the bathroom awhile, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Before you went to the bathroom, Epstein laid on the bed 19 with you right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You were not sure whether he was over the covers or under 22 the covers, right? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. He kind of had his arms around you, right? 25 A. Yeah. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016372 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 157 of 267 2185 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. And you do not recall this being a sexual touch either; correct? 2 A. No, I would not characterize it that way. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Again, he did not touch specifically my sexual body parts in that -- in that experience. 5 Q. Okay. On May 9th of 2020, you told the prosecutors and the government regarding this incident in the bed that you do not remember this being a sexual touch; correct? 6 A. Am I just to be looking at -- oh, sorry. 7 Q. Did you tell the government that on May 9th of 2020? 8 A. I don't recall saying that. 9 Q. You do recall telling them that he did not grab your breasts? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And didn't touch your breasts? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Correct? 14 Did not grab or touch your genitals; correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. You testified on direct that he pressed his body into you; is that right? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. You did not feel an erect penis in your back? 19 A. I did not -- I do not -- I couldn't say whether he had an SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013748 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 157 of 267 2185 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. And you do not recall this being a sexual touch either; correct? 2 A. No, I would not characterize it that way. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Again, he did not touch specifically my sexual body parts in that -- in that experience. 5 Q. Okay. On May 9th of 2020, you told the prosecutors and the government regarding this incident in the bed that you do not remember this being a sexual touch; correct? 6 A. Am I just to be looking at -- oh, sorry. 7 Q. Did you tell the government that on May 9th of 2020? 8 A. I don't recall saying that. 9 Q. You do recall telling them that he did not grab your breasts? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And didn't touch your breasts? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Correct? 14 Did not grab or touch your genitals; correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. You testified on direct that he pressed his body into you; is that right? 17 A. That's right. 18 Q. You did not feel an erect penis in your back? 19 A. I did not -- I do not -- I couldn't say whether he had an SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016373 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 158 of 267 2186 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 erect penis; correct. 2 Q. You do not recall him pressing an erect penis into your 3 back; correct? 4 A. Yeah, I recall him pressing his body. I do not recall an 5 erect penis. 6 Q. And you told the government in May of 2020 that you do not 7 recall a penis being pushed into your back; correct? 8 A. An erect penis, I don't recall those words. 9 MS. MENNINGER: Okay. If I could have the witness 10 look at 3514-012 at page 4. And if we could highlight the 11 first, sort of, half of the page. 12 Q. If I could have you take a look at this, Ms. Farmer. 13 A. Yes. 14 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, objection. 15 This is not inconsistent. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 Q. You told the government that you did not feel an erect 18 penis in your back; correct? 19 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Asked and answered. Sustained. 21 Q. After you returned from New Mexico, you told your mother 22 you were "not raped"; correct? 23 A. When I returned from New Mexico? 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. When I returned from the trip to Thailand. We didn't talk SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013749 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 158 of 267 2186 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 erect penis; correct. 2 Q. You do not recall him pressing an erect penis into your back; correct? 3 A. Yeah, I recall him pressing his body. I do not recall an erect penis. 4 Q. And you told the government in May of 2020 that you do not recall a penis being pushed into your back; correct? 5 A. An erect penis, I don't recall those words. 6 MS. MENNINGER: Okay. If I could have the witness look at 3514-012 at page 4. And if we could highlight the first, sort of, half of the page. 7 Q. If I could have you take a look at this, Ms. Farmer. 8 A. Yes. 9 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, objection. 10 This is not inconsistent. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. 12 Q. You told the government that you did not feel an erect penis in your back; correct? 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Asked and answered. Sustained. 15 Q. After you returned from New Mexico, you told your mother you were "not raped"; correct? 16 A. When I returned from New Mexico? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. When I returned from the trip to Thailand. We didn't talk SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016374 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 159 of 267 2187 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 about it when I returned from New Mexico. 2 Q. When you got back from Thailand, you said you were not raped? 3 A. That's right. 4 Q. You were not sexually abused? 5 A. I said I was not raped. 6 Q. And you meant you were not sexually abused; correct? 7 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Overruled. 9 A. I think those are two different things. 10 Q. You spoke to the government on May 9th of 2020, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And I want to jump ahead about a month from that. In late 13 June of 2020, the Epstein Victims Compensation Fund opened, right? 14 A. I don't remember when it opened, but yes. 15 MS. MENNINGER: Okay. I'd like to have the witness look at AF-12. 16 THE COURT: The government has it? 17 MS. MENNINGER: I will get them a copy, your Honor. I believe they do, but I'll give them a copy. 18 If I could have the witness take a look at the first paragraph of text and just tell me if that refreshes your memory about when the Epstein Victims Compensation Program opened. 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 20 DOJ-OGR-00013750 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 159 of 267 2187 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross about it when I returned from New Mexico. Q. When you got back from Thailand, you said you were not raped? A. That's right. Q. You were not sexually abused? A. I said I was not raped. Q. And you meant you were not sexually abused; correct? MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. A. I think those are two different things. Q. You spoke to the government on May 9th of 2020, right? A. Yes. Q. And I want to jump ahead about a month from that. In late June of 2020, the Epstein Victims Compensation Fund opened, right? A. I don't remember when it opened, but yes. MS. MENNINGER: Okay. I'd like to have the witness look at AF-12. THE COURT: The government has it? MS. MENNINGER: I will get them a copy, your Honor. I believe they do, but I'll give them a copy. If I could have the witness take a look at the first paragraph of text and just tell me if that refreshes your memory about when the Epstein Victims Compensation Program opened. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016375 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 160 of 267 2188 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. It says June 25th. 2 Q. June 25th of 2020? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. So about a month after you spoke with the government, right? 5 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. And you, yourself -- 8 MS. MENNINGER: We can take that down now, Ms. Lundberg. 9 10 Q. You, yourself submitted a claim to the Epstein Victims Compensation Program? 11 12 A. Yes, my attorneys submitted a claim for me. 13 Q. And you submitted your claim on the very next day, June 14 26th of 2020; correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Your submission was substantial, 3,000 pages or so; correct? 17 18 A. I haven't seen the full submission. 19 Q. Okay. 20 MS. MENNINGER: If I could have the witness take a 21 look at AF-13. And I will give a copy to the government. 22 I would like to draw the witness's attention to page 23 12 to 13 of this document. 24 Q. Do you recognize it, I guess, as an initial matter? 25 A. Oh, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013751 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 160 of 267 2188 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. It says June 25th. 2 Q. June 25th of 2020? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. So about a month after you spoke with the government, right? 5 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. And you, yourself -- 8 MS. MENNINGER: We can take that down now, Ms. Lundberg. 9 10 Q. You, yourself submitted a claim to the Epstein Victims Compensation Program? 11 12 A. Yes, my attorneys submitted a claim for me. 13 Q. And you submitted your claim on the very next day, June 14 26th of 2020; correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. Your submission was substantial, 3,000 pages or so; correct? 17 18 A. I haven't seen the full submission. 19 Q. Okay. 20 MS. MENNINGER: If I could have the witness take a 21 look at AF-13. And I will give a copy to the government. 22 I would like to draw the witness's attention to page 23 12 to 13 of this document. 24 Q. Do you recognize it, I guess, as an initial matter? 25 A. Oh, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016376 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 161 of 267 2189 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. And what do you recognize it to be? 2 A. This is a signature page, but just, I think, the 3 application for the program. 4 Q. Your application to the program? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. All right. And on page 12, do you recognize this as the 7 document that you initialed? 8 A. I do. 9 Q. And then if we can look at page 13, there is a signature 10 from you, is that -- 11 A. That's my signature, yes. 12 Q. Okay. And that the date of this submission was June 26th 13 of 2020; correct? 14 A. Correct. 15 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I would like to move for 16 the admission of pages 12 and 13 of this document. 17 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, no objection. I do want 18 to have to review it to see if any redactions are necessary. 19 THE COURT: Okay. I'll admit -- so let's see, this is 20 AF-12 -- I'm sorry, AF-13, pages 12 and 13 will be temporarily 21 submitted -- admitted under seal with an opportunity to 22 consider whether any redactions are necessary to protect the 23 privacy interests of a third party. 24 Is that the -- Ms. Pomerantz? 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013752 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 161 of 267 2189 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. And what do you recognize it to be? 2 A. This is a signature page, but just, I think, the 3 application for the program. 4 Q. Your application to the program? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. All right. And on page 12, do you recognize this as the 7 document that you initialed? 8 A. I do. 9 Q. And then if we can look at page 13, there is a signature 10 from you, is that -- 11 A. That's my signature, yes. 12 Q. Okay. And that the date of this submission was June 26th 13 of 2020; correct? 14 A. Correct. 15 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I would like to move for 16 the admission of pages 12 and 13 of this document. 17 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, no objection. I do want 18 to have to review it to see if any redactions are necessary. 19 THE COURT: Okay. I'll admit -- so let's see, this is 20 AF-12 -- I'm sorry, AF-13, pages 12 and 13 will be temporarily 21 submitted -- admitted under seal with an opportunity to 22 consider whether any redactions are necessary to protect the 23 privacy interests of a third party. 24 Is that the -- Ms. Pomerantz? 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016377 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 162 of 267 2190 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, there's no one's name. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MS. MENNINGER: I'd like to read from it because it's 4 now in evidence and there's no -- 5 THE COURT: All right. Give the government a minute 6 to review. Thank you. 7 MS. POMERANTZ: I think it's fine, your Honor. 8 Thank you. 9 THE COURT: All right. Then not sealed, admitted, 10 AF-12, pages 12 and 13. And you may publish if you like. 11 (Defendant's Exhibit AF-12 received in evidence) 12 MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor. 13 BY MS. MENNINGER: 14 Q. If I could start with page 12. Do you remember this 15 document, that you signed it -- 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. -- Ms. Farmer? 18 If I could draw your attention to the first italicized 19 paragraph, which is the second paragraph. I would like, if you 20 could, to read that paragraph to the jury. 21 A. I hereby certify that the information provided in this 22 claim form and any documents provided in support of this claim 23 are true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, and declare 24 under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and 25 correct. I understand that false statements or claims made in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013753 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 162 of 267 2190 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, there's no one's name. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MS. MENNINGER: I'd like to read from it because it's 4 now in evidence and there's no -- 5 THE COURT: All right. Give the government a minute 6 to review. Thank you. 7 MS. POMERANTZ: I think it's fine, your Honor. 8 Thank you. 9 THE COURT: All right. Then not sealed, admitted, 10 AF-12, pages 12 and 13. And you may publish if you like. 11 (Defendant's Exhibit AF-12 received in evidence) 12 MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor. 13 BY MS. MENNINGER: 14 Q. If I could start with page 12. Do you remember this 15 document, that you signed it -- 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. -- Ms. Farmer? 18 If I could draw your attention to the first italicized 19 paragraph, which is the second paragraph. I would like, if you 20 could, to read that paragraph to the jury. 21 A. I hereby certify that the information provided in this 22 claim form and any documents provided in support of this claim 23 are true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, and declare 24 under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and 25 correct. I understand that false statements or claims made in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016378 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 163 of 267 2191 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 connection with this claim may result in fines, imprisonment, 2 and/or any other remedy available by law; and that claims that 3 appear to be potentially fraudulent or to contain information 4 known to me to be false when made will be forwarded to federal, 5 state, and local law enforcement authorities for possible 6 investigation and prosecution. 7 Q. So you understood that you were signing this claim form 8 under penalties of perjury, right? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And if it was later determined that your claim was 11 potentially fraudulent, you could be referred for legal action, 12 right? 13 A. That -- yes. 14 Q. And if you testified as something differently today, then 15 your claim may be found potentially fraudulent; correct? 16 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 MS. MENNINGER: You can take this down for the moment. 19 Thank you. 20 Q. In the claim form, you were asked where any sexual abuse 21 occurred in support of your claim. Do you remember that 22 question? 23 A. No. Sorry. There's a lot of questions. 24 Q. That's all right. 25 MS. MENNINGER: If we could have the witness take a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013754 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 163 of 267 2191 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 connection with this claim may result in fines, imprisonment, 2 and/or any other remedy available by law; and that claims that 3 appear to be potentially fraudulent or to contain information 4 known to me to be false when made will be forwarded to federal, 5 state, and local law enforcement authorities for possible 6 investigation and prosecution. 7 Q. So you understood that you were signing this claim form 8 under penalties of perjury, right? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And if it was later determined that your claim was 11 potentially fraudulent, you could be referred for legal action, 12 right? 13 A. That -- yes. 14 Q. And if you testified as something differently today, then 15 your claim may be found potentially fraudulent; correct? 16 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 MS. MENNINGER: You can take this down for the moment. 19 Thank you. 20 Q. In the claim form, you were asked where any sexual abuse 21 occurred in support of your claim. Do you remember that 22 question? 23 A. No. Sorry. There's a lot of questions. 24 Q. That's all right. 25 MS. MENNINGER: If we could have the witness take a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016379 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 164 of 267 2192 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 look at -- it's that same document on page 3., and it's question 3. 2 3 A. I see. 4 Q. Okay. So you were asked in question 3 where -- to the best 5 of your ability, to locate the places where sexual abuse 6 occurred, right? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. And you understood to be answering this sexual abuse by 9 Jeffrey Epstein, right? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. And Ghislaine Maxwell, right? 12 A. Mm-hmm. 13 Q. And you told the -- we can take it down -- the victims' 14 compensation program that you were sexually abused in a movie 15 theater in New York, right? 16 A. The box for "New York" was checked. 17 MS. MENNINGER: I'm sorry, can we bring it back up. 18 Q. There is a box under question 3? 19 A. Yeah, that's what I was saying, yes, it says New York City 20 and New Mexico. 21 Q. And then there's a box below that. 22 A. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see that. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. Yes, yes. 25 MS. MENNINGER: So now you can take it down. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013755 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 164 of 267 2192 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 look at -- it's that same document on page 3., and it's question 3. 2 3 A. I see. 4 Q. Okay. So you were asked in question 3 where -- to the best 5 of your ability, to locate the places where sexual abuse 6 occurred, right? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. And you understood to be answering this sexual abuse by 9 Jeffrey Epstein, right? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. And Ghislaine Maxwell, right? 12 A. Mm-hmm. 13 Q. And you told the -- we can take it down -- the victims' 14 compensation program that you were sexually abused in a movie 15 theater in New York, right? 16 A. The box for "New York" was checked. 17 MS. MENNINGER: I'm sorry, can we bring it back up. 18 Q. There is a box under question 3? 19 A. Yeah, that's what I was saying, yes, it says New York City 20 and New Mexico. 21 Q. And then there's a box below that. 22 A. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see that. 23 Q. Okay. 24 A. Yes, yes. 25 MS. MENNINGER: So now you can take it down. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016380 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 165 of 267 2193 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. Unless you need to look at it further? 2 A. No, no, no. I just wanted to read the whole entire thing. 3 Q. Okay. So we can take it down. 4 So what you told the victims compensation fund is that 5 you were sexually abused in a movie theater in New York, right? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. And you were sexually abused in a movie theater in New Mexico? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. And both of those were related to the hand-holding 10 incidents that happened in those two locations, right? 11 A. Yeah, that was explained in the application. 12 Q. Hand-holding was sexual abuse? 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Just a moment. 15 Overruled. Go ahead. 16 A. My experience was detailed in the application, which 17 included, yes, him holding and caressing my hands. I did not 18 say anything else happened to me in the movie theater. 19 Q. You told the victims compensation fund that you were 20 sexually abused in a movie theater in New York; correct? 21 A. I think I answered that. Those were the boxes that are 22 checked, yes. And then that was a small field. And then later 23 on you describe what happened to you, and that's what I did. 24 Q. It wasn't just a box that was checked; you wrote in "movie 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013756 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 165 of 267 2193 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. Unless you need to look at it further? 2 A. No, no, no. I just wanted to read the whole entire thing. 3 Q. Okay. So we can take it down. 4 So what you told the victims compensation fund is that 5 you were sexually abused in a movie theater in New York, right? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. And you were sexually abused in a movie theater in New Mexico? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. And both of those were related to the hand-holding 10 incidents that happened in those two locations, right? 11 A. Yeah, that was explained in the application. 12 Q. Hand-holding was sexual abuse? 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Just a moment. 15 Overruled. Go ahead. 16 A. My experience was detailed in the application, which 17 included, yes, him holding and caressing my hands. I did not 18 say anything else happened to me in the movie theater. 19 Q. You told the victims compensation fund that you were 20 sexually abused in a movie theater in New York; correct? 21 A. I think I answered that. Those were the boxes that are 22 checked, yes. And then that was a small field. And then later 23 on you describe what happened to you, and that's what I did. 24 Q. It wasn't just a box that was checked; you wrote in "movie 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016381 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 166 of 267 2194 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 theater in New York," right? 2 A. That was written in on the form. 3 Q. And a movie theater in New Mexico, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And so those were both hand-holding incidents, right? 6 A. They were the incidents that I've already described where my leg and hand was caressed, yes. 7 Q. Right. You're not saying anyone touched your private parts? 8 A. No, I was very consistent with that. 9 Q. And it's important to you that you be consistent, right? 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 11 THE COURT: Overruled. 12 A. Of course. 13 Q. So you did, as you said, submit a longer detailed version of your claim to the fund, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. It wasn't just checking boxes? 16 A. Right, right, right. There was a narrative portion. 17 Q. Okay. And when you were describing the foot massage in the narrative program -- portion, excuse me, you told the victims compensation fund that Mr. Epstein kept staring at you and telling you how good the massage felt, right? 18 A. I -- I think that -- I mean -- I -- yes, I guess that is what I said. I don't remember using those words. I know I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013757 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 166 of 267 2194 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 theater in New York," right? 2 A. That was written in on the form. 3 Q. And a movie theater in New Mexico, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And so those were both hand-holding incidents, right? 6 A. They were the incidents that I've already described where my leg and hand was caressed, yes. 7 Q. Right. You're not saying anyone touched your private parts? 8 A. No, I was very consistent with that. 9 Q. And it's important to you that you be consistent, right? 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 11 THE COURT: Overruled. 12 A. Of course. 13 Q. So you did, as you said, submit a longer detailed version of your claim to the fund, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. It wasn't just checking boxes? 16 A. Right, right, right. There was a narrative portion. 17 Q. Okay. And when you were describing the foot massage in the narrative program -- portion, excuse me, you told the victims compensation fund that Mr. Epstein kept staring at you and telling you how good the massage felt, right? 18 A. I -- I think that -- I mean -- I -- yes, I guess that is what I said. I don't remember using those words. I know I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016382 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 167 of 267 2195 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 communicated to my attorneys and they typed it for me. 2 Q. Okay. If you would take a look at AF-13, page 22, second 3 full paragraph. And the second sentence from the bottom, does 4 that refresh your recollection about what you told the victims 5 compensation fund about the foot massage? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And what you told them is that Mr. Epstein kept staring at 8 you and telling you how good the massage felt, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you also told them that Mr. Epstein was groaning a lot 11 during the foot massage, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And that's not what you had told the government in May of 14 2020, right? 15 A. I don't know if they asked me questions about that in May 16 of 2020. 17 Q. You told them you don't remember it being sexualized, 18 right? 19 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Sustained. 21 Q. You also described for the victims compensation fund the 22 massage that you received in New Mexico; correct? Right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you've told the jury that the -- your chest and upper 25 breast were massaged during the massage; correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013758 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 167 of 267 2195 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 communicated to my attorneys and they typed it for me. 2 Q. Okay. If you would take a look at AF-13, page 22, second 3 full paragraph. And the second sentence from the bottom, does 4 that refresh your recollection about what you told the victims 5 compensation fund about the foot massage? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And what you told them is that Mr. Epstein kept staring at 8 you and telling you how good the massage felt, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you also told them that Mr. Epstein was groaning a lot 11 during the foot massage, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And that's not what you had told the government in May of 14 2020, right? 15 A. I don't know if they asked me questions about that in May 16 of 2020. 17 Q. You told them you don't remember it being sexualized, 18 right? 19 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Sustained. 21 Q. You also described for the victims compensation fund the 22 massage that you received in New Mexico; correct? Right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And you've told the jury that the -- your chest and upper 25 breast were massaged during the massage; correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 168 of 267 2196 L CAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. What you told the victims compensation fund is that your breasts were groped; correct? 3 4 A. Yes. I don't see that as significantly different, but -- 5 Q. Rubbed, groped, massaged. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Not your nipple area, any of that? 8 A. No, she did not touch my nipples. 9 Q. But you told them your breasts were groped, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you told us in your direct testimony that it was your chest and upper breast that were touched, right? 12 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: I'll allow it. Go ahead. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And you believed that that -- you told the victims compensation fund that that was also sexual abuse; correct? 17 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. When you testified on direct about the incident in the bed, you said that Mr. Epstein had his arms around you, right? 20 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you don't remember any penis being pressed against you, right? 23 24 A. No -- 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013759 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 168 of 267 2196 L CAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. What you told the victims compensation fund is that your breasts were groped; correct? 3 4 A. Yes. I don't see that as significantly different, but -- 5 Q. Rubbed, groped, massaged. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Not your nipple area, any of that? 8 A. No, she did not touch my nipples. 9 Q. But you told them your breasts were groped, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you told us in your direct testimony that it was your chest and upper breast that were touched, right? 12 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: I'll allow it. Go ahead. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And you believed that that -- you told the victims compensation fund that that was also sexual abuse; correct? 17 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. When you testified on direct about the incident in the bed, you said that Mr. Epstein had his arms around you, right? 20 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you don't remember any penis being pressed against you, right? 23 24 A. No -- 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016384 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 169 of 267 2197 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. You said erect penis. 2 THE COURT: Just a moment. 3 Grounds, Ms. Menninger. 4 MS. MENNINGER: For me, your Honor? 5 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Ms. Pomerantz. 6 Grounds, Ms. Pomerantz? 7 MS. POMERANTZ: Asked and answered, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Sustained. 9 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I am trying to draw her 10 attention to direct testimony, that's all, as a foundation of 11 further questioning. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. 13 BY MS. MENNINGER: 14 Q. Did you testify on direct that Mr. Epstein pressed his body 15 against you? 16 A. I did. 17 Q. And what you told the Epstein Victims Compensation Fund is 18 that he rubbed his genitals against you in the bed; correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Those are not consistent. 21 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 Q. You testified on direct that on your last day in New 24 Mexico, that Ghislaine seemed disinterested in your school 25 project, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013760 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 169 of 267 2197 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. You said erect penis. 2 THE COURT: Just a moment. 3 Grounds, Ms. Menninger. 4 MS. MENNINGER: For me, your Honor? 5 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Ms. Pomerantz. 6 Grounds, Ms. Pomerantz? 7 MS. POMERANTZ: Asked and answered, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Sustained. 9 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I am trying to draw her 10 attention to direct testimony, that's all, as a foundation of 11 further questioning. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. 13 BY MS. MENNINGER: 14 Q. Did you testify on direct that Mr. Epstein pressed his body 15 against you? 16 A. I did. 17 Q. And what you told the Epstein Victims Compensation Fund is 18 that he rubbed his genitals against you in the bed; correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Those are not consistent. 21 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 Q. You testified on direct that on your last day in New 24 Mexico, that Ghislaine seemed disinterested in your school 25 project, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016385 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 170 of 267 2198 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. That's not something you told the government in 2006 when you met with them, right? 3 A. I don't recall whether we talked about that. 4 Q. You never had any communication with Ghislaine after New Mexico, right? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. She never called you? 7 A. No, she did not. 8 Q. She didn't make any travel plans for you, right? 9 A. She did not. 10 Q. She didn't ask you to travel somewhere; correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. And you went to Thailand after this at some point, right? 13 A. Yes, that summer. 14 Q. And you accepted the money for the Thailand trip from Mr. Epstein, right? 15 A. I did. 16 Q. I think you talked a little bit on direct about the fact that you've made a number of public statements, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You've been on documentaries and podcasts, right? 19 A. I have. 20 Q. Under your real name? 21 A. That's correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013761 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 170 of 267 2198 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. That's not something you told the government in 2006 when 3 you met with them, right? 4 A. I don't recall whether we talked about that. 5 Q. You never had any communication with Ghislaine after New 6 Mexico, right? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. She never called you? 9 A. No, she did not. 10 Q. She didn't make any travel plans for you, right? 11 A. She did not. 12 Q. She didn't ask you to travel somewhere; correct? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. And you went to Thailand after this at some point, right? 15 A. Yes, that summer. 16 Q. And you accepted the money for the Thailand trip from 17 Mr. Epstein, right? 18 A. I did. 19 Q. I think you talked a little bit on direct about the fact 20 that you've made a number of public statements, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You've been on documentaries and podcasts, right? 23 A. I have. 24 Q. Under your real name? 25 A. That's correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016386 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 171 of 267 2199 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. And you have touted yourself in those appearances as a survivor of sexual abuse; correct? 2 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: One-word grounds. 5 MS. POMERANTZ: Form. 6 THE COURT: Overruled. 7 Q. Correct? 8 A. Have I described myself as a survivor of this -- 9 Q. Survivor of sexual abuse. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you've gone to court in relationship to Mr. Epstein's legal proceedings, right? 12 13 A. I did. 14 Q. And you spoke publicly there? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And afterwards you met with a number of other Epstein accusers; correct? 17 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You were part of a press conference with your attorneys; correct? 20 21 A. Yes. I mean, I was standing there. I wasn't really doing anything, but I was at the -- at the location. 22 23 Q. And you have had attorneys representing you in connection with this for quite some time; correct? 24 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013762 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 171 of 267 2199 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. And you have touted yourself in those appearances as a survivor of sexual abuse; correct? 2 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: One-word grounds. 5 MS. POMERANTZ: Form. 6 THE COURT: Overruled. 7 Q. Correct? 8 A. Have I described myself as a survivor of this -- 9 Q. Survivor of sexual abuse. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you've gone to court in relationship to Mr. Epstein's legal proceedings, right? 12 13 A. I did. 14 Q. And you spoke publicly there? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And afterwards you met with a number of other Epstein accusers; correct? 17 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You were part of a press conference with your attorneys; correct? 20 21 A. Yes. I mean, I was standing there. I wasn't really doing anything, but I was at the -- at the location. 22 23 Q. And you have had attorneys representing you in connection with this for quite some time; correct? 24 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016387 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 172 of 267 2200 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. You originally hired attorneys in 2016? 2 A. I don't believe I hired any attorneys at that time. I 3 was -- I spoke with an attorney at that time. 4 Q. And certainly you had hired attorneys before you first met 5 with the government in September of 2019; correct? 6 A. Yes 7 Q. At your first meeting in September of 2019, your attorneys 8 were there? 9 A. Yes, that's correct. 10 Q. Someone from the Boies Schiller firm, right? 11 A. That's right. 12 Q. And so you had a civil attorney sometime before September 13 of 2019? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So the same civil attorneys that filed a lawsuit on your 16 behalf? 17 A. They are. 18 Q. They are the same attorneys who filed the Epstein Victims 19 Compensation Fund documents on your behalf; correct? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Your attorney, Ms. McCawley, is here in the courtroom 22 wearing white; correct? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. She has attended numerous meetings with the government with 25 you, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013763 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 172 of 267 2200 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. You originally hired attorneys in 2016? 2 A. I don't believe I hired any attorneys at that time. I 3 was -- I spoke with an attorney at that time. 4 Q. And certainly you had hired attorneys before you first met 5 with the government in September of 2019; correct? 6 A. Yes 7 Q. At your first meeting in September of 2019, your attorneys 8 were there? 9 A. Yes, that's correct. 10 Q. Someone from the Boies Schiller firm, right? 11 A. That's right. 12 Q. And so you had a civil attorney sometime before September 13 of 2019? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So the same civil attorneys that filed a lawsuit on your 16 behalf? 17 A. They are. 18 Q. They are the same attorneys who filed the Epstein Victims 19 Compensation Fund documents on your behalf; correct? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. Your attorney, Ms. McCawley, is here in the courtroom 22 wearing white; correct? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. She has attended numerous meetings with the government with 25 you, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016388 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 173 of 267 2201 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. She has attended prior trial testimony in this case at this courthouse; correct? 3 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. She has sat in the overflow room for that portion; correct? 6 A. She did. 7 Q. And she's listened to the testimony of other witnesses; correct? 8 9 A. Yes. 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. 12 Q. You talked on direct about your lawyers representing you pro bono; correct? 13 14 A. That's right. 15 Q. You do not know your lawyers' arrangements with other of their clients; correct? 16 17 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 18 THE COURT: Sustained. 19 Q. Do you know how much money your lawyers have made in connection with Epstein claims? 20 21 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 22 THE COURT: Grounds. 23 MS. POMERANTZ: Foundation. 24 Beyond the scope of her knowledge, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: I'll sustain on foundation. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013764 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 173 of 267 2201 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. She has attended prior trial testimony in this case at this courthouse; correct? 3 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. She has sat in the overflow room for that portion; correct? 6 A. She did. 7 Q. And she's listened to the testimony of other witnesses; correct? 8 9 A. Yes. 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. 12 Q. You talked on direct about your lawyers representing you pro bono; correct? 13 14 A. That's right. 15 Q. You do not know your lawyers' arrangements with other of their clients; correct? 16 17 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 18 THE COURT: Sustained. 19 Q. Do you know how much money your lawyers have made in connection with Epstein claims? 20 21 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 22 THE COURT: Grounds. 23 MS. POMERANTZ: Foundation. 24 Beyond the scope of her knowledge, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: I'll sustain on foundation. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016389 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 174 of 267 2202 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. Have you read anywhere in the press how much money your lawyers have made in connection with representing Epstein accusers? MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. Hearsay. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. You know that Virginia Roberts was also represented by your attorneys; correct? MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. MS. MENNINGER: I can lay a foundation. THE COURT: You may inquire. MS. POMERANTZ: Relevance and hearsay. Q. You were preparing to testify in a civil case? THE COURT: Just a minute. MS. MENNINGER: Oh, I'm sorry. THE COURT: If there's an objection, you have to give me a minute to rule. MS. MENNINGER: I thought you had, your Honor. I apologize. THE COURT: I had on the prior ones. Overruled. You may inquire. BY MS. MENNINGER: Q. You were preparing to testify in a civil case in or around 2016 or 2017; correct? A. Correct. Q. And the lawyers you were interacting with in that case, the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013765 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 174 of 267 2202 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. Have you read anywhere in the press how much money your lawyers have made in connection with representing Epstein accusers? MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. Hearsay. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. You know that Virginia Roberts was also represented by your attorneys; correct? MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. MS. MENNINGER: I can lay a foundation. THE COURT: You may inquire. MS. POMERANTZ: Relevance and hearsay. Q. You were preparing to testify in a civil case? THE COURT: Just a minute. MS. MENNINGER: Oh, I'm sorry. THE COURT: If there's an objection, you have to give me a minute to rule. MS. MENNINGER: I thought you had, your Honor. I apologize. THE COURT: I had on the prior ones. Overruled. You may inquire. BY MS. MENNINGER: Q. You were preparing to testify in a civil case in or around 2016 or 2017; correct? A. Correct. Q. And the lawyers you were interacting with in that case, the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016390 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 175 of 267 2203 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 civil case, were the same lawyers from Boies Schiller; correct? 2 A. In part. 3 Q. And also Mr. Edwards; correct? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. And you know that in connection with that civil case, your 6 lawyers, Ms. McCawley and Mr. Edwards, represent Virginia 7 Roberts; correct? 8 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Foundation objection? 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Relevance. 11 THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz, you inquired as to pro bono 12 representation; correct? Is that correct? 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: All right. I'll overrule. 15 A. Can you repeat the question? 16 Q. You know that Ms. McCawley and Mr. Edwards represent 17 Virginia Roberts? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. In connection with civil litigation? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you were prepared to testify in that civil litigation; 24 correct? 25 A. I was. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013766 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 175 of 267 2203 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 civil case, were the same lawyers from Boies Schiller; correct? 2 A. In part. 3 Q. And also Mr. Edwards; correct? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. And you know that in connection with that civil case, your 6 lawyers, Ms. McCawley and Mr. Edwards, represent Virginia 7 Roberts; correct? 8 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Foundation objection? 10 MS. POMERANTZ: Relevance. 11 THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz, you inquired as to pro bono 12 representation; correct? Is that correct? 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: All right. I'll overrule. 15 A. Can you repeat the question? 16 Q. You know that Ms. McCawley and Mr. Edwards represent 17 Virginia Roberts? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. In connection with civil litigation? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you were prepared to testify in that civil litigation; 24 correct? 25 A. I was. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016391 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 176 of 267 2204 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. And you know that Mr. Edwards is representing other people 2 in this criminal case; correct? 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Just a moment. Overruled. 5 A. I do know that. 6 Q. And you know that your attorney represents other 7 individuals who have accused Epstein; correct? 8 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 9 THE COURT: Just a moment. Overruled. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You've been in touch with a number of other Epstein 12 accusers in many different forms and fashion; correct? 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. Vague. Confusing. 14 THE COURT: Okay. You can specify please. 15 Q. Okay. Are you a part of a WhatsApp group of Epstein 16 accusers? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You communicated with other Epstein accusers on the 19 WhatsApp for those accusers? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. You've emailed with other accusers; correct? 22 A. I have. 23 Q. You directly emailed with Virginia Roberts; correct? 24 A. I have. 25 Q. You have been with other Epstein accusers in connection SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013767 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 176 of 267 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. And you know that Mr. Edwards is representing other people 2 in this criminal case; correct? 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Just a moment. Overruled. 5 A. I do know that. 6 Q. And you know that your attorney represents other 7 individuals who have accused Epstein; correct? 8 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 9 THE COURT: Just a moment. Overruled. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You've been in touch with a number of other Epstein 12 accusers in many different forms and fashion; correct? 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. Vague. Confusing. 14 THE COURT: Okay. You can specify please. 15 Q. Okay. Are you a part of a WhatsApp group of Epstein 16 accusers? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You communicated with other Epstein accusers on the 19 WhatsApp for those accusers? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. You've emailed with other accusers; correct? 22 A. I have. 23 Q. You directly emailed with Virginia Roberts; correct? 24 A. I have. 25 Q. You have been with other Epstein accusers in connection SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016392 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 177 of 267 2205 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross with your media appearances, right? 1 Q. with your media appearances, right? 2 A. You mean when they were at the courtroom and filming everyone? 3 Q. Right. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You know that your attorneys from Boies Schiller were a 6 part of setting up the Epstein Victims Compensation Fund; 7 correct? 8 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Just a moment. 10 One-word grounds. 11 MS. POMERANTZ: Hearsay and privilege. 12 THE COURT: You can inquire as to foundation. 13 Q. I'm not trying to ask you about things that you've learned 14 in connection with your -- 15 THE COURT: Just ask. 16 Q. -- communications -- 17 THE COURT: I'll deal with that, but just ask the 18 question. I'll either sustain or overrule. 19 Q. You are aware it's a matter of public record that your 20 attorneys -- 21 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Foundation. Ask the foundation question 23 first and then we'll see. 24 MS. MENNINGER: Okay. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013768 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 177 of 267 2205 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross with your media appearances, right? A. You mean when they were at the courtroom and filming everyone? Q. Right. A. Yes. Q. You know that your attorneys from Boies Schiller were a part of setting up the Epstein Victims Compensation Fund; correct? MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Just a moment. One-word grounds. MS. POMERANTZ: Hearsay and privilege. THE COURT: You can inquire as to foundation. Q. I'm not trying to ask you about things that you've learned in connection with your -- THE COURT: Just ask. Q. -- communications -- THE COURT: I'll deal with that, but just ask the question. I'll either sustain or overrule. Q. You are aware it's a matter of public record that your attorneys -- MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Foundation. Ask the foundation question first and then we'll see. MS. MENNINGER: Okay. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016393 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 178 of 267 LCAVMAX6 1 Q. It's in the newspapers that your attorneys helped set up the Epstein Victims Compensation Fund? 2 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Is the question is she aware of that? Is that the question? 4 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 Q. And so you are aware that it is a matter of public knowledge that your attorneys helped set up the Epstein Victims Compensation Program? 7 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, objection to this entire line of questioning. 8 THE COURT: Yes, I gather. 9 MS. POMERANTZ: This calls for hearsay. 10 THE COURT: I asked for foundation. We got the foundation. And now on this question, one question at a time. I sustain. 11 BY MS. MENNINGER: 12 Q. You participated in that fund; correct? 13 A. I did. 14 Q. You accepted an offer from that fund? 15 A. I did. 16 Q. You were paid one and a half million dollars? 17 A. I was. 18 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 19 DOJ-OGR-00013769 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 178 of 267 LCAVMAX6 1 Q. It's in the newspapers that your attorneys helped set up the Epstein Victims Compensation Fund? 2 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Is the question is she aware of that? Is that the question? 4 MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 Q. And so you are aware that it is a matter of public knowledge that your attorneys helped set up the Epstein Victims Compensation Program? 7 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, objection to this entire line of questioning. 8 THE COURT: Yes, I gather. 9 MS. POMERANTZ: This calls for hearsay. 10 THE COURT: I asked for foundation. We got the foundation. And now on this question, one question at a time. I sustain. 11 BY MS. MENNINGER: 12 Q. You participated in that fund; correct? 13 A. I did. 14 Q. You accepted an offer from that fund? 15 A. I did. 16 Q. You were paid one and a half million dollars? 17 A. I was. 18 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016394 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 179 of 267 2207 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. And was based on the same things that you've testified in this courtroom today; correct? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. The sexual abuse in a movie theater, right, is one of those things? 4 A. As one of the things, yes. 5 Q. Right. 6 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, at this time I would 7 offer -- I would ask to show, excuse me, the witness AF-14. 8 And I'll provide a copy to the government. 9 MS. POMERANTZ: No objection, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MS. MENNINGER: If I could show the witness page 2 of 12 that document as well, and page 3, and the last page. 13 Q. That's your signature, Ms. Farmer; correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. That was in October of 2020? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. This form is the release form that you signed in connection 18 with accepting the offer from the victims compensation program, right? 19 A. That's right. 20 Q. And it details the one and a half million dollars that you 21 received, right? 22 A. That's right. 23 24 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013770 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 179 of 267 2207 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 Q. And was based on the same things that you've testified in this courtroom today; correct? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. The sexual abuse in a movie theater, right, is one of those things? 4 A. As one of the things, yes. 5 Q. Right. 6 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, at this time I would 7 offer -- I would ask to show, excuse me, the witness AF-14. 8 And I'll provide a copy to the government. 9 MS. POMERANTZ: No objection, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MS. MENNINGER: If I could show the witness page 2 of 12 that document as well, and page 3, and the last page. 13 Q. That's your signature, Ms. Farmer; correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. That was in October of 2020? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. This form is the release form that you signed in connection 18 with accepting the offer from the victims compensation program, right? 19 A. That's right. 20 Q. And it details the one and a half million dollars that you 21 received, right? 22 A. That's right. 23 24 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016395 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 180 of 267 2208 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 MS. MENNINGER: I would move for the admission of AF-14, your Honor. 2 MS. POMERANTZ: No objection, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: AF-14 is admitted. 4 (Defendant's Exhibit AF-14 received in evidence) 5 6 THE COURT: No redaction requests here? 7 MS. POMERANTZ: No, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: 14 is admitted. 9 MS. MENNINGER: We can take it down now, Ms. Lundberg. 10 BY MS. MENNINGER: 11 Q. In connection with some of your public appearances, you have described the fact that you are a psychologist; correct? 12 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. And you have described the fact that you work with victims of sexual trauma; correct? 15 16 A. Amongst other types of, yeah, clients, I do. 17 Q. And you know that it gives you more credibility with future clients -- 18 19 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 20 Q. -- if you mention your profession in connection with your media appearances, right? 21 22 THE COURT: Just a moment. 23 There's an objection to that question? 24 MS. POMERANTZ: That's fine, your Honor. Withdrawn. 25 THE COURT: Go ahead. 26 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013771 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 180 of 267 2208 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 MS. MENNINGER: I would move for the admission of AF-14, your Honor. 2 MS. POMERANTZ: No objection, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: AF-14 is admitted. 4 (Defendant's Exhibit AF-14 received in evidence) 5 6 THE COURT: No redaction requests here? 7 MS. POMERANTZ: No, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: 14 is admitted. 9 MS. MENNINGER: We can take it down now, Ms. Lundberg. 10 BY MS. MENNINGER: 11 Q. In connection with some of your public appearances, you have described the fact that you are a psychologist; correct? 12 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. And you have described the fact that you work with victims of sexual trauma; correct? 15 16 A. Amongst other types of, yeah, clients, I do. 17 Q. And you know that it gives you more credibility with future clients -- 18 19 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 20 Q. -- if you mention your profession in connection with your media appearances, right? 21 22 THE COURT: Just a moment. 23 There's an objection to that question? 24 MS. POMERANTZ: That's fine, your Honor. Withdrawn. 25 THE COURT: Go ahead. 26 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016396 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 181 of 267 2209 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. The question is whether it gives me more credibility to be a victim? 2 a victim? 3 Q. It gives you more credibility with future clients if you 4 mention your experience during your media appearances; correct? 5 A. My personal experience or my professional experience? 6 Q. Your personal experiences. 7 A. I guess I would say that that is probably not -- people 8 have different opinions about that, about whether that would 9 give you credibility or not. 10 Q. You certainly have not shied away from telling in your 11 public appearances the fact that you are, yourself, trained as 12 a psychologist, right? 13 A. I have shared that. 14 Q. We've talked previously about the fact that you spoke with 15 the FBI in 2006, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. That was with Agent Nesbitt Kuyrkendall, right? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. You did not tell Agent Kuyrkendall in 2006 that you wanted 20 Mr. Epstein prosecuted; correct? 21 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 I'll hear from you, if you'd like. 24 MS. MENNINGER: Yes. Please. I'm not clear. 25 THE COURT: Sure. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013772 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 181 of 267 2209 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 A. The question is whether it gives me more credibility to be a victim? 2 a victim? 3 Q. It gives you more credibility with future clients if you 4 mention your experience during your media appearances; correct? 5 A. My personal experience or my professional experience? 6 Q. Your personal experiences. 7 A. I guess I would say that that is probably not -- people 8 have different opinions about that, about whether that would 9 give you credibility or not. 10 Q. You certainly have not shied away from telling in your 11 public appearances the fact that you are, yourself, trained as 12 a psychologist, right? 13 A. I have shared that. 14 Q. We've talked previously about the fact that you spoke with 15 the FBI in 2006, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. That was with Agent Nesbitt Kuyrkendall, right? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. You did not tell Agent Kuyrkendall in 2006 that you wanted 20 Mr. Epstein prosecuted; correct? 21 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 I'll hear from you, if you'd like. 24 MS. MENNINGER: Yes. Please. I'm not clear. 25 THE COURT: Sure. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016397 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 182 of 267 2210 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 (At sidebar) 2 THE COURT: State your ground. 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I don't understand the relevance of this question. It seems just like a wholly improper question, what she was asking, whether she asked the FBI to prosecute Jeffrey Epstein at this time. I just don't even understand the question. 8 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, Agent Kuyrkendall signed a declaration in 2017 and she said that she spoke to a number of victims between '06 and '08, and none of them expressed an opinion that they wanted Epstein prosecuted. Now, she clearly, in 2019, did want Epstein prosecuted. 13 THE COURT: She's the witness. 14 MS. MENNINGER: What's that? 15 THE COURT: She's the witness subpoenaed to testify. 16 Her motivation -- 17 MS. MENNINGER: I'm asking what she said to -- 18 THE COURT: Right, but -- 19 MS. MENNINGER: Okay. You want me to ask the motivation? I see. 21 THE COURT: Well, I don't understand -- well, I'll sustain the objection to the question asked -- 22 MS. MENNINGER: Okay. 23 THE COURT: -- about what she told an agent -- 24 MS. MENNINGER: Okay. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013773 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 182 of 267 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 (At sidebar) 2 THE COURT: State your ground. 3 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I don't understand the relevance of this question. It seems just like a wholly improper question, what she was asking, whether she asked the FBI to prosecute Jeffrey Epstein at this time. I just don't even understand the question. 8 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, Agent Kuyrkendall signed a declaration in 2017 and she said that she spoke to a number of victims between '06 and '08, and none of them expressed an opinion that they wanted Epstein prosecuted. Now, she clearly, in 2019, did want Epstein prosecuted. 13 THE COURT: She's the witness. 14 MS. MENNINGER: What's that? 15 THE COURT: She's the witness subpoenaed to testify. 16 Her motivation -- 17 MS. MENNINGER: I'm asking what she said to -- 18 THE COURT: Right, but -- 19 MS. MENNINGER: Okay. You want me to ask the motivation? I see. 21 THE COURT: Well, I don't understand -- well, I'll sustain the objection to the question asked -- 23 MS. MENNINGER: Okay. 24 THE COURT: -- about what she told an agent -- 25 MS. MENNINGER: Okay. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016398 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 183 of 267 2211 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 THE COURT: -- in 2006. 2 What's the next question? 3 MS. MENNINGER: It would just be, You did not want Epstein prosecuted in 2006? 4 5 THE COURT: You want to ask her if she wanted Epstein 6 prosecuted in 2006? 7 MS. MENNINGER: Yes. 8 THE COURT: What is the relevance of that? 9 MS. MENNINGER: Because she's changed her mind about 10 wanting people prosecuted in connection with this case. She 11 has a different bias today than she did in 2006; that she 12 brought up her lawsuit in connection with applying to the fund 13 and filing a civil lawsuit. When she didn't have those 14 motivations in 2006, she didn't want to prosecute. It's a 15 clear distinction in two different periods of time, 15 years 16 apart. It goes to our money theme, your Honor, that we opened 17 on. 18 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I just don't see the 19 relevance or basis for this line of questioning. 20 THE COURT: You're going to ask her if she wanted 21 Epstein prosecuted in 2006. And if she says yes, then what? 22 MS. MENNINGER: Agent Kuyrkendall is under subpoena, 23 your Honor, and testified that none of the victims she talked 24 to in '06 to '08 wanted them prosecuted. 25 THE COURT: You're not doing that. I've ruled on SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013774 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 183 of 267 2211 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 THE COURT: -- in 2006. 2 What's the next question? 3 MS. MENNINGER: It would just be, You did not want Epstein prosecuted in 2006? 4 5 THE COURT: You want to ask her if she wanted Epstein 6 prosecuted in 2006? 7 MS. MENNINGER: Yes. 8 THE COURT: What is the relevance of that? 9 MS. MENNINGER: Because she's changed her mind about 10 wanting people prosecuted in connection with this case. She 11 has a different bias today than she did in 2006; that she 12 brought up her lawsuit in connection with applying to the fund 13 and filing a civil lawsuit. When she didn't have those 14 motivations in 2006, she didn't want to prosecute. It's a 15 clear distinction in two different periods of time, 15 years 16 apart. It goes to our money theme, your Honor, that we opened 17 on. 18 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I just don't see the 19 relevance or basis for this line of questioning. 20 THE COURT: You're going to ask her if she wanted 21 Epstein prosecuted in 2006. And if she says yes, then what? 22 MS. MENNINGER: Agent Kuyrkendall is under subpoena, 23 your Honor, and testified that none of the victims she talked 24 to in '06 to '08 wanted them prosecuted. 25 THE COURT: You're not doing that. I've ruled on SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016399 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 184 of 267 2212 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 that. 2 MS. MENNINGER: What she told the agent about 3 prosecution. 4 MS. MOE: Your Honor, I think we're confusing two 5 issues: Whether or not she told the FBI she wanted him prosecuted and asked them to do that and whether she, in fact, wanted that to happen. I think what she's proposing is impeaching her in the absence of a statement to the FBI. 9 THE COURT: I think that's right. You can ask her, I suppose, if she wanted him prosecuted in 2006. I'm not going to allow -- 12 MS. MENNINGER: I know with this witness I'm not. If we get into -- 13 14 THE COURT: We'll get into that when we get into that. 15 MS. MENNINGER: That's right. 16 THE COURT: But not what you told. 17 MS. MENNINGER: I understand. 18 MS. MOE: We're now about an hour and 15 minutes. 19 THE COURT: There have been a lot of objections. 20 (Continued on next page) 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013775 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 184 of 267 2212 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - cross 1 that. 2 MS. MENNINGER: What she told the agent about 3 prosecution. 4 MS. MOE: Your Honor, I think we're confusing two 5 issues: Whether or not she told the FBI she wanted him prosecuted and asked them to do that and whether she, in fact, wanted that to happen. I think what she's proposing is impeaching her in the absence of a statement to the FBI. 9 THE COURT: I think that's right. You can ask her, I suppose, if she wanted him prosecuted in 2006. I'm not going to allow -- 12 MS. MENNINGER: I know with this witness I'm not. If we get into -- 13 14 THE COURT: We'll get into that when we get into that. 15 MS. MENNINGER: That's right. 16 THE COURT: But not what you told. 17 MS. MENNINGER: I understand. 18 MS. MOE: We're now about an hour and 15 minutes. 19 THE COURT: There have been a lot of objections. 20 (Continued on next page) 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016400 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 185 of 267 2213 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - redirect 1 (In open court) 2 BY MS. MENNINGER: 3 Q. Ms. Farmer, in 2006, you did not want Jeffrey Epstein prosecuted; correct? 4 5 A. I don't recall that being the case. 6 Q. You didn't want him prosecuted because no crime had been 7 committed; correct? 8 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 9 THE COURT: Sustained. 10 MS. MENNINGER: If I may have one moment to confer with my client, your Honor? 11 12 THE COURT: You may. 13 (Counsel conferred with defendant) 14 MS. MENNINGER: No further questions at this time, 15 your Honor. 16 17 THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz? 18 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I just have one moment please? 19 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 20 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 21 Q. Good afternoon, Annie. 22 A. Good afternoon. 23 Q. How, if at all, have you struggled to process your 24 experiences with Maxwell and Epstein? 25 A. I think it's been -- it was a very upsetting and confusing SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013776 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 185 of 267 2213 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - redirect 1 (In open court) 2 BY MS. MENNINGER: 3 Q. Ms. Farmer, in 2006, you did not want Jeffrey Epstein prosecuted; correct? 4 5 A. I don't recall that being the case. 6 Q. You didn't want him prosecuted because no crime had been 7 committed; correct? 8 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 9 THE COURT: Sustained. 10 MS. MENNINGER: If I may have one moment to confer 11 with my client, your Honor? 12 THE COURT: You may. 13 (Counsel conferred with defendant) 14 MS. MENNINGER: No further questions at this time, 15 your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz? 17 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I just have one moment 18 please? 19 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 20 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 21 Q. Good afternoon, Annie. 22 A. Good afternoon. 23 Q. How, if at all, have you struggled to process your 24 experiences with Maxwell and Epstein? 25 A. I think it's been -- it was a very upsetting and confusing SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016401 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 186 of 267 2214 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - redirect situation. And I think for a long time I just really didn't want to think about it. And then, you know, of course, it has come up again and again, and so with, you know -- I have thought a lot more about it and it -- it's just -- it causes discomfort, and yeah. I don't know what to say. Q. You were asked questions on cross-examination about your journal. Do you remember that? A. Yes. Q. Did you give the government every entry from your journal that has anything to do with this case? A. Yes. Q. What's the subject matter of the rest of your -- of that journal from when you were 16 years old? A. Very high school kind of things. There's a journal entry about the day that -- Q. I should say, without sharing any details, just generally, what was the subject matter of the rest of your teenage journal? A. A favorite musician died, and I wrote that I was very sad about it. Going -- like social things, friend things, things like that. Q. Did you write about private matters? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall being asked about your first interview with the FBI in 2006? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013777 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 186 of 267 2214 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - redirect situation. And I think for a long time I just really didn't want to think about it. And then, you know, of course, it has come up again and again, and so with, you know -- I have thought a lot more about it and it -- it's just -- it causes discomfort, and yeah. I don't know what to say. Q. You were asked questions on cross-examination about your journal. Do you remember that? A. Yes. Q. Did you give the government every entry from your journal that has anything to do with this case? A. Yes. Q. What's the subject matter of the rest of your -- of that journal from when you were 16 years old? A. Very high school kind of things. There's a journal entry about the day that -- Q. I should say, without sharing any details, just generally, what was the subject matter of the rest of your teenage journal? A. A favorite musician died, and I wrote that I was very sad about it. Going -- like social things, friend things, things like that. Q. Did you write about private matters? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall being asked about your first interview with the FBI in 2006? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016402 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 187 of 267 2215 LCAVMAX6 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. When you spoke with the FBI in 2006, did you have a lawyer? 3 A. I did not. 4 Q. When you spoke with the FBI in 2006, did you tell the FBI about Maxwell massaging your breasts? 5 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. When you spoke with the FBI in 2006, did you tell the FBI about Epstein getting into bed with you? 8 9 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Leading, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 Q. Do you recall Ms. Menninger asking you about a particular statement you made in connection with the 2006 interview conducted by the FBI? 12 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. I believe she showed you a particular document to refresh your recollection. 16 17 MS. POMERANTZ: Can we pull up 3514-001. 18 Q. And I want to direct your attention to the second full paragraph on page 2. 19 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And directing your attention to the last sentence. She directed you to the first half of the sentence, but I would like to direct you to the full sentence. 22 23 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. After you told the FBI that Maria was supposed to go on the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013778 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 187 of 267 2215 LCAVMAX6 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. When you spoke with the FBI in 2006, did you have a lawyer? 3 A. I did not. 4 Q. When you spoke with the FBI in 2006, did you tell the FBI about Maxwell massaging your breasts? 5 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. When you spoke with the FBI in 2006, did you tell the FBI about Epstein getting into bed with you? 8 9 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Leading, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 Q. Do you recall Ms. Menninger asking you about a particular statement you made in connection with the 2006 interview conducted by the FBI? 12 13 A. Yes. 14 15 Q. I believe she showed you a particular document to refresh your recollection. 16 17 MS. POMERANTZ: Can we pull up 3514-001. 18 Q. And I want to direct your attention to the second full paragraph on page 2. 19 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And directing your attention to the last sentence. She directed you to the first half of the sentence, but I would like to direct you to the full sentence. 22 23 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. After you told the FBI that Maria was supposed to go on the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016403 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 188 of 267 2216 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - redirect 1 trip to New Mexico, what's the very next thing you said to the FBI? 2 3 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. 4 Hearsay. Foundation, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Overruled. 6 This was the sentence Ms. Pomerantz asked you to read 7 in context. And I believe your words were, That's what 8 redirect is for. 9 MS. MENNINGER: And for objections on redirect, 10 including foundation. 11 THE COURT: Understood. Overruled. 12 A. That Epstein or Maxwell was the one that was responsible 13 for canceling Maria's trip at the last minute. 14 Q. I want to direct your attention to a -- the last paragraph 15 on that same page. 16 MS. POMERANTZ: Can we pull that up, Ms. Drescher. 17 Q. And do you recall when you were asked questions on 18 cross-examination, Ms. Menninger read the sentences about 19 horseback riding in this paragraph to you? 20 A. Yes. 21 (Continued on next page) 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013779 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 188 of 267 2216 LCAVMAX6 A. Farmer - redirect 1 trip to New Mexico, what's the very next thing you said to the FBI? 2 3 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. 4 Hearsay. Foundation, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Overruled. 6 This was the sentence Ms. Pomerantz asked you to read 7 in context. And I believe your words were, That's what 8 redirect is for. 9 MS. MENNINGER: And for objections on redirect, 10 including foundation. 11 THE COURT: Understood. Overruled. 12 A. That Epstein or Maxwell was the one that was responsible 13 for canceling Maria's trip at the last minute. 14 Q. I want to direct your attention to a -- the last paragraph 15 on that same page. 16 MS. POMERANTZ: Can we pull that up, Ms. Drescher. 17 Q. And do you recall when you were asked questions on 18 cross-examination, Ms. Menninger read the sentences about 19 horseback riding in this paragraph to you? 20 A. Yes. 21 (Continued on next page) 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016404 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 189 of 267 2217 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Can you read the rest of the paragraph to yourself. A. Yes. Q. Does that refresh your recollection that you told the FBI in 2006 that Maxwell -- MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Leading, your Honor. And there was no denial of a recollection to refresh. THE COURT: Sustained. MS. POMERANTZ: Prior consistent statements. THE COURT: You can ask the question. Leading. Sustained. Q. What do you recall telling the FBI -- MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have just one moment? THE COURT: You may. Q. Annie, did you tell the FBI about a foot massage in 2006? A. I did. Q. What did you tell the FBI about a foot massage? A. That Maxwell showed me how to rub Epstein's feet and that, eventually -- MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I believe the witness is reading from a document. THE COURT: We can take it down. A. -- that I began doing that on my own after she had shown me how to do it. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013780 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 189 of 267 2217 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect 1 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 2 Q. Can you read the rest of the paragraph to yourself. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Does that refresh your recollection that you told the FBI in 2006 that Maxwell -- 5 6 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Leading, your Honor. And there was no denial of a recollection to refresh. 7 8 THE COURT: Sustained. 9 MS. POMERANTZ: Prior consistent statements. 10 THE COURT: You can ask the question. Leading. 11 Sustained. 12 Q. What do you recall telling the FBI -- 13 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have just one moment? 14 15 THE COURT: You may. 16 Q. Annie, did you tell the FBI about a foot massage in 2006? 17 A. I did. 18 Q. What did you tell the FBI about a foot massage? 19 A. That Maxwell showed me how to rub Epstein's feet and that, eventually -- 20 21 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I believe the witness is reading from a document. 22 23 THE COURT: We can take it down. 24 A. -- that I began doing that on my own after she had shown me how to do it. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016405 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 190 of 267 2218 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect MS. POMERANTZ: If we can bring up 3514-001 on page 3. Blow up the top paragraph. MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I'm not sure what the witness is being shown the document for. THE COURT: I'll allow it. I will see, but I presume prior consistent statements following impeachment of prior inconsistent statements. MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. But either the witness recalls it from memory or needs to be refreshed, and that's the part that's not a matter of record in this procedure. THE COURT: Fair enough. You'll ask the specific question and then we can take it from there. You can take it down. BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Annie, do you recall what you told the FBI in 2006 about the massage that Maxwell had given you? A. I recall the parts that I've described. Q. Can you explain? A. Yes. Again, that she had me lay on the table, that she was eager for me to experience the massage and asked me to, you know, lay on the table, to undress, to lay under the sheets, and then she began rubbing my body. Eventually, she pulled back the sheet -- MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Narrative, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013781 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 190 of 267 2218 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect MS. POMERANTZ: If we can bring up 3514-001 on page 3. Blow up the top paragraph. MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I'm not sure what the witness is being shown the document for. THE COURT: I'll allow it. I will see, but I presume prior consistent statements following impeachment of prior inconsistent statements. MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. But either the witness recalls it from memory or needs to be refreshed, and that's the part that's not a matter of record in this procedure. THE COURT: Fair enough. You'll ask the specific question and then we can take it from there. You can take it down. BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Annie, do you recall what you told the FBI in 2006 about the massage that Maxwell had given you? A. I recall the parts that I've described. Q. Can you explain? A. Yes. Again, that she had me lay on the table, that she was eager for me to experience the massage and asked me to, you know, lay on the table, to undress, to lay under the sheets, and then she began rubbing my body. Eventually, she pulled back the sheet -- MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Narrative, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016406 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 191 of 267 2219 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect THE COURT: Overruled. A. -- and rubbed my breasts, as I described. Q. And you talked about your experience with Epstein and Maxwell in New Mexico. Did you include the details of your experience with Epstein and Maxwell in your submission to the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall being asked questions on cross examination about your time in New Mexico? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall being asked questions about the movie that you saw in New Mexico? A. Yes. Q. What was that movie again? A. Primal Fear. Q. Why does that movie stand out in your memory? A. In the movie, there's a priest that's sexually abusing -- it's a theme around sexual abuse. So there is sexual misconduct on the screen with the actors. Q. You were asked questions on cross examination about public interviews you gave. Do you remember that? A. Yes. Q. About how many interviews have you given publicly? A. I think maybe four or five. Q. And are your public interviews consistent or inconsistent SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013782 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 191 of 267 2219 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect THE COURT: Overruled. A. -- and rubbed my breasts, as I described. Q. And you talked about your experience with Epstein and Maxwell in New Mexico. Did you include the details of your experience with Epstein and Maxwell in your submission to the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall being asked questions on cross examination about your time in New Mexico? A. Yes. Q. Do you recall being asked questions about the movie that you saw in New Mexico? A. Yes. Q. What was that movie again? A. Primal Fear. Q. Why does that movie stand out in your memory? A. In the movie, there's a priest that's sexually abusing -- it's a theme around sexual abuse. So there is sexual misconduct on the screen with the actors. Q. You were asked questions on cross examination about public interviews you gave. Do you remember that? A. Yes. Q. About how many interviews have you given publicly? A. I think maybe four or five. Q. And are your public interviews consistent or inconsistent SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016407 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 192 of 267 2220 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect with what you have testified about here today? MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. When you spoke publicly in interviews, did you tell the truth? A. Yes. Q. Was it important to tell the truth when you spoke publicly? MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. Annie, have you coordinated your testimony with any other witnesses at this trial? A. I have not. Q. Has anyone ever told you what to say? A. No. Q. Have you conformed your testimony to anyone else? A. No. Q. What are you here to do today? A. I'm here to be a part of hoping that Ghislaine Maxwell's held accountable for the harm that she's caused. Q. You were asked questions about your claim to the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund. Do you recall that? A. Yes. Q. And to be clear, approximately when and what year did you submit your application to the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013783 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 192 of 267 2220 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect with what you have testified about here today? MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. When you spoke publicly in interviews, did you tell the truth? A. Yes. Q. Was it important to tell the truth when you spoke publicly? MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. Annie, have you coordinated your testimony with any other witnesses at this trial? A. I have not. Q. Has anyone ever told you what to say? A. No. Q. Have you conformed your testimony to anyone else? A. No. Q. What are you here to do today? A. I'm here to be a part of hoping that Ghislaine Maxwell's held accountable for the harm that she's caused. Q. You were asked questions about your claim to the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund. Do you recall that? A. Yes. Q. And to be clear, approximately when and what year did you submit your application to the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016408 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 193 of 267 2221 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect 1 A. In 2020. 2 Q. And just to take a step back, can you remind the jury, when was the first time that you spoke with the FBI? 3 A. 2006. 4 Q. And just to remind the jury, when you spoke with the FBI in 2006, did you have a lawyer? 5 A. I did not. 6 Q. You were asked questions about the award that you received from the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Can you tell the jury what the money means to you? 9 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Relevance, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Overruled. 11 A. It's a very significant chunk of money. It's a security for myself and my family, and it's already been helpful in providing that. 12 Q. To be clear, do you have a financial stake in the outcome of this trial? 13 A. I do not. 14 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Asked and answered, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Sustained. 16 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have just one moment, please? 17 THE COURT: You may. 18 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013784 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 193 of 267 2221 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect 1 A. In 2020. 2 Q. And just to take a step back, can you remind the jury, when was the first time that you spoke with the FBI? 3 A. 2006. 4 Q. And just to remind the jury, when you spoke with the FBI in 2006, did you have a lawyer? 5 A. I did not. 6 Q. You were asked questions about the award that you received from the Epstein Victim Compensation Fund? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Can you tell the jury what the money means to you? 9 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Relevance, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Overruled. 11 A. It's a very significant chunk of money. It's a security for myself and my family, and it's already been helpful in providing that. 12 Q. To be clear, do you have a financial stake in the outcome of this trial? 13 A. I do not. 14 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Asked and answered, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Sustained. 16 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have just one moment, please? 17 THE COURT: You may. 18 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016409 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 194 of 267 2222 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Annie, do you recall being asked questions on cross examination about your memory? A. Yes. Q. Do you remember Maxwell touching your breasts? A. Yes. Q. Do you need a journal entry or a piece of paper to remember Maxwell touching your breasts? A. No. MS. MENNINGER: Objection. THE COURT: I'm sorry. There is an objection. MS. POMERANTZ: Sorry, your Honor. MS. MENNINGER: Leading to the last question. THE COURT: I'll allow the question and then pause after the next one. MS. POMERANTZ: Apologies, your Honor. I'm sorry. I just want to know which question I should back up to. THE COURT: The question was, do you need a journal entry or a piece of paper. BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Annie, do you need a journal entry or a piece of paper to remember Maxwell touching your breasts during a massage? A. No, I do not. Q. Why does that stand out? A. Because it was a very distressing event, and those are the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013785 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 194 of 267 2222 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Annie, do you recall being asked questions on cross examination about your memory? A. Yes. Q. Do you remember Maxwell touching your breasts? A. Yes. Q. Do you need a journal entry or a piece of paper to remember Maxwell touching your breasts? A. No. MS. MENNINGER: Objection. THE COURT: I'm sorry. There is an objection. MS. POMERANTZ: Sorry, your Honor. MS. MENNINGER: Leading to the last question. THE COURT: I'll allow the question and then pause after the next one. MS. POMERANTZ: Apologies, your Honor. I'm sorry. I just want to know which question I should back up to. THE COURT: The question was, do you need a journal entry or a piece of paper. BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Annie, do you need a journal entry or a piece of paper to remember Maxwell touching your breasts during a massage? A. No, I do not. Q. Why does that stand out? A. Because it was a very distressing event, and those are the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016410 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 195 of 267 2223 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect things that we remember. Q. Can you explain to the jury -- MS. POMERANTZ: Withdrawn. Q. Do you recall being asked about Jeffrey Epstein's penis several times on cross examination? A. I do. Q. In your own words, can you explain what Epstein did when he got into bed with you? MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. Asked and answered. And I was not allowed to ask the question. THE COURT: I believe the objection I sustained with you was the asked and answered question, wasn't it? MS. MENNINGER: No, your Honor. THE COURT: Give me a moment. Overruled. BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Annie, I believe the question I had asked was: In your own words, can you explain what Epstein did when he got into bed with you? MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Calls for a narrative, your Honor. THE COURT: I'll give her some room to lead, if you'd like. I don't know what the answer will be, so how can you -- she can either lead or she can ask a non-leading question. So if it's -- MS. MENNINGER: It's a broad question. That's my SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013786 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 195 of 267 2223 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect things that we remember. Q. Can you explain to the jury -- MS. POMERANTZ: Withdrawn. Q. Do you recall being asked about Jeffrey Epstein's penis several times on cross examination? A. I do. Q. In your own words, can you explain what Epstein did when he got into bed with you? MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. Asked and answered. And I was not allowed to ask the question. THE COURT: I believe the objection I sustained with you was the asked and answered question, wasn't it? MS. MENNINGER: No, your Honor. THE COURT: Give me a moment. Overruled. BY MS. POMERANTZ: Q. Annie, I believe the question I had asked was: In your own words, can you explain what Epstein did when he got into bed with you? MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Calls for a narrative, your Honor. THE COURT: I'll give her some room to lead, if you'd like. I don't know what the answer will be, so how can you -- she can either lead or she can ask a non-leading question. So if it's -- MS. MENNINGER: It's a broad question. That's my SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016411 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 196 of 267 2224 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect complaint. THE COURT: Overruled. A. When he crawled into bed with me, he put his arms around me and he pressed his body into mine and, you know, sort of -- he had rubbing up against me with his arms around my front. Q. You testified about your experiences with Epstein and Maxwell, about them being sexualized experiences. Can you explain in your own words what you mean by that? MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. A. I think this was all a pattern of them working on confusing my boundaries, making me question myself about what was right and what was not right and with the ultimate goal of sexually abusing me. MS. MENNINGER: Objection. 702, your Honor. THE COURT: Overruled. Door opened. Overruled. Q. Can you explain to the jury in your own words how you experienced Maxwell touching your breasts during the massage in New Mexico? MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Misstates the witness's testimony. THE COURT: Just a moment. Overruled. A. I was very uncomfortable and fearful and wanted to get off of the table, that massage table, and wanted it to be over with. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013787 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 196 of 267 2224 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect 1 complaint. 2 THE COURT: Overruled. 3 A. When he crawled into bed with me, he put his arms around me 4 and he pressed his body into mine and, you know, sort of -- he 5 had rubbing up against me with his arms around my front. 6 Q. You testified about your experiences with Epstein and 7 Maxwell, about them being sexualized experiences. Can you 8 explain in your own words what you mean by that? 9 MS. MENNINGER: Objection, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Overruled. 11 A. I think this was all a pattern of them working on confusing 12 my boundaries, making me question myself about what was right 13 and what was not right and with the ultimate goal of sexually 14 abusing me. 15 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. 702, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Overruled. Door opened. Overruled. 17 Q. Can you explain to the jury in your own words how you 18 experienced Maxwell touching your breasts during the massage in 19 New Mexico? 20 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Misstates the witness's 21 testimony. 22 THE COURT: Just a moment. Overruled. 23 A. I was very uncomfortable and fearful and wanted to get off 24 of the table, that massage table, and wanted it to be over 25 with. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016412 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 197 of 267 2225 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect 1 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have just one moment, please. 2 3 THE COURT: You may. 4 MS. POMERANTZ: No further questions, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Ms. Menninger. 6 MS. MENNINGER: No further questions, your Honor. Thank you. 7 8 THE COURT: Thank you. Ms. Farmer, you may step down. You are excused. 9 10 (Witness excused) 11 Government may call its next witness. 12 MS. POMERANTZ: The government calls David Mulligan. 13 THE COURT: David Mulligan may come forward. 14 15 MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, may we come forward just one moment? 16 17 THE COURT: Have Mr. Mulligan wait one moment until we come back. 18 (Continued on next page) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013788 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 197 of 267 2225 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect 1 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have just one moment, please. 2 3 THE COURT: You may. 4 MS. POMERANTZ: No further questions, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Ms. Menninger. 6 MS. MENNINGER: No further questions, your Honor. Thank you. 7 8 THE COURT: Thank you. Ms. Farmer, you may step down. You are excused. 9 10 (Witness excused) 11 Government may call its next witness. 12 MS. POMERANTZ: The government calls David Mulligan. 13 THE COURT: David Mulligan may come forward. 14 15 MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, may we come forward just one moment? 16 17 THE COURT: Have Mr. Mulligan wait one moment until we come back. 18 (Continued on next page) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016413 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 198 of 267 2226 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect 1 (At the sidebar) 2 THE COURT: Before I start, I want to make a record 3 because I said, door open. 4 The defense expressly attempted to suggest impeachment 5 of the witness, that she had indicated the handholding on the 6 victim's compensation form as sexual abuse. So I allowed that 7 question. In light of that door opening, I don't think she'd 8 tread it into expert testimony in any way, but it was directly 9 responsive to a series of questions that the defense put at 10 issue by her description of the earlier conduct as handholding. 11 So that's the record I'm making. 12 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, may I make a very brief -- 13 THE COURT: You're welcome to make a record. I wanted 14 to explain why I said, door opened. 15 MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor. I had asked 16 the witness a number of questions about her statements to law 17 enforcement where she said she does not remember it being 18 sexualized and I was not allowed to ask those questions about 19 those not being sexualized touches. 20 THE COURT: The record is what it is. That's not the 21 Court's memory. 22 MS. MENNINGER: It's my memory, and I understand -- 23 THE COURT: -- asked repeatedly, that's true, and I 24 didn't allow it to be asked if it was not a prior inconsistent 25 statement, but I didn't preclude that area from being explored. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013789 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 198 of 267 2226 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect 1 (At the sidebar) 2 THE COURT: Before I start, I want to make a record 3 because I said, door open. 4 The defense expressly attempted to suggest impeachment 5 of the witness, that she had indicated the handholding on the 6 victim's compensation form as sexual abuse. So I allowed that 7 question. In light of that door opening, I don't think she'd 8 tread it into expert testimony in any way, but it was directly 9 responsive to a series of questions that the defense put at 10 issue by her description of the earlier conduct as handholding. 11 So that's the record I'm making. 12 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, may I make a very brief -- 13 THE COURT: You're welcome to make a record. I wanted 14 to explain why I said, door opened. 15 MS. MENNINGER: Thank you, your Honor. I had asked 16 the witness a number of questions about her statements to law 17 enforcement where she said she does not remember it being 18 sexualized and I was not allowed to ask those questions about 19 those not being sexualized touches. 20 THE COURT: The record is what it is. That's not the 21 Court's memory. 22 MS. MENNINGER: It's my memory, and I understand -- 23 THE COURT: -- asked repeatedly, that's true, and I 24 didn't allow it to be asked if it was not a prior inconsistent 25 statement, but I didn't preclude that area from being explored. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016414 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 199 of 267 2227 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect MS. MENNINGER: For that reason, having her explain what sexualized means when I wasn't allowed to elicit to the agents that it wasn't sexualized is what gives me concern. THE COURT: The record stands and you inquired. I didn't prohibit you from asking her, I didn't let her explain what sexualized means either. I've made my record and the record stands as it is. You can't go back in time. MS. MENNINGER: That's right. THE COURT: What is the issue? Should I send the jury for a break or? MS. STERNHEIM: If this would probably be a good time for a break before they call him, but I can make it very quickly. THE COURT: Go ahead. MS. STERNHEIM: It's my understanding that Dave Mulligan is being called as a witness for prior inconsistent statements. THE COURT: Right. MS. STERNHEIM: The 3500 material that has been provided far exceeds the testimony of this witness, and I just want to make sure that it is not going to exceed as far as prior consistent what she's testified to. MS. POMERANTZ: I'm happy to consult with Ms. Sternheim on a break. My plan is to ask specific questions that would be consistent with what she's testified about. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013790 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 199 of 267 2227 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect MS. MENNINGER: For that reason, having her explain what sexualized means when I wasn't allowed to elicit to the agents that it wasn't sexualized is what gives me concern. THE COURT: The record stands and you inquired. I didn't prohibit you from asking her, I didn't let her explain what sexualized means either. I've made my record and the record stands as it is. You can't go back in time. MS. MENNINGER: That's right. THE COURT: What is the issue? Should I send the jury for a break or? MS. STERNHEIM: If this would probably be a good time for a break before they call him, but I can make it very quickly. THE COURT: Go ahead. MS. STERNHEIM: It's my understanding that Dave Mulligan is being called as a witness for prior inconsistent statements. THE COURT: Right. MS. STERNHEIM: The 3500 material that has been provided far exceeds the testimony of this witness, and I just want to make sure that it is not going to exceed as far as prior consistent what she's testified to. MS. POMERANTZ: I'm happy to consult with Ms. Sternheim on a break. My plan is to ask specific questions that would be consistent with what she's testified about. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016415 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 200 of 267 2228 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect 1 THE COURT: Let's get started. My plan was to break at 3:30. 2 3 MS. STERNHEIM: Thank you. 4 THE COURT: If I get an objection, then I'll send them 5 for a break. 6 (Continued on next page) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013791 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 200 of 267 2228 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect 1 THE COURT: Let's get started. My plan was to break at 3:30. 2 3 MS. STERNHEIM: Thank you. 4 THE COURT: If I get an objection, then I'll send them for a break. 5 6 (Continued on next page) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016416 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 201 of 267 2229 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: I understand the members of the jury need 3 a restroom break, so we'll break for about 10 minutes. 4 (Continued on next page) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013792 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 201 of 267 2229 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: I understand the members of the jury need 3 a restroom break, so we'll break for about 10 minutes. 4 (Continued on next page) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016417 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 202 of 267 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: I encourage counsel to confer. I'll come back in 10. You let me know if there is dispute about the scope of the -- 5 MS. STERNHEIM: Yes, Judge. May I sit here rather than move or would you prefer I move to that -- 7 THE COURT: I don't mind. That's fine, Ms. Sternheim. 8 MS. STERNHEIM: Thank you. 9 THE COURT: 10 minutes. Thank you. 10 (Recess) 11 THE COURT: Any matters to take up? 12 MS. POMERANTZ: Not from the government, your Honor. 13 MS. MENNINGER: No, your Honor. 14 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, should we get the witness? 15 THE COURT: Yes, he can come in. That's fine. He's been called. 17 Mr. Mulligan, you're welcome to come in, take your mask off. Once the jury comes in, I'll swear you in. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 (Continued on next page) 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013793 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 202 of 267 LCACmax7 A. Farmer - redirect 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: I encourage counsel to confer. I'll come back in 10. You let me know if there is dispute about the scope of the -- 5 MS. STERNHEIM: Yes, Judge. May I sit here rather than move or would you prefer I move to that -- 7 THE COURT: I don't mind. That's fine, Ms. Sternheim. 8 MS. STERNHEIM: Thank you. 9 THE COURT: 10 minutes. Thank you. 10 (Recess) 11 THE COURT: Any matters to take up? 12 MS. POMERANTZ: Not from the government, your Honor. 13 MS. MENNINGER: No, your Honor. 14 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, should we get the witness? 15 THE COURT: Yes, he can come in. That's fine. He's been called. 17 Mr. Mulligan, you're welcome to come in, take your mask off. Once the jury comes in, I'll swear you in. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 (Continued on next page) 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016418 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 203 of 267 2231 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Government has called David Mulligan. 3 DAVID JAMES MULLIGAN, 4 called as a witness by the Government, 5 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 6 THE COURT: Thank you. Please be seated. Once 7 seated, please state and spell your name for the record. 8 THE WITNESS: My name is David James Mulligan, 9 D-a-v-i-d J-a-m-e-s M-u-l-l-i-g-a-n. 10 THE COURT: Thank you. You may inquire, 11 Ms. Pomerantz. 12 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION 14 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Mulligan. 16 A. Good afternoon. 17 Q. How old are you? 18 A. I'm 42. 19 Q. In what state were you born? 20 A. In Arizona. 21 Q. In what state did you grow up? 22 A. Arizona. 23 Q. How far did you go in school? 24 A. As far as completing a master's degree. 25 Q. What is your master's degree in? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013794 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 203 of 267 2231 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Government has called David Mulligan. 3 DAVID JAMES MULLIGAN, 4 called as a witness by the Government, 5 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 6 THE COURT: Thank you. Please be seated. Once 7 seated, please state and spell your name for the record. 8 THE WITNESS: My name is David James Mulligan, 9 D-a-v-i-d J-a-m-e-s M-u-l-l-i-g-a-n. 10 THE COURT: Thank you. You may inquire, 11 Ms. Pomerantz. 12 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION 14 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 15 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Mulligan. 16 A. Good afternoon. 17 Q. How old are you? 18 A. I'm 42. 19 Q. In what state were you born? 20 A. In Arizona. 21 Q. In what state did you grow up? 22 A. Arizona. 23 Q. How far did you go in school? 24 A. As far as completing a master's degree. 25 Q. What is your master's degree in? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016419 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 204 of 267 2232 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct 1 A. In special education. 2 Q. What kind of work do you do now? 3 A. Now I'm a baker. 4 Q. Did you go to high school? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. In what State did you go to high school? 7 A. Arizona. 8 Q. When you were in high school, who, if anyone, was your girlfriend? 9 10 A. Annie Farmer. 11 Q. Approximately when did you meet Annie Farmer? 12 A. I met her in the spring of 1996. 13 Q. Where did you meet Annie? 14 A. I met her at a prom party. 15 Q. What grade were you in when you met Annie? 16 A. I was a junior in high school. 17 Q. What grade was Annie in when you met her? 18 A. She was also a junior. 19 Q. When did you and Annie start dating? 20 A. We started dating in the fall of 1996. 21 Q. How old were you when you started dating Annie? 22 A. I was 17 years old. 23 Q. And about how old was Annie when you started dating? 24 A. She was also 17. 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, can we pull up what is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013795 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 204 of 267 2232 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct 1 A. In special education. 2 Q. What kind of work do you do now? 3 A. Now I'm a baker. 4 Q. Did you go to high school? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. In what State did you go to high school? 7 A. Arizona. 8 Q. When you were in high school, who, if anyone, was your girlfriend? 9 10 A. Annie Farmer. 11 Q. Approximately when did you meet Annie Farmer? 12 A. I met her in the spring of 1996. 13 Q. Where did you meet Annie? 14 A. I met her at a prom party. 15 Q. What grade were you in when you met Annie? 16 A. I was a junior in high school. 17 Q. What grade was Annie in when you met her? 18 A. She was also a junior. 19 Q. When did you and Annie start dating? 20 A. We started dating in the fall of 1996. 21 Q. How old were you when you started dating Annie? 22 A. I was 17 years old. 23 Q. And about how old was Annie when you started dating? 24 A. She was also 17. 25 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, can we pull up what is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016420 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 205 of 267 2233 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct already in evidence as Government Exhibit 101. 1 Q. Mr. Mulligan, do you recognize the person in this photograph? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Who is it? 4 A. Annie Farmer. 5 Q. Is this a fair and accurate photograph of Annie Farmer as she appeared when you met her in high school? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did Annie tell you where she went in the summer of 1996? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Did there come a time when Annie told you how the trip -- let me back up. Excuse me. 10 Q. Where did Annie tell you she went? 11 A. To Thailand. 12 Q. Did there come a time when Annie told you how the trip to Thailand was paid for? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What did she tell you? 15 A. She told me it was paid for by Jeffrey Epstein. 16 Q. Approximately when did she tell you that? 17 A. Sometime after we began dating. So in the fall or winter of 1996. 18 Q. For about how long were you and Annie romantically involved? 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013796 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 205 of 267 2233 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct already in evidence as Government Exhibit 101. 1 Q. Mr. Mulligan, do you recognize the person in this photograph? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Who is it? 4 A. Annie Farmer. 5 Q. Is this a fair and accurate photograph of Annie Farmer as she appeared when you met her in high school? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did Annie tell you where she went in the summer of 1996? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Did there come a time when Annie told you how the trip -- let me back up. Excuse me. 10 Q. Where did Annie tell you she went? 11 A. To Thailand. 12 Q. Did there come a time when Annie told you how the trip to Thailand was paid for? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What did she tell you? 15 A. She told me it was paid for by Jeffrey Epstein. 16 Q. Approximately when did she tell you that? 17 A. Sometime after we began dating. So in the fall or winter of 1996. 18 Q. For about how long were you and Annie romantically involved? 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016421 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 206 of 267 2234 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct 1 A. We dated on and off through the end of 2003. 2 Q. Did you keep in touch with Annie after you and Annie broke up? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What is the nature of your current relationship with Annie? 5 A. We're still friends. 6 Q. About how often do you and Annie communicate? 7 A. On average, probably about once a month. 8 Q. What, if any, conversations have you had with Annie about 9 the substance of your testimony here today? 10 A. None. 11 Q. Did you go to Annie's house while you were dating in high 12 school? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. During the time you dated Annie in high school, who did 15 Annie live with? 16 A. She lived with her mom and her sister, Ashley. 17 Q. Based on your observations, what did you understand to be 18 Annie's family's financial circumstances? 19 A. Her mom was a single mom and always working. So I would 20 say she was struggling to make ends meet. 21 Q. Did there come a time when Annie spoke with you about a 22 trip Annie took to New York? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. When did Annie first tell you about her trip to New York? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013797 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 206 of 267 2234 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct 1 A. We dated on and off through the end of 2003. 2 Q. Did you keep in touch with Annie after you and Annie broke up? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What is the nature of your current relationship with Annie? 5 A. We're still friends. 6 Q. About how often do you and Annie communicate? 7 A. On average, probably about once a month. 8 Q. What, if any, conversations have you had with Annie about 9 the substance of your testimony here today? 10 A. None. 11 Q. Did you go to Annie's house while you were dating in high 12 school? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. During the time you dated Annie in high school, who did 15 Annie live with? 16 A. She lived with her mom and her sister, Ashley. 17 Q. Based on your observations, what did you understand to be 18 Annie's family's financial circumstances? 19 A. Her mom was a single mom and always working. So I would 20 say she was struggling to make ends meet. 21 Q. Did there come a time when Annie spoke with you about a 22 trip Annie took to New York? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. When did Annie first tell you about her trip to New York? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016422 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 207 of 267 2235 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct 1 A. Sometime soon after we began dating. 2 Q. Who did Annie tell you she went to see in New York? 3 A. She went to visit her sister, Maria. 4 Q. Who, if anyone, did Annie tell you she met in New York? 5 A. She met Jeffrey Epstein on that trip. 6 Q. What, if anything, did Annie tell you she did with Jeffrey Epstein in New York? 7 A. She told me that she went out to a show with Maria and Jeffrey Epstein. 8 Q. What, if anything, did Annie tell you happened during the show? 9 A. I remember her telling me that Jeffrey was seated between the two sisters and that he reached out and touched her leg during the show. 10 Q. Did Annie tell you at that time how she felt about that? 11 A. Yes. She said she felt awkward and confused about it. 12 Q. Did she tell you why she felt awkward and confused about it? 13 A. Because Jeffrey Epstein had provided a lot of opportunities for her artistic career, and Annie felt that she couldn't really speak up or say anything, and she really didn't understand, I think, why it was happening in the moment. 14 Q. When you say her artistic career, whose artistic career are you referring to? 15 A. Her sister, Maria's. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013798 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 207 of 267 2235 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct 1 A. Sometime soon after we began dating. 2 Q. Who did Annie tell you she went to see in New York? 3 A. She went to visit her sister, Maria. 4 Q. Who, if anyone, did Annie tell you she met in New York? 5 A. She met Jeffrey Epstein on that trip. 6 Q. What, if anything, did Annie tell you she did with Jeffrey Epstein in New York? 7 A. She told me that she went out to a show with Maria and Jeffrey Epstein. 8 Q. What, if anything, did Annie tell you happened during the show? 9 A. I remember her telling me that Jeffrey was seated between the two sisters and that he reached out and touched her leg during the show. 10 Q. Did Annie tell you at that time how she felt about that? 11 A. Yes. She said she felt awkward and confused about it. 12 Q. Did she tell you why she felt awkward and confused about it? 13 A. Because Jeffrey Epstein had provided a lot of opportunities for her artistic career, and Annie felt that she couldn't really speak up or say anything, and she really didn't understand, I think, why it was happening in the moment. 14 Q. When you say her artistic career, whose artistic career are you referring to? 15 A. Her sister, Maria's. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016423 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 208 of 267 2236 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct 1 Q. Did there come a time when Annie spoke with you about a trip she took to New Mexico? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Approximately when did she first talk to you about the trip to New Mexico? 4 A. Soon after we began dating. So I would say in the fall or 5 winter of 1996. 6 Q. Is Annie's experience in New Mexico something that you and 7 Annie discussed once or more than once during the time you were 8 dating in high school? 9 A. More than once. 10 Q. Did Annie tell you all the details at once or did she tell 11 you more over time while you were in high school? 12 A. She told me more over time. 13 Q. How did Annie's trip to New Mexico first come up in 14 conversation between you and Annie? 15 A. It first came up when we were beginning to be physically 16 affectionate with each other. 17 Q. Can you describe for the jury Annie's demeanor? 18 MS. STERNHEIM: Objection. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 Q. You said this came up more than once in high school. In 21 general, when you were in high school, when did Annie talk to 22 you about these experiences? 23 A. At times, when we were being physically affectionate with 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013799 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 208 of 267 2236 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct 1 Q. Did there come a time when Annie spoke with you about a trip she took to New Mexico? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Approximately when did she first talk to you about the trip to New Mexico? 4 A. Soon after we began dating. So I would say in the fall or 5 winter of 1996. 6 Q. Is Annie's experience in New Mexico something that you and 7 Annie discussed once or more than once during the time you were 8 dating in high school? 9 A. More than once. 10 Q. Did Annie tell you all the details at once or did she tell 11 you more over time while you were in high school? 12 A. She told me more over time. 13 Q. How did Annie's trip to New Mexico first come up in 14 conversation between you and Annie? 15 A. It first came up when we were beginning to be physically 16 affectionate with each other. 17 Q. Can you describe for the jury Annie's demeanor? 18 MS. STERNHEIM: Objection. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 Q. You said this came up more than once in high school. In 21 general, when you were in high school, when did Annie talk to 22 you about these experiences? 23 A. At times, when we were being physically affectionate with 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016424 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 209 of 267 2237 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct each other. Q. While you and Annie were in high school, did Annie tell you when she went to New Mexico? A. Yes. Q. What did she tell you about when she went? A. She said that she went just before we had met. Q. What, if anything, did Annie tell you about where she stayed in New Mexico? A. She told me she stayed at Jeffrey Epstein's ranch. Q. Did she tell you where on the ranch she stayed? A. Yes. I remember that she had her own bedroom at the ranch. Q. What did Annie tell you about who she spent time with in New Mexico? A. The two people I remember her saying she spent time with were Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. Q. Did Annie tell you if anyone else was in New Mexico? A. No, there was no one else with her in New Mexico that I remember. Q. What did she tell you about that? A. She told me that she had expected to find other girls of her age and in similar situations to her as part of -- I guess what you could describe as an enrichment weekend of sorts, but she told me that when she arrived, she realized that she was the only girl there. Q. What, if anything, did Annie tell you about Maxwell? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013800 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 209 of 267 2237 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct each other. Q. While you and Annie were in high school, did Annie tell you when she went to New Mexico? A. Yes. Q. What did she tell you about when she went? A. She said that she went just before we had met. Q. What, if anything, did Annie tell you about where she stayed in New Mexico? A. She told me she stayed at Jeffrey Epstein's ranch. Q. Did she tell you where on the ranch she stayed? A. Yes. I remember that she had her own bedroom at the ranch. Q. What did Annie tell you about who she spent time with in New Mexico? A. The two people I remember her saying she spent time with were Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein. Q. Did Annie tell you if anyone else was in New Mexico? A. No, there was no one else with her in New Mexico that I remember. Q. What did she tell you about that? A. She told me that she had expected to find other girls of her age and in similar situations to her as part of -- I guess what you could describe as an enrichment weekend of sorts, but she told me that when she arrived, she realized that she was the only girl there. Q. What, if anything, did Annie tell you about Maxwell? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016425 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 210 of 267 2238 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct 1 A. She said that Maxwell was very charming, very pretty. She greeted her when she arrived. And I remember that they had a day around town where Maxwell took her shopping. 2 Q. Did Annie tell you if Maxwell bought her anything? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What did she tell you? 5 A. I remember she told me that Maxwell bought her a pair of cowboy boots. 6 Q. Did Annie tell you about her conversations with Maxwell in New Mexico in this time when you were dating in high school? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What did Annie tell you about her conversations with Maxwell? 9 A. I remember that Maxwell asked Annie if she had ever received a massage before, which Annie had not. 10 Q. Do you remember what Annie told you what happened next in the context of massage in terms of what Maxwell said to her? 11 A. Yes. She said that Maxwell basically told her that she was going to have the opportunity to have a massage and was telling her how enjoyable that it would be for Annie. 12 Q. While you and Annie were in high school, did Annie tell you about receiving a massage in New Mexico? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you remember all the details Annie told you about the massage today? 15 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013801 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 210 of 267 2238 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct 1 A. She said that Maxwell was very charming, very pretty. She greeted her when she arrived. And I remember that they had a day around town where Maxwell took her shopping. 2 Q. Did Annie tell you if Maxwell bought her anything? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What did she tell you? 5 A. I remember she told me that Maxwell bought her a pair of cowboy boots. 6 Q. Did Annie tell you about her conversations with Maxwell in New Mexico in this time when you were dating in high school? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What did Annie tell you about her conversations with Maxwell? 9 A. I remember that Maxwell asked Annie if she had ever received a massage before, which Annie had not. 10 Q. Do you remember what Annie told you what happened next in the context of massage in terms of what Maxwell said to her? 11 A. Yes. She said that Maxwell basically told her that she was going to have the opportunity to have a massage and was telling her how enjoyable that it would be for Annie. 12 Q. While you and Annie were in high school, did Annie tell you about receiving a massage in New Mexico? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you remember all the details Annie told you about the massage today? 15 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016426 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 211 of 267 2239 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct 1 A. I remember some of the details, but not all. 2 Q. Did Annie tell you if anyone touched her during the massage? 3 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Who did Annie tell you touched her during the massage? 6 A. Maxwell. 7 Q. What, if anything, did Annie tell you about where Annie was touched by Maxwell? 8 9 A. She told me that she was touched on the breasts. 10 Q. Did Annie tell you who touched her breasts? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Who was that? 13 A. Ghislaine Maxwell. 14 Q. While you and Annie were in high school, did Annie tell you how she felt while Maxwell was touching her breasts and giving her the massage? 15 16 17 A. Yes. She told me that she felt fearful and awkward and helpless. 18 19 Q. Did Annie tell you if she said anything -- 20 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Leading. 21 THE COURT: Sustained. 22 Q. What, if anything, did Annie tell you about whether she said anything to anyone after the massage? 23 24 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. 25 THE COURT: Overruled. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013802 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 211 of 267 2239 LCACmax7 1 A. I remember some of the details, but not all. 2 Q. Did Annie tell you if anyone touched her during the massage? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Who did Annie tell you touched her during the massage? 5 A. Maxwell. 6 Q. What, if anything, did Annie tell you about where Annie was touched by Maxwell? 7 A. She told me that she was touched on the breasts. 8 Q. Did Annie tell you who touched her breasts? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Who was that? 11 A. Ghislaine Maxwell. 12 Q. While you and Annie were in high school, did Annie tell you how she felt while Maxwell was touching her breasts and giving her the massage? 13 A. Yes. She told me that she felt fearful and awkward and helpless. 14 Q. Did Annie tell you if she said anything -- 15 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Leading. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 Q. What, if anything, did Annie tell you about whether she said anything to anyone after the massage? 18 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. 19 THE COURT: Overruled. 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 21 DOJ-OGR-00016427 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 212 of 267 2240 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct 1 A. She told me that she didn't have the courage to speak up and say anything because she was afraid of jeopardizing any of her sister Maria's opportunities with Jeffrey Epstein. 2 Q. While you and Annie were in high school, did Annie tell you about any other experiences with Jeffrey Epstein in New Mexico? 3 A. She also told me that, during the massage -- 4 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, if I may, with 5 counsel's -- this is what we had conferred on. I just want to 6 ask a more leading question, if I may? 7 MS. MENNINGER: That's fine. 8 Q. While you and Annie were in high school, did Annie tell you about any other experiences with Jeffrey Epstein in her bedroom in New Mexico? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What did she tell you? 11 A. She said that, after the massage, that Jeffrey Epstein followed her. He had been present during the massage -- 12 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. I'll stop the response. Next 14 question. 15 Q. After you said that Annie told you that he followed her, where did Annie tell you that he followed her? 16 A. Into her bedroom. 17 Q. And what did Annie tell you happened in the bedroom? 18 A. That Jeffrey Epstein climbed into bed with her and 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013803 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 212 of 267 2240 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct 1 A. She told me that she didn't have the courage to speak up and say anything because she was afraid of jeopardizing any of her sister Maria's opportunities with Jeffrey Epstein. 2 Q. While you and Annie were in high school, did Annie tell you about any other experiences with Jeffrey Epstein in New Mexico? 3 A. She also told me that, during the massage -- 4 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, if I may, with 5 counsel's -- this is what we had conferred on. I just want to 6 ask a more leading question, if I may? 7 MS. MENNINGER: That's fine. 8 Q. While you and Annie were in high school, did Annie tell you about any other experiences with Jeffrey Epstein in her bedroom in New Mexico? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What did she tell you? 11 A. She said that, after the massage, that Jeffrey Epstein followed her. He had been present during the massage -- 12 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. I'll stop the response. Next 14 question. 15 Q. After you said that Annie told you that he followed her, where did Annie tell you that he followed her? 16 A. Into her bedroom. 17 Q. And what did Annie tell you happened in the bedroom? 18 A. That Jeffrey Epstein climbed into bed with her and 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016428 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 213 of 267 2241 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct attempted to smuggle. Q. And what did she tell you happened after he was trying to snuggle with her? A. She told me that she got out of bed and locked herself in the bathroom. Q. Did Annie talk to you about what happened in New Mexico after high school? A. Yes. Q. When did she talk to you about what happened in New Mexico? A. I remember her talking to me about it in early 2003. Q. What was Annie's demeanor when you spoke with her when she talked to you about what happened in New Mexico in 2003? MS. MENNINGER: Objection. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. In 2003 when Annie talked to you about her experiences with Maxwell and Epstein in New Mexico, without going into the details, when did this come up? A. This came up at a time where we were being physically affectionate with each other. MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have one moment, please? THE COURT: You may. MS. POMERANTZ: Nothing further, Judge. THE COURT: Ms. Sternheim. MS. STERNHEIM: Briefly, Judge. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013804 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 213 of 267 2241 LCACmax7 Mulligan - direct attempted to smuggle. Q. And what did she tell you happened after he was trying to snuggle with her? A. She told me that she got out of bed and locked herself in the bathroom. Q. Did Annie talk to you about what happened in New Mexico after high school? A. Yes. Q. When did she talk to you about what happened in New Mexico? A. I remember her talking to me about it in early 2003. Q. What was Annie's demeanor when you spoke with her when she talked to you about what happened in New Mexico in 2003? MS. MENNINGER: Objection. THE COURT: Sustained. Q. In 2003 when Annie talked to you about her experiences with Maxwell and Epstein in New Mexico, without going into the details, when did this come up? A. This came up at a time where we were being physically affectionate with each other. MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have one moment, please? THE COURT: You may. MS. POMERANTZ: Nothing further, Judge. THE COURT: Ms. Sternheim. MS. STERNHEIM: Briefly, Judge. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016429 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 214 of 267 2242 LCACmax7 Mulligan - cross 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION 2 BY MS. STERNHEIM: 3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Mulligan. 4 A. Hello. 5 Q. You're telling this jury things you remember from over 25 years ago; correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. You remember individuals' names? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you've retained that over 25 years? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you've talked with Ms. Farmer about this? 12 A. Over time, yes. 13 Q. And you've also seen things in the media about it? 14 A. Some things, yes. 15 Q. Well, you must have been curious if there were things in the media about your close friend, Ms. Farmer; correct? 16 A. Yes, but I'm not much of a news watcher, so -- 17 Q. Well, put news aside. There were documentaries involved in this case; correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you're aware of those documentaries; correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And Annie told you she was in certain documentaries, didn't she? 22 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013805 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 214 of 267 2242 LCACmax7 Mulligan - cross 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION 2 BY MS. STERNHEIM: 3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Mulligan. 4 A. Hello. 5 Q. You're telling this jury things you remember from over 25 years ago; correct? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. You remember individuals' names? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you've retained that over 25 years? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you've talked with Ms. Farmer about this? 12 A. Over time, yes. 13 Q. And you've also seen things in the media about it? 14 A. Some things, yes. 15 Q. Well, you must have been curious if there were things in the media about your close friend, Ms. Farmer; correct? 16 A. Yes, but I'm not much of a news watcher, so -- 17 Q. Well, put news aside. There were documentaries involved in this case; correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you're aware of those documentaries; correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And Annie told you she was in certain documentaries, didn't she? 22 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016430 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 215 of 267 2243 LCACmax7 Mulligan - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And she told you that she was on certain podcasts, didn't she? 3 A. I don't recall telling me that she was on any podcasts. 4 Q. Well, she told you that she was in the media; correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. She told you she had been interviewed by the media; correct? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. She told you she had been in touch with other people who claimed to have been abused by Jeffrey Epstein? 9 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 10 THE COURT: Overruled. 11 MS. POMERANTZ: Hearsay, your Honor. Just to state the -- 12 THE COURT: Overruled. 13 A. Can you repeat the question, please. 14 Q. She told you that she had been in touch with other individuals who claim to have been abused by Jeffrey Epstein? 15 A. I don't recall Annie telling me about any contact with other victims, no. 16 Q. She told you that, at a certain point, she could make a lot of money off of this case? 17 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. Hearsay. 18 Your Honor, withdrawn. 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013806 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 215 of 267 2243 LCACmax7 Mulligan - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And she told you that she was on certain podcasts, didn't she? 3 A. I don't recall telling me that she was on any podcasts. 4 Q. Well, she told you that she was in the media; correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. She told you she had been interviewed by the media; correct? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. She told you she had been in touch with other people who claimed to have been abused by Jeffrey Epstein? 9 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. 10 THE COURT: Overruled. 11 MS. POMERANTZ: Hearsay, your Honor. Just to state the -- 12 THE COURT: Overruled. 13 A. Can you repeat the question, please. 14 Q. She told you that she had been in touch with other individuals who claim to have been abused by Jeffrey Epstein? 15 A. I don't recall Annie telling me about any contact with other victims, no. 16 Q. She told you that, at a certain point, she could make a lot of money off of this case? 17 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection. Hearsay. 18 Your Honor, withdrawn. 19 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016431 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 216 of 267 2244 LCACmax7 Mulligan - cross 1 THE COURT: I'll provide a limiting instruction if you want, but go ahead. 2 Q. No, Annie never talked to me about any money that she could 3 A. receive from this case. 4 Q. You don't know that Annie received one and a half million 5 dollars for what she claimed happened in New Mexico in the 6 movie theater? 7 A. No, I've never been told that. 8 Q. You've never read about that? 9 A. I've never read about that. 10 Q. You don't follow anything about this case? 11 A. I don't follow anything in the news about this case. 12 Q. And when was the last time you spoke to Annie about this 13 case? 14 A. About this case, I would estimate probably about a year 15 ago. 16 Q. And you knew that she was going to be a witness in this 17 case; correct? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. And you knew when you were contacted by the government that 20 they wanted you to be a witness because Annie was going to be a 21 witness? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. And that's why you're here today; correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013807 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 216 of 267 2244 LCACmax7 Mulligan - cross 1 THE COURT: I'll provide a limiting instruction if you want, but go ahead. 2 Q. No, Annie never talked to me about any money that she could 3 A. receive from this case. 4 Q. You don't know that Annie received one and a half million 5 dollars for what she claimed happened in New Mexico in the 6 movie theater? 7 A. No, I've never been told that. 8 Q. You've never read about that? 9 A. I've never read about that. 10 Q. You don't follow anything about this case? 11 A. I don't follow anything in the news about this case. 12 Q. And when was the last time you spoke to Annie about this 13 case? 14 A. About this case, I would estimate probably about a year 15 ago. 16 Q. And you knew that she was going to be a witness in this 17 case; correct? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. And you knew when you were contacted by the government that 20 they wanted you to be a witness because Annie was going to be a 21 witness? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. And that's why you're here today; correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016432 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 217 of 267 2245 LCACmax7 Mulligan - redirect 1 MS. STERNHEIM: May I have a moment? 2 THE COURT: You may. 3 Q. You've spoken to the media about this case, haven't you? 4 A. No, I haven't about this case. 5 Q. You weren't contacted by the New York Times? 6 A. I was asked by the New York Times to corroborate a story, yes. 7 8 Q. And you spoke to them; correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. So you spoke to the media about this case; correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. And you recently got married, didn't you? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And Annie Farmer was at your wedding; correct? 15 A. That's correct. 16 MS. STERNHEIM: No further questions. 17 THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz. 18 MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor. Just briefly. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MS. POMERANTZ: May I inquire your Honor? 21 THE COURT: You may. 22 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 23 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 24 Q. Mr. Mulligan, defense counsel asked you about your memory 25 of conversations with Annie. Do you recall that? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013808 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 217 of 267 2245 LCACmax7 Mulligan - redirect 1 MS. STERNHEIM: May I have a moment? 2 THE COURT: You may. 3 Q. You've spoken to the media about this case, haven't you? 4 A. No, I haven't about this case. 5 Q. You weren't contacted by the New York Times? 6 A. I was asked by the New York Times to corroborate a story, yes. 7 8 Q. And you spoke to them; correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. So you spoke to the media about this case; correct? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. And you recently got married, didn't you? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And Annie Farmer was at your wedding; correct? 15 A. That's correct. 16 MS. STERNHEIM: No further questions. 17 THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz. 18 MS. POMERANTZ: Yes, your Honor. Just briefly. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MS. POMERANTZ: May I inquire your Honor? 21 THE COURT: You may. 22 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 23 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 24 Q. Mr. Mulligan, defense counsel asked you about your memory 25 of conversations with Annie. Do you recall that? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016433 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 218 of 267 2246 LCACmax7 Mulligan - redirect 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Why does what Annie told you about New Mexico stand out in your memory? 3 A. I would say they were very memorable moments and formative 4 moments in our relationship. They led to very emotional 5 conversations that I remember well to this day. 6 Q. Did anyone tell you what to say here today? 7 A. No. 8 Q. What are you here to do today? 9 A. To tell the truth. 10 11 MS. POMERANTZ: No further questions. 12 THE COURT: Ms. Sternheim. 13 MS. STERNHEIM: No. Thank you. 14 THE COURT: Mr. Mulligan. Thank you, you're excused. 15 You may step down. 16 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 17 (Witness excused) 18 THE COURT: Government may call its next witness. 19 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government calls 20 Janice Swain. 21 THE COURT: Janice Swain may come forward. Good 22 afternoon, Ms. Swain. 23 JANICE SWAIN, 24 called as a witness by the Government, 25 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013809 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 218 of 267 2246 LCACmax7 Mulligan - redirect 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Why does what Annie told you about New Mexico stand out in your memory? 3 A. I would say they were very memorable moments and formative moments in our relationship. They led to very emotional conversations that I remember well to this day. 4 5 6 7 Q. Did anyone tell you what to say here today? 8 A. No. 9 Q. What are you here to do today? 10 A. To tell the truth. 11 MS. POMERANTZ: No further questions. 12 THE COURT: Ms. Sternheim. 13 MS. STERNHEIM: No. Thank you. 14 THE COURT: Mr. Mulligan. Thank you, you're excused. 15 You may step down. 16 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 17 (Witness excused) 18 THE COURT: Government may call its next witness. 19 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, the government calls 20 Janice Swain. 21 THE COURT: Janice Swain may come forward. Good 22 afternoon, Ms. Swain. 23 JANICE SWAIN, 24 called as a witness by the Government, 25 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016434 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 219 of 267 2247 LCACmax7 Swain - direct 1 THE COURT: Please be seated. If you remove your mask and please state and spell your name for the record. 3 THE WITNESS: Janice Swain, J-a-n-i-c-e S-w-a-i-n. 4 THE COURT: Ms. Swain, I'll ask you to please pull the microphone up to you and you need to speak directly into it. 5 Please keep your voice up. Thank you so much. 6 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. 8 THE COURT: Go ahead, Ms. Pomerantz, you may inquire. 9 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 10 DIRECT EXAMINATION 11 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 12 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Swain. 13 A. Good afternoon. 14 Q. If I can ask you to speak directly into the microphone, I want to make sure everyone can hear you. 15 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. Thank you. Ms. Swain, how old are you? 18 A. I'm 71. 19 Q. How far did you go in school? 20 A. High school. 21 Q. What kind of work do you do now? 22 A. I'm a sales representative. 23 Q. How many children do you have? 24 A. I have three. 25 Q. What is the name of your oldest child? 26 27 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013810 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 219 of 267 2247 LCACmax7 1 THE COURT: Please be seated. If you remove your mask 2 and please state and spell your name for the record. 3 THE WITNESS: Janice Swain, J-a-n-i-c-e S-w-a-i-n. 4 THE COURT: Ms. Swain, I'll ask you to please pull the 5 microphone up to you and you need to speak directly into it. 6 Please keep your voice up. Thank you so much. 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. 8 THE COURT: Go ahead, Ms. Pomerantz, you may inquire. 9 MS. POMERANTZ: Thank you, your Honor. 10 DIRECT EXAMINATION 11 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 12 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Swain. 13 A. Good afternoon. 14 Q. If I can ask you to speak directly into the microphone, I 15 want to make sure everyone can hear you. 16 A. Okay. 17 Q. Thank you. Ms. Swain, how old are you? 18 A. I'm 71. 19 Q. How far did you go in school? 20 A. High school. 21 Q. What kind of work do you now? 22 A. I'm a sales representative. 23 Q. How many children do you have? 24 A. I have three. 25 Q. What is the name of your oldest child? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016435 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 220 of 267 2248 LCACmax7 Swain - direct 1 A. Maria Farmer. 2 Q. In what year was Maria born? 3 A. In 1969. 4 Q. What is the name of your middle child? 5 A. Annie Farmer. 6 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, at this time, I would 7 request that the jurors be permitted to take out their binders 8 and turn to Government Exhibit 13, which is in evidence under 9 seal, and I would ask that the witness turn to Government 10 Exhibit 13. 11 MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Please open your binder to GX13. The 13 witness is also directed -- is it a binder? 14 MS. POMERANTZ: I think it's a folder, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: You have a folder there, Ms. Swain? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 17 THE COURT: Document marked GX13. 18 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 19 Q. Ms. Swain, do you have Government Exhibit 13? 20 A. I do. 21 Q. What is that? 22 A. Annie's birth certificate. 23 Q. And without stating it, is Annie's date of birth reflected 24 on that birth certificate? 25 A. It is. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013811 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 220 of 267 2248 LCACmax7 Swain - direct 1 A. Maria Farmer. 2 Q. In what year was Maria born? 3 A. In 1969. 4 Q. What is the name of your middle child? 5 A. Annie Farmer. 6 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, at this time, I would 7 request that the jurors be permitted to take out their binders 8 and turn to Government Exhibit 13, which is in evidence under 9 seal, and I would ask that the witness turn to Government 10 Exhibit 13. 11 MS. MENNINGER: No objection, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Please open your binder to GX13. The 13 witness is also directed -- is it a binder? 14 MS. POMERANTZ: I think it's a folder, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: You have a folder there, Ms. Swain? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 17 THE COURT: Document marked GX13. 18 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 19 Q. Ms. Swain, do you have Government Exhibit 13? 20 A. I do. 21 Q. What is that? 22 A. Annie's birth certificate. 23 Q. And without stating it, is Annie's date of birth reflected 24 on that birth certificate? 25 A. It is. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016436 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 221 of 267 2249 LCACmax7 Swain - direct 1 MS. POMERANTZ: We can put that away. 2 Q. In what state was Annie born? 3 A. Missouri. 4 Q. In what states did Annie grow up? 5 A. In Missouri, Florida, and -- I mean Arizona. 6 Q. In what State did Annie go to high school? 7 A. Arizona. 8 Q. Approximately when did you move to Arizona? 9 A. In 1986 or 7. 10 Q. I want focus on 1995. In 1995, what did you do for work? 11 A. I was a sales representative. 12 Q. Who did you live with in 1995? 13 A. I lived with Annie and my younger daughter. 14 Q. Did you live with your children's father in 1995? 15 A. No. 16 Q. What was your marital status in 1995? 17 A. I was divorced. 18 Q. Did you receive financial support from your children's father? 19 A. No. 20 Q. What were your financial circumstances in 1995? 21 A. I was a single mom, had very limited income. 22 Q. In 1995, was Annie in school? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What grade was she in? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013812 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 221 of 267 2249 LCACmax7 Swain - direct 1 MS. POMERANTZ: We can put that away. 2 Q. In what state was Annie born? 3 A. Missouri. 4 Q. In what states did Annie grow up? 5 A. In Missouri, Florida, and -- I mean Arizona. 6 Q. In what State did Annie go to high school? 7 A. Arizona. 8 Q. Approximately when did you move to Arizona? 9 A. In 1986 or 7. 10 Q. I want focus on 1995. In 1995, what did you do for work? 11 A. I was a sales representative. 12 Q. Who did you live with in 1995? 13 A. I lived with Annie and my younger daughter. 14 Q. Did you live with your children's father in 1995? 15 A. No. 16 Q. What was your marital status in 1995? 17 A. I was divorced. 18 Q. Did you receive financial support from your children's father? 19 A. No. 20 Q. What were your financial circumstances in 1995? 21 A. I was a single mom, had very limited income. 22 Q. In 1995, was Annie in school? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What grade was she in? 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016437 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 222 of 267 2250 LCACmax7 Swain - direct 1 A. She was a junior in high school. 2 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, can we please pull up what's already in evidence as Government Exhibit 101. 3 Q. Ms. Swain, who's the person in this photograph? 4 A. Annie. 5 Q. Is this a fair and accurate photograph of Annie when she 6 was in high school? 7 A. Yes. 8 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can take that down. 9 Thank you very much. 10 Q. At that time, did you have conversations with Annie about 11 preparing for college? 12 A. Yes, we talked about college. 13 Q. What was your plan for paying for college for Annie? 14 A. Student loans. 15 Q. In 1995, where was Maria living? 16 A. In New York. 17 Q. What did Maria do for work in New York? 18 A. She was an artist. 19 Q. Who did Maria work for in New York? 20 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay. 21 THE COURT: Sustained. 22 Q. Did there come a time when you spoke with Jeffrey Epstein 23 on the phone? 24 A. Yes. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013813 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 222 of 267 2250 LCACmax7 Swain - direct 1 A. She was a junior in high school. 2 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, can we please pull up what's already in evidence as Government Exhibit 101. 3 Q. Ms. Swain, who's the person in this photograph? 4 A. Annie. 5 Q. Is this a fair and accurate photograph of Annie when she 6 was in high school? 7 A. Yes. 8 MS. POMERANTZ: Ms. Drescher, we can take that down. 9 Thank you very much. 10 Q. At that time, did you have conversations with Annie about 11 preparing for college? 12 A. Yes, we talked about college. 13 Q. What was your plan for paying for college for Annie? 14 A. Student loans. 15 Q. In 1995, where was Maria living? 16 A. In New York. 17 Q. What did Maria do for work in New York? 18 A. She was an artist. 19 Q. Who did Maria work for in New York? 20 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay. 21 THE COURT: Sustained. 22 Q. Did there come a time when you spoke with Jeffrey Epstein 23 on the phone? 24 A. Yes. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016438 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 223 of 267 2251 LCACmax7 Swain - direct 1 Q. Have you ever met Jeffrey Epstein in person? 2 A. No, I haven't. 3 Q. About when was the first time you spoke with Epstein on the 4 phone? 5 A. In 1995. 6 Q. And how did that come about? 7 A. He called to tell me that he was inviting Maria to go on 8 his plane to Florida for a work trip. 9 Q. Did you speak to Epstein once on the phone or more than 10 once on the phone? 11 A. More than once. 12 Q. And during these first few calls, what did Epstein talk to 13 you about? 14 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay. 15 THE COURT: Overruled. I'm sorry. Can I get a 16 timeframe? 17 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I believe that she had 18 testified about 1995. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Overruled. 20 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 21 Q. Ms. Swain, after Epstein called you in 1995, what did 22 Epstein talk to you about during the first few calls that he 23 made to you? 24 A. About Maria's art career and her talent. 25 Q. At the time you spoke with him, what was your understanding SOUTERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013814 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 223 of 267 2251 LCACmax7 Swain - direct 1 Q. Have you ever met Jeffrey Epstein in person? 2 A. No, I haven't. 3 Q. About when was the first time you spoke with Epstein on the 4 phone? 5 A. In 1995. 6 Q. And how did that come about? 7 A. He called to tell me that he was inviting Maria to go on 8 his plane to Florida for a work trip. 9 Q. Did you speak to Epstein once on the phone or more than 10 once on the phone? 11 A. More than once. 12 Q. And during these first few calls, what did Epstein talk to 13 you about? 14 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay. 15 THE COURT: Overruled. I'm sorry. Can I get a 16 timeframe? 17 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, I believe that she had 18 testified about 1995. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Overruled. 20 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 21 Q. Ms. Swain, after Epstein called you in 1995, what did 22 Epstein talk to you about during the first few calls that he 23 made to you? 24 A. About Maria's art career and her talent. 25 Q. At the time you spoke with him, what was your understanding SOUTERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016439 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 224 of 267 2252 LCACmax7 Swain - direct 1 of who Epstein was? 2 A. That he was Maria's boss. 3 Q. About how many calls in total did you have with Epstein? 4 A. At least six. 5 Q. What, if anything, did Epstein call you about, other than Maria? 6 7 A. He called me before the Christmas holiday to ask if I would allow Annie to come to New York to visit Maria as a gift to Maria for Christmas. 8 9 10 Q. Did you have one call or multiple calls with Jeffrey Epstein about Annie? 11 12 A. Multiple. 13 Q. When you had calls with Epstein, what, if anything, did he discuss with you about Annie's education? 14 15 A. He just said that he had -- he could probably help guide her in selecting a college and that he would like to introduce her to some other people who could help with that. 16 17 18 Q. Approximately when did Epstein first call you about Annie? 19 A. In December of '95. 20 Q. Based on the call, what was Epstein offering to do? 21 A. The first call, to offer her a flight to New York to visit Maria. 22 23 Q. Did you give Annie permission to go to New York? 24 A. I did. 25 Q. How come? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013815 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 224 of 267 2252 LCACmax7 Swain - direct 1 of who Epstein was? 2 A. That he was Maria's boss. 3 Q. About how many calls in total did you have with Epstein? 4 A. At least six. 5 Q. What, if anything, did Epstein call you about, other than Maria? 6 7 A. He called me before the Christmas holiday to ask if I would allow Annie to come to New York to visit Maria as a gift to Maria for Christmas. 8 9 10 Q. Did you have one call or multiple calls with Jeffrey Epstein about Annie? 11 12 A. Multiple. 13 Q. When you had calls with Epstein, what, if anything, did he discuss with you about Annie's education? 14 15 A. He just said that he had -- he could probably help guide her in selecting a college and that he would like to introduce her to some other people who could help with that. 16 17 18 Q. Approximately when did Epstein first call you about Annie? 19 A. In December of '95. 20 Q. Based on the call, what was Epstein offering to do? 21 A. The first call, to offer her a flight to New York to visit Maria. 22 23 Q. Did you give Annie permission to go to New York? 24 A. I did. 25 Q. How come? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016440 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 225 of 267 2253 LCACmax7 Swain - direct 1 A. I thought it would be a good opportunity for the sisters to be together. 2 Q. Did Annie go to New York? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Approximately when did Annie go to New York? 5 A. Over the Christmas holiday. 6 Q. Was Annie in school at the time she went to New York? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. In what grade was she in? 9 A. She was a junior. 10 Q. Was school in session? 11 A. Yes -- no. It was Christmas break. 12 Q. When Annie returned from New York, did Annie tell you about the trip to New York? 13 A. She didn't talk too much about it. She told me a few places they visited and she did say that Epstein took her and Maria to the movies to see a movie. 14 Q. Did Annie travel again during her junior year after the trip to New York? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Where did Annie go? 17 A. She went to Epstein's ranch in New Mexico. 18 Q. How did it come about that Annie went to New Mexico? 19 A. He called and told me that he was planning a get-together, a retreat of sorts for a group of 20 to 25 students that were SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013816 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 225 of 267 2253 LCACmax7 Swain - direct 1 A. I thought it would be a good opportunity for the sisters to be together. 2 Q. Did Annie go to New York? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Approximately when did Annie go to New York? 5 A. Over the Christmas holiday. 6 Q. Was Annie in school at the time she went to New York? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. In what grade was she in? 9 A. She was a junior. 10 Q. Was school in session? 11 A. Yes -- no. It was Christmas break. 12 Q. When Annie returned from New York, did Annie tell you about the trip to New York? 13 A. She didn't talk too much about it. She told me a few places they visited and she did say that Epstein took her and Maria to the movies to see a movie. 14 Q. Did Annie travel again during her junior year after the trip to New York? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Where did Annie go? 17 A. She went to Epstein's ranch in New Mexico. 18 Q. How did it come about that Annie went to New Mexico? 19 A. He called and told me that he was planning a get-together, a retreat of sorts for a group of 20 to 25 students that were SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016441 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 226 of 267 2254 LCACmax7 Swain - direct academically gifted and he thought they could discuss their college plans and possibly going abroad to work on their résumés for college. Q. When you said he called me, who are you referring to? A. Jeffrey Epstein. Q. What, if anything, did you ask Epstein on the call? A. I asked if him, first of all, if he had enough space to accommodate that many students and he said yes, they had cabins that would accommodate 20 to 25 students. And then I asked if it would be boys and girls and he said yes, and so I asked who would be chaperoning the girls. Q. And what did Epstein say in response? A. He said his wife, Ghislaine, would be. Q. What did Epstein tell you that Annie would be -- MS. POMERANTZ: Withdrawn, your Honor. Q. What, if anything, made you feel comfortable letting Annie go to New Mexico? A. I felt like it was a good opportunity for her to be around other students who were planning trips. And he told me that he was funding the trips for all the students. So it seemed like a generous offer and, at that point, I trusted that it would be okay. (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013817 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 226 of 267 2254 LCACmax7 Swain - direct academically gifted and he thought they could discuss their college plans and possibly going abroad to work on their résumés for college. Q. When you said he called me, who are you referring to? A. Jeffrey Epstein. Q. What, if anything, did you ask Epstein on the call? A. I asked if him, first of all, if he had enough space to accommodate that many students and he said yes, they had cabins that would accommodate 20 to 25 students. And then I asked if it would be boys and girls and he said yes, and so I asked who would be chaperoning the girls. Q. And what did Epstein say in response? A. He said his wife, Ghislaine, would be. Q. What did Epstein tell you that Annie would be -- MS. POMERANTZ: Withdrawn, your Honor. Q. What, if anything, made you feel comfortable letting Annie go to New Mexico? A. I felt like it was a good opportunity for her to be around other students who were planning trips. And he told me that he was funding the trips for all the students. So it seemed like a generous offer and, at that point, I trusted that it would be okay. (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016442 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 227 of 267 2255 LCAVMAX8 Swain - direct 1 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 2 Q. Did you pay for Annie's trip to New Mexico? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Who paid for the trip? 5 A. Epstein. 6 Q. Did you talk to Maxwell on the phone about the trip to New Mexico? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Have you ever spoken with Maxwell? 9 A. I have not. 10 Q. Have you ever met Maxwell in person? 11 A. No, I haven't. 12 Q. Did Annie go to New Mexico? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Approximately when did Annie go to New Mexico? 15 A. It was in the spring of '96. 16 Q. Approximately how long after your call with Epstein did Annie go to New Mexico? 17 A. I'm not sure if I talked to him one or two times about -- before her trip, but probably the last time I spoke with them was about maybe a few days to a week before her trip. 18 Q. For approximately how long was Annie in New Mexico? 19 A. For a weekend, Friday night to Sunday night. 20 Q. How did Annie get to the airport to fly to New Mexico? 21 A. I took her. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013818 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 227 of 267 2255 LCAVMAX8 Swain - direct 1 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 2 Q. Did you pay for Annie's trip to New Mexico? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Who paid for the trip? 5 A. Epstein. 6 Q. Did you talk to Maxwell on the phone about the trip to New Mexico? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Have you ever spoken with Maxwell? 9 A. I have not. 10 Q. Have you ever met Maxwell in person? 11 A. No, I haven't. 12 Q. Did Annie go to New Mexico? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Approximately when did Annie go to New Mexico? 15 A. It was in the spring of '96. 16 Q. Approximately how long after your call with Epstein did Annie go to New Mexico? 17 A. I'm not sure if I talked to him one or two times about -- before her trip, but probably the last time I spoke with them was about maybe a few days to a week before her trip. 18 Q. For approximately how long was Annie in New Mexico? 19 A. For a weekend, Friday night to Sunday night. 20 Q. How did Annie get to the airport to fly to New Mexico? 21 A. I took her. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016443 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 228 of 267 2256 LCAVMAX8 Swain - direct 1 Q. How did Annie get home from the airport when she returned to Arizona from New Mexico? 2 A. I picked her up. 3 Q. Did you speak to Annie while she was in New Mexico? 4 A. No, I didn't. 5 Q. What, if anything, did Annie have when she returned from the trip to New Mexico? 6 A. She had a new pair of black boots. 7 Q. Did Annie tell you who bought the boots for her? 8 A. Yes, she said Ghislaine took her shopping and bought the boots. 9 Q. Based on your observations, how would you describe Annie's demeanor when you picked her up from the airport? 10 A. She was very quiet and withdrawn. She didn't want to talk and she seemed very tired. 11 Q. What did Annie do in the summer of 1996? 12 A. She went on a trip that -- one of the trips that had been discussed to Thailand and Vietnam. 13 Q. What was Annie doing in Thailand and Vietnam? 14 A. I think they worked on like an orphanage and a school. 15 Q. Did you pay for Annie's trip to Thailand and Vietnam? 16 A. No, I didn't. 17 Q. Who paid for her trip to Thailand and Vietnam? 18 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. 19 Foundation, your Honor. 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 21 DOJ-OGR-00013819 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 228 of 267 2256 LCAVMAX8 Swain - direct 1 Q. How did Annie get home from the airport when she returned to Arizona from New Mexico? 2 A. I picked her up. 3 Q. Did you speak to Annie while she was in New Mexico? 4 A. No, I didn't. 5 Q. What, if anything, did Annie have when she returned from the trip to New Mexico? 6 A. She had a new pair of black boots. 7 Q. Did Annie tell you who bought the boots for her? 8 A. Yes, she said Ghislaine took her shopping and bought the boots. 9 Q. Based on your observations, how would you describe Annie's demeanor when you picked her up from the airport? 10 A. She was very quiet and withdrawn. She didn't want to talk and she seemed very tired. 11 Q. What did Annie do in the summer of 1996? 12 A. She went on a trip that -- one of the trips that had been discussed to Thailand and Vietnam. 13 Q. What was Annie doing in Thailand and Vietnam? 14 A. I think they worked on like an orphanage and a school. 15 Q. Did you pay for Annie's trip to Thailand and Vietnam? 16 A. No, I didn't. 17 Q. Who paid for her trip to Thailand and Vietnam? 18 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. 19 Foundation, your Honor. 20 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 21 DOJ-OGR-00016444 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 229 of 267 2257 LCAVMAX8 Swain - direct 1 THE COURT: All right. Sustained. 2 Q. Did Annie tell you who paid for her trip to Thailand and Vietnam? 4 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: I'll allow the question. 6 A. She raised -- 7 THE COURT: Sorry. Just a yes or no to the question. 8 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. 9 Q. The question -- 10 MS. POMERANTZ: I'll repeat it, if I may, your Honor? 11 THE COURT: Sure. 12 Q. Did Annie tell you who paid for her trip to Thailand and Vietnam? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Who did she tell you paid for the trip? 16 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Foundation for that. 17 THE COURT: Foundation is the objection? 18 MS. MENNINGER: It's hearsay foundation. 19 MS. POMERANTZ: Prior consistent statement, your Honor. 20 MS. MENNINGER: It's not, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Hearsay -- sustained. 23 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 24 Q. You said earlier that Annie seemed tired and withdrawn after the New Mexico trip. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013820 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 229 of 267 2257 LCAVMAX8 Swain - direct 1 THE COURT: All right. Sustained. 2 Q. Did Annie tell you who paid for her trip to Thailand and Vietnam? 4 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: I'll allow the question. 6 A. She raised -- 7 THE COURT: Sorry. Just a yes or no to the question. 8 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. 9 Q. The question -- 10 MS. POMERANTZ: I'll repeat it, if I may, your Honor? 11 THE COURT: Sure. 12 Q. Did Annie tell you who paid for her trip to Thailand and Vietnam? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Who did she tell you paid for the trip? 16 MS. MENNINGER: Objection. Foundation for that. 17 THE COURT: Foundation is the objection? 18 MS. MENNINGER: It's hearsay foundation. 19 MS. POMERANTZ: Prior consistent statement, your Honor. 21 MS. MENNINGER: It's not, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Hearsay -- sustained. 23 BY MS. POMERANTZ: 24 Q. You said earlier that Annie seemed tired and withdrawn after the New Mexico trip. 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016445 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 230 of 267 2258 LCAVMAX8 Swain - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did there come a time when you asked her about the trip again? 3 4 A. Other than the night I brought her home? I tried to talk to her that night, and she said she was too tired to talk. 5 6 Q. Did you ask her about the trip once or more than once? 7 A. More than once. 8 Q. Did there come a time when you spoke with her about the trip to New Mexico after she returned from Thailand and Vietnam in the summer of 1996? 9 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. What did you ask her? 13 A. I asked her what happened when she was in New Mexico. 14 Q. What did Annie say in response? 15 A. She said, I don't want to talk about it. And I'm just not going to let it ruin my life. 16 17 Q. Based on your observations, how would you describe Annie's demeanor when you tried to talk to her about New Mexico? 18 19 A. She's just always very evasive and she didn't -- she just didn't want to discuss it. And she would always say the same thing: I'm not going to let it ruin my life. 20 21 22 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have just one moment? 23 24 THE COURT: You may. 25 (Counsel conferred) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013821 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 230 of 267 2258 LCAVMAX8 Swain - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did there come a time when you asked her about the trip again? 3 4 A. Other than the night I brought her home? I tried to talk to her that night, and she said she was too tired to talk. 5 6 Q. Did you ask her about the trip once or more than once? 7 A. More than once. 8 Q. Did there come a time when you spoke with her about the trip to New Mexico after she returned from Thailand and Vietnam in the summer of 1996? 9 10 A. Yes. 11 12 Q. What did you ask her? 13 A. I asked her what happened when she was in New Mexico. 14 Q. What did Annie say in response? 15 A. She said, I don't want to talk about it. And I'm just not going to let it ruin my life. 16 17 Q. Based on your observations, how would you describe Annie's demeanor when you tried to talk to her about New Mexico? 18 19 A. She's just always very evasive and she didn't -- she just didn't want to discuss it. And she would always say the same thing: I'm not going to let it ruin my life. 20 21 22 MS. POMERANTZ: Your Honor, may I have just one moment? 23 24 THE COURT: You may. 25 (Counsel conferred) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016446 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 231 of 267 2259 L CAVMAX8 Swain - cross 1 MS. POMERANTZ: No further questions, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Menninger. 3 MS. MENNINGER: Briefly, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Go ahead. 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION 6 BY MS. MENNINGER: 7 Q. I just want to confirm, Ghislaine Maxwell never called you in relation to anything, right? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You've never spoken to her, right? 10 A. I have not. 11 Q. You've never met her? 12 A. I have not. 13 Q. The reference that you gave earlier about "your wife being there," that came from Jeffrey Epstein, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. On a phone call you had with Jeffrey Epstein? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. Did Jeffrey Epstein tell you that he kept secrets from Ghislaine? 18 A. No, I didn't ever hear that. 19 Q. Did Jeffrey Epstein tell you that he was dating other women behind Ghislaine's back? 20 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 21 MS. MENNINGER: 806, your Honor. 22 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013822 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 231 of 267 2259 L CAVMAX8 Swain - cross 1 MS. POMERANTZ: No further questions, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Menninger. 3 MS. MENNINGER: Briefly, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Go ahead. 5 CROSS-EXAMINATION 6 BY MS. MENNINGER: 7 Q. I just want to confirm, Ghislaine Maxwell never called you in relation to anything, right? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You've never spoken to her, right? 10 A. I have not. 11 Q. You've never met her? 12 A. I have not. 13 Q. The reference that you gave earlier about "your wife being there," that came from Jeffrey Epstein, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. On a phone call you had with Jeffrey Epstein? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. Did Jeffrey Epstein tell you that he kept secrets from Ghislaine? 18 A. No, I didn't ever hear that. 19 Q. Did Jeffrey Epstein tell you that he was dating other women behind Ghislaine's back? 20 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 21 MS. MENNINGER: 806, your Honor. 22 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. 23 (212) 805-0300 24 DOJ-OGR-00016447 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 232 of 267 2260 LCAVMAX8 Swain - cross 1 THE COURT: Just a moment. I need to hear you. I'm not tracking. 2 MS. MENNINGER: Okay. 3 (At sidebar) 4 5 THE COURT: Where are we going? 6 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, once the government elicits co-conspirator statements under 801(d)(2)(E), under 806, I'm allowed to impeach the declarant as though they were testifying. So I'm asking questions about Jeffrey Epstein through this witness, who is the one from whom they elicited the 801(d)(2)(E) statements. That's what I believe 806 provides. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 THE COURT: You have a series of questions about things that Epstein didn't tell her? 14 15 MS. MENNINGER: Correct. 16 MS. MOE: Your Honor, this is all a line of argument, they are not questions. This witness doesn't know anything about it. I'm not sure what the basis is for trying to impeach Jeffrey Epstein's credibility through this particular witness. It's all argument. 17 18 19 20 21 THE COURT: We're not going to do ten -- 22 MS. MENNINGER: No. 23 THE COURT: We're going to do -- 24 MS. MENNINGER: A handful; three. 25 THE COURT: Three questions and then move on. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013823 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 232 of 267 2260 LCAVMAX8 Swain - cross 1 THE COURT: Just a moment. I need to hear you. I'm not tracking. 2 MS. MENNINGER: Okay. 3 (At sidebar) 4 5 THE COURT: Where are we going? 6 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, once the government elicits co-conspirator statements under 801(d)(2)(E), under 806, I'm allowed to impeach the declarant as though they were testifying. So I'm asking questions about Jeffrey Epstein through this witness, who is the one from whom they elicited the 801(d)(2)(E) statements. That's what I believe 806 provides. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 THE COURT: You have a series of questions about things that Epstein didn't tell her? 14 15 MS. MENNINGER: Correct. 16 MS. MOE: Your Honor, this is all a line of argument, they are not questions. This witness doesn't know anything about it. I'm not sure what the basis is for trying to impeach Jeffrey Epstein's credibility through this particular witness. It's all argument. 17 18 19 20 21 THE COURT: We're not going to do ten -- 22 MS. MENNINGER: No. 23 THE COURT: We're going to do -- 24 MS. MENNINGER: A handful; three. 25 THE COURT: Three questions and then move on. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016448 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 233 of 267 2261 LCAVMAX8 Swain - cross 1 (In open court) 2 BY MS. MENNINGER: 3 Q. Did Jeffrey Epstein tell you on the phone calls with you that he was dating other women behind Ghislaine Maxwell's back? 4 A. We didn't discuss her in those calls. 5 Q. Did Mr. Epstein tell you that he manipulated people around him for his own personal gain? 6 A. No. 7 Q. When Mr. Epstein talked to you about this trip to New Mexico, it's true that he originally told you that Maria was going to be going on the trip; correct? 8 A. Would you repeat that? 9 Q. When Mr. Epstein talked to you about Annie's trip to New Mexico, he originally told you that Maria was going to go on the trip; correct? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Because you never talked to Ghislaine Maxwell, you don't know what she knew about this trip; correct? 12 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 13 I think it's a bit confusing. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 Q. You've never talked to Ms. Maxwell about the New Mexico trip before or after; correct? 16 A. I have never spoken with her. 17 Q. But you don't know whether she was aware that Annie was SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013824 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 233 of 267 2261 LCAVMAX8 Swain - cross 1 (In open court) 2 BY MS. MENNINGER: 3 Q. Did Jeffrey Epstein tell you on the phone calls with you that he was dating other women behind Ghislaine Maxwell's back? 4 A. We didn't discuss her in those calls. 5 Q. Did Mr. Epstein tell you that he manipulated people around him for his own personal gain? 6 A. No. 7 Q. When Mr. Epstein talked to you about this trip to New Mexico, it's true that he originally told you that Maria was going to be going on the trip; correct? 8 A. Would you repeat that? 9 Q. When Mr. Epstein talked to you about Annie's trip to New Mexico, he originally told you that Maria was going to go on the trip; correct? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Because you never talked to Ghislaine Maxwell, you don't know what she knew about this trip; correct? 12 MS. POMERANTZ: Objection, your Honor. 13 I think it's a bit confusing. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 Q. You've never talked to Ms. Maxwell about the New Mexico trip before or after; correct? 16 A. I have never spoken with her. 17 Q. But you don't know whether she was aware that Annie was SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016449 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 234 of 267 2262 LCAVMAX8 Swain - cross 1 coming on this trip; correct? 2 A. She picked her up at the airport. 3 Q. I'm sorry, what? 4 A. I think she picked her up at the airport. 5 Q. Is that what Annie told you? 6 A. I thought that's what happened. 7 Q. Not a driver? 8 A. I really don't know. It was just my -- that's what I thought. 9 10 Q. Okay. So you don't know what Ghislaine Maxwell knew about Annie coming or going, right? 11 12 A. I don't. 13 Q. Regarding the trip to Thailand, you personally observed Annie working to earn money for that trip; correct? 14 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And Annie had been on trips before; correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. She had been to Mexico? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You, yourself, were on a trip to Europe when she was in Thailand; correct? 21 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. Annie did, in fact, go to an Ivy League college, right? 24 A. She did. 25 Q. And Mr. Epstein didn't pay for that college; correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013825 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 234 of 267 2262 LCAVMAX8 Swain - cross 1 coming on this trip; correct? 2 A. She picked her up at the airport. 3 Q. I'm sorry, what? 4 A. I think she picked her up at the airport. 5 Q. Is that what Annie told you? 6 A. I thought that's what happened. 7 Q. Not a driver? 8 A. I really don't know. It was just my -- that's what I thought. 9 10 Q. Okay. So you don't know what Ghislaine Maxwell knew about 11 Annie coming or going, right? 12 A. I don't. 13 Q. Regarding the trip to Thailand, you personally observed 14 Annie working to earn money for that trip; correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And Annie had been on trips before; correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. She had been to Mexico? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You, yourself, were on a trip to Europe when she was in 21 Thailand; correct? 22 A. Correct. 23 Q. Annie did, in fact, go to an Ivy League college, right? 24 A. She did. 25 Q. And Mr. Epstein didn't pay for that college; correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016450 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 235 of 267 2263 LCAVMAX8 1 A. No. 2 MS. MENNINGER: If I could have one moment, your 3 Honor. 4 THE COURT: You may. 5 (Counsel conferred) 6 BY MS. MENNINGER: 7 Q. In that summer when Annie was in Thailand, you were in 8 Germany; correct? 9 A. Yes, I was. 10 MS. MENNINGER: No further questions. 11 Thank you, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz? 13 MS. POMERANTZ: No redirect. 14 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Swain, thank you. 15 You are excused. You may step down. 16 (Witness excused) 17 Ms. Pomerantz? Ms. Moe? 18 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. The government rests. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 20 Let me briefly speak to counsel. 21 (Continued on next page) 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013826 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 235 of 267 2263 LCAVMAX8 1 A. No. 2 MS. MENNINGER: If I could have one moment, your 3 Honor. 4 THE COURT: You may. 5 (Counsel conferred) 6 BY MS. MENNINGER: 7 Q. In that summer when Annie was in Thailand, you were in 8 Germany; correct? 9 A. Yes, I was. 10 MS. MENNINGER: No further questions. 11 Thank you, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Ms. Pomerantz? 13 MS. POMERANTZ: No redirect. 14 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Swain, thank you. 15 You are excused. You may step down. 16 (Witness excused) 17 Ms. Pomerantz? Ms. Moe? 18 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. The government rests. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 20 Let me briefly speak to counsel. 21 (Continued on next page) 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016451 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 236 of 267 2264 LCAVMAX8 1 (At sidebar) 2 THE COURT: I should have clarified this before, but I will excuse the jury. I will excuse the jury with 3 instructions; correct? 4 MS. MOE: Yes. Thank you, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: You still anticipate a defense case? 6 MR. EVERDELL: Yes. 7 THE COURT: So I will say I want to give them -- I'm going to go over my instructions. I'm going to say no 8 discussions, keep an open mind. The government has rested. The defense case will be next. Okay with that? 9 MS. STERNHEIM: Perfect. 10 MS. MOE: Thank you. 11 MR. EVERDELL: Thank you, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: And then I'll hear the Rule 29 motion. 13 MS. STERNHEIM: Yes. 14 MR. EVERDELL: Yes. 15 (Continued on next page) 16 17 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 18 DOJ-OGR-00013827 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 236 of 267 2264 LCAVMAX8 1 (At sidebar) 2 THE COURT: I should have clarified this before, but I will excuse the jury. I will excuse the jury with 3 instructions; correct? 4 MS. MOE: Yes. Thank you, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: You still anticipate a defense case? 6 MR. EVERDELL: Yes. 7 THE COURT: So I will say I want to give them -- I'm going to go over my instructions. I'm going to say no 8 discussions, keep an open mind. The government has rested. The defense case will be next. Okay with that? 9 MS. STERNHEIM: Perfect. 10 MS. MOE: Thank you. 11 MR. EVERDELL: Thank you, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: And then I'll hear the Rule 29 motion. 13 MS. STERNHEIM: Yes. 14 MR. EVERDELL: Yes. 15 (Continued on next page) 16 17 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016452 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 237 of 267 2265 LCAVMAX8 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Members of the jury, as you've heard, the government has rested. We're going to break a little bit early today and resume, as I said, on Thursday at our normal time, with the next phase of the case, which is the defense case. 3 Because we're going to be apart for five days, I'm going to just take a minute to carefully remind you of all my instructions. And I know that you know this, but it's important, since we're moving to the next phase of the case. 4 No consumption of any kind of media or information through any means about the case. No discussions with each other or anyone else about the case or anyone involved in the case. No communications with anyone through any means about the case. And although the government has rested, it's important to keep an open mind, as I've said, until we get to the next stage of the case and through to the later stages until you begin your deliberations. 5 With that, I bid you a happy Friday and a good weekend, a long weekend for us. I will see you Thursday. We'll start promptly at 9:30 on Thursday morning. 6 Thank you so much. 7 (Jury excused) 8 THE COURT: Matters to take up. 9 MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, the defense has an application. 10 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013828 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 237 of 267 2265 LCAVMAX8 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Members of the jury, as you've heard, the government has rested. We're going to break a little bit early today and resume, as I said, on Thursday at our normal time, with the next phase of the case, which is the defense case. 3 Because we're going to be apart for five days, I'm going to just take a minute to carefully remind you of all my instructions. And I know that you know this, but it's important, since we're moving to the next phase of the case. 4 No consumption of any kind of media or information through any means about the case. No discussions with each other or anyone else about the case or anyone involved in the case. No communications with anyone through any means about the case. And although the government has rested, it's important to keep an open mind, as I've said, until we get to the next stage of the case and through to the later stages until you begin your deliberations. 5 With that, I bid you a happy Friday and a good weekend, a long weekend for us. I will see you Thursday. We'll start promptly at 9:30 on Thursday morning. 6 Thank you so much. 7 (Jury excused) 8 THE COURT: Matters to take up. 9 MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, the defense has an application. 10 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11 DOJ-OGR-00016453 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 238 of 267 2266 LCAVMAX8 1 THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Everdell. 2 Do you want to come to the podium? 3 MR. EVERDELL: Yes, please. 4 Your Honor, the defense moves at this time for a 5 judgment of acquittal under Rule 29(a) on the grounds that the 6 evidence elicited by the government in its case-in-chief is 7 insufficient to establish each element of the offenses charged 8 in the S2 indictment beyond a reasonable doubt. 9 THE COURT: Move as to all counts? 10 MR. EVERDELL: Move as to all counts, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Go ahead. 12 MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, we do make this application 13 with respect to every count in the S2 indictment; but for 14 purposes of today, I'm going to confine my comments to address 15 specifically Counts One and Two. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 MR. EVERDELL: Which are the enticement counts, 18 conspiracy, and the substantive enticement counts. 19 Your Honor, as the Court is aware, those counts depend 20 on the testimony of Jane. 21 To convict Ms. Maxwell, the government must show that 22 Ms. Maxwell persuaded or enticed Jane to travel to New York to 23 engage in sex acts that would violate New York law and the 24 specific law that's cited in the indictment. There is no 25 evidence in the record that Ms. Maxwell or anyone else who SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013829 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 238 of 267 2266 LCAVMAX8 1 THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Everdell. 2 Do you want to come to the podium? 3 MR. EVERDELL: Yes, please. 4 Your Honor, the defense moves at this time for a 5 judgment of acquittal under Rule 29(a) on the grounds that the 6 evidence elicited by the government in its case-in-chief is 7 insufficient to establish each element of the offenses charged 8 in the S2 indictment beyond a reasonable doubt. 9 THE COURT: Move as to all counts? 10 MR. EVERDELL: Move as to all counts, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Go ahead. 12 MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, we do make this application 13 with respect to every count in the S2 indictment; but for 14 purposes of today, I'm going to confine my comments to address 15 specifically Counts One and Two. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 MR. EVERDELL: Which are the enticement counts, 18 conspiracy, and the substantive enticement counts. 19 Your Honor, as the Court is aware, those counts depend 20 on the testimony of Jane. 21 To convict Ms. Maxwell, the government must show that 22 Ms. Maxwell persuaded or enticed Jane to travel to New York to 23 engage in sex acts that would violate New York law and the 24 specific law that's cited in the indictment. There is no 25 evidence in the record that Ms. Maxwell or anyone else who SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016454 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 239 of 267 2267 LCAVMAX8 allegedly participated in this conspiracy persuaded, induced, or enticed Jane to travel to New York to engage in illegal sexual activity. Your Honor, these words "persuade, induce, entice," these are words of causation. And I am now quoting from U.S. v. Broxmeyer, 616 F.3d 120 (2d Cir. 2010), and that's at page 125. This is a decision that addresses 2251, not 2242, but that statute has the same words "persuade, induce, entice," and it's interpreting in the same way. And Broxmeyer says that these are words of causation, which means they have to bring about an effect. There has to be something done by the defendant to bring about an effect. And in discussing the dictionary definitions, these words are usually given their dictionary definitions, but they do discuss in this opinion what those typically are. And they quote from the Random House Dictionary. "Induce" means, according to the dictionary, to bring about, produce, or cause. "Entice" means to draw on by exciting hope or desire or allure. And "persuade" means to prevail on a person to do something as by advising, urging, etc., to induce to believe or convince. So, again, these are words of causation. Now, the only testimony that we have in the record that relates in any way to Ms. Maxwell taking part in Jane's travel to New York is that Jane testified as to the following SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013830 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 239 of 267 2267 LCAVMAX8 allegedly participated in this conspiracy persuaded, induced, or enticed Jane to travel to New York to engage in illegal sexual activity. Your Honor, these words "persuade, induce, entice," these are words of causation. And I am now quoting from U.S. v. Broxmeyer, 616 F.3d 120 (2d Cir. 2010), and that's at page 125. This is a decision that addresses 2251, not 2242, but that statute has the same words "persuade, induce, entice," and it's interpreting in the same way. And Broxmeyer says that these are words of causation, which means they have to bring about an effect. There has to be something done by the defendant to bring about an effect. And in discussing the dictionary definitions, these words are usually given their dictionary definitions, but they do discuss in this opinion what those typically are. And they quote from the Random House Dictionary. "Induce" means, according to the dictionary, to bring about, produce, or cause. "Entice" means to draw on by exciting hope or desire or allure. And "persuade" means to prevail on a person to do something as by advising, urging, etc., to induce to believe or convince. So, again, these are words of causation. Now, the only testimony that we have in the record that relates in any way to Ms. Maxwell taking part in Jane's travel to New York is that Jane testified as to the following SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016455 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 240 of 267 2268 LCAVMAX8 1 three points. And I will refer the Court to the record. I'm 2 looking at pages 316, line 2, to page 317, line 1; pages 324 3 line 14, to 324, line 20; and pages 323, line 23, to page 324, 4 line 11. 5 In those transcript paragraphs, this is Jane's 6 testimony, she says that three things occur with respect to 7 Ms. Maxwell and her travel: 8 First, she says that she, Jane, traveled with 9 Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell to various locations, including New 10 York. 11 Second, she says that Ms. Maxwell sometimes assisted 12 in making the travel arrangements. There's really like a one 13 line mention of that. 14 And third, she recounts an anecdote that on one 15 occasion when she was already in New York, she called 16 someone -- it's unclear who -- and she was said, quote/unquote, 17 freaking out because she couldn't get on her plane going back 18 to Palm Beach because she was only 15 at the time and didn't 19 have any identification. And she says that at some point 20 "Ghislain made it happen for me," meaning that she helped her 21 get on that flight. 22 That's the only testimony we have and only evidence we 23 have in the record that talks about Ms. Maxwell's involvement 24 in enticement or encouraging travel to New York. So with 25 respect to each three, your Honor, they are insufficient. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013831 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 240 of 267 2268 LCAVMAX8 1 three points. And I will refer the Court to the record. I'm 2 looking at pages 316, line 2, to page 317, line 1; pages 324 3 line 14, to 324, line 20; and pages 323, line 23, to page 324, 4 line 11. 5 In those transcript paragraphs, this is Jane's 6 testimony, she says that three things occur with respect to 7 Ms. Maxwell and her travel: 8 First, she says that she, Jane, traveled with 9 Mr. Epstein and Ms. Maxwell to various locations, including New 10 York. 11 Second, she says that Ms. Maxwell sometimes assisted 12 in making the travel arrangements. There's really like a one 13 line mention of that. 14 And third, she recounts an anecdote that on one 15 occasion when she was already in New York, she called 16 someone -- it's unclear who -- and she was said, quote/unquote, 17 freaking out because she couldn't get on her plane going back 18 to Palm Beach because she was only 15 at the time and didn't 19 have any identification. And she says that at some point 20 "Ghislain made it happen for me," meaning that she helped her 21 get on that flight. 22 That's the only testimony we have and only evidence we 23 have in the record that talks about Ms. Maxwell's involvement 24 in enticement or encouraging travel to New York. So with 25 respect to each three, your Honor, they are insufficient. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016456 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 241 of 267 2269 LCAVMAX8 1 First, we can dispense with the incident where 2 allegedly Ms. Maxwell got on the phone and somehow arranged for 3 Jane to get back to Palm Beach, because that is a flight going 4 back to Palm Beach; that is not enticing someone to fly to New 5 York for the purposes of breaking New York law and engaging in illegal sex acts. There's no enticement as would be illegal 6 under the statute there because this is a return trip. 7 8 As to the first, simply traveling with someone is not 9 enticing; that's just being present on the plane, that's not 10 causing an effect, that's being present. That does not 11 qualify. So simply being on the plane traveling does not 12 establish persuasion, inducement, or enticement. 13 And as to the last, occasionally arranging travel, if 14 that is to be believed, is not enticement either. Jane's 15 testimony, if you look at those transcript cites, your Honor, 16 is that her travel arrangements were typically made by Jeffrey 17 Epstein's office, and that Ghislaine Maxwell occasionally 18 helped out. 19 There is no testimony whatsoever that Ghislaine 20 Maxwell encouraged her to travel. There is no testimony that 21 she tried to convince her to travel anywhere, much less New 22 York, or advised her to travel. We don't even have testimony 23 that Ghislaine Maxwell offered to arrange the travel. 24 All it says is that she occasionally arranged. And 25 maybe it's the office that called -- or that arranged with SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013832 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 241 of 267 2269 LCAVMAX8 1 First, we can dispense with the incident where 2 allegedly Ms. Maxwell got on the phone and somehow arranged for 3 Jane to get back to Palm Beach, because that is a flight going 4 back to Palm Beach; that is not enticing someone to fly to New 5 York for the purposes of breaking New York law and engaging in illegal sex acts. There's no enticement as would be illegal 6 under the statute there because this is a return trip. 7 8 As to the first, simply traveling with someone is not 9 enticing; that's just being present on the plane, that's not 10 causing an effect, that's being present. That does not 11 qualify. So simply being on the plane traveling does not 12 establish persuasion, inducement, or enticement. 13 And as to the last, occasionally arranging travel, if 14 that is to be believed, is not enticement either. Jane's 15 testimony, if you look at those transcript cites, your Honor, 16 is that her travel arrangements were typically made by Jeffrey 17 Epstein's office, and that Ghislaine Maxwell occasionally 18 helped out. 19 There is no testimony whatsoever that Ghislaine 20 Maxwell encouraged her to travel. There is no testimony that 21 she tried to convince her to travel anywhere, much less New 22 York, or advised her to travel. We don't even have testimony 23 that Ghislaine Maxwell offered to arrange the travel. 24 All it says is that she occasionally arranged. And 25 maybe it's the office that called -- or that arranged with SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016457 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 242 of 267 2270 LCAVMAX8 1 Ghislaine to have Ghislaine arrange the travel. But she didn't even offer it herself. It seems like the best we have on this record is that she performed a ministerial function of arranging the travel. But that is not doing something, a cause, that produces an effect; that is simply doing paperwork. 2 That is not what the statute was designed to criminalize. 3 There has to be some effort to entice or persuade or induce somebody to travel, which we do not have on this record. 4 And one case I would direct your Honor to is United States v. Joseph, 542 F.3d 13 (2d Cir. 2008). In that case, the Second Circuit reversed the conviction for enticement under this same statute, 2422, because the jury was instructed that they could convict if they found the defendant made the possibility of a sex act "more appealing," as if that was enough to entice, if they made it more appealing. 5 The court held that that was not enough to establish persuasion, inducement, enticement under the statute. And here we don't even have that. We just have her performing what a travel agent would do, which is arranging travel plans. And that is not enough, under the wording of the statute, to prove enticement. And there is nothing also from any member of the conspiracy on that same count, your Honor, doing anything to arrange or induce the travel. 6 So I would argue, your Honor, that on the record we have before us, there is insufficient evidence to establish SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013833 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 242 of 267 2270 LCAVMAX8 1 Ghislaine to have Ghislaine arrange the travel. But she didn't even offer it herself. It seems like the best we have on this record is that she performed a ministerial function of arranging the travel. But that is not doing something, a cause, that produces an effect; that is simply doing paperwork. 2 That is not what the statute was designed to criminalize. 3 There has to be some effort to entice or persuade or induce somebody to travel, which we do not have on this record. 4 And one case I would direct your Honor to is United States v. Joseph, 542 F.3d 13 (2d Cir. 2008). In that case, the Second Circuit reversed the conviction for enticement under this same statute, 2422, because the jury was instructed that they could convict if they found the defendant made the possibility of a sex act "more appealing," as if that was enough to entice, if they made it more appealing. 5 The court held that that was not enough to establish persuasion, inducement, enticement under the statute. And here we don't even have that. We just have her performing what a travel agent would do, which is arranging travel plans. And that is not enough, under the wording of the statute, to prove enticement. And there is nothing also from any member of the conspiracy on that same count, your Honor, doing anything to arrange or induce the travel. 6 So I would argue, your Honor, that on the record we have before us, there is insufficient evidence to establish SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016458 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 243 of 267 2271 L CAVMAX8 1 Counts One and Two, the enticement conspiracy and substantive counts. 2 3 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 4 Mr. Rohrbach. 5 MR. ROHRBACH: If I may take the podium, your Honor. 6 Your Honor, the Court should deny the defendant's 7 motion as to Counts One and Two. 8 Jane was not in New York by accident. In fact, 9 there's no nonsexualized purpose that's been articulated at 10 this point for Jane to travel to New York. 11 Mr. Everdell takes a very narrow view on the nexus 12 that's required between enticement, inducement, and the other 13 verbs that are in the enticement statute and the travel itself. 14 The jury could readily conclude, as the government has argued, 15 that all of Jane's travel to New York was in the context of the 16 relationship that the defendant and Epstein built with Jane. 17 That meets each of the verbs in the statute. 18 Jane's testimony is that the defendant played on her 19 hopes and dreams to make her feel special, seen, and cared for. 20 "Enticement" is defined as using hope and desire. So the 21 defendant was playing on Jane's hopes and desires in order to 22 get her into this relationship over a multi-year period in 23 which she was traveling with the defendant. 24 Similarly, persuasion, the defendant testified that -- 25 sorry, Jane testified that the defendant developed a friendship SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 243 of 267 2271 L CAVMAX8 1 Counts One and Two, the enticement conspiracy and substantive counts. 2 3 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 4 Mr. Rohrbach. 5 MR. ROHRBACH: If I may take the podium, your Honor. 6 Your Honor, the Court should deny the defendant's 7 motion as to Counts One and Two. 8 Jane was not in New York by accident. In fact, 9 there's no nonsexualized purpose that's been articulated at 10 this point for Jane to travel to New York. 11 Mr. Everdell takes a very narrow view on the nexus 12 that's required between enticement, inducement, and the other 13 verbs that are in the enticement statute and the travel itself. 14 The jury could readily conclude, as the government has argued, 15 that all of Jane's travel to New York was in the context of the 16 relationship that the defendant and Epstein built with Jane. 17 That meets each of the verbs in the statute. 18 Jane's testimony is that the defendant played on her 19 hopes and dreams to make her feel special, seen, and cared for. 20 "Enticement" is defined as using hope and desire. So the 21 defendant was playing on Jane's hopes and desires in order to 22 get her into this relationship over a multi-year period in 23 which she was traveling with the defendant. 24 Similarly, persuasion, the defendant testified that -- 25 sorry, Jane testified that the defendant developed a friendship SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 244 of 267 2272 LCAVMAX8 with her, talked about sex with her, bought her gifts, took her on field trips. The defendant -- Jane's testimony, in combination with Dr. Rocchio's testimony, would lead the jury to concludes that the defendant was in a relationship of coercive control with Jane, which would have allowed her to exercise control to get Jane to continue to travel to New York where, Jane's testimony is, the defendant personally engaged in sexual abuse of Jane. So those are plenty of reasons why the enticement statute is met as to Jane herself, in light of the course of conduct the defendant engaged in with Jane over many years. But even if the Court didn't readily conclude that that statute was met, the defendant is also charged under an aiding and abetting theory. And there can be no serious argument that Jeffrey Epstein didn't entice, persuade, induce, and coerce Jane to travel to New York. And given that fact, it's quite obvious that the defendant was aware of that plan, given that she was on the plane and in the room in New York when the abuse was happening. And she took steps over multiple years to knowingly associate herself with it and to facilitate it. So that, again, is a separate theory by which the statute is met. And finally, here, I would just remind your Honor, as I'm sure your Honor is already aware, the standard here is remarkably low. All that is required is that taking all SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013835 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 244 of 267 2272 LCAVMAX8 with her, talked about sex with her, bought her gifts, took her on field trips. The defendant -- Jane's testimony, in combination with Dr. Rocchio's testimony, would lead the jury to concludes that the defendant was in a relationship of coercive control with Jane, which would have allowed her to exercise control to get Jane to continue to travel to New York where, Jane's testimony is, the defendant personally engaged in sexual abuse of Jane. So those are plenty of reasons why the enticement statute is met as to Jane herself, in light of the course of conduct the defendant engaged in with Jane over many years. But even if the Court didn't readily conclude that that statute was met, the defendant is also charged under an aiding and abetting theory. And there can be no serious argument that Jeffrey Epstein didn't entice, persuade, induce, and coerce Jane to travel to New York. And given that fact, it's quite obvious that the defendant was aware of that plan, given that she was on the plane and in the room in New York when the abuse was happening. And she took steps over multiple years to knowingly associate herself with it and to facilitate it. So that, again, is a separate theory by which the statute is met. And finally, here, I would just remind your Honor, as I'm sure your Honor is already aware, the standard here is remarkably low. All that is required is that taking all SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016460 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 245 of 267 2273 LCAVMAX8 inferences in the government's favor, the jury could conclude -- they could find a conviction on Counts One and Two. That bar is surmounted very easily by just the testimony of Jane alone, and I have not even discussed other corroborating testimony that would support that conclusion. THE COURT: All right. Thank you. Any final points, Mr. Everdell? MR. EVERDELL: Just two, your Honor. THE COURT: Microphone, please. MR. EVERDELL: I can do it from here. THE COURT: That's fine. MR. EVERDELL: The point about Mr. Epstein's actions I won't leave alone; but, of course, only applies to the conspiracy count. Obviously Count Two is the substantive count. THE COURT: You'll address aiding and abetting? MR. EVERDELL: Well, yes, aiding and abetting. So I don't see any testimony of Ghislaine Maxwell aiding and abetting Jeffrey Epstein, enticing her to travel to New York. There's remarkably little testimony about that action, and that is what the subject of the substantive count is, right. You have to show that Ms. Maxwell enticed Jane to travel to New York with the intent knowing that when she got there, that statute, that New York statute that's cited in the indictment, would be violated. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013836 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 245 of 267 2273 LCAVMAX8 inferences in the government's favor, the jury could conclude -- they could find a conviction on Counts One and Two. That bar is surmounted very easily by just the testimony of Jane alone, and I have not even discussed other corroborating testimony that would support that conclusion. THE COURT: All right. Thank you. Any final points, Mr. Everdell? MR. EVERDELL: Just two, your Honor. THE COURT: Microphone, please. MR. EVERDELL: I can do it from here. THE COURT: That's fine. MR. EVERDELL: The point about Mr. Epstein's actions I won't leave alone; but, of course, only applies to the conspiracy count. Obviously Count Two is the substantive count. THE COURT: You'll address aiding and abetting? MR. EVERDELL: Well, yes, aiding and abetting. So I don't see any testimony of Ghislaine Maxwell aiding and abetting Jeffrey Epstein, enticing her to travel to New York. There's remarkably little testimony about that action, and that is what the subject of the substantive count is, right. You have to show that Ms. Maxwell enticed Jane to travel to New York with the intent knowing that when she got there, that statute, that New York statute that's cited in the indictment, would be violated. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016461 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 246 of 267 2274 LCAVMAX8 1 And if it's going to be on an aiding and abetting 2 theory, then she has to have aided Jeffrey Epstein or some 3 other person to have done the same thing. And I don't see any 4 evidence in the record about Jeffrey Epstein enticing her to 5 travel to New York. All we heard of was travel to New York. 6 And there could be any number of reasons why she traveled to 7 New York. But there is no hard evidence that there was 8 enticement to travel, convincing her to travel for that 9 purpose. So I don't think either on an aiding and abetting 10 theory, it also doesn't work. 11 The only other point I would make, your Honor, is that 12 I want to be clear on the record that we are making this 13 application as to all counts, although my comments are reserved 14 for the first two counts. 15 THE COURT: Understood. All right. Thank you. 16 The motions are denied. 17 What do we need to discuss before Thursday? 18 MS. MOE: Your Honor, we just wanted to confirm on the 19 record that we would be receiving defense exhibits and Rule 26 20 material today. 21 THE COURT: Counsel? 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: We should have those materials today, 23 your Honor. There's a little bit of fluidity in terms of the 24 witnesses, and perhaps even if there are Rule 26 materials, 25 frankly, which I don't suspect that there are. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013837 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 246 of 267 2274 LCAVMAX8 1 And if it's going to be on an aiding and abetting 2 theory, then she has to have aided Jeffrey Epstein or some 3 other person to have done the same thing. And I don't see any 4 evidence in the record about Jeffrey Epstein enticing her to 5 travel to New York. All we heard of was travel to New York. 6 And there could be any number of reasons why she traveled to 7 New York. But there is no hard evidence that there was 8 enticement to travel, convincing her to travel for that 9 purpose. So I don't think either on an aiding and abetting 10 theory, it also doesn't work. 11 The only other point I would make, your Honor, is that 12 I want to be clear on the record that we are making this 13 application as to all counts, although my comments are reserved 14 for the first two counts. 15 THE COURT: Understood. All right. Thank you. 16 The motions are denied. 17 What do we need to discuss before Thursday? 18 MS. MOE: Your Honor, we just wanted to confirm on the 19 record that we would be receiving defense exhibits and Rule 26 20 material today. 21 THE COURT: Counsel? 22 MR. PAGLIUCA: We should have those materials today, 23 your Honor. There's a little bit of fluidity in terms of the 24 witnesses, and perhaps even if there are Rule 26 materials, 25 frankly, which I don't suspect that there are. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016462 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 247 of 267 2275 LCAVMAX8 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: But the problem is, you know, we have a 3 larger list that we've needed to winnow down, given the fact 4 that the government has rested early and has not called a 5 significant number of witnesses. 6 We also have the problem of travel for this period of 7 time with some of our witnesses. And we're confirming who's 8 available. And we have been confirming who's available and 9 who's not available and when. And there may be the need to 10 substitute a different witness on the same topic. 11 But what I expect to be able to do tonight is to send 12 the government what we believe our good-faith list is. And 13 there will be some, I expect, adjustment to that as we move 14 along. But that's our anticipated goal here, your Honor. 15 MS. MOE: Your Honor, the government warned the 16 defense multiple times this week that we would rest. The Court 17 ordered the defense to produce these materials at the 18 conclusion of the government's case, long before the trial. 19 And we submit the defense should do just that. 20 With respect to Rule 26 materials, especially given 21 that there are experts in this case, there should be Rule 26 22 materials, including communications with experts, things like 23 contracts and payment materials. And if there were going to be 24 defense witnesses, any notes of interviews with those witnesses 25 are governed by Rule 26 and are subject to disclosure today. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013838 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 247 of 267 2275 LCAVMAX8 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MR. PAGLIUCA: But the problem is, you know, we have a 3 larger list that we've needed to winnow down, given the fact 4 that the government has rested early and has not called a 5 significant number of witnesses. 6 We also have the problem of travel for this period of 7 time with some of our witnesses. And we're confirming who's 8 available. And we have been confirming who's available and 9 who's not available and when. And there may be the need to 10 substitute a different witness on the same topic. 11 But what I expect to be able to do tonight is to send 12 the government what we believe our good-faith list is. And 13 there will be some, I expect, adjustment to that as we move 14 along. But that's our anticipated goal here, your Honor. 15 MS. MOE: Your Honor, the government warned the 16 defense multiple times this week that we would rest. The Court 17 ordered the defense to produce these materials at the 18 conclusion of the government's case, long before the trial. 19 And we submit the defense should do just that. 20 With respect to Rule 26 materials, especially given 21 that there are experts in this case, there should be Rule 26 22 materials, including communications with experts, things like 23 contracts and payment materials. And if there were going to be 24 defense witnesses, any notes of interviews with those witnesses 25 are governed by Rule 26 and are subject to disclosure today. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016463 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 248 of 267 2276 LCAVMAX8 1 So we would ask the defense to comply with the Court's 2 order, produce those materials today, along with exhibits, a 3 list of witnesses, and an order of the first witnesses. 4 THE COURT: Yes. You'll do that. 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: I think I said we were going to do 6 that, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Right. To the extent you think one 8 witness might be substituted for a different witness, you need 9 to alert the government in your list today who the other 10 witness might be and make disclosures accordingly. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: We will do what we are supposed to do; 12 and we will do our best at it, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Okay. You have time, since we're not 14 sitting again till Thursday, to arrange travel. We've known 15 for some time the government would -- at least a few days, the 16 government would rest this week; and we've known about my 17 scheduling issues for Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. So we're not 18 at a moment of surprise at this point. I get that they've 19 shaved witnesses and that might require -- it's not me. 20 MS. MOE: It's not me, your Honor. 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: It's not me, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Whoa. That's weird. Khalilah? 23 It's the ghost of Friday, I guess. 24 So I think you're in a position to do your full 25 disclosures. To the extent there may be a substitute witness, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013839 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 248 of 267 2276 LCAVMAX8 1 So we would ask the defense to comply with the Court's 2 order, produce those materials today, along with exhibits, a 3 list of witnesses, and an order of the first witnesses. 4 THE COURT: Yes. You'll do that. 5 MR. PAGLIUCA: I think I said we were going to do 6 that, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Right. To the extent you think one 8 witness might be substituted for a different witness, you need 9 to alert the government in your list today who the other 10 witness might be and make disclosures accordingly. 11 MR. PAGLIUCA: We will do what we are supposed to do; 12 and we will do our best at it, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Okay. You have time, since we're not 14 sitting again till Thursday, to arrange travel. We've known 15 for some time the government would -- at least a few days, the 16 government would rest this week; and we've known about my 17 scheduling issues for Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. So we're not 18 at a moment of surprise at this point. I get that they've 19 shaved witnesses and that might require -- it's not me. 20 MS. MOE: It's not me, your Honor. 21 MR. PAGLIUCA: It's not me, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Whoa. That's weird. Khalilah? 23 It's the ghost of Friday, I guess. 24 So I think you're in a position to do your full 25 disclosures. To the extent there may be a substitute witness, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016464 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 249 of 267 2277 LCAVMAX8 you're in a position at this point to make those disclosures as if it is that person, so I did expect a full disclosure. What is the defense's anticipation as to length of case? MR. PAGLIUCA: I would say -- I'm going to guess no more than four days, more likely two to three, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. All right. So I think then -- and then we should talk about the timing of the charge conference. Have you discussed that further? You kept promising to discuss it. MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. We haven't conferred with the defense about that. We continue to just defer to the Court's preference on timing. I think if the defense case is two to three days, then a charge conference at the conclusion of that would fit with the Court's timing. We're also happy to do that earlier. We don't have a preference as to the sequencing there. THE COURT: Let me just look at the calendar. Go ahead, Ms. Sternheim. MS. STERNHEIM: I was just going to suggest that we utilize the Saturday that the Court said would be available. Even if we had more of a case, I think we could accomplish that, if the Court is still amenable. THE COURT: Okay. That's fine with me. MS. MOE: No objection to that, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013840 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 249 of 267 2277 LCAVMAX8 you're in a position at this point to make those disclosures as if it is that person, so I did expect a full disclosure. What is the defense's anticipation as to length of case? MR. PAGLIUCA: I would say -- I'm going to guess no more than four days, more likely two to three, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. All right. So I think then -- and then we should talk about the timing of the charge conference. Have you discussed that further? You kept promising to discuss it. MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. We haven't conferred with the defense about that. We continue to just defer to the Court's preference on timing. I think if the defense case is two to three days, then a charge conference at the conclusion of that would fit with the Court's timing. We're also happy to do that earlier. We don't have a preference as to the sequencing there. THE COURT: Let me just look at the calendar. Go ahead, Ms. Sternheim. MS. STERNHEIM: I was just going to suggest that we utilize the Saturday that the Court said would be available. Even if we had more of a case, I think we could accomplish that, if the Court is still amenable. THE COURT: Okay. That's fine with me. MS. MOE: No objection to that, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016465 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 250 of 267 2278 LCAVMAX8 THE COURT: All right. So why don't we schedule the charging conference for Saturday the 18th. I will confirm with the relevant court administrative staff and the marshal that we can do that and ensure public access and the like, of course, Ms. Maxwell's presence. But, as I said, my assumption is we can do that. So I will get you the charge sometime in advance of the 18th. MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, one other matter to take up. Looking ahead to the defense case -- and we have been in contact with a number of our potential witnesses, and we are already getting requests, and I think these are valid requests -- that at least some of them testify anonymously -- THE COURT: I think your mic went out. MR. EVERDELL: Maybe it's my mic that's the problem, your Honor. It's making noise. MS. STERNHEIM: Try this one. MR. EVERDELL: Is that better? THE COURT: It is. MR. EVERDELL: Okay. So, your Honor, as I was saying, we've been in contact with some of our witnesses, and we are already getting what I think are valid requests that these witnesses testify anonymously or under some sort of protection, name protection, whether that's a pseudonym or a first name, we have to work that out. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013841 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 250 of 267 2278 LCAVMAX8 THE COURT: All right. So why don't we schedule the charging conference for Saturday the 18th. I will confirm with the relevant court administrative staff and the marshal that we can do that and ensure public access and the like, of course, Ms. Maxwell's presence. But, as I said, my assumption is we can do that. So I will get you the charge sometime in advance of the 18th. MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, one other matter to take up. Looking ahead to the defense case -- and we have been in contact with a number of our potential witnesses, and we are already getting requests, and I think these are valid requests -- that at least some of them testify anonymously -- THE COURT: I think your mic went out. MR. EVERDELL: Maybe it's my mic that's the problem, your Honor. It's making noise. MS. STERNHEIM: Try this one. MR. EVERDELL: Is that better? THE COURT: It is. MR. EVERDELL: Okay. So, your Honor, as I was saying, we've been in contact with some of our witnesses, and we are already getting what I think are valid requests that these witnesses testify anonymously or under some sort of protection, name protection, whether that's a pseudonym or a first name, we have to work that out. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016466 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 251 of 267 2279 LCAVMAX8 1 I think given the protections that the government has 2 sought for their witnesses and that they've received for their 3 witnesses, we all know that this case has gotten a lot of 4 attention and that people who are testifying here might get a 5 lot of unwanted attention, especially if they are testifying on 6 behalf of Ms. Maxwell. And they would like to be able to do 7 this, at least some of them, with some sort of anonymous 8 protection. 9 And, your Honor, there's, I think, one in particular 10 that maybe we can be heard at sidebar on, but -- 11 THE COURT: Here's what I want to say: You should 12 confer. Identify specifically who you're talking about and the 13 asserted reasons. You'll let me know if you come to agreement 14 or disagree and, in either case, you'll put -- certainly if you 15 disagree, you'll put forward your disagreement. To the extent 16 you agree, you'll put forward the rationale and authoritative 17 support for the proposition. 18 MR. EVERDELL: Absolutely, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: So timing on that? 20 MS. MODE: Your Honor, this is the first we're hearing 21 of this. So I'm not aware of how many their witnesses are or 22 what the issues are, but we'd be happy to confer with defense 23 about that and submit briefing on it during the break over the 24 next few days. I think the amount of time we'll need to 25 examine and brief the issue depends on how many folks we're SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013842 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 251 of 267 2279 LCAVMAX8 1 I think given the protections that the government has 2 sought for their witnesses and that they've received for their 3 witnesses, we all know that this case has gotten a lot of 4 attention and that people who are testifying here might get a 5 lot of unwanted attention, especially if they are testifying on 6 behalf of Ms. Maxwell. And they would like to be able to do 7 this, at least some of them, with some sort of anonymous 8 protection. 9 And, your Honor, there's, I think, one in particular 10 that maybe we can be heard at sidebar on, but -- 11 THE COURT: Here's what I want to say: You should 12 confer. Identify specifically who you're talking about and the 13 asserted reasons. You'll let me know if you come to agreement 14 or disagree and, in either case, you'll put -- certainly if you 15 disagree, you'll put forward your disagreement. To the extent 16 you agree, you'll put forward the rationale and authoritative 17 support for the proposition. 18 MR. EVERDELL: Absolutely, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: So timing on that? 20 MS. MODE: Your Honor, this is the first we're hearing 21 of this. So I'm not aware of how many their witnesses are or 22 what the issues are, but we'd be happy to confer with defense 23 about that and submit briefing on it during the break over the 24 next few days. I think the amount of time we'll need to 25 examine and brief the issue depends on how many folks we're SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016467 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 252 of 267 2280 LCAVMAX8 talking about. MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, if I can make a suggestion, I think it makes the most sense to do this after we have disclosed the witness list and then we can confer. THE COURT: Right. So do that. And then confer and then you tell me, Mr. Everdell, when would you like to put in -- MR. EVERDELL: One moment, your Honor. I think if we can do it by Monday, that would be fine for the defense, if that works for the government. THE COURT: So Monday. If you're in agreement, you'll put in a submission. If you're in disagreement, the defense will move on Monday and I'll hear from the government on -- MS. MOE: Wednesday, your Honor? THE COURT: So I suppose we might be looking at this application with respect to witnesses on Thursday. MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. If I could just have one moment to confer on timing. THE COURT: Yes. MS. MOE: Your Honor, would Wednesday at noon be acceptable? If the Court would like additional time -- THE COURT: That's fine. MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, I'm sorry to do this, but I think the concern is high enough among some of these witnesses that -- you know, that they need an answer on this issue sooner SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013843 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 252 of 267 2280 LCAVMAX8 talking about. MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, if I can make a suggestion, I think it makes the most sense to do this after we have disclosed the witness list and then we can confer. THE COURT: Right. So do that. And then confer and then you tell me, Mr. Everdell, when would you like to put in -- MR. EVERDELL: One moment, your Honor. I think if we can do it by Monday, that would be fine for the defense, if that works for the government. THE COURT: So Monday. If you're in agreement, you'll put in a submission. If you're in disagreement, the defense will move on Monday and I'll hear from the government on -- MS. MOE: Wednesday, your Honor? THE COURT: So I suppose we might be looking at this application with respect to witnesses on Thursday. MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. If I could just have one moment to confer on timing. THE COURT: Yes. MS. MOE: Your Honor, would Wednesday at noon be acceptable? If the Court would like additional time -- THE COURT: That's fine. MR. EVERDELL: Your Honor, I'm sorry to do this, but I think the concern is high enough among some of these witnesses that -- you know, that they need an answer on this issue sooner SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016468 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 253 of 267 2281 LCAVMAX8 rather than later. THE COURT: Well, then it should have been raised sooner rather than later. You're asking for Monday; they can have to noon on Wednesday. I'll then have the papers briefed by noon on Wednesday. MR. EVERDELL: Okay. We can also back up the schedule, your Honor. We can have it done by -- we'll do it Sunday. And then if that backs it up for a day, that will make a difference for the defense, your Honor, if we have our papers Sunday. THE COURT: Okay. Sunday to Tuesday? MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. MS. STERNHEIM: Thank you. THE COURT: To be clear, I don't imagine you'll get resolution from me until -- MR. EVERDELL: I understand. THE COURT: -- Wednesday. MR. EVERDELL: Yes, I understand, your Honor. THE COURT: And I can't guarantee what time that will be. MR. EVERDELL: Yes. I understand. THE COURT: And again, if this is a significant issue, it should have been raised earlier if you wanted earlier resolution. You're looking at Wednesday evening, at the earliest, resolution. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013844 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 253 of 267 2281 LCAVMAX8 rather than later. THE COURT: Well, then it should have been raised sooner rather than later. You're asking for Monday; they can have to noon on Wednesday. I'll then have the papers briefed by noon on Wednesday. MR. EVERDELL: Okay. We can also back up the schedule, your Honor. We can have it done by -- we'll do it Sunday. And then if that backs it up for a day, that will make a difference for the defense, your Honor, if we have our papers Sunday. THE COURT: Okay. Sunday to Tuesday? MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. MS. STERNHEIM: Thank you. THE COURT: To be clear, I don't imagine you'll get resolution from me until -- MR. EVERDELL: I understand. THE COURT: -- Wednesday. MR. EVERDELL: Yes, I understand, your Honor. THE COURT: And I can't guarantee what time that will be. MR. EVERDELL: Yes. I understand. THE COURT: And again, if this is a significant issue, it should have been raised earlier if you wanted earlier resolution. You're looking at Wednesday evening, at the earliest, resolution. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016469 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 254 of 267 2282 LCAVMAX8 1 MR. EVERDELL: Yes, your Honor. I think the conferral should work out. I'm confident we can reach some agreement on this. 2 THE COURT: That's fine. And authority and support. 3 Obviously I was not -- I broke no ground in permitting anonymity with respect to the witnesses who have testified. As I said, that that ruling, that's well-tread territory. Even if there's agreement, I would look for authority to make sure that it's permissible. 4 MR. EVERDELL: Understood, your Honor. 5 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. We'll look into the issue. I don't know who the witnesses are, what the basis would be, but we'll thoroughly examine it and make sure to apprise the Court whether there's a basis or not. We'll certainly address that in our briefing. 6 With respect to those defense witnesses or, I should say, all of the defense witnesses, we just want to confirm that they will also be subject to Rule 615, your Honor. 7 MR. EVERDELL: None of them have any plans to stay in the courtroom, your Honor, as far as we know. They are going to be in and out. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Yes. 11 MS. MENNINGER: Very briefly, your Honor. This is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 254 of 267 2282 LCAVMAX8 1 MR. EVERDELL: Yes, your Honor. I think the conferral should work out. I'm confident we can reach some agreement on this. 2 THE COURT: That's fine. And authority and support. 3 Obviously I was not -- I broke no ground in permitting anonymity with respect to the witnesses who have testified. As I said, that that ruling, that's well-tread territory. Even if there's agreement, I would look for authority to make sure that it's permissible. 4 MR. EVERDELL: Understood, your Honor. 5 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. We'll look into the issue. I don't know who the witnesses are, what the basis would be, but we'll thoroughly examine it and make sure to apprise the Court whether there's a basis or not. We'll certainly address that in our briefing. 6 With respect to those defense witnesses or, I should say, all of the defense witnesses, we just want to confirm that they will also be subject to Rule 615, your Honor. 7 MR. EVERDELL: None of them have any plans to stay in the courtroom, your Honor, as far as we know. They are going to be in and out. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Yes. 11 MS. MENNINGER: Very briefly, your Honor. This is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016470 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 255 of 267 2283 LCAVMAX8 1 something I've conferred with the government about a few times, 2 including as of the last three days, I think once a day. 3 With respect to defense Exhibits J-8/9 and Defense Exhibit J-15 -- 4 5 THE COURT: Oddly, I remember them. 6 MS. MENNINGER: We all do. And I've been asking 7 for -- I submitted it with redactions that I thought were 8 appropriate. The government has said several times that they 9 thought they might have one or two more redactions. I've been 10 asking for those. I believe those were admitted in evidence a 11 week ago Wednesday, so nine days ago. 12 I think that they should be made publicly available. 13 The government has said, Well, let's do it next week, when 14 we're doing videos and things like that. 15 Frankly, I think the time for giving more redactions 16 has come and gone. And if they have any more, I'd ask that 17 they submit them to the Court by this evening so the Court can 18 rule on those additional redactions. Because I submitted them 19 with redactions in the first place, and I think I've been 20 getting requests from the media for those exhibits. I 21 obviously don't respond to the press, but I think it's an 22 indicia that they are interested in making whatever is going to 23 be publicly available happen sooner rather than later. 24 MS. MOE: Your Honor, I spoke with Ms. Sternheim this 25 morning about all the pending redaction issues. There are a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013846 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 255 of 267 2283 LCAVMAX8 1 something I've conferred with the government about a few times, 2 including as of the last three days, I think once a day. 3 With respect to defense Exhibits J-8/9 and Defense Exhibit J-15 -- 4 5 THE COURT: Oddly, I remember them. 6 MS. MENNINGER: We all do. And I've been asking 7 for -- I submitted it with redactions that I thought were 8 appropriate. The government has said several times that they 9 thought they might have one or two more redactions. I've been 10 asking for those. I believe those were admitted in evidence a 11 week ago Wednesday, so nine days ago. 12 I think that they should be made publicly available. 13 The government has said, Well, let's do it next week, when 14 we're doing videos and things like that. 15 Frankly, I think the time for giving more redactions 16 has come and gone. And if they have any more, I'd ask that 17 they submit them to the Court by this evening so the Court can 18 rule on those additional redactions. Because I submitted them 19 with redactions in the first place, and I think I've been 20 getting requests from the media for those exhibits. I 21 obviously don't respond to the press, but I think it's an 22 indicia that they are interested in making whatever is going to 23 be publicly available happen sooner rather than later. 24 MS. MOE: Your Honor, I spoke with Ms. Sternheim this 25 morning about all the pending redaction issues. There are a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016471 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 256 of 267 2284 LCAVMAX8 1 number of exhibits, both defense exhibits and government exhibits, that need additional redactions. And we agreed over 2 the break we would work diligently to resolve the full slate of pending redactions issues. We don't understand the particular 3 urgency with respect to these exhibits. 4 Ms. Menninger is right, that she did email the government last night in the evening while, as the Court is aware, we were tending to other matters. I don't understand 5 the particular urgency with respect to these exhibits. And again, we conferred with the defense this morning to confirm they would resolve all the pending redaction issues over the 6 weekend. That seems entirely reasonable, given how many redaction issues we'll be resolving. 7 We're still waiting to hear from the defense on a number of redactions and we'll work together on that issue. I don't see the need for a fire drill redaction resolution this 8 evening; and so I think the proposal we discussed this morning is reasonable. We're going to get those issued resolved in full. 9 THE COURT: We'll get all of that done this weekend. Thank you. 10 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: The attorney-client privilege issue. 12 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I think we very well may be able to reach some type of stipulation, as your Honor SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013847 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 256 of 267 2284 LCAVMAX8 1 number of exhibits, both defense exhibits and government exhibits, that need additional redactions. And we agreed over 2 the break we would work diligently to resolve the full slate of pending redactions issues. We don't understand the particular 3 urgency with respect to these exhibits. 4 Ms. Menninger is right, that she did email the government last night in the evening while, as the Court is aware, we were tending to other matters. I don't understand 5 the particular urgency with respect to these exhibits. And again, we conferred with the defense this morning to confirm they would resolve all the pending redaction issues over the weekend. That seems entirely reasonable, given how many redaction issues we'll be resolving. 6 We're still waiting to hear from the defense on a number of redactions and we'll work together on that issue. I don't see the need for a fire drill redaction resolution this evening; and so I think the proposal we discussed this morning is reasonable. We're going to get those issued resolved in full. 7 THE COURT: We'll get all of that done this weekend. Thank you. 8 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: The attorney-client privilege issue. 10 MS. MENNINGER: Your Honor, I think we very well may be able to reach some type of stipulation, as your Honor SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016472 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 257 of 267 2285 LCAVMAX8 suggested. I think in the press of business over the last 24 hours, that has not yet been discussed between the two sides. MS. MOE: That's correct, your Honor. We haven't had a chance to confer about that issue. We have begun discussing that internally and are thinking through that carefully. We're not in a position to make a representation about our position at this juncture, but that's very much top of mind and we'll be working diligently on that issue over the break. THE COURT: Okay. MS. MENNINGER: And just as a preview, your Honor, there may be some others like that. As your Honor is aware, things came up during the course of testimony, and we will confer with the government about that with respect to other attorneys as well. MS. MOE: I'm sorry, your Honor. I'm not sure I'm following that. MS. MENNINGER: There are other matters that may give rise to the need for attorney testimony or probably more likely a stipulation about similar issues. And we would like to confer with the government first before briefing them. But I wouldn't -- our witness list may have other attorneys' names on them that have an asterisk by it saying subject to briefing and approval by the Court. I don't want anyone to believe we haven't understood the Court's prior statements on this topic. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013848 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 257 of 267 2285 LCAVMAX8 suggested. I think in the press of business over the last 24 hours, that has not yet been discussed between the two sides. MS. MOE: That's correct, your Honor. We haven't had a chance to confer about that issue. We have begun discussing that internally and are thinking through that carefully. We're not in a position to make a representation about our position at this juncture, but that's very much top of mind and we'll be working diligently on that issue over the break. THE COURT: Okay. MS. MENNINGER: And just as a preview, your Honor, there may be some others like that. As your Honor is aware, things came up during the course of testimony, and we will confer with the government about that with respect to other attorneys as well. MS. MOE: I'm sorry, your Honor. I'm not sure I'm following that. MS. MENNINGER: There are other matters that may give rise to the need for attorney testimony or probably more likely a stipulation about similar issues. And we would like to confer with the government first before briefing them. But I wouldn't -- our witness list may have other attorneys' names on them that have an asterisk by it saying subject to briefing and approval by the Court. I don't want anyone to believe we haven't understood the Court's prior statements on this topic. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 258 of 267 2286 LCAVMAX8 1 It would be something we speak with the government 2 about and brief if we believe that the testimony elicited 3 during the government's case would give rise to such testimony 4 from any other attorney. 5 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 6 We'd be happy to confer with the defense about any of 7 these issues. 8 Our view remains the same as it has been throughout 9 this case, which is that there's no basis for calling 10 plaintiffs' attorneys as defense witnesses. There's no basis 11 for waiving attorney-client privilege. And the Court has been 12 very clear that that issue should be briefed in full before any 13 witnesses along those lines should be called. But, again, 14 we're happy to confer with the defense about that. 15 THE COURT: Okay. You'll confer. 16 The one that's been teed up is where there's an 17 email -- 18 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: -- between you all and which it appears, 20 at least on the face of the email, that counsel made a 21 disclosure. 22 MS. MENNINGER: That's similar to other issues, your 23 Honor. 24 THE COURT: It's in that context that I've encouraged 25 a stipulation as to what was relayed to the government. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 258 of 267 2286 LCAVMAX8 1 It would be something we speak with the government 2 about and brief if we believe that the testimony elicited 3 during the government's case would give rise to such testimony 4 from any other attorney. 5 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 6 We'd be happy to confer with the defense about any of 7 these issues. 8 Our view remains the same as it has been throughout 9 this case, which is that there's no basis for calling 10 plaintiffs' attorneys as defense witnesses. There's no basis 11 for waiving attorney-client privilege. And the Court has been 12 very clear that that issue should be briefed in full before any 13 witnesses along those lines should be called. But, again, 14 we're happy to confer with the defense about that. 15 THE COURT: Okay. You'll confer. 16 The one that's been teed up is where there's an 17 email -- 18 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: -- between you all and which it appears, 20 at least on the face of the email, that counsel made a 21 disclosure. 22 MS. MENNINGER: That's similar to other issues, your 23 Honor. 24 THE COURT: It's in that context that I've encouraged 25 a stipulation as to what was relayed to the government. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016474 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 259 of 267 2287 LCAVMAX8 Because I think -- as I said, I think that doesn't -- there's a basis for it in the email; it doesn't require wading into attorney-client privilege issues; and I think it gives the defense what it's looking for, as would an inquiry, which would be limited, into what the attorney said to the client. I haven't come to rest on how that's resolved, but I've indicated I think it's a close call in light of the email I've seen. MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: So you'll confer. MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. THE COURT: I have briefing currently on that issue. So if you don't reach resolution, then I'll either -- I'll resolve or tell you what additional steps I need in order to resolve. If there are other issues that are similar, we should probably talk about timing for briefing -- MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: -- following conferral. MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. Is there a particular date upon which the Court would like to receive briefing from the parties about any additional privilege-related issues? THE COURT: I'm fine for it to be discussed and then fully briefed again sometime on Wednesday, if that works. MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013850 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 259 of 267 2287 LCAVMAX8 Because I think -- as I said, I think that doesn't -- there's a basis for it in the email; it doesn't require wading into attorney-client privilege issues; and I think it gives the defense what it's looking for, as would an inquiry, which would be limited, into what the attorney said to the client. I haven't come to rest on how that's resolved, but I've indicated I think it's a close call in light of the email I've seen. MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: So you'll confer. MS. MENNINGER: Yes, your Honor. MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. THE COURT: I have briefing currently on that issue. So if you don't reach resolution, then I'll either -- I'll resolve or tell you what additional steps I need in order to resolve. If there are other issues that are similar, we should probably talk about timing for briefing -- MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. THE COURT: -- following conferral. MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. Is there a particular date upon which the Court would like to receive briefing from the parties about any additional privilege-related issues? THE COURT: I'm fine for it to be discussed and then fully briefed again sometime on Wednesday, if that works. MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016475 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 260 of 267 2288 LCAVMAX8 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MS. MENNINGER: I think so, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: All right. I'm just looking at the calendar. The defense case begins on the 16th. We have the 16th, the 17th. We'll do the charging conference on the 18th, if the defense case continues into the next week. 4 But let me just encourage -- given this break that we're going on and -- here's just the one thing I want to say. I'll hear from you, but I want -- if the defense were to rest on the 17th, for example, then I will expect closings, absent a rebuttal case, on the 20th. Everybody agree with that? 5 MS. STERNHEIM: Yes, Judge. 6 But I think it's highly unlikely that we will complete it on Friday, and I would ask the Court to take that into consideration. 7 THE COURT: Okay. So let's say you rest on the 20th, Ms. Sternheim. 8 MS. STERNHEIM: That is our anticipation. 9 THE COURT: Okay. So then we would anticipate closings on the 21st; correct? 10 MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, we would like to at least discuss our concerns about a jury deliberating one day prior to a Christmas holiday. I think that given that, as was Thanksgiving, Christmas this year is particularly celebratory since people were not able to do that last year. 11 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013851 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 260 of 267 2288 LCAVMAX8 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MS. MENNINGER: I think so, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: All right. I'm just looking at the calendar. The defense case begins on the 16th. We have the 16th, the 17th. We'll do the charging conference on the 18th, if the defense case continues into the next week. 4 5 But let me just encourage -- given this break that we're going on and -- here's just the one thing I want to say. I'll hear from you, but I want -- if the defense were to rest on the 17th, for example, then I will expect closings, absent a rebuttal case, on the 20th. Everybody agree with that? 6 7 MS. STERNHEIM: Yes, Judge. 8 But I think it's highly unlikely that we will complete it on Friday, and I would ask the Court to take that into consideration. 9 10 THE COURT: Okay. So let's say you rest on the 20th, Ms. Sternheim. 11 MS. STERNHEIM: That is our anticipation. 12 13 THE COURT: Okay. So then we would anticipate closings on the 21st; correct? 14 MS. STERNHEIM: Judge, we would like to at least discuss our concerns about a jury deliberating one day prior to a Christmas holiday. I think that given that, as was Thanksgiving, Christmas this year is particularly celebratory since people were not able to do that last year. 15 16 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016476 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 261 of 267 2289 LCAVMAX8 Our concern is that the jury might feel we don't want to come back and would rush to judgment in a case that we know they were prepared to be here until the middle of January. And they are already getting some time off. They may be disinclined to want to come back. And that could inure to the disadvantage of both parties, I understand. But I think we would not want to be in a position where the jury basically had one day prior to Christmas holiday, and I would ask the Court to be mindful of that, as I am sure you are. And that was one of the reasons why early on when we were hopeful that we could begin this case earlier because of our concern that it was going to bump up, now clearly we are way ahead of what the schedule is. But I would ask the Court to take into consideration that concern that we have. THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Moe? MS. MOE: Your Honor, with respect to the timing of deliberations, I think the request on the timing of deliberations is, I think, at best, premature because we don't know how long the defense case will be; and so I don't think the Court needs to reach that now. But as a preview, if we end up in a situation in which the defense rests during the week of the 20th, I think we should be respectful of the jury's time. There's no reason for the jury not to be permitted to deliberate. I think it would SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 261 of 267 2289 LCAVMAX8 1 Our concern is that the jury might feel we don't want 2 to come back and would rush to judgment in a case that we know 3 they were prepared to be here until the middle of January. And 4 they are already getting some time off. They may be 5 disinclined to want to come back. And that could inure to the 6 disadvantage of both parties, I understand. 7 8 But I think we would not want to be in a position 9 where the jury basically had one day prior to Christmas 10 holiday, and I would ask the Court to be mindful of that, as I 11 am sure you are. And that was one of the reasons why early on 12 when we were hopeful that we could begin this case earlier 13 because of our concern that it was going to bump up, now 14 clearly we are way ahead of what the schedule is. But I would 15 ask the Court to take into consideration that concern that we 16 have. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Moe? 18 MS. MOE: Your Honor, with respect to the timing of 19 deliberations, I think the request on the timing of 20 deliberations is, I think, at best, premature because we don't 21 know how long the defense case will be; and so I don't think 22 the Court needs to reach that now. 23 But as a preview, if we end up in a situation in which 24 the defense rests during the week of the 20th, I think we 25 should be respectful of the jury's time. There's no reason for 26 the jury not to be permitted to deliberate. I think it would SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016477 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 262 of 267 2290 LCAVMAX8 1 be a hardship to keep them indefinitely and have them come back 2 and wait a week to deliberate on a case that's ready to be 3 adjudicated. 4 So, again, I don't think the Court needs to reach this 5 issue given the timing; but if the jury was prepared to sit 6 this entire week and hear evidence, there's no reason they 7 couldn't also be here and be deliberating. I think we should 8 be respectful of the jury's time. And dismissing them for yet 9 another extremely lengthy break, I think, runs contrary to the 10 efficient way the Court has run this trial. And if this case 11 can be resolved -- 12 THE COURT: Well, thank you. That's not what they 13 usually call it. 14 MS. MOE: And I think, you know, the best way to be 15 respectful of the jurors' time is to let them have the case. 16 THE COURT: Okay. It's premature. We'll see where we 17 are. My thinking was -- I think we'll see where we are. 18 I suppose my point was since we're doing the charging 19 conference on the 18th, I do want counsel to be prepared to 20 turn to closings the day following the completion of the 21 evidence. We'll see where that is and the like. But I don't 22 want to keep starting and stopping. So we'll use our time, but 23 I'm mindful of your concern, Ms. Sternheim, and we'll see where 24 we are. 25 MS. STERNHEIM: I would just like to add that we SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013853 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 262 of 267 2290 LCAVMAX8 1 be a hardship to keep them indefinitely and have them come back 2 and wait a week to deliberate on a case that's ready to be 3 adjudicated. 4 So, again, I don't think the Court needs to reach this 5 issue given the timing; but if the jury was prepared to sit 6 this entire week and hear evidence, there's no reason they 7 couldn't also be here and be deliberating. I think we should 8 be respectful of the jury's time. And dismissing them for yet 9 another extremely lengthy break, I think, runs contrary to the 10 efficient way the Court has run this trial. And if this case 11 can be resolved -- 12 THE COURT: Well, thank you. That's not what they 13 usually call it. 14 MS. MOE: And I think, you know, the best way to be 15 respectful of the jurors' time is to let them have the case. 16 THE COURT: Okay. It's premature. We'll see where we 17 are. My thinking was -- I think we'll see where we are. 18 I suppose my point was since we're doing the charging 19 conference on the 18th, I do want counsel to be prepared to 20 turn to closings the day following the completion of the 21 evidence. We'll see where that is and the like. But I don't 22 want to keep starting and stopping. So we'll use our time, but 23 I'm mindful of your concern, Ms. Sternheim, and we'll see where 24 we are. 25 MS. STERNHEIM: I would just like to add that we SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016478 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 263 of 267 2291 LCAVMAX8 1 anticipate that our case will run into the Monday. The government has already noticed a rebuttal case. That means that the closings would not be until Tuesday, and the charge may very well not be until Wednesday. Then we go into two days off. To put the jury in a posture where they have basically four hours to deliberate before the holiday season begins is very dangerous and that's why I'm asking the Court to consider that. 9 THE COURT: I do understand the concern. And we'll see where we are. 11 My admonishment is to -- what I don't want to hear is if the evidence closes on Monday, that you don't want to do your closings until the 27th. That's definitely not going to happen. 15 MS. STERNHEIM: I am not saying that, Judge. I think we all understand what the concerns are. And we will be very judicious in our attempt to complete this timely. But that being said, there is still logistical things that, in our estimation, will push this beyond Tuesday, and then we have the situation of the holiday. But we've raised it with the Court. I think the parties are mindful and we're not doing anything to delay. We just are concerned about this jury having ample time, without any external pressures, to deliberate. 23 time, without any external pressures, to deliberate. 24 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 25 Just to provide the Court with some additional SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013854 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 263 of 267 2291 LCAVMAX8 1 anticipate that our case will run into the Monday. The government has already noticed a rebuttal case. That means that the closings would not be until Tuesday, and the charge may very well not be until Wednesday. Then we go into two days off. To put the jury in a posture where they have basically four hours to deliberate before the holiday season begins is very dangerous and that's why I'm asking the Court to consider that. 9 THE COURT: I do understand the concern. And we'll see where we are. 11 My admonishment is to -- what I don't want to hear is if the evidence closes on Monday, that you don't want to do your closings until the 27th. That's definitely not going to happen. 15 MS. STERNHEIM: I am not saying that, Judge. I think we all understand what the concerns are. And we will be very judicious in our attempt to complete this timely. But that being said, there is still logistical things that, in our estimation, will push this beyond Tuesday, and then we have the situation of the holiday. But we've raised it with the Court. I think the parties are mindful and we're not doing anything to delay. We just are concerned about this jury having ample time, without any external pressures, to deliberate. 24 MS. MOE: Yes, your Honor. 25 Just to provide the Court with some additional SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016479 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 264 of 267 2292 LCAVMAX8 information about the rebuttal case, we have noticed -- we have noticed a potential rebuttal expert. Whether or not we end up calling the expert we can't determine without seeing the defense case first. But that's the full scope of what we've noticed at this juncture. And I'm not sure whether or not we would call that expert. It would depend entirely on the defense case. So that's the scope of what we're discussing. Again, with respect to timing, we'll take it as it comes. And I think the Court has noted that this issue is premature, but we just wanted to assure the Court the government will be prepared to close the day after the conclusion of the defense case and would very much like to move forward. With respect to closings, we did want to just preview that -- and we plan to work with the defense on this issue. But we wanted to start thinking ahead the mechanics of how closings would work, given the fact that there are sealed exhibits and some public exhibits. And so we've started thinking through that, but wanted to just flag that that's a mechanical issue that we'll want to work through with the defense so that everyone has an opportunity to present what they need to without any hiccups, and also so that the jury can see exhibits without them being shown publicly. And so we'll work with the defense on that choreography to make sure that that runs smoothly. And we'll SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013855 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 264 of 267 2292 LCAVMAX8 information about the rebuttal case, we have noticed -- we have noticed a potential rebuttal expert. Whether or not we end up calling the expert we can't determine without seeing the defense case first. But that's the full scope of what we've noticed at this juncture. And I'm not sure whether or not we would call that expert. It would depend entirely on the defense case. So that's the scope of what we're discussing. Again, with respect to timing, we'll take it as it comes. And I think the Court has noted that this issue is premature, but we just wanted to assure the Court the government will be prepared to close the day after the conclusion of the defense case and would very much like to move forward. With respect to closings, we did want to just preview that -- and we plan to work with the defense on this issue. But we wanted to start thinking ahead the mechanics of how closings would work, given the fact that there are sealed exhibits and some public exhibits. And so we've started thinking through that, but wanted to just flag that that's a mechanical issue that we'll want to work through with the defense so that everyone has an opportunity to present what they need to without any hiccups, and also so that the jury can see exhibits without them being shown publicly. And so we'll work with the defense on that choreography to make sure that that runs smoothly. And we'll SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016480 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 265 of 267 2293 LCAVMAX8 1 raise with the Court when we return from the break, I think, 2 any issues that we need to flag about those mechanics so that 3 it goes smoothly, if that's all right, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Yes, of course. 5 And to the extent the AV folks can be helpful if 6 there's something you want to propose, I'm sure that they'll 7 make themselves available for that. 8 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Anything else? 10 MS. MOE: Not from the government, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Anything else? 12 MR. EVERDELL: Nothing from the defense, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 So I will see everyone Thursday at 8:45 a.m. 15 MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. 16 (Adjourned to December 16, 2021 at 8:45 a.m.) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013856 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 265 of 267 2293 LCAVMAX8 raise with the Court when we return from the break, I think, any issues that we need to flag about those mechanics so that it goes smoothly, if that's all right, your Honor. THE COURT: Yes, of course. And to the extent the AV folks can be helpful if there's something you want to propose, I'm sure that they'll make themselves available for that. MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. THE COURT: Anything else? MS. MOE: Not from the government, your Honor. THE COURT: Anything else? MR. EVERDELL: Nothing from the defense, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. So I will see everyone Thursday at 8:45 a.m. MS. MOE: Thank you, your Honor. (Adjourned to December 16, 2021 at 8:45 a.m.) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016481 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 266 of 267 2294 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Examination of: Page 3 WILLIAM BROWN 4 Direct By Mr. Rohrbach . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2042 5 ANNIE FARMER 6 Direct By Ms. Pomerantz . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2049 7 Cross By Ms. Menninger . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2102 8 Redirect By Ms. Pomerantz . . . . . . . . . . . . 2213 9 DAVID JAMES MULLIGAN 10 Direct By Ms. Pomerantz . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2231 11 Cross By Ms. Sternheim . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2242 12 Redirect By Ms. Pomerantz . . . . . . . . . . . . 2245 13 JANICE SWAIN 14 Direct By Ms. Pomerantz . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2247 15 Cross By Ms. Menninger . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2259 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013857 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 266 of 267 2294 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Examination of: Page 3 WILLIAM BROWN 4 Direct By Mr. Rohrbach . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2042 5 ANNIE FARMER 6 Direct By Ms. Pomerantz . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2049 7 Cross By Ms. Menninger . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2102 8 Redirect By Ms. Pomerantz . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2213 9 DAVID JAMES MULLIGAN 10 Direct By Ms. Pomerantz . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2231 11 Cross By Ms. Sternheim . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2242 12 Redirect By Ms. Pomerantz . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2245 13 JANICE SWAIN 14 Direct By Ms. Pomerantz . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2247 15 Cross By Ms. Menninger . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2259 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016482 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 267 of 267 2295 1 2 Exhibit No. Received 3 52A, 52D, 52E, 52F, 52G, and 52H . . . . . .2040 4 601 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2063 5 603 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2064 6 604 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2066 7 102 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2070 8 103 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2091 9 10 Exhibit No. Received 11 AF1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2124 12 AF9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2168 13 AF-12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2190 14 AF-14 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2208 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00013858 --- PAGE BREAK --- Case 1:20-cr-00330-PAE Document 759 Filed 08/10/22 Page 267 of 267 2295 1 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS 2 Exhibit No. Received 3 52A, 52D, 52E, 52F, 52G, and 52H . . . . . .2040 4 601 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2063 5 603 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2064 6 604 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2066 7 102 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2070 8 103 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2091 9 10 Exhibit No. DEFENDANT EXHIBITS Received 11 AF1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2124 12 AF9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2168 13 AF-12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2190 14 AF-14 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2208 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 DOJ-OGR-00016483